The Hork-Bajir Chronicles

Highlight 1

A Highlight from the Animorphs Series by K. A. Applegate

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

From the Show Notes...

This fortnight we bring you our discussion of "Hork Bajir Chronicles", our highlight episode from the "Animorphs" series by K. A. Applegate.

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:05)

N: Hey everybody, since we are either starting a new series or reading a stand-alone book, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, and we are not reading any books that depict real people as their characters in any way or are based on historical events. Second rule is that we are judging everything off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, or the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (1:06-1:28)

Plot Synopsis (1:28 - 1:38)

N: This week we are discussing the “Hork-Bajir Chronicles”, set in the “Animorphs” universe by K. A. Applegate. We learn about the Hork-Bajir before the Yeerks and meet a young Visser Three.

Factions (1:38 - 2:47)

N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and this “Books That Burn”! Alright, for the “Hork-Bajir Chronicles'', we have Aldrea-Iskillion-Falan, her father Prince Seerow, her brother Barafin, and then her mother. I looked, I cannot find her mother’s name.

N: I don’t think we ever get her mother’s name.

R: Ah. I hate when that happens. Uh...

N: ...Especially when...

R: ...Then we have...

N: ...we have everyone’s else’s first name.

R: Like, everyone else. We have random Hork-Bajir names and we don’t have Aldrea’s mother’s name.

N: We have random Yeerks and we don’t have Aldrea’s mother’s name.

R: Ah. Ok. Alright, continuing with the factions. We have Dak Hamee, Esplin 9466 [Nine-Four-Double-Six], Alloran-Semitur-Corrass, Quatzhinnikon, various Gedds, Jagil and Delf, and then technically we have Tobias, Jara Hamee, Ket Halpak, and Toby Hamee, but that’s in the framing device, and not main storyline.

Topic 1: Sensory Overload. Begins at (2:48), CW for discussion of narcissism.

R: Are you ready for Esplin 9466 [Nine-Four-Double-Six]?

N: Oh yeah...

R: ...Yes?

N: ...let’s…

R: ...No?

N: ...talk about this

R: ...Maybe?

N: ...awful - nah...

R: ...Alright...

N: ...that’s mean, that’s not really mean to him.

R: So we’re just talking about this book and not the monster he becomes.

N: Yes. Ah we should - we - we should be clear that...

R: ...We know him by another name during the main series, and if you’ve already read the main series then you know what it is, and if you haven't, you don’t care and...

N: ...Should we...

R: ...technically they don’t say the name in that text. Technically this book...say...does not say that name anywhere.

N: It - it doesn't. Should we refer...

R: ...Nope - uh, Esplin - he’s Esplin.

N: Robin.

R: Yes?

N: I will cut this if I need to.

R: Mmhmm.

N: It is entirely possible that there will be people that will listen to this podcast, that will listen to this episode that have read the main bulk of the Animorphs books and don’t care to read the chronicles, and - want to listen to our episode to just get opinion of this story and will - and actually know the whole main story.

R: That is a strange combination[s] of things that I had not considered. Lovely listeners, if you are in that camp...

N: [laughs]

R: … I apologize for not considering you. Esplin 9466 [Nine-Four-Double-Six] is Visser Three.

N: Yeah. Ah - and I’m only - I’m only putting that out there ‘cause we did have a discussion like, three minutes ago, about the fact that you personally didn’t care about - about some of those extra books for a very, very, very long time.

R: No, I cared about them. I didn’t know they existed.

N: But that - that’s what I’m saying like, it - it’s possible for people, yeah, and - and that doesn't mean that they don't want to hear this episode, because it might be the thing that decides whether or not those extra books are worth it. We don't know. So, we should - we should be - so yeah. Esplin - Esplin will eventually become Visser Three.

R: Yes but not yet.

N: Not yet.

R: Ah, he’s super busy being various - he’s super busy being various kinds of subvisser and I’m not worried about all those designations because...

N: ...No, we don’t...

R: ...that’s not...

N: ...care about those because...

R: ...he was primarily known.

N: And - and they don’t last outside this book anyways, so they don’t - they do - do not matter. He leaves them in his past.

R: Alright, so Esplin 9466 [Nine-Four-Double-Six], we are talking about him and uh, also talking about our second - second topic because, because just because someone is hurt doesn't mean that they cannot also be a perpetrator, and Esplin is a very extreme example of this, and then our uh, second character topic is a still significant example of this.

N: Yeah, we have a pretty uh, I don’t know, villainous cast of main characters. Yeah, it is.

R: This is a “perpetrators get hurt sometimes too” book.

N: And - so we had an interesting conversation, um, when we were kind of figuring out what we were talking about this episode, because Robin and I have very, very different opinions on Esplin in...

R: ...So...

N: ...this book.

(5:56)

R: My - the general shape of my opinion is that in this book, uh, he is traumatized by losing access to senses that he only had by taking over another creature's body, and it’s a very narcissistic reaction: He feels helpless. But also when we’re taking the perspective that the author has inflicted trauma on the character, the author created a species that can’t have a full existence without some form of symbiosis with other species, a lot of the time that symbiosis takes the form of parasitism, and there could be an argument that when the Yeerks parasitise the Gedds, that it’s actually commensalism, where the Gedds aren’t harmed but they’re also not hurt. And, parasitism is where the host is hurt, and...

N: My general opinion of Esplin is that he is quote-unquote “Traumatized” much in the same way that an abuser feels “traumatized” when they lose access to their victim, and that he is “traumatized” in the same way that a narcissist blames the person that they are controlling, emotionally feeding off of, when that person asserts boundaries or denies them access. And I - and I will - I will - so full disclosure, without spoilers, I am of this opinion because of part - partly I’m of this opinion - my - my opinion on the Yeerks as a race and their designation with the Gedds is actually an opinion that is formed based on uh, evidence that we have in another book in this series, and I’m not gonna get into spoilers in that book, but I have reasons that I believe that they are more - more - have more of a mutualism um, with the Gedds, and then they are parasitic towards any other species, like I have reasons for that from a different book, but I stand firm in my opinion of - of that being the case. Now, with Visser Three...

R: ...mutualism being the situation where both species benefit.

N: Yes. Uh, I - I don’t think it’s as simple as one of them [is] just kind of along for the ride, like, no. They - they’re sim - there’s some contextual evidence to support um, it - it being very, very beneficial to both parties.

R: And we’re gonna have a long argument when I get to that point in my reread because...

N: Yeah. When - when Robin actually reads that book, we’re gonna talk about it.

R: To be clear…

N: ...But to be fair...

R: ...I’ve read them all before when I refer to that point in my reread, what I mean is that “Hey, if anyone was paying attention to our facebook and twitter in February - in January, February, and probably a little bit of March [2020]?

(9:04)

It’s January right now, so I’m projecting how long this will take, where I was doing a whole bunch of Animorphs reviews, that’s because we were doing this book and I camouflaged it with rereading the entire series...

N: ...Rereading all of...

R: ...and...

N: ...the 62-plus books. So...

R: ...and reviewing all - it’s 64.

N: I said 64?

R: I don’t remember. It - I - it’s 64 but I don’t remember if that’s with or without Alternamorphs.

N: Oh yeah. Ok. So, Visser Three, my - I - I also do wanna say like, my opinion of Visser Three I think is a little bit colored by the way I treat abusers who try and make themselves appear the victim when they’re essentially told stop, or have boundaries put up, because it’s a very - it’s a very, like, common thing in real life where an abuser feels upset and hurt and when they’re denied access to their victim in any way, shape or form. And my - my very, very hard, strong reaction is to look at that person and say, “You’re not the victim. You’re just upset that you don’t get to control and hurt this other person anymore.”

R: And to be clear, I do agree about - I do agree with that for Esplin.

N: Oh, oh yeah. But it...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it’s just I - I feel like - I feel like I - my opinion on Esplin is just very, very colored by that being my reaction. I don’t think he’s a victim. I don’t think he’s traumatized, I think he’s just upset that, you know what? Maybe you don’t get access to other living creatures at your whim. Maybe you don't get to just take over sentient beings for kicks, just because you like it. Like, that’s - that’s where I look at it and say, “I don’t think he’s traumatized.”

R: So, for...

N: ...At all...

R: ...my argument for why he is traumatized, but also I’m gonna contrast it how much more the other Yeerks, some of them, are traumatized.

N: Yes. We - we do need to talk about that, because that I - that I do actually think is trauma.

R: You - you push - well yeah. So, currently, Niki’s pushing back after - about something I haven't articulated. Here’s my articulation. Uh, he has access to - so - so the Yeerks are a parasitic species that are basically slugs in liquid, and they have the ability to get inside the brain of other creatures and control them. And, the host is a - knows what’s happening, and can’t do anything about it, and it is a “I can't use my mouth, but I must scream,”

N: [laughs]

R: ...situation, if you’re a species that has a mouth, um, so.

N: Which is not - which is negotiable in this series.

R: Yeah, Andalites don’t have mouths, anyway. Uh, so, he gets in a host for the very first time in this book. Well, for the second time, it sounds like there was some other unspecified other instance that didn’t have as many senses. He gets in a host for a meaningful time and is just astounded and kind of like, squishes the Gedd’s brain down. He - he then is taken out of the Gedd because there’s a lot of Yeerks and not very many host bodies, you gotta train ‘em.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And he - yes it is a narcissistic reaction, but he is hurt and upset by no longer having access to these extra senses.

(12:43)

But totally: It is a parasitic - it is a narcissistic reaction about being denied something that he feels is owed to him, when it - it is not, and I do agree with that. So then with the Yeerks that are not him, uh, he - he apparently talked to some of his friends and family after uh, his experience in the host, and most of them were uh, traumatized by being in a host because like, having senses and limbs, and eyes, and ahhh, it’s too much. It was very disorienting and stressful, and I liked - even though he is a terrible, terrible person, uh, I liked that by getting his perspective we got a window into the Yeerk society in this cool way. So...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...part of why I wanted to talk about him, and also, because - again, people aren’t terrible and also never victims, but that doesn't excuse anything that they do, and I wanted that opportunity - this opportunity to make that point because we’ve had a lot of like, clear cut, this person gets hurt, this person’s the one hurting other people, and I like how this like, messes with that, like, black and white sense. Like, there’s - there’s gradiance, but it doesn’t stop some people from being very far on the side of “they are inflicting way more pain than they have experienced”.

N: Oh abso - I mean absolutely. I just - I don’t know. I feel like our - our next topic is gonna be much more of a - ah - topic...

R: ...There’s a lot more give and take there...

N: ...we’re gonna be more...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...in agreement because our - our next - our next topic definitely is somebody who is hurt and then turns around and hurts other people. I just really feel like Esplin is just - he - he’s just - he wants this thing even at the cost of other people and he had a taste of it and now he just wants to control other people forever, and that's’ just how he wants to live.

R: And later on he controls a mind that is not as easily - it is as easily squished but it’s not as quiet, and um.

N: Yeah, like there’s - there’s a lot of just - there’s a lot of just like, Esplin wants it and if he’s denied, he doesn't throw like a toddler tantrum, but that’s only because he was never a human toddler to have that as an example. Like, - like - he’s - he’s an - he’s an alien creature. He does not throw a human toddler tantrum, but he literally has access to this other living creature's senses and body and then is upset when it’s taken away even temporarily, and like, “Nah man. That’s not your - like you don't - you don’t get to be hurt by being denied that. Like that’s not your…” Like I just feel like that’s not his right to even like, he’s literal - he’s literally like, upset that he can’t just control living creatures all the time and, yeah.

(16:07)

R: Sorry, I lost - so Niki you’re saying his right to swing your fist ends at...

N: ...Wait what?

R: ...your face - his right to swing your fist ends at your face? I’m sorry...

N: ...I guess. I do know the thing you’re quoting, but also like, I don’t understand the - the twist that just happened, but it’s ok. Um, yeah probably. [laughs]

R: [laughs] Ok...

N: But yeah...

R: ...Um….

N: ...I just feel like - I don’t - I don’t know. I think - I think he’s definitely somebody - like I - I - I did agree that he should be our topic, I just - I don’t know. I feel like Robin and I just have very different reactions to his character, which is - which is important for us to talk about because - just because - so this - this is something where the way an author shapes the way they treat their characters in the book, gives people their opinions and I - I do find it very, very interesting that Robin and I both read the same things about Esplin in his early life, and came to different conclusions, even so far as like, whether or not he’s traumatised. Like I just find it - like that’s, you know, that’s really the conversation here, is that, um, K. A. Applegate set up this character who is upset when he’s not allowed to just do whatever, even with other people’s free will. Like, he’s upset when he’s not allowed to run roughshod over it. And it’s written in such a way where we can make our own - our own opinion of that and...

R: ...I think I compartmentalize...

N: …that is really cool.

R: ...characters a lot more that you do, is part of it...

N: ...That’s fair...

R: ...and so...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...I - I have a lot more of like, tiny pieces of information that I can look at separate from each other and then place them into a frame and it feels more like you just kind of like, have more of a holistic view than I do.

N: Well, I mean we’ve - we’ve talked in our lifetimes, multiple times about the fact that you are very much a databites person, and I’m very much of a formulaic system person. I - I am that person who sees the world like a bush of that one spider who makes 3D circular webs in the bush and if you pull one strain these 17 things shift slightly, like that’s how I see everything. I - I very much don’t like...

R: ...Where as I am more like...

N: ...compartmentalize and - and Robin...

R: No I definitely...

N: ...does...

R: …like keep my head down, focus on one small bit of this complicated thing at a time, and then like - like I build very complicated spreadsheets...

N: ...Oh yeah, but one...

R: ...but it is...

N: ...small cell at a time...

R: ...one cell at a time, and often I look at the spreadsheet that I made and I am disoriented by how much went into it and I’m like, “Oh boy. Sure glad I didn’t have to do all of that at once.”

N: And see I...

R: …And like it’s...

N: ...I grasp onto things that require me to track multiple thread lines in synchronicity because I need it to be that complex, because I will - I will pull like - it’s - it’s - I think you’re - I think you’re right, I think it is partly a difference in how we process...

R: …You also have musical training in a way that I did not keep up with because my brain just hated that. It was not...

N: ...and I thrive...

R: ...helpful for me.

N: I thrive on that. It is - it is - I think part of the reason I really love music is that it is always that complex.

R: Yeah. uh.

N: Yeah.

R: They are Heartbeat Art who made all our music, like.

N: Hello.

R:Yeah.

N: Yep.

[Musical Interlude]

Topic 2: Massacre. Begins at (20:00), CW for loss of family members, death.

R: Moving onto Aldrea, death and revenge. The very big thing that happens that is the main trauma for her is that her family is killed in front of her in very dramatic “being from space, right as she runs up and is too late to warn them” fashion.

N: Perfect timing for her to not get injured by the heat, or the laser...

R: ...Exactly...

N: ...but also see it all in crisp, rendered detail.

R: Yeah, uh, it’s done very dramatically, where like she describes them still being alive, and it’s like, “I don’t want to think what happens next,” ok chapter change.

N: [laughs]

R: Here’s what happened next.

N:Yeah.

R: Um, I think it was like...

N: ...Can I just say, props to K. A. Applegate because there are some, uh, authors that will do that kind of thing that I read it, and it’s like, stressful to read, and it’s like, frustrating to read. K. A. Applegate, the way that she does it...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...I never dislike that kind of transition, and she does it kind of a lot.

R: Yeah.

N: I just think it’s done very well. She does a good job.

R: Ah, so now that her family’s dead, she swears revenge, and she had already been manipulating Dak, but...

N: [laughs]

R: ...like ramps it up to use him to make their goals align in a - align? Maybe?

N: Uh.

R: Eh?

N: “Align” is a very strong word.

R: She works very hard to make him...

N: ...To make her goals...

R: ...feel...

N: ...into his?

R: To make him feel like their goals are lining up, but he keeps seeing through it and being like...

N: [laughs]

R: “Why are you doing that? You could just say what you want?” Yes?

N: Yeah.

R: No? Um, eh.

N: Do we wanna...

R: ...So then...

N: ...do we wanna kind of say our - like our run downs? You - you can start.

R: Sure yeah. So, um, part of why I wanted to talk about Aldrea, even though Nicole had stated prior to the podcast that they didn’t like Aldrea, it’s ok I don’t like Aldrea either, uh, I don’t like Aldrea because of terrible things she does in a book that’s not this one. Um, uh. Part of why I wanted to talk about her is because she’s part of the general shape of what kinda what feels to me to be the theme of this book, to be the “You can be a victim and a perpetrator.” We already talked about this uh, with Esplin, but it’s more nuanced and it’s more like squishy with Aldrea because Esplin is a clear-cut villain in the rest of the series, as Visser Three, and Aldrea is not in it very much. I - that’s the kindest thing I can say about her.

N: [laughs]

R: Uh, Nicole.

(23:05)

N: Ok, so...

R: ...Ok, your take...

N: ...My - my thought process with this character is I love her as a character. She's very well written. She’s very - for a - for a book with very few pages, she’s very nuanced and also she does a good job of being a - a villian who sees themselves as the hero, and the way the text was written, we - we get like a pretty good view of like “Aldrea sees herself as this - the heroic, trying to survive, victim of all of these things”, and at the same time we also have Dak looking at her going, “Hey, I know that you’re awful, but also like - like, we’re still this thing.” So here’s - here’s - here’s my opinion on Aldrea. She starts out manipulating Dak into codependency in a way that - where - I - I would honestly argue that I think that she does genuinely care for Dak as a like an “I care about you,” kind of way, but I would also argue that it’s kind of - it’s - it’s very much in line with the narcissist, abusive spouse. She very much - she’s very controlling of him. She’s very manipulative of him. She’s very - shevery - she pushes him into codependency in a way that looks abusive to me, by - and she says it. Like that’s the thing. She explicitly says in the text that she is - she gives Dak information and understanding of Maths, and Science and - Andalite, just understanding of the universe, the universes I think even - and she does it not because she thinks she wants him to have the knowledge and not because he wants the knowledge, but she does it because then he is dependent on her, and she says that outright in the text. There’s - there’s - and there’s a - later in the book there is a moment where Aldrea - where they’re - Dak - the Hork-Bajir are under threat of extermination through uh, chemical, genetic warfare - uh, virus warfare. I think that’s - is that chemical

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...warfare?

R: Biological warfare.

N: Biological war - That’s the word I’m looking for, ok. They’re under threat of biological extermination with bio - through biological warfare, and Aldrea looks at Dak and says, “I’ll turn into a Hork-Bajir forever. I’ll morph and get caught in that morph, and then we can be together forever and we’ll live or die together.” And Dak looks at her and just thinks, “You’re lying to me.” And then later, after - I don’t remember if he calls her out on it outloud or just in his head. I...

R: ...Or if we just had his perspective for that chat?

N: I think it was his perspective. ‘Cause I think it was her perspective going into that base, that - that room, and then it switched perspectives, and she said it and he was like, “Ooh, you know you won’t. This is a trick. This is a lie. She’s lying again, to me again, for no reason again, instead of being truthful again.” Um, but then after uh, then there’s this moment where Esplin finds out that Aldrea is not only a - is not only the - the Andalite body that he craves above all, but also has this morphing capability that until he finds out about it at it - at that moment, no Yeerk knew about, and really, honestly, like a handful of Andalites even knew about because it wasn't just general tech as the time. Uh.

R: It’s kind of a plot point that a lot of Andalites don’t know about it. It’s what let’s her do...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...some of what she does.

N: Yes, like she - she has this thing through child nefarious proximity to scientists who just were, you know, letting the kid have some fun, kind of - kind of thing. It’s kind of the - the perspective that we’re kind of handed. Uh, but it...

R: ...Gentle pushback on the word “nefarious” but otherwise I have no qualms with...

N: ...Uh, I mean...

R: ...that assessment...

N: ...she uses it nefariously.

(27:34)

She - it - it’s - I would argue - the only reason I say it’s nefarious is because like her parents don’t know. And she takes great pains to never let them know the whole time, like she’s - she knows that she’s not supposed to have this ability. Like it’s not - it’s not just like secret tech that they didn’t have access to. Like, no it’s a - it’s a secret that she is keeping. Even like - yeah. Uh, anyways, there’s a - we could talk about that for a while too like, there’s a whole thing with her dynamic with her parents, but, moving on. She - so then Esplin finds out that this - this Andalite body that he wants also has the - this morphing ability, and after she finds - she knows that he knows that she can do this and lives, that’s the point where she actually transforms into a Hork-Bajir and then stays there forever. And there’s very - and then - and - and Dak calls her out on it then and basically says like, “Hey, I thought you were lying,” and she literally looks him in the face and goes, “Oh I was. I was lying to you. I’m not lying now, and I’m doing for real now, but I a hundred percent lied to you before,” and everything she does is just using him because she wants something, and she looks him in the face and lies and manipulates to him, and when he calls her out on it she goes, “tch - Yeah, you’re right, I’m being awful,” like.

R: I half wonder if she really would have stayed in the morph if they hadn’t gotten knocked unconscious. I don’t know...

N: ...That’s a very good point. I have no idea. Like that’s a good question, honestly.

R: And - yeah. No idea.

N: So, yeah. That’s my opinion on Aldrea. I think she’s a great character. I think she’s a terrible person, and I think that her relationship with Dak is - is super codependent in a “manipulated she wanted him to be codependent” kind of way and.

R: And there’s language like when they’re...

N: ...Oh man...

R: ...They were, “Oh I must like him because if there were other Andalite” - basically it’s like “If there were other Andalite males I’d be very horny right now, but there’s just Dak so, not sure what’s gonna happen.”

N: Yeah, like she’s like, “Oh, you know, I’m of the age to be interested in males, and man, if only I - I could choose someone from my own species. Oh I guess this one will have to do,” like…

R: ...Guess i’ll just like…

N: ...come on...

R: ...his species...

N: ...Aldrea.

R: Yeah. Also, there’s no hesitation when like, the way she gets the DNA for the Hork-Bajir that she turns into...

N: Oh yeah! Oh that’s a good point. Yeah, like she...

R: ...there’s no consideration when she...

N: ...no permission...

R: It’s just, “Look how acquiring works. See me acquiring somebody?”

N: Yeah, like, ok let’s - even putting aside the whole would the Hork-Bajir, oh what’s her name? I know we wrote it down. Would um, Delf - would Delf even have been able to consent?

(30:45)

Like that’s a whole - like - ok. Acquiring an animal that is physically incapable of communication with you and is non sentient, is a whole different discussion than acquiring a creature who is sentient and can’t understand to give consent. That’s a whole different - that - those are like - like Aldrea acquiring that flying tree-top creature, is not the same thing as acquiring a being that has a mind of its own outside of instinct. Canonically…

R: ...Can I bring…

N: ...speaking...

R: .... a little bit of a perspective? Like I - I agree with you, I just have more thoughts in...

N: ...Yeah, absolutely...

R: ...this direction...

N: Go for it...

R: Um, I would like to bring in a perspective that I have from reading the first 13 books and then this book, which…

N: ...Ok...

R: ...which is the proper reading order if you’re trying to get the best...

N: ...Oh yeah, if you’re trying to go...

R: ...no spoiler...

N: … like “chronologically”...

R: ...nothing out of order. Yeah. If you're trying to get the order that makes the most sense and will have the fewer spoilers at every turn...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...that’s what you should do.

N: Yep.

R: Um, at this point the Animorphs in the continuity of when the author did these...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...the Animorphs have already had discussions of like, “Is a whale so intelligent that it crosses…”

N: ...Yeah...

R: “...ethical lines to be able to morph.” So my…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...main point with this is that we know the author has thought about this.

N: Yes.

R: The author has thought about this...

N: ...Yes...

R: ...a lot and written about this a lot, and I’m not gonna spoil what the animorphs decide about all of this because like...

N: ...Right...

R: ...you know, read the series.

N: [laughs]

R: But we - we have evidence that the author puts thought into this elsewhere and then…

N: ...Oh that makes it...

R: ...Aldrea...

N: ...deliberate...

R: .... just - exactly. And then…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...Aldrea just acquires uh, Delf, with no like, “Hey, can I be - can I - can I look like you,” like...

N: ...Right!

R: The...

N: ...There...

R: ....the...

N: ...there would have been ways to frame it like, “Is it ok if I look like you for a bit?”

R: Right.

N: “Is it ok if I - if I hold your hand and become a Hork-Bajir?” Like...

R: The...

N: …”“I want to become like you.”

R: ...book immediately

N: …like there’s nothing...

R: ...before this, which establishes Jara and Ket who were in the framing device.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, the book immediately before this, they are Hork-Bajir of average Hork-Bajir intelligence and permission is still asked before anybody acquires them.

N: Yes.

R: And then back to back this book...

N: ...Yep...

R: …there isn’t - it’s totally deliberate. I feel more and more like Aldrea just is a villain...

N: ...Oh no...

R: ...in this...

N: ...I - yeah, absolutely.

R: I’m...

N: ...Aldrea...

R: ...without...

N: ...this is - this is such a rare, I feel like, book where we absolutely have - we don’t just have a villain where it’s like, “Ooh, fanfiction from their point of view where they’re gonna think themselves the hero,” like no. We have a canonical book with a villain as the main character who sees themselves as a victim while they go around doing their villainous deeds.

R: And in this book we have two. I think - I...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...I - and I had never thought about it before this way.

N: [laughs]

R: I hadn’t been like, “Oh, I don’t like Aldrea but I guess she’s a good person.”

N: Oh I - I...

R: ...I had thought of...

N: ...have never seen Aldrea as a good person reading this series.

R: Yeah...

N: ...Never...

R: ...in my view - just this book, I was like, “Oh yeah, revenge, that makes sense.” Like...

N: [laughs]

R: ...in middle school like, when I was reading these the most, middle school and a bit into high school, like I didn’t - I didn’t think of it like that. I was like, “Oh, Andalites are good, Yeerks are bad and…”

N: ...Oh my gosh…

R: “...and moving on.” Like, not that i didn’t have any nuance…

N: ...Right...

R: ...but I didn’t have...

N: ...you didn’t have

R: ...I didn’t have...

N: ...this...

R: ...I didn’t have this level of it...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...and so I’m really glad that we’re talking about this. Um, I am...

Topic 3: Betrayal. Begins at (34:30), CW for betrayal, lying, gaslighting, controlling behavior.

Second Topic “Dak Hamee” 34:56-49:13

R: We have Dak Hamee and so - so much - so much happens to Dak. Um, the big… [sigh].

N: There’s a lot of ‘the big’. There’s like - there’s a lot of big things.

R: Overarching and related to our last topic thing is that he’s being manipulated by Aldrea. The existential reason why his species exists is being manipulated by the Arn. The - back to Aldrea - manipulated into murder and teaching his whole species to murder, um, with the added weight that he is literally the only Hork-Bajir - unless there’s a seer in one of the other valleys - he’s the only Hork-Bajir, that we know of, who can even understand what a monumental shift [this] is, ‘cause for all the other ones, that’s just what they’re doing now.

N: Yeah. There - there’s some...

R: ...There’s a lot going on with Dak...

N: ...there’s a lot going on with Dak, and can I just say - ok. So talking about how, you know, how the author treats Dak, I - I - I really like that again we get an author who takes a character who’s being manipulated and has that character - it - it - in a book that’s actually kind of written for - for like middle schoolers.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Written for children, we get again an author who has a character who is being manipulated who directly calls out that manipulation and says, “You are manipulating me.” And this...

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...time - this time it’s not gaslighting, it’s just straight up lies.

R: Hmm.

N: But also, like.

R: A lot of passive aggressive [stuff].

N: A lot of passive aggressive, yes. Yeah, but - but we have this, the way the character is treated, Dak is a victim and also given the voice to say, “Hey, that’s not ok.” Now, does Dak really have like, I don’t know, any like actual agency in this situation or is he just kind of along for the ride? Like he’s kinda got false agency, but he’s really kind of at the mercy of his manipulators, but we don’t see him just believing the lies, and I think, I...

R: ...I think Dak...

N: ...don’t know...

R: ...has a lot of agency, he just has mostly bad options.

N: Well that would be...

R: ...which isn’t the same...

N: ...the lack of agency part. I...

R: ...Well...

N: ...I - I feel like that’s a - I feel like if you don’t have options, your agency is being taken from you, which is…

R: ...Ok, sorry...

N: ...so like - which I think is

R: ...I’m meant...

N: ...I think we’re just wording it different.

R: I meant agency in an intellectual capacity, in comparison...

N: ...Oh, oh I meant...

R: ...to the other Hork-Bajir...

N: ...like.

R: Agency as a character...

N: ...yeah...

R: …oh, it’s limited.

N: Yeah, I meant - I meant agency as like a character...

R: ...his narrative agency is very limited.

N: Yeah.

R: His character design in comparison to his peer’s agency, is very expanded.

N: Yes. Um.

R: Um.

N: But yeah like, I just - I - I - I just wanna - I just wanted to - to, you know, say props to K. A. for...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...it - it’s very well written and - and again it’s written without him having to fix it. It’s just a thing, and it’s pointed out as it’s done.

R: Uh, like, so he’s - he’s really - he’s really pulled between two narcissists. Uh, luckily for all you listeners they are the narcissists we’ve already talked about, so.

N: [laughs]

(38:28)

R: Refer to those sections for their uh, goals and aims and things.

N: Yeah.

R: The way that it affects Dak, I mentioned this a little bit but I wanted - I think this is the point to linger on.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, is that he understands what murder is and at Aldrea’s behest and at the pressure created by the Yeerks being there, he is pushed into teaching his species to murder and, there’s a bit where they’re dancing on Yeerks...

N: ...Literally...

R: ...to kill them.

N: Yeah.

R: Lit - no hyperbole, literally dancing. Like, there might not have been music involved, but like, movement-wise that’s what’s happening, and by the end of the book, they’re guerilla fighters and this.

N: And proud of it.

R: Yeah! And it’s...

N: ...And don’t really understand it and they’re still proud of it because they’re following instructions so, so well.

R: Yeah, um, gosh. It makes me, uh, wanna draw comparisons to things in other books.

N: Yeah.

R: So.

N: Same, I have one I want to talk to you about after the podcast is over.

R: Yeah...

N: ...Maybe not...

R: ...definitely...

N: ...tonight.

R: Yeah not tonight. It’s - it’s late. Um, no not for you listeners, at least not necessarily for you, but uh.

N: Fun...

R: ...Just passed midnight for...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...for us...

N: ...fun - fun fact, we’re recording - we record now very late on fridays...very late...

R: ...This is our...

N: ...for - for Robin.

R: This is our first attempt at recording late in the evening. Um, so back to what we can talk about in this book, uh, this author has previously explored um, in other books the way that being innocent or childlike is the not - is not the same thing as being peaceful. By previously explored, I mean it is 2020 and by this point they’ve previously explored it, at this point in the canon they haven't totally flushed that out yet. Um, but, um, anyway we - we know it’s a thing the author is going to explore more later, I’m fuzzy on the continuity to when it was in - in their thoughts, um, I don’t know. It’s just I - I’m feeling the weight of...

N: ...Which part are you looking at?

R: Teaches the species to murder, is...

N: ...oh, continuity...

R: ...so I’m think...

N: ...on that…

R: ...so…

N: ...one...

R: So, I’m...

N: ...I’mma have to double check.

R: So this was definitely published first, but I - so this was definitely published before the stuff that we’re - the [Howlers] if you’ve read the thing. The [Howlers] is what we’re dancing around. If you haven’t read them, this won’t mean anything to you. But this isn’t our first - this isn’t our only depiction in this series of murder and death inflicted by those who are not mentally able to understand what’s happening, and since we have the perspective of the one Hork-Bajir who is guaranteed to understand what’s happening it’s hard to speak to how totally they do or don’t get it.

(42:05)

N: Yeah, in later books we get explicitly how they don’t get it. In this book we just know that they are essentially playing copy-cat without any understanding of the implications of what they’re doing. There’s no...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...there’s no existential understanding which...

R: ...and they might gradually learn more and in the framing device there are Hork-Bajir who like know how to do stuff?

N: Yeah...

R: ...But...

N: ...but those Hork-Bajir also kind of - I feel like growing with a Yeerk in your head is a little bit different than just growing up and then “Ooh, if I slash at something it - it then falls over and stops moving,” and like, that’s - there’s - there’s a bunch different framing there.

R: There's this scene that like, feels kind of endless but is actually only a very short part of the book where Dak is introduced to the concept that his blades could hurt somebody on purpose, and he’s...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...the smart one and the - the paradigm shift he has to work through in his brain...

N: ...Oh my gosh...

R: ...is so difficult and so stressful...

N: ...it’s...

R: ...that he - he’s the one whose intelligence rivals the Arn, canonically.

N: Yeah, and we...

R: ...Makes me wonder if he’s smarter than Aldrea, um, because the Arn are pretty dang smart.

N: Well, I - I - I want to avoid intelligence comparisons.

R: No, the only - the only reason I’m bringing it up is because the - Al - Aldrea, a lot of her entitlement and superiority is wrapped in the idea that she is smarter than him and is benevolently teaching him all this stuff, but he just needs access to knowledge and training, and it just...

N: Yeah, I’m - I’m thinking more of like, we don’t wanna just...

R: ...I don’t - there’s to me a - I’m not trying to imply some kind of hierarchy better or worse...

N: ...Yeah, ok...

R: ...I’m just pushing back - I’m pushing back against the narrative that the Andalites have where…

N: ...Oh, oh absolutely, the Andalites think they are the single best thing that ever happened to existence.

R: Exactly. And so for the seers among the Hork-Bajir to be possibly more intelligent than Andalites, or at least so close as makes no difference, and fits within the variation of Andalite intelligence, ‘cause there’s gonna be a range, to me that - I think that's important existentially. Maybe more so for the entire series than just this book, um.

N: Yeah...

R: ...But with um...

N: ...We wanna...

R: ...He’s very - he’s so smart and - and he ha... - he didn’t think about hurting someone on purpose ever because it just wasn’t part of how he was raised because the people raising him didn’t have a concept and, uh...

N: I...

R: ...I’m sorry if I’m going in circles a little bit. It just, emotionally this scene had so much weight.

N: Oh it’s such a good scene. I - I do wanna put in a - a quick contextual note in case we have listeners who have not read this series but still want to just listen for any reason. So, there is - in this series, and this is - this is also - and - and I am - I’m only really putting this in this discussion because this is a highlight - a highlight episode so we’re not gonna come back and, you know, give this a lot of extra topic in - in other episodes. This is probably our only...

R: ...If we do...

N: ...one...

R: ...it will be in three years, it will be that we dip back “The Ellimist Chronicles”, ‘cause um.

N: Yeah, ‘cause it’s a very good book.

(46:02)

Uh, well, and - and so, I just - I wanna point out that discussions of who is more intelligent than who is not accidentally taken, having to happen with very ableist language, because the way these characters are written, they - the characters and - and the Andalites as a species, are incredibly ableist. Just...

R: ...They’re so...

N: ...incredibly...

R: ...ableist...

N: ...hyper ableist. So, when we are comparing, in our discussion and saying, you know like, “Dak rivals, uh, an - an Andalite for intelligence,”

R: I say it ‘cause that’s gonna be upsetting to the Andalites. [laughs].

N: Well, it - it and it - it’s not because we are looking at them and saying, “Well, if Dak can keep up with the - the intelligent Andalite,” no, it’s because the Andalites literally look at themselves, and say, “We are the smartest. We are the best. How dare you imply that we have disabled among us.” Like that’s a thing. This happens.

R: Oh.

N: Like they - they are - they are hyper ableist as a society, and so our discussion of...

R: ...I don’t remember the number, but the one where Marko is a bee, is...

N: ...That’s it. Yeah.

R: Yup.

N: There - there’s - and I think it is not an accident and so our - our discussion here is not a reflection of, I hope, not a reflection of...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...ableist ideas that we hold, but more that we are - we’re looking at the way these characters are written and the Andalites are - are just ableist to a - a - a gross and, not murderous degree, but neglectfully death inducing degree I would say. It’s not great.

R: No, the - they are...

N: ...I just think that’s important in this discussion of - of intelligence.

R: Oh yeah, yeah. No I’m not - not trying to say that it’s good or bad that he is or is not smarter, or that that matters ...

N: ...No...

R: ….at all...

N: ...but it matters to Aldrea...

R: ...it matters to the - it matters to Aldrea because uh - and he - he keeps pushing back on it...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...and I...

N: ...Very much. It’s just - it’s just such a weird - it’s very well written. I - I like - I like K. A.’s - she does such a good job with, uh, just a lot of this stuff.

R: Yeah, and we’re saying K. A., because Katherine Applegate is a person who writes a bunch of books. K. A. Applegate is the pen name for Katherine and her husband, Michael, and whatever ghost writers they have throughout the series. So, that’s why we’re saying K. A., ‘cause that refers to this whole collective of everybody.

N: I’m also just trying to be more informal than [comically deep voice] K. A. Applegate, like, it’s fine.

R: Oh exactly.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah, but just K. A. instead of...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...Yeah.

N: That’s...

R: ...um...

N: ...that is all I have for her - or for him.

R: Yeah, for Dak Hamee.

N: Yeah.

R: Ok.

N: Yeah, I just - I just wanted to put that in.

[Musical Interlude]

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (49:15).

R: Onto the wrap-up and ratings. For our gratuity rating. For… [the] name dropped out of my head.

N: …[Esplin]...

R: [Esplin]. Uh, uh. What’s a gratuity rating?

N: Oh man. Uh, uh.

R: I’d say the...

N: ...um...

R: ...gratuity rating for...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...what...

N: ...so...

R: ...happened and what he’s doing.

N: So here’s the thing, I - I am probably gonna - well this is hard, because...

R: ...I think severe...

N: ...at some level...

R: ...and fear...

N: Yeah. I think it’s - well, this is the - this is the struggle that’s going on in my head because...

R: ...so, my - may I say my thought? Or? My thought is it’s mild for what’s happening to him but he thinks it's severe, and it’s severe for what he’s doing because he thinks his thing was severe.

N: I was actually gonna argue it from a little bit more reader-centric perspective. I’m debating in my head whether it’s severe because of body horror content and body takeover content or if it’s mild because of it - because of not being very graphic and being very treated, very sci fi, very um, just - just real mild language.

R: Um...

N: I wasn’t thinking about [Esplin’s] opinions at all.

R: No, no, no.

N: To be fair.

R: Not his opinion, I was just - we have technically two different aspects of his topic. The two parts of his topic are what happened to him and what he did to other people.

N: Yeah, that’s true. I’m just thinking...

R: ...That - that was my split of I think what happened to him was mild and is depicted mildly.

N: Mm, and what he...

R: ...And what he did to other...

N: ...did to other people...

R: ...people was severe and is depicted somewhere between moderate and severe. My only hesitation on putting it on severe would be ‘cause...

N: ...It’s a - it’s a series...

R: ...the first Animorphs is way darker than this.

N: But also like Animorphs is so - has so - such pretty severe topics but they’re written in such a way that they’re not.

R: That’s what the care rating is for.

N: Seven [sighs].

R: Ok, so moderate...

N: ...That’s true...

R: ...because it doesn’t make it feel like it’s happening to you.

N: It - yeah. It doesn’t make it - it’s very - it’s very removed but very...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...descriptive removed from the reader language.

R: Ok.

N: That makes sense. Ok.

R: Yeah.

N: Alright, so yeah. Uh, if you…

(52:20)

R: Aldrea, for gratuity. Ah, somewhere between moderate and severe.

N: Ah - mm.

R: Moderate?

N: It’s so hard. These are so light. These are so quick. I - I think moderate.

R: Yeah. It - it - it kind of adds up.

N: It - it kind of adds up and again like, emotionally the impact - we get a very good view of its emotional impact on Aldrea, but as a reader...

R: I’d say there’s one scene that I have no qualms about saying is severe.

N: Ok.

R: But most of it is moderate. Um.

N: Ok. Ah, I’m - I’m ok with - I’m ok with moderate because I also - I also feel like this is one of those series where as a child if I were asked this question I would have said mild. There - there is something to be said...

R: ...Heh…

N: ...and this - this is a beloved child series that children read for kicks. And I - I just feel like having an adult perspective on it makes it more darker because we as adults have more of a perspective on the topics? I guess?

R: The gratuity rating is the one where I started to feel more and more of like I do the gratuity rating, and then you ask me to tweak it, and I say yes or no, because um, sorry, your sense is - it is skewed. It is skewed, yes? But ma - that - I - I’m saying that it was severe the whole time, and it is - it - that’s the whole - but the whole premise of this is that trauma in books can be a safe way to process big emotion.

N: Even though the trauma itself is severe. Ok, alright. Ok, that’s fair.

R: Right, yeah. It’s a safe place to process this. These are great books...

N: ...Oh they’re beautiful...

R: ...that - yeah. Uh, you either haven’t read them or you love these books. Like I’ve never met someone who’s ambivalent about Animorphs. I - I’ve met people who were hostile because they just thought they were weird. But... those people didn’t read them, they just looked at the covers. If you read them, and - if you read them, like if you made it past book five and you didn’t quit because of body horror, our - our general survey or casual survey of just knowing people that we’ve talked to, is you either read these and really liked them, or didn’t, or barely read them.

N: I just would like - I would like all of our listeners to know that our Assistant Editor - Senior Assistant Editor just came up to say hi.

R: Hello Senior Assistant Editor. Uh.

N: She is super excited to possibly have her purring picked up on the mic. We’ll see when I come back to listen to this later.

R: I don’t hear it, so we’ll see.

(55:40)

R: Alright, so Dak, uh.

N: Severe.

R: Um severe. It’s - it’s - it’s…

N: This one I have no qualms about saying severe.

R: ...yep, it’s - it’s severe. Um, ah.

(55:53)

R: Now, is the trauma integral to the plot? Yes? All around?

N: N - no.

R: No, oh. Ok, ok. Cool. So we’ll go one by one…

N: ...Here’s…

R: ...if it’s not yes all around. Oh is…

N: [laughs}

R: ...oh wait Esplin’s is not integral

N: Esplin we had a whole conversation about whether or not it was even trauma.

R: ...Yeah, I guess if we had a whole conversation about whether or not it was in the plot, then...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...it’s probably irrelevant. I would say...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...as like...

N: ...and - and also as a background book, we didn’t need this character here. We…

R: ...that’s true…

N: ...didn’t even need his perspective. We didn’t even need his whole storyline. This is a three narrator book. It could have been a one narrator book.

R: Ok.

N: ...His - he’s irrelevant.

R: That’s a good point. Uh. I...

N: ...Don’t tell him I said that because then he’ll morph something and…

R: [laughs]

N: ...then devour me, but also…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...I - I think it's - I think he’s irrelevant.

R: Yeah, he would hard disagree with you on that, uh.

N: [laughs]

R: He would hard disagree…

N: In this book, he would...

R: ...on you…

N: ...He would hard disagree

R: ...having individuality of any kind.

N: He would hard disagree with me having my own human thoughts still.

R: Yeah.

N: So like, yeah.

R: Yep.

N: I’m - I’m vetoing him. No - ah - yeah. I think he’s irrelevant.

R: Yep. Ah.

N: I think he’s interesting, he makes the book more interesting, but he’s irrelevant to the plot.

R: Oh my goodness. Ok. Alright.

N: Take - take that Yeerk! No, I’m just kidding. [laughs]

R: Uh. I guess as long as the bad things still happened it really didn't matter which of the million Yeerks did it…

N: ...Yep…

R: ...or whether we heard from them. Interesting.

N: Yep.

R: Uh. Oh his big contribution is... I think there’s four of them.

N: Honestly his - his big contribution is just us finding out more of his backstory.

R: Yeah.

N: Like.

R: I don’t know. It’s got like a Forrest Gump, “I was here,” sorta of a…

N: [laughs]

R: ...feel.

N: Yeah but we also - we also kind of learn - we learn a little bit more about the Yeerk hierarchy and structure and...

R: ...It - it builds a bunch...

N: ...slightly more about them as a species. It’s a…

R: ...it builds a lot of cool things about the world but if you only read this book, you didn’t need him.

N: Like - let’s put it…

R: ...You didn’t…

N: ...this way. We - we…

R: ...perspective...

N: ...rated his trauma as moderate. He could have been not a uh - he could have been a not a - a narrator character, and we would have said he is backstory or - or offscreen.

R: Yeah.

N: Like...

R: ...and it wouldn’t have hurt the plot.

N: It - it would have done - it would not have hurt the plot at all. This - this is very much a very cool background story where we’re also peppered in with just a little bit of personal and also species history. Like, he’s irrelevant.

R: Uh.

N: Alright.

R: Alright, we’ve given him enough of our time.

N: {Laughs}

R: No more!

N: Yes.

R: No - more Epslin…

N: ...No more to the - the irrelevant.

R: Mhmm. Other than the other ratings. Ok.

(59:05)

R: Aldrea is - it’s integral.

N: Integral. Yeah.

R: Ok, drives the plot.

R: Alright, uh, Dak Hamee. Also integral.

N: Integral.

R: Uh, was the trauma treated with care. For [Esplin], I think so.

N: I think yes.

R: Yeah it’s...

N: I think yes, and I think - ah - I think yes because we didn’t even get like, this - this - this whole series, all of the trauma is treated with care. Like this - this - this series - and this was in our - our - this will be in all of our content, well it will actually be in our content warning about him even though we didn’t even really like get into it, just as a - a general Animorphs content warning. Um, there’s a lot of body horror in this book. Just a - in this whole series, just a lot. And it’s treated with so much care.

R: Also, we don’t consider that a spoiler because if you looked at the covers of…

N: ...Oh the covers…

R: ...literally any of…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...these, you know that...

N: It’s the whole plot.

R: It - yeah.

N: It’s the whole hook of this series, is that kids transform into animals and we like, read about it happening like, yeah. It - it’s - it’s like Robin said, it’s given away on every single cover and if you flip through, uh, a lot of the books, it’ll - you’ll get to see it and in like…

R: ...On the bottom of the thing…

N: ...flip note form of the bottom of the pages…

R: ...I’m…

N: ...uh…

R: ...reading PDFs for this so I had forgotten about that. It’s like, oh yeah.

N: I - I had - I actually have it in my - my copy of the “Hork-Bajir Chronicles”…

R: ...Oh, yeah, yeah…

N: ...and I pulled it out and was just like, “Yes!” I wish…

R: ...Oh it’s in the Hork…

N: ...more books had things like this.

R: It’s in the “Hork-Bajir Chronicles”, I had just read...

N: ...Yeah, and - and even for as many discussions of it as there are like, I would argue that every single book, it’s treated either with care or with enough care. Like these are not horrif - these aren’t horror books. They’re - they’re like content wise, they should be, but the way they're written? {Meow!} Nope. So, yeah I think it was definitely treated with care.

R: Uh.

(1:02:32)

N: Aldrea. I think, also treated with care.

R: Yeah, and same for Dak.

N: Even that one scene.

N: I - I think Dak was treated with enough. Uh, on - only because of that one scene that we had talked about where he had that whole moment of realization...

R: ...Oh yeah, there’s a lot of…

N: ...Like he has some pretty good - he has some pretty good existential realizations in here and I don’t think they’re traumatic for the reader because I do think they’re treated with enough care, but I think that he definitely goes through them on screen which I think like - I - to - I think those particular topics to have been totally just treated with care would have to have been almost off screen. Or - or in much couchier language.

(1:02:20)

R: Alright, point of view, trauma and aftermath. Our points of view for the three traumas are...

N: Are them.

R: It’s them? Uh, for each of them we get some of the others witnessing their thing.

N: Yes.

R: Um, but like it's - it’s these three characters. We only have their perspective for …

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...each of their things we have the most on their perspective. Uh, weirdly for Aldrea’s we have the most from Dak’s perspective, because Aldrea doesn’t lend a lot of her internal monologue to the stuff that is so problematic.

N: Yeah.

R: So, it - it - in terms of depicting…

N: ...I - fff…

R: ...what we talked about it skews toward Dak but.

N: Yeah, but we also skew toward Dak. [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: I think just as a…

R: ...We skew…

N: ...or I - I’ll - let me - let me be specific. I skew toward Dak.

R: Yeah, yeah, Niki skews toward...

N: ...that was my fault…

R: ...toward Dak, which is fine. Uh, but they are the points of view for the trauma, the aftermath, the everything.

N: Dak - Dak Hamee is my favorite tragic...

R: ...Uh...

N: ….character in Shakespeare

R: ...I…

N: ...literature…

R: ...have…

N: I’m just kidding. He’s not the tragic one. It’s ok.

R: I had a wild left-field take where I wanted to argue that the point of view is actually the narrator in the framing device. But it’s ok…

N: ...But we don’t…

R: ...it’s ok…

N: ...We don’t get…

R: ...It’s a…

N: ...where…

R: ...this is a joke answer. It’s a joke answer.

N: Oh.

R: It’s fine

N: [laughs] I was like, “Could we?”

R: No.

N: No? No. No we can’t. Uh, that doesn’t - yeah. That’s a very good joke…

R: ...Uh…

N: ...but also, I’m - I’m gonna veto it, it’s not an answer.

R: Yeah, uh…

N: ...It’s not an answer.

(1:04:13)

R: Uh, do you have an aspiring writer tip?

N: Yes I do.

R: ...What is it?

N: This is - and I - I do wanna kind - I said this at one point in one of our topics, but I’m going to kind of state it here as - as part of my - my aspiring writer tip. I just want to let our audience know, kind of a reminder, this is a highlight episode, so my aspiring writer tip is geared toward the series as a whole. Uh, and I have read the entire series, a lot, many times in my lifetime. My aspiring writer tip is that subjects and topics and stories that you want to tell don’t belong to specific genres. K. A. Applegate does a very, very, very beautiful job of writing almost a superhero style “save the day, fight the fight,” have, not magic powers, but scientifically magical transformational power - superpowers.

R: Sufficiently advanced technology [is] indistinguishable from magic, that whole deal.

N: Thank you “Babylon 5”, you’ll live forever in my heart.

R: [laughs]

N: Um, eh - that is not a joke. Uh, I love “Babylon 5”, but anyways... K. A. Applegate takes a horror story. It’s a horror story. It’s an “aliens take over humanity” story. It’s a parasites take over sentient - sentient parasites take over sentient hosts, horror story. It’s a bloodshed and warfare horror story. It’s a child warrior horror story. K. A. Applegate takes a lot of horror trope, horror genre stories and turns them into superhero books. It’s beautiful. It’s easy to read. It’s a thing that is - is kind of aimed at middle school ish, but like, when I was in grade school, I had a lot of friends that were reading these already. It’s not traumatic for kids. It’s fun to read. It’s fun to read. It’s beautiful. It’s not a horror story but it is a horror story, but it’s not a horror genre book, and it’s not - and - and this is - I - I don’t wanna give spoilers, but not every ending in this series is happy. And there’s a lot of endings in this series.

R: Mmhmmm.

N: There’s a lot of different plot lines we’re following, and not all of them are happy. They don’t always save the day. It’s not always a success, and it’s still not a horror genre, but it’s a horror story. And I just wanna - to - say like, I - I have a lot… I have a lot of writer - I have mult[iple] - multiple writer friends and I’ve heard a lot of times from different various writers, whether I know them personally or now, that sometimes it’s very, very hard to put our your writing, when you’re not writing that thing that you know is expected of you, especially when you set out to write this genre. You feel like there are rules that you have to subscribe to, and my - my writer tip is that you don’t have to follow those rules. If you have a story you want to tell, and you have a genre that you want to tell it in, they don’t have to match. They really don’t. And this is a very good example of it being done incredibly well. So, that’s - that’s - that’s my tip for this series, is you know, if you wanna write the story; do it. And - and it’s possible to write it in the genre rules and still tell your story from a different perspective, or a different genre. Go for it. Write the story you wanna write.

(1:08:43)

R: Favorite non traumatic thing about this book?

N: About this book?

R: Yeah.

N: Uh, I want you to go first because I am curious if we’re gonna end up with the same one, even though I think we won’t.

R: Um, uh, I...

N: ...Oh, did you not have one yet?

R: I - I was taking a minute ‘cause I didn’t have one yet.

N: Ok.

R: What do you have?

N: Sorry. So I had two.

R: ‘Kay.

N: If that’s - if that’s permissible.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Uh, my first one is just like, I really like the description of the Hork-Bajir’s planet.

R: Mhmm.

N: “Squished like a ripe ooka melon.”

R: [laughs]

N: And I had this - I have a mental image...

that I have held onto, because it’s also described as being...

I think red…

R: ...yeah...

N: ...on the outside, with like deep blue interior, so I’ve always in my head kind of pictured a cantaloupe with a red rind and it’s been stepped on so it’s cracked open, and the orange pulp inside is actually blue.

R: Oh, huh. Ok.

N: That was my childhood image when I read this book, and I think it is - oh, and I should add, floating in space, inside an asteroid belt for some reason, that’s what like, twelve year old me or whatever, thought was great.

R: Well, they did mention asteroids, so...

N: Oh did they - so I didn't pull that out of…

R: ...It was an asteroid that smashed it…

N: ...Oh that’s…

R: ...and made it look like that…

N: ...you know what? That is…

R: ...That’s not out of nowhere. That’s probably why…

N: ...that is - that makes sense as to why I would have hooked onto that imagery.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah, I - I just had this picture of a cantaloupe that had been squished, and popped open…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...and for some reason I just really like that picture. I think it’s pretty. I wish I - maybe someday I’ll try and paint it or draw it ‘cause it’s very vis[ual] - it’s very vivid in my head. Uh, my second favorite thing - favorite non traumatic thing about this book is I really just love Dak Hamee showing Aldrea how to fly through the trees. And it’s just - I just really…

R: ...It’s really cool…

N: ...it’s really cool. I love the descriptions of how the trees are and function and how they are and function and... without spoilers I just want to say I just really like how Dak Hamee is portrayed and how that fun thing is portrayed and I - I think it’s a beautiful moment.

R: I thought of a thing - technically not traumatic…

N: ...Oh, usually I’m the...

R: ... I really like the description

N: ...one saying that. This is a - this is a twist…

R: ...I really like the description…

N: ...A turn…

R: ...of all of the monsters that the Arn created.

N: Oh [laughs]

R: Especially the one that is three feet tall and twenty…

N: ...and twenty feet wide [laughs].

R: ...wide. And that’s - and it’s got - and it’s got mouths. And that’s what we know about it. Um…

N: ...Ok. if anybody, I just want everyone to know…

R: ...Also…

N: ...if anyone…

R: ...one of those creatures is the morph from book eleven!

N: Yes! Yes.

R: Ahhh.

N: Yes it is, yes it is. Yep.

R: So.

N: I - I just wanted everybody to know that when Robin is talking about that, uh, twenty foot wide, three feet tall monster, uh, if anyone has seen the Monster Factory series by Polygon, the Spore episode where the [laughs] - Griffin makes a creature that is just a tube with like a lot of mouths and it drifts into food, that - it’s that - my mental image is like that except no spikes and giant, and not a one cell doors - it’s not - its not a one cell but it’s - they’re microscopic at that point, ‘cause it’s horror, it’s like stage one. But yeah, that - that’s - I - that’s my mental image for that.

R: Alright, that’s all I have. Did you have anything else?

N: No.

R: If not, then we’ll say goodbye to our listeners.

N: Goodbye listeners.

R: Goodbye, and please join us in a fortnight. We are so happy to have you. Bye!

Outro: Begins at 1:13:02.

[Musical Interlude]

R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.

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R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.