This transcript is for a free-form discussion which may contain spoilers for all the works discussed in the main episode(s) related to this Epilogue.

N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and this is the epilogue for “Virtual Vandals” by Diane Duane, book one of Tom Clancy’s Net Force Explorers. Uh, so who liked this one, I really didn’t. Um, if you heard the main episode or checked out the main episode, uh, dear audience, you know that [laughs] um.

N: Yeah, [laughs, so - um, now that you’ve had, what, two, three months to digest it.

R: Uhuh.

N: How are you feeling?

R: Um, I still don’t like it.

N: Ok. That’s fair.

R: Like - like I [sighs], like in mostly - ‘cause like here’s a space I can say a little bit of what I said in the written review, like the stuff that isn’t directly related to the trauma, like I know - I know I talked about like the slang being weird, like - um, ughhhhh. And, it just - and I - it feels like it was leaning really, really hard into the gimmicks, and I know - so I know when you’ve got like an ensemble cast, and you’ve got a short book, it can be hard to highlight all of them, but if we contrast it with something like, say, “Animorphs,”...

N: ...Which did not highlight all of them in episode one.

R: It did not.

N: Er, episode one - book one. [clears throat].

R: But it gave enough that like, eh, like the very first thing we learn is like literally - like scene one, Rachel and Jake are cousins, Cassie kind of likes Jake. Marco is Jake’s best friend. Tobias is someone that Jake rescued from being bullied. Boom, done. And we can slowly fill in more personalities, but I know why they’re in a group, why they would have been together for that individual incident, even if they, before this moment, didn’t really hang out.

N: And...

R: ...like...

N: ...Yeah, and I think...

R: ...and it gives that grounding and I didn’t feel like I got that grounding from this series. It was like, “What’s going on? What’s this organization? Ok, fine, they go to the same school, but like, there’s people who go to the same school as me that I didn’t talk to in four years in high school. So, I don’t know...

N: ...Well no, ‘cause you weren’t in a paramilitary team program with...

R: ...Right, but I don’t know why there’s a para - and it just - it - it - like and I’m sure the additional books will fill out some of that more, and if this is the genre you like, I’m sure it’s a pretty ok example of the genre, I just was lost, and confused, and had difficulty getting into it, and when the thing that was kind of, felt like it was explained the most, is “I understand ‘90’s slang,” and I was like, “Cool. Author, you’re literally in the ‘90’s. I’m not worried about *your* ability to know ‘90’s slang,” and no like - I’m not gonna say no one reads books, reference books of slang from prior decades, but it’s a very, very odd way to get us to relate to this character, because it felt like the book wanted to use the slang that the people reading it when it came out would know, and they didn’t have a way to do that other than using that slang and reinforcing that it was old. ‘Cause like, I use bee’s knees, and I like that term, and it’s from the 1920’s, but I knew bee’s knees and vaguely what it meant, also cat’s pajamas, long before I knew that they were from the 1920’s, ‘cause they just kind of like, made it into the early ‘2000’s when I started using them, and if you’d done something like that, where like, pick - pick a couple of ‘90’s things and just say, “These ones made it to 20-whenever, when this is set.” That - that would feel to me like, more natural and less like “I gotta make sure that I use slang the kids use because uh, I’m throwing VR at them and don’t wanna spook them.” like.

(4:12)

N: [laughs]

R: [laughs]

N: Oh, my...

R: ...That’s...

N: ...god.

R: That’s how this - on reflection, that’s what this feels like it was trying to do. ‘Cause I think when we recorded the episode, I didn’t know what it was trying to do. This is my current theory on the attempt, and I don’t think it worked. It did not for me at least.

N: Ok, so the funny thing is, now we did talk about this in the episode, I have - I - I love this series. I love...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...the Net Force Explorers.

R: You were like, “We should talk about these,” and I’m like, “I’ve literally never heard of them, but ok.

N: [laughs] Uh, yeah, and it - the funny thing is I was reading these like a lot in high school, but that never made it to your awareness I guess?

R: Nope.

N: But anyways.

R: You just took a tub to the library and came back with a tub, and I never knew what was in...

N: [laughs]

R: ...the tub of books you were reading.

N: Well, that’s fair. Um, yeah, ‘cause I - ‘cause you didn’t know...

R: ...Oh I’m not, uh, audience I’m not kidding. Literal - literally a tub. [laughs] Sometimes, at least.

N: [laughs] I - no, it was not a tub. It was a giant...

R: ...Oh sorry….

N: ...uh hiking...

R: ...in your room you had a giant...

N: ...level Jansport backpack...

R: ...tub also, so...

N: ...to be fair.

R: But you’re like...

N: ...And I went several times a week. I did in my room have a giant plastic tub of my current library books...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...but that was just so they didn’t get mixed up with anything else, including just the rest of the...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...house. So - but yeah - no - so it’s funny because, my reading experience of this series, but initially and also on the reread that we did, uh, for the podcast...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...is almost exactly the opposite. So, when it comes to establishing characters, I don’t think this book did the same thing as the “Animorphs,” I think it had a different approach that had a similar feel for it to me. So, instead of up front getting, “We are a group,” instead we get kind of this person who is in a group and we see him kind of very naturally interacting with other members in that group, in ways that feel like people. “Animorphs” is actually one of the very rare series for me that does the up front, [artificially upbeat voice] “Hi, we’re gonna talk to you about how we are a group, and we’re gonna just lay out a bunch of things that you absolutely will - could have gotten from other world building if we had chosen to go that route, but we decided we weren’t gonna show you, we were gonna tell you.” [upbeat voice ends]

(6:35)

R: Uh huh, but it works.

N: And I think - and I think - but it works because it has a narrator voice who specifically says, “Hi, I’m telling you the history of what happened for like record keeping and things not being lost and accurate history sake, and so I’m going to tell you these things because it’s my job to tell you these things,” that’s why it works. In - I think that’s the difference, personally between showing...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and telling your connections, and I generally don’t like books as much that tell you the connections, and so “Animorphs” is the exception for me because they're so upfront about it that it reads more like that you’re being told a story by somebody who is - who is giving you details that you wouldn’t automatically have whereas, uh, Net Force Explorers is much more of like any other book without a narrator where they’re showing you these interactions, and it just so happens that the books - I think - I think part of maybe why it feels different to you, is because they are so short and they are like “Animorph” level short, you don’t have in book one this giant long built up world, but to be fair in “Animorphs” we didn’t either. We were just told upfront, “Hey there’s - here are some things you’re not gonna see on camera. They exist, trust me,” like almost in those exact words. “They exist, please believe me,” in Net Force Explorers, instead we get, “Hi, I’m a teenager. I’m in a teen’s - teen paramilitary in a digital, virtual reality, spy organization, and I am going to now like, I’m - I’m in third person, here’s you know, what’s happening with my thing that I experienced,” and I think it is also the difference between - and I - I think I said this in the episode too, and think this is also the difference between having a group of kids that are all a squad that all work together, versus just all being teenagers together in an organization that is kinda paramilitary and kind of a teen spy organization.

R: Yeah.

N: Spies don’t go around in packs. That’s how you get noticed. The only reason the Animorphs can do that is because they can turn into animals and so a pack of flies and a pack of school kids are not the same threat level awareness for anybody, and so they can afford to go in as a squad of six, because they don’t look like a squad of six.

R: Yeah.

(9:12)

N: But you can’t do that as a paramilitary teen spy. [laughs] Like, that’s just not gonna happen.

R: Yeah.

N: So, I - I think that is a big part of it and I - I think that doesn’t mean you need to like it for those reasons, but I think that’s part of why it feels different is because it’s not the same thing, but it’s not trying to be and I think it is showing instead of telling, but I think when you show and it’s a shorter book and you don’t immediately read the next one, especially if you just stop after one, you don’t - you’re not gonna get the full word because you didn’t read the full world.

R: Sure, and like I don’t wanna punish a short book for not having full world building, like that’s - that’s not what I’m saying, it just felt like.

N: Yeah, no, I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying.

R: Yeah, it just...

N: ...But I do think that that’s part of what you’re experiencing.

R: ‘Cause, one...

N: ...And I - and I think also that for us, especially as people who kind of inhale and then exhale very, very large volumes very quickly, not just on - not just for the podcast, this is just us as readers in general, I think that when you read what is essentially the feel for us for like half of chapter one...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and stop, it’s not gonna feel good and it's’ not gonna feel complete, just because it’s...

R: ...Where as...

N: ...tiny...

R: ...for me nothing about the cover would have made me want to read this. Nothing about the blurb made me wanna read this. And then nothing in the book made me wanna read this, so like all around I - I...

N: ...It’s just not your thing...

R: ...did not pick this up separate from the podcast...

N: [laughs]

R: ...so I’m very confident in saying I would not have picked it up separate...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...from the podcast, ‘cause I missed the age range when it would have made sense for me to randomly pick this up, and I - I - I missed the age range where I’m gonna look at a - at a pick - at a book that’s under two hundred pages.

N: Your personal - the age range in your personal timeline, let’s just - let’s say that.

R: Yes, in my personal timeline I am not - like I’m not randomly saying, “You know what I need? A book that I can read in half an hour,” like I just, I’m not - for the podcast, I’m doing that, to review stuff, I’m doing that. But I usually want something that will last me longer than it takes to write a review. [laughs] So.

N: [laughs] Yeah, no that’s fair. Uh, also with the ‘90’s slang thing, I read this book very differently from you, including as a - as a teenager because I read the ‘90’s slang thing as kinda the way we treat like...

R: ...Right...

N: ...1920’s slang or 1800’s slang now. You don’t hear random phrases from the 1920’s or from the 1800’s without people explaining them to you, like that doesn’t hap[pen] - like if those phrases appear in a book now, they get an editorial.

(12:08)

R: Well, so - ok, so here’s...

N: ...And so to me this actually made it feel more real, because it feels like this is a futuristic book being written by the kids that are in the future and they’re explaining to us things that they don’t think we’ll have historical context for, even if as a reader it is our context now. Like to me as a teenager, that made this feel better.

R: So for me...

N: …’Cause it felt like it made sense now that they would use words that I knew, even though if it’s - if technology has progressed this far and we’re this far in the future, it wouldn’t make sense for those to be their vocabulary as much.

R: I think maybe what irked me is that it tried to have it both ways. Both that - it tried to do both that this group of girls that he’s trying, I think they were girls, but this group of popular people...

N: ...Uh, they weren’t all girls.

R: Ok, this group of popular people that he was trying to ingratiate himself - oh ok. No the group of - not - not...

N: ...Yeah, one girl...

R: ...the ones at his school, not the ones he ended up doing most of the plot with. Like, uh...

N: ...Yeah, wait...

R: ...he...

N: ...what?

R: Let me finish...

N: ...What group of girls...

R: ...He...

N: ...was he trying to get into?

R: Early on in the book, when he’s using a bunch of this slang, he was trying to relate to these popular people at his school, and they...

N: ...He was just trying to identify the rich people.

R: Right, so they were using all this slang in a very naturalistic way, and he was like, “Ahah, I can keep up with them because I have read a reference book,” like it had it both ways. It highlighted how ana[chronistic]...

N: ...Eh, but see that just feels like the movie “Mean Girls” to me.

R: [sighs]

N: That feels so normal. That is how people relate these things, like, that felt - that felt right, like, yeah, if you are trying to pretend you’re part of a group that you’re not part of, and they’re using like - especially like rich kids stereotypically...

R: ...Uhuh...

N: ...you know, more privileged kids that are reaching out into something to make it trendy, yeah, knowing what they’re even talking about because you’ve read a reference makes total sense.

R: Ok, I think I - so, to me just something about the combination of: they’re using slang it makes sense you’d be unfamiliar with if cliquey rich kids have decided to reach back a couple of decades for their words as a code, ok fine. I accept that that’s a thing. I also accept, nerdy kid read reference book. It’s the nerdy kid read reference book that happens to match exactly with what he needed for this missiage to - mission to ingratiate himself to this group of rich kids and he’d read the reference book before interacting with the rich kids, I know that happens but it felt so contrived.

N: That happened to me with the movie “Mean Girls”.

R: I...

N: ...Not even kidding. I saw that movie first, then I saw...

R: ...Mmhmm…

(15:04)

N: ...jokes about the language in it and the literal thought in my head at one point was, “Oh, ok. I’ve seen the movie that they’re talking about. I understand this. I’ve done my research ahead of time.” I think you just aren’t that person...

R: ...Yeah, but...

N: ...is the thing.

R: [sighs] I don’t know - I don’t know just something - something - ok fine, like if they were talking about a movie, and “Oh yes, I’ve also read that movie,” just the - I just - we can move away from this topic. I’m just expressing that for me this combination doesn’t fit.

N: No I’m saying it - I’m saying it makes sense for you, but I also just wanna throw that other perspective in there because if you are the kind of person to whom that kind of interaction makes sense, this book is gonna make sense. But if you’re the kinda person who’s listening to our conversation and going, “What?” and you’re with Robin...

R: ...I - I am...

N: ...then it might not.

R: Sure.

N: I - I just think it’s important to record both - both uh, experiences. I’m not saying you need to change your mind.

R: Absolutely, I just - I’m trying to say that “Yeah, I also read that dictionary,” isn’t quite the same thing as “ah yes, I have also seen that movie.”

N: Except it is for a teen spy that that’s his job is to research things that other people don’t know.

R: Ok. Alright, just...

N: ...I - I - I have that - I have experience in martial arts.

R: Ok.

N: Like, oh, yeah, I read - I read a book one time that did actually give me like some insight into this thing, and now I’m going into a class and someone is referencing that - that technique that I haven’t actually experienced in person, but now am getting to and I don't need the long involved technical explanation because I’ve read it already...

R: ...But...

N: ...because I look these things up for fun. Like seriously...

R: ...But you [sighs]...

N: ...that’s a thing that happens to people.

R: I know I just - it - it felt contrived to me.

N: It's not a thing that happens to you. That’s fair.

R: Yeah, it - it’s just, it’s not. I am much more often in the zone of “What do you mean” - someone saying to me, “What do you mean, why are you talking about that.” Like I...

N: [laughs]

R: ...I’m much more often out of step...

N: ...The other...

R: ...saying the thing that someone didn’t know was a thing and I’m like, “Well, so I’ve read,” I’m not used to the thing that I know jiving with what’s actually going on. And so it feels too contrived for him to have randomly done this research and then it’s useful like, right then. I don’t know, like maybe with an older character it’d be like, “Oh yeah, that book I read like ten years ago,” like, I don’t know it just, something about it felt too perfect and when I was already having trouble getting into the book, this didn’t help.

N: Gotcha, yeah. Ok. So moving away from - from that...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...what other thoughts...

R: [laughs]

(17:58)

N: ...do you have about maybe the - the concept, some of the technology or things like that?

R: Uh, I...

N: ...Or do you have any?

R: I liked “Snow Crash” better, and like I’m not saying this book has to be “Snow Crash”.

N: I don’t know what “Snow Crash” is.

R: Yeah, it’s - it’s a book that gave us the word “avatar” in a digital context.

N: Oh, meh. No, I’m kidding. [laughs].

R: I’m not saying everyone needs to go read “Snow Crash” but like, in a - it’s…

N: You just wanna read a different book.

R: I just, yeah literally, anything other than this book which - and I’ve gone on in the intervening months to read dozens of other books that aren’t this book and I’m perfectly content with that, uh [laughs].

N: Alright, well, if you like snapshot teen spies who, uh, have their - discover their own missions half the time and have support from their adults and superior officers, and back up when they need it and are fully functional and like, highschoolers, not like eleven...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...uh, and have fun missions in virtual reality, check this series out.

R: I will say that is a point in its favor, since you’ve mentioned that, like yeah, they’re not twelve. So like, I...

N: ...No, they're not...

R: ...I had no problem with the, “This is a teen spy book,” cool, on that. I like that.

N: Yeah.

R: I like that as a thing.

N: Yeah.

R: That’s good.

N: It’s a teen spy book based on adult military fiction.

R: Yeah.

N: That’s what it is.

R: Yeah, and I as...

N: ...I love it...

R: ...as we have...

N: ...I love this series...

R: ...commented before, if you’ve heard the discussion of “In Fury Born”, military fiction in general...

N: …[laughs] Robin doesn’t do well with military anything.

R: It’s just not...

N: ...It’s not their thing...

R: ...it’s not...

N: [laughs]

R: So when we go from a - a step beyond to, [artificially happy voice] “now kids are helping the military!” I’m like, “Come on. What? No. This isn’t...

N: ...Well...

R: ...this isn’t what I want.”

N: It - and - and I - I will - eventually we are going to get to reading some romance.

R: Mmhmm, oh and then I’ll...

N: …’Cause we really just haven't...

R: ...be great...

N: ...yet.

R: [laughs]

N: Yeah, and then I’ll just be like, “Ugh. Why..?”

R: [laughs]

N: It will be my turn.

R: [laughs]

N: We’ve just read a lot of sci-fi and we’ve read a lot of like, paramilitary and military fiction which Robin just...

R: ...Mmmh.

N: ...can’t deal with, but eventually we’ll get to the romance books and Robin will ask me about something and I’ll be like, “Mmh, I don’t know. I didn’t... care.”

R: And I’ll be like, “But this glance...

N: …”I don’t get it”...

R: ...it’s so meaningful. There’s the thing and the wordplay and the stuff,” and you’ll be like...

N: ...I’ll be like - I’ll be like, “I’ll be honest. My eyes glazed over in that paragraph, I couldn’t recite it if my life depended on it.”

R: I mean if you’ve already...

N: [laughs]

R: ...if you’ve already, um...

N: ...It happened a little bit in...

R: ...That’s what I was about to say about the “Old Kingdom”, because I was like, “Yeah, book five they’re getting together.” And you’re like, “What?”

N: And I was like, “Ok, that felt weirdly contrived Robin.”

R: And I’m like...

N: ...and Robin was like “No! They were headed there the whole time!” And I’m like, “I don’t...

(20:58)

R: ...And I’m like, “I spent years wondering if they got together after book three ended, and now I know!” like [laughs].

N: Yeah, so you know, eventually we’ll read some romance and it will be my turn, but.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Just don’t recommend sci-fi or - or anything tactical and strategic to Robin.

R: Don’t recommend military sci-fi to me. Like I’ll - I can like things that overlap with military sci-fi...

N: [laughs]

R: ...but if that’s the first description you reached for to tell me what the book is...

N: ...Give Robin a different rec.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: I mean, in the podcast sense, I’ll read whatever, uh, the whatever that I...

N: [laughs]

R: ...filled my six hundred book to-be-read pile with, doesn't really have a lot of military sci-fi on it.

N: Uh, I think it might be fun at some point - I had an idea, I’ll tell you later.

R: That’s fine.

N: Uh, ok. So, is there anything else? I feel like most of my thoughts made it into our original episode, just because I’ve read this series a lot, and over several years, and so even having two or three months to think about it, like this was not a - this was not a series that I’ve read periodically, like...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...I - I know these books pretty well. I don’t - I don’t know...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...that I have anything new to add, necessarily that I didn’t think at the time.

R: The one thing that I would say that like, when we first were trying to get all our notes in order to even do the episode, I was like, “Yeah, so it’s ‘Virtual Vandals’ by Diane Duane,” and you were like, “Who?” You were like, “Aren’t these by Tom Clancy?” and I was like...

N: Yeah, ‘cause it says Tom Clancy on every book.

R: And I was like, “Oh,” no it took me...

N: ...I can’t...

R: ...like half an hour googling to figure out who the actual author is.

N: Yeah, ‘cause if you’re trying to find the books you look up Tom Clancy.

R: Right. Nah it - it - it wasn’t easy but I did find it so we can give the person who wrote this volume proper credit, um, it - it’s - I mean um, like even some of the “Animorphs” books have ghost writers, like, it’s...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...it is a thing. A series like this, it makes sense that it wasn’t just one person who wrote it. And it makes even more sense that someone like Tom Clancy put their brand on this set of short books for um, teens. Uh.

N: Yeah.

R: Yep. I was - the - the pause was me briefly debating whether this could count as middle grade and it - it doesn’t. It’s got too much other stuff in it. But it’s like...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...middle grade length, with YA content.

N: Yeah. It’s a snapshot book.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Yeah, if you liked the “Animorph” length and the “Animorph” themes, I would argue...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...as this series goes on.

R: It makes sense...

N: ...Uh, and the, and the “Animorph”

R: ...to me that some of that would be in here...

N: ...tackling of social issues, and...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...the highlighting of social issues...

R: ...Hopefully...

N: ...but you like spy books….

R: ...Hopefully...

N: ...and you like mission books...

R: ...Hopefully...

N: ...then you’ll like this series...

R: ...this handles disability better than “Animorphs” did, ‘cause “Animorphs” took a loooong-ass time to do anything with the ableism that was just kinda sitting there. Like it...

(24:10)

N: …“Animorphs” spent a lot of time highlighting how ableist various races were.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And not really...

R: ...Not enough time...

N: ...pushing back against it?

R: Yeah, not enough saying...

N: ...They were like, “Look...

R: …”check your friends”...

N: ...how bad and ableist these are,” and not very much time saying, “and that’s a bad thing.”

R: Yeah, it had a - it had a lot of, “Oh yeah, that person’s ableist, that person’s sexist.” Like, they weren't checking each other, but...

N: ...No…

R: ...anyway, this is not the...

N: ...but also...

R: …”Animorphs” wrap-up...

N: ...in all fairness, they were like, point two pages long.

R: Mmhmm.

N: So, there’s only so much space in each narrative for any extra words, but.

R: I’m just saying, I hope - I hope this book, this series, does that better, and [sighs] think this is - I’m trying to remember how this one dealt with concussion, ‘cause I know somebody got hit in the head. Yeah.

N: Uh, pretty well. Our - our - we have a character who canonically had a concussion, was uh, unable to connect to VR, was doing things manually, had limited screen time, was off of school, was given the space to rest.

R: Yeah.

N: They had friends, including our main character, checking in on them regularly to make sure that their brain was still functioning, and they were ok. See if they needed anything. Uh, people came by in person to visit because they needed less screen time. Like they had people actively...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...caring for them.

R: Yeah.

N: And making sure - and you actually reading this at the time...

R: ...Oh I know I had said something about it...

N: ...had said that this was a very good...

R: ...I had...

N: ...a - as somebody who has experienced a concussion, you had said at the time that this was a very - this was the first like, real concussion reaction that you had seen, that made sense.

R: What - what I meant was, I remember that this one did a good job, and I hope he’s not magically all better in book two, because that...

N: No, he’s not. Also book two takes place like a while later. It’s not like the next day, yeah. There’s enough space that the healing that has happened makes sense but also that concu - also that uh...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...neuro-scramble injury is not immediately better...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...right away...

R: ...I mean that...

N: ...even so...

R: ...that makes me feel, like, better about recommending it if someone likes this style. Um.

N: Yeah. That is actually one thing where I’m just gonna say this just because you don’t read a lot of military sci-fi, in my experience, good military sci-fi, and I’m including this series in that, but also including things like uh, the - Elizabeth Moon’s various...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...sci-fi series, and uh, the Honor Harrington, who does Honor Harrington?

R: David Weber.

(26:52)

N: David Weber. David Weber does a good job with this. Uh, there’s a few, uh good sci-fi writers who write sci-fi fiction, injuries either are given full gravitas, especially if the writer has military background, which all of those people I listed I believe do. I know Elizabeth Moon does.

R: Mmmhmm.

N: Uh, either injuries are given full gravitas and do not vanish or there are explicit in-canon tech that explains why they heal better and faster.

R: Yeah.

N: The kind of stereotypical catch-all is just a regen tank where you just - the character just spends time like, off screen, in the regen tank for so - so many weeks or months and so then they’re better by the time we see them on camera again...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...but it’s not just “Oh I woke up and I got up out of the hospital, and I ripped out my I.V. tubes,” like no. It’s, “I’ve spent several months recovering,” [laughs]...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and here’s the state of the plot.” So, like I - I will say that in - in general in my personal experience as somebody who does love science fiction, including military fiction, sci-fi military books written by people who have military experience have some of the best injury recovery rate and care, and recuperation, and active acknowledgments, of any genre that I have read.

R: Ok.

N: They gloss over it far less than anything in fantasy, they gloss over it far less than just other space fiction, where it’s like, “Oh, we’re better ‘cause we’re in the future,”

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like, if you can find military fiction written by someone with a military background, it has that care and that aftercare in there, or if it doesn’t there is an explicit reason why, it’s not just handwaved.

R: As a general rule... yeah.

N: As a general rule, yeah.

R: Alright. So, thank you so much for joining us on this epilogue and you’ll get your next episode in a week, uh, what is that next episode? ‘Cause we can...

N: ...That next episode is part... book one of, I currently have our folder up.

R: Is it “Uglies”?

N: It is “Uglies”.

R: Excellent, so back to some sci-fi, little bit of...

N: [laughs]

R: ...teen romance.

N: Yeah, we’re - we’re back to sci-fi without it being paramilitary.

R: Mmhmm. Yeah.

N:[laughs]

R: “Uglies” was my first - “Uglies” really in a lot of ways, it’s the book that like, got me into sci-fi and fantasy, like, I’d read some Tamora Pierce before that, but a bookmobile had a commercial for “Here’s why you should read books,” and I was like, “Ok cool, I know about reading books,” and then it had a like, trailer for “Uglies” and I was like, “I have to read that.” I really like this series. I - I believe it was new. Had you read it before? I don’t think? Ok, yeah. So, it was new - [to] Nicole. So, we get to get - you’ll see that in the episode. Yep.

N: Flip that script next time. Yeah.

R: Thank you so much, and we’ll catch you in a week.