Virtual Vandals
Highlight 3
A Highlight from Tom Clancy's Net Force Explorers Series, by Diane Duane
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
This fortnight we’re discussing “Virtual Vandals” by Diane Duane. This is book one of the series "Tom Clancy's Net Force Explorers".
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:02)
R: Hello everyone! Since this is either a highlight, a stand-alone book, or the first episode in a series, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, we do not read books about real people, and we are not reading historical fiction. The second rule is that we are basing our analyses off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, nor the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (1:02-1:06)
Plot Synopsis (1:06-1:36)
N: Today we are discussing “Virtual Vandals”, book one of the “Net Force Explorers” series, created by Tom Clancy and Steve Pieczenik as a spin off series from Tom Clancy’s “Net Force”. This particular book was ghost-written by Diane Duane. “Virtual Vandals” takes on class warfare, vandalism, and being held accountable for your actions, even when you think you are above the law, and also has some very cool depictions of what virtual reality could look like someday.
Factions (1:36-2:26)
N: Hi, I’m Nicole.
R: And I’m Robin, and this is Books That Burn. Today we are talking about “Virtual Vandals” by Diane Duane, which you would not know from looking at the cover, because it boldly declares that it is from Tom Clancy’s Net force Explorers, but [the]author for this particular book is Diane Duane. Let’s get into our factions. We have Matt, Leif, David, Sandy, CeeCee also known as Cat, Gerry “The Savage”, Serge, Luc, Rob, Sean McArdle, Captain Winters and various family members of the Net Force Explorers.
Topic 1: Stunted emotional growth. Begins at (2:26), CW for discussion of classism and classist perspectives.
R: For our minor character spotlight, we had a collection of people who all have stunted emotional growth due to... in this book being rich kids who haven’t had it matter whether they have emotional growth.
N: Um, I think it goes - it’s not just because they’re - they’re rich kids.
R: And all - yeah it’s not - it’s not just that. That’s explicitly called out as a reason within the text.
N: Yeah, so they...
R: ...But...
N: ...there’s a - there’s a set up here where some of these kids are, you know the - the children of entrepreneurs or inheritances from entrepreneurship in the past. Or, diplomats’ children especially, or people - or - or government official’s kids who those particular government official’s have made - made bank on whatever nefarious things they do. And, uh, specifically these state - these kids are taught - they talk about in - in one particular conversation, they highlight how those parents' lives are - are more important than their children’s growth and development. So yes, these kids have rich kid syndrome where, you know, when they’re not taken care of they lash out, and they do not have the emotional maturity or empathy for other people, and they physical - either physically or because a lot of this book is online, virtually hurt other people, but a - a big, big part of it here is that that - that root cause of - of just abandonment and neglect emotionally. Like these kids are fed, and clothed, and housed, and physically cared for, but if they have problems or if they have things that they just don’t know how to handle, or they have, you know, situations where they need to learn how to be emotionally mature, or functionally - functionally mature, or know how to, you know, just be - to empathize with - with other people. They’re not given that - that upbringing. They’re not given that - that, um, uh, that emotional structure, from their families...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...and it - it’s - it’s a very much - it’s very - I think it’s - personally I think it does a - this book does a really good job. There’s only really one conversation where the characters explicitly talk about it on screen so to speak...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...but it does a very good job of highlighting exactly how much that is a contributor to their behavior, and - and how much they - the things that they do to lash out stem from that - that frustration of feeling like they are - they are unimportant, or the only thing important is that their families have money.
(5:23)
R: Yeah, and this ends up applying to not just the rich kids in the antagonist group, but also...
N: ...All of them...
R: ...one of the rich kids who is part of the Net Force Explorers, um, like...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...he pulls, like, pranks to get his parent’s attention. Um.
N: Yeah, yeah, this is a...
R: ...He...
N: ...very much an Explorer thing.
R: Yeah. It’s - it’s not - it’s not something that only the antagonists have.
N: No, no.
R: And, even - even to the point...
N: ...It - it does set up...
R: ...that - I was gonna say, even to the point that like, the main behind the scenes antagonist isn’t even one of the rich kids, like that’s...
N: ...No...
R: ...how much it didn’t do this divide, is that it actively negates that.
N: Yeah.
R: Which it would have been a very, very easy way to set up a bunch of villains. Um...
N: ...Yes. Yes...
R: ...and it didn’t do that.
N: And - and Leif actually, who is our - our rich protagonist, there’s a little bit of conversation there with him and Matt talking about that and - and he kind of - it kind of explicitly a little bit too kind of draws that line of base- basically saying like, “This - this could be me, except,” and then he almost like - he almost says like, “This could be me except that I try to make sure my - my pranks don’t actually hurt people.” Or like, you know, “This could be me except that I - I don’t want to hang out with those people because they’re all shallow and I know that I - I am that way too.”
R: But even in that conversation there’s a bit of an old - there’s an old money, nouveau riche divide, where part...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...of why he can’t get in with them is because he isn’t rich enough….
N: ...Yeah, or...
R: ...in the right way.
N: Yeah, or like he has enough numbers-wise, but it’s because his fam - his immediate family made that money, not like his great-great-grandparents and so it doesn’t count. And like there's - there’s this really - it - it just - it does a very good job of kind of pulling that out of context, and saying “Hey, part of this is not just,” like part - there’s - there’s a real thing where uh, the more money you have, the less you have to participate in society so to speak. The less you meet and see and talk to and hang out with people who are - who are not of your - like if you have that amount of money, you don’t really hang out with people who actually have like problems and struggles that your money could fix or that you don’t have because you have this resource.
R: So when you have those problems, you fix it with money, or those problems never occur.
N: Just never appear, yeah, and there’s very much a - an empathy disconnect, um, but also it is true that like this is not just for - for rich families, but it is also kind of a thing where you know if your family is - is more well off and the parents are super focused on that thing instead of on their children those children are very - are - are more often just, you know, neglected, or their emotional wellbeing is handed off to other people.
(8:35)
R: Right.
N: And this book does a - just does a really good job of kind of pulling that out of context, and saying “Hey, this happens to these kids,” and Robin’s right, it doesn't just happen to our - our - our main villains so to speak. It's also - it’s also one of our - one of our good guys.
R: Yeah. I did think it was interesting that Luc is in a - in a strange position because he’s not rich enough for the rich kids, but he’s too rich...
N: ...No, not Luc...
R: ...for the poor kids. Hmm? My apologies, Leif. Leif is too rich for the rich - is too rich...
N: ...I think it’s Leif...
R: ...for.
N: Like Leif Erikson?
R: Leif? Ok. Um, alright, Leif is uh, too rich to have the same problems as his friends but not rich enough to be in with the rich kids.
N: Yeah.
R: And so it makes him an interesting bridge character because it seems like he’s got a lot of cognitive dissonance, because he’s like, “Well, I can see how these maybe could be problems, but it isn’t a problem for me, and also…”
N: ...Yeah...
R: “...I - I know you maybe don’t think this is a problem, but I promise you it’s a problem that I don’t have the right kind of lots of money,” And, if you don’t...
N: ...Well, I...
R: ...have lots of money, someone complaining about not having the right kind of lots of money, can come off very badly. Now, this - this book doesn't have that be a source of tension between them, but I - I...
N: ...Well, I - also the conversation isn’t really that.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s - it’s Luc - not Luc. I - now - now I’m saying it...
R: ...Leif...
N: ...Uh, Leif - it doesn't - so I would actually argue that Leif doesn't have a cognitive dissonance there, because in that conversation he’s pretty explicit with saying like - like “This is a problem in their eyes.”
R: Ok.
N: There’s - there’s no point in that conversation where Leif says, “This is a problem for me,” only just that - because Matt originally goes to him and says basically, “Hey, you have money, can you get me in with the other people who have money? And Leif is in this conversation trying to explain to him like - like “I can tell you how to,” yeah, like basically saying like, “From your perspective, my family has money, but from their perspective I don’t count anyway.” Um, but also he gives him kind of like - like his tips and his virtual physical avatar that is his - is his in, into the group um, and so...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...he kind of does kind of pass along like his own tips and tricks for basically surviving that world, so to speak, but - but there's no...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...there’s no point where that character says, “This is a real problem and you don’t know ‘cause you’re poor,” no, he’s very - he’s very, very clear about that distinction between - like that perceived level of an issue and how much like - like people are gonna see it differently because they care about those different things. Um.
(11:40)
R: Yeah.
N: Now, it’s - it’s not framed as - in that conversation it’s not framed as rich people are villainous because they don’t understand real problems, like that's not what the conversation is. The conversation is just, “They have different rules, so I can’t just give you like a ticket to get you [to] like function in this world, ‘cause I don’t even have one,” It’s - it’s actually very, very nuanced and very, very well done, especially for being such a short conversation, like the wording choice in these conversations are so precise, which, eh - I - I think it does a good job with that especially for...
R: ...So I think...
N: ...a conversation being really short.
R: Part of why I’m getting mixed up is I cannot remember who Luc is.
N: Luc the frog man, the frenchman….
R: ...Oh! Oh yeah...
N: ...the guy who’s the avatar, who is a giant frog and then transforms into a rapier man because...
R: ...Oh ok...
N: ...he was a swordsman. That’s who Luc is.
R: So earlier, before recording when I asked about Leif and you said - ok. That makes sense.
N: Yeah, ‘cause you asked if Leif was there, and I was like, “No.”
R: And then I got Luc - Luc and Leif mixed up, and anyway, we’re - we’re good now.
N: [laughs] Yeah, yeah ‘cause - ‘cause Leif - Leif has - Leif has neurological damage...
R: ...Right...
N: ...from that crash and can't be part of...
R: ...Right...
N: ...the investigation. Which actually is the like, in-character reason for why Matt is the one going after this and not the person who's already in like, scene.
R: Right, ‘cause he can’t go in. Ok.
N: ‘Cause Leif physically can’t like, go online, like.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: Before we leave this, one…
N: ...Yes...
R: ...one thing that is definitely a message in this book is that being emotionally mishandled by their parents is not an excuse for all the bad stuff that this group is doing. Like...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...the girl - it - it both doesn’t make them a - doesn't make them villains just because of that, which would have been very easy to do, and it - but - and it also makes sure to say, “Hey, no this is still a problem. This is bad. This doesn’t make them…”
N: ...Yeah [laughs] like just because you have problems, doesn't mean you get to take them out on everybody else because you’re mad, like that’s...
R: ...Like, I don’t...
N: ...not…
R: ...I don’t...
N: ...that’s not an excuse for your behavior here.
R: Like I don’t know if the phrase “Hurt people hurt people,” was around in the late ‘90’s when this was written, but it - and I don’t think it was, but if it had been that is the message of this book. That is one...
N: [laughs]
R: ...of the messages of this book.
N: Yeah, yeah, and also hurt people who have the money to hurt people without repercussions will use that money to do so, I think is...
R: ...Oh absolutely…
N: ...another - another message there.
R: Definitely.
N: But - but then again, you know, kind of like you mentioned before uh, like, we do have an example of a character who is literally dirt poor and living in - in kind of a dump almost.
R: Do we know that from this book? I know you know more ‘cause you’ve read more of the books.
(14:41)
N: Uh, no he doesn't appear in any of the books, but they literally take them to the dump site, and they have jury-rigged like...
R: ...Oh...
N: ...storage containers for their hideout, like they’re not living in a house.
R: Oh Rob, ok. Ok.
N: Yeah.
R: Ok.
N: But also he was...
R: ...Ok...
N: ...canocially um, poor and failing out of school and having struggles before he left.
R: Right.
N: And he is the main - he - he is the power - behind the power so to speak, so like it’s - it’s definitely not a - it’s not a book where it’s like “money bad” [laughs]...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...Necessarily. But it - but it also talks about those - those - those nuances and those - those- those mitigating factors and how people are treated and...
R: I kind of wonder how much of this is also the age of the protagonists and - and antagonists. Like it doesn't go into it ‘cause they’re all potentially on the same “We are still in our teens and that part of our brains isn’t developed yet” point” But…
N: ...Uh…
R: ...even - even in comparison to the other kids, these kids don’t have the...
N: ...Well...
R: ...emotional - they...
N: ...I - I would - I don’t know - I mean maybe the risk taking like...
R: ...Oh yeah...
N: …”Sure, we’ll use your program and do - we don’t know what it does. But sure whatever,” like that might definitely be a part of it, but as far as like the - the actual vandalism and the actual like, disregard for other people, I don't think really has anything to do with that.
R: Ok.
N: Like.
R: But - but yeah, the - the risk taking behavior.
N: Yeah I - I would - that would - that would make sense, that because they’re like, freshman, sophomore, somewhere in High School, somewhere in there.
R: Yeah.
N: Sure, like the risk taking behavior can be part of it.
R: For international listeners, freshman / sophomores are shorthand for probably fifteen to seventeen years old.
N: Somewhere in there is. Well...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...freshman, sophomore will be fourteen to sixteen, but…
R: ...Sorry, fourteen to sixteen yeah.
N: Yeah, but they’re - they’re solidly in high school and not graduating anytime soon.
R: Yeah.
[Musical Interlude]
Topic 2: Threat of physical harm. Begins at (16:52), CW for vehicular manslaughter, threats of murder.
R: Moving on to threats of physical harm.
N: So we have two pretty distinct, separate things here. Um, actually I wanna talk about the one we labeled second, first.
R: Ah, but you had me put it second.
N: No, no.
R: Alright of the main premise - what?
N: Uh.
R: Oh, oh in the subheading, uh...
N: ...Yeah, in the subheading...
R: ...So...
N: ...I wanna talk about the actual IRL one before we talk about the...
R: ...Absolutely...
N: ...virtual one...
R: ...so - so with Matt, CeeCee, Luc and Serge are threatened with death and they get actually kidnapped, uh.
N: And - and Gerry for the record, does actually die off screen.
R: Yeah.
N: So...
R: ...Gerry...
N: ...Yeah...
R: … als - Gerry is uh, murdered uh, with a car. He is run over, and we don’t get - I don’t remember if we get a whole lot more detail than that in term - we get emotional...
N: ...Mmhmm..
R: ... “Oh no, he’s dead...
N: ...I think that’s all we get...
R: ...He’s...
N: ...I think we just get [sighs].
R: Like, there’s no descriptions.
N: No.
R: It’s just, “He was hit with a car and killed.”
N: Yeah that’s it.
R: Um, and eh - in - in the text the fact that he has been murdered off screen, to me seemed to function mostly to make Matt see - see Luc and Serge take their kidnapping seriously, um, like it - that's not the only thing it’s doing. That seems like a main thing that it was doing.
N: Yeah, uh, yeah. Say, plot wise it definitely serves for - that function. Tactically though, uh, him being gotten rid of was very much a “Get rid of the person…”
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: “...who is physically likely to fight back in real life with…”
R: ...Yeah...
N: “...even without a weapon.” There’s - like there’s a lot of - there’s a lot of big bad plot tacticaly pressure reasons that he was the person killed and also that someone was killed, like, there’s some very functional like, villain reasons that it happened.
R: Sure.
N: But as far as like, main character concerns, it - it definitely is a push to get him to - to - to - to hook up with...
R: Yeah, and when we’re focusing on the way trauma is handled with the characters…
N: ….Mmhmm...
R: ...and...
N: ...We’re talking about character...
R: ...not as much on the [plot]- right.
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah. Matt - ‘cause even - ‘cause it has an emotional impact on Matt, even though he is not Gerry’s friend. So like...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...CeeCee, Luc, and Serge are dealing with their compatriot, and I don’t know to what degree “friend”, but at minimum, like...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...um...
N: ...Uh, I would say they’re...
R: ...compatriot...
N: ...friends..
R: ...conspirator...
N: ...they’re - they’re friends, because the whole...
R: ...I don’t….
N: ...CeeCee - CeeCee recruited her friends to go have fun trashing virtual spaces in the first place.
R: Oh, ok.
N: Like this was not a...
R: ...Yeah so...
N: …“Go find expendable people,” this was “Go get people you like, and trust,” and she was like, “These guys,” like [laughs]
R: Ok, yeah I...
N: ...They’re friends...
R: ...I wasn’t sure if it was...
N: ...They’re solid friends...
R: ...I wasn’t sure if it was expendables or [a] friend group. So - so like they all are upset that their friend is dea, but Matt is also upset because if this person is willing to murder, and then kind of...
N: [laughs] ...Yeah...
R: ...brag about it...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...then that - that means he’s more likely to maybe kill one of them and it could be Matt. So it - it - it definitely ups the danger level, but it - it ups the danger level but to me while also treating Gerry as literally disposable in terms of the plot, it was like, “Yeah, yeah. You can die off screen.” Like I don’t know if I would have...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...wanted a gory scene where one of them sees him getting hit by a car, like I don’t - that would have been out of - that would have been out of tone I think with the rest of the book, for that to happen.
N: Yeah, this is - this is very much a, upper-elementary, lower-middle-schooler story.
R: Yeah.
N: Like that would have been...
R: ...but like...
N: ...that would have been a lot, um...
R: ...to do.
N: Yeah, and - and especially...
R: ...And also...
N: ...when you’re saying like it - it would have been very out of tone. There - there are books that have - like we reviewed “Animorphs” before. Like there’s books that have that but they’re like that all the time.
(21:11)
R: Right, but - but Gerry getting fridged like this [laughs]...
N: [laughs]
R: ...just...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...just like “Oh and by the way, Gerry is dead.”
N: Oh I will say this, Gerry, not CeeCee.
R: This is true. This is true.
N: From a trope perspective, much better.
R: From a tr - from a trope perspective, yeah killing off the only female character with...
N: ...Kill - killing off not the only female...
R: ...Yeah.
N: [laughs] Like, yeah.
R: Yeah, like killing off the only female character worth more than four lines would have been bad. Um, I’m glad that didn’t happen, but even that I - even that I care more about the trope of which one of them died, versus the actual character, to me I didn’t...
N: ... I mean, you’re not supposed to like Gerry.
R: I - right.
N: He’s literally...
R: ...But Matt...
N: ...literally a “Punch you in the face because I have anger issues, and I have the money to make it so I won’t get put in jail,” villain.
R: Villain, yeah.
N: Like you’re not gonna care.
R: Like if he...
N: ...Like he’s not built up to be empathetic.
R: Like he’s not even like...
N: ...No...
R: ...mustache - he’s not even mustache-twirling-...
N: ...No...
R: …-interesting. He just - he is - he’s punchy threat guy.
N: Yeah - yeah.
R: Um.
N: Like - like tactically as far as, uh, Luc - no not Luc. Tactically as - now - now I’m calling everyone Luc now that you called Leif Luc. Arrgh.
R: Ha!
N: Tactically as far as Sean uh - as Sean is concerned - no not Sean. As far as Rob is concerned, he is the - the - the physical threat that they would need. And - and also he’s the least likely to be cowed by like, one of his compatriots dying demonstratively. It - I mean his in cannon, in book, in universe nickname is ‘The Savage’ ‘cause when he gets mad he beats up people because he knows...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...he won’t get in trouble for it, like he’s not the character that you’re gonna find out he has died, and go “Oh no. My heartstrings,” like no. He’s - he’s set up to be unlikeable.
R: I do feel - I do feel like having his name be Gerry Savage, and having his nickname be ‘The Savage’ was a little on the nose from the author but, okay.
N: I feel like the nickname came out of hte - out of the - oh...
R: ...Oh…
N: ...from the author. Yeah.
R: Right, from the author.
N: [laughs]
R: Yeah, if you’ve got this - if you’ve got your friend who punches people and their nickname - and their last name literally is savage, of course you’re gonna.
N: [laughs]
R: That makes sense. Um...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...but hav[ing] - but naming him savage and then having his nickname be ‘The Savage’...
N: [laughs]
R: ...is a little on the nose. Um.
N: That - that’s like...
R: ...We did have...
N: ...Uh that’s like - that’s like - that’s like um, having one named Mike the Murderer. “What’s his last name?” “Oh, it’s death.” “Whoa, what?” Yeah, ok.
R: [laughs]
N: Cool.
R: Yeah. Uh, we do have another kind [of] uh, harm, physical harm, threat of physical harm in a very interesting way. Um, one of the main premises for this book is that virtual physical harm, so getting punch or shot, in the virtual - in VR, is now able to cause real brain damage because your brain - the explanation was that your - your brain thinks you got hurt, and isn’t able - part of it is that’s it’s not able to reconcile...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...being hurt and not being hurt, and so it just thinks you’re hurt, and it freaks out and shuts down, in different ways.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, but isn’t there also something - oh, later on there’s - there’s more...
N: ...Later on there’s...
R: ...We’ll - we’ll talk more about the neurological damage, but...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...it - it means that s[?] - it means that Gerry is able punch people in the real world and in the...
N: [laughs]
R: ...virtual world...
N: ...and in the virtual space, yeah.
R: And - yeah. He can punch people all the time, um.
N: [laughs]
R: Like we’re introduced to these villains with them uh, have - doing a - a massacre in a virtual ballpark.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, and it went from maybe you can have a bad thing with your connection or - there - there’s ways to have something go wrong where connecting to VR can hurt you, but it went from an occupational hazard to a weapon that someone is wielding...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...against random people who were at a virtual ballpark to watch a virtual game.
Topic 3: Neurological damage. Begins at (25:39), CW for physical danger, shock, and brain damage.
R: Moving on to neurological damage. You had a lot of things about this one.
N: I have a lot of thoughts on this one. Yeah, so uh, kinda coming out of our second topic, for anyone who skipped that one, the - so a lot this book’s premise is based on VR being how the... kind of almost the default internet. Like there are non VR but still online options that people still utilize day to day, but the vast majority of the things that are on screen um, so to speak, are - are in this virtual reality where you as an internet user are actually plugged into an interface, but you’re in VR, but your brain is in VR, not just you seeing it with your eyes. Uh, which - which is - you know when we - so when we say VR we don’t mean that things are in 3D, and we don’t mean that things are just like, you just have glasses on that let you pretend that things are in 3D, like - like in this - in this series you actually plug in so to speak, into the matrix, and so when you’re physically there you can do things like pick up the uh, the google search icon which, is not an example from the book, but it’s a, you know pulling from a real world example you would like, pick up your search engine or pick up your - your podcast recording app, or whatever, but you would - you would physically touch it, physically handle things. Uh, people feel pressure on their fingers. You feel a tug as you’re being pulled through to a destination on the internet. You physically grab icons and you can touch them and move them with your hands in a very tactile, very sensory way. But there are also, uh, limits to this, and buffers, and um, programming and functional uh, I would even go as far as to say hardware and software on your hardware, not just virtual programing, but like functional safety protocols that kind of filter. So, like you can physically touch and physically pick your - your internet explorer so to speak, but if you get punched in the face, you don’t get hurt. That’s how this world is kind of set up. The thing that happens in this book, the big problem is that the - the main antagonists have some kind of programming that allows them to override those security protocols. So, when you get punched in the face, your brain does actually think you got punched in the face, and the nerves in your head react to reflect that. You don’t actually come away with like - like physical body damage, like you don’t, you know...
R: ...Like you’re not gonna get...
N: ...you don’t just have a...
R: ...random bruising...
N: ...bruise, yeah. Exactly, but you’re brain is functioning as though you have been - you have taken that injury, and so uh, in the beginning of the book, when we have people that are shot in virtual space with virtual bullets that do real physical damage - impact damage, we actually have people going into shock because their brain thinks that they have been shot, and that’s kind of the big like the big shift here in - in this story. Which is a scary thing, ‘cause you know if you - if you’re supposed to have security protocols that keep you relatively, mostly safe, most of the time, at least safe from intentional impactful damage, suddenly finding out by virtue of getting, you know, shot by a cartoon bullet that you can - you can end up with like, real world consequences, that’s terrifying. Uh, do you have any thoughts on that half of this before we go on to the other one?
(29:23)
R: Uh.
N: I know - I know that this is a section that like, you - I know this is mostly my opinions.
R: Yeah, I - I didn’t have a - so, the - the one thing is, if you - if you go to read this and you start with just this, because - so - so - so within the world of the story, it is a new thing that people are able to do this, but from my perspective, on page two people are able to do this and then they’re able to do this for the rest of the book, and so for me, not already having read any other “Net Force” books, not having read anything else by Tom Clancy before this, um, and even technically Tom Clancey didn’t write this, but not having read anything in that zone previously, I didn’t experience “We have a paradigm shift. Why can they do this? They never could do this before,” which you’re clearly meant to feel...
N: ...I mean...
R: ...and it didn’t - at least...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...a little bit, but like for me it was like, “Oh cool. This is the state of technology...
N: [sighs]
R: ...on page 102. Excellent,” Um...
N: ...I mean I feel like it is...
R: ...this makes...
N: ...Actually - I actually didn’t feel like...
R: ...It does - it doesn’t say...
N: ...it was setting it up for you to be shocked. I felt like the book was...
R: ...Yeah.
N: I felt like the book was using this to kind of tell you what the technology was like. So that you know right away that you’re supposed to physically touch things but it’s not supposed to hurt you. Like, that what - that was how I read it even back when I first read this series. It’s like, “Oh! Ok.” [laughs] Like, “You’re here in - you’re physically here but you’re not supposed to get hurt,” like, you know. ‘Cause - ‘cause then it makes - it makes like the - the - the descriptions later in the book of like feeling a physical tug when you grab something or holding someone by the hand or like it - it - it makes those physical sensations suddenly something that you’re already thinking about as a reader, instead of it...
R: ...Right...
N: ...kind of just happening. I don't know. That was my…
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...read on it.
R: But just know, if you experience it as a paradigm shift because you’re already familiar with the world before this changed, cool. If like me you - you didn’t and this is just where we are, this is where we are. It does a pretty good job of conveying it, um, yeah, it - I did wanna mention that because it gets - to me it felt like it was trying to say, “Oh no! This has never been a problem before,” and I’m like, “This has always been a problem from my perspective, but ok cool. We only have one page where it wasn’t a problem yet, it’s fine. Ok, we’re here now.”
N: So, yeah, makes sense. Um, so the other...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...the other part of this too is kind of just - a - the main character experiences this once, but it’s also just kind of thrown in like a, “Oh yeah, that’s not an occupational hazard,” like, “Yeah, we, you know, this is a problem, but I have ways to deal with it,” is that when you have a system crash the - it’s kind of described as almost the - the VR equivalent of the blue screen for your device, except it’s...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...not that your like system VR chair crashes, like that’s not what’s happening, but like if the virtual space that you are virtually, physically occupying crashes, you get kicked off the net. You don’t get bounced somewhere else. And it - it gives you - like I think they even talk about this when - when Leif has his - [aside to the cat] Princess. Our Senior Assistant Editor is yelling in the hallway. What do you want? [still talking to the cat]
(33:00)
R: She has many opinions about this text.
N: She does. She has a lot of - she has a lot of virtual reality opinions. Princess! [laughs] She - I don’t know if she’s loud enough to get picked up on the mike. Hi honey..
R: I heard it a little bit. I don’t hear it - it anymore. Um.
N: Yeah, ‘cause she - hi sweetie.
R: [laughs] ‘Cause she’s not meowing.
N: Um, yeah, she’s not meowing. She’s right next to me. [done talking to the cat]
R: So, to - to me...
N: ...This is a thing - this is a thing that is kind of treated as like, a “It’s not supposed to happen, because the systems aren’t supposed to crash. The servers aren’t supposed to crash,” and it’s treated as like something that like, actually does injure you, uh, because of when Matt...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...had that happen to him, he talks about like needing to not go online while he still has this one particular headache, because he knows...
R: ...It...
N: ...if he goes back online and something crashes again it’ll actually hurt him longer, and it’s - it’s treated as almost - in the text it’s treated as almost a mild version of - of the shock that Leif goes through that makes him unable to be online for awhile.
R: So I - I have an analogy.
N: Yes.
R: See if this analogy works. So, it would be like if bikes are a thing, and crashing your bike on something is rare but not impossible, it does happen, and it sucks but it’s not - it’s - you need to not bike again immediately afterwards.
N: Yeah.
R: But it - you’ll be ok?
N: Yeah.
R: Like, unless something super weird happens, you will be fine. And all of a sudden someone has cars. And they’re hitting bikes.
N: [laughs]
R: And that is the change that has happened in this book. That...
N: ...That - yeah, that’s a pretty good - that’s a pretty good um...
R: ...Yeah, so like we know what to do if someone crashes their bike, and so when someone’s bike gets hit by a car, he does the things to get Leif taken care of...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...like he had just crashed the bike, but...
N: ...but crashed it into a moving object instead of just on the road, or whatever.
R: Yeah. It’s - it’s very…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...different.
N: Yeah.
R: So...
N: ...it makes sense...
R: ...I think - I feel like that’s a pretty good analogy, so like we knew something that’s a lesser... a bit like this could happen, but this is worse and scarier.
N: Yeah. Everybody...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...is wearing a helmet - everyone is wearing a helmet, everyone has knee pads on...
R: ...Do you wear knee pads to bike?
N: If you crash and you end up like, road-rashing your side, you know, that knee pads won’t protect you, but like you’re prob - you probably will be fine...
R: ...Oh I meant bicycling...
N: ...but if you...
R: ...but yeah...
N: ...get hit by a car - oh no I do mean...
R: ...but yeah...
N: ...bicycle...
R: ...It’ll - it’ll be a...
N: ...I also mean bicycle.
R: Ok.
N: Nobody wears knee...
R: ...Sorry I...
N: ...nobody wears knee pads to go on a motorcycle, Robin.
R: No one wears knee pads to go on a bicycle, what are you talking about? Anyway...
N: ...Bicycles are...
R: ...regardless, how...
N: ...I wear knee pads, I'm just kidding. You just...
R: ...I can’t...
N: ...You just been doing roller derby for too long. [laughs]
R: [laughs] Uh...
N: ...You’ve adjusted...
R: ...so anyway...
N: ...your reality...
R: ...regardless of - regardless of the details of knee pads or not, uh, I feel like in general that analogy works pretty well.
N: Like those safety pro - protocols are your helmet and - and pads, except if you get hit by a car, [it] doesn’t matter anymore.
Promo for Garrett Talks to Himself (36:14)
G: Are you constantly struggling with how to function in society? Do you need someone to make you laugh on occasion? Are you wanting to share your thoughts and opinions? Well, have I got a show for you. My name is Garret, host of Garret Talks to Himself, a segmented interactive podcast where I do all of these things. Head to anchor.fm/gtth to subscribe wherever you listen. I’ll be waiting.
Patron Thanks (36:48)
R: This month we welcome our new supporter on Patreon, Alex Cintron. Thank you so much for supporting the show, and if you would like to join Alex in keeping the show going, you can check us out on Patreon.com/booksthatburn. Thank you.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (37:03).
N: Ok.
R: For the wrap up and ratings. R: For our gratuity rating. For stunted emotional growth. [sighs] So, there’s the actual trauma and then there’s how everyone’s behaving because they have that trauma.
N: Yeah.
R: So I’m not sure how we wanna split this.
N: Um, the actual trauma.
R: We basically don’t have, you know, people talking about it.
N: Yeah, well, I mean.
R: Um. It - it’s a difficult trauma to actually depict in the book. Um, we ran into this...
N: ...Yeah, especially ‘cause our - our people with that trauma are not the ones on - like - like they’re not our point of view characters.
R: Point of view.
N: And we...
R: ...so...
N: ...only ever see them...
R: ...for...
N: ...in virtual spaces, most of - like...
R: So I would say stunted emotional growth, is by definition backstory.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, and then - and I think that’s where we need to leave it, because the other stuff that we could talk about is covered by our other two topics.
N: Yes.
R: Um.
N: I would agree.
(38:12)
R: For threat of physical harm. That is...
N: ...Uh [sighs]...
R: ...off screen? Off screen...
N: ...No, it’s...
R: ...and...
N: ...it’s - it’s not off screen.
R: Well - I - I - that’s why the “and”. There’s a major, major thing that is off screen...
N: ...Ok, yeah..
R: ...and then there is a bunch of moderate to severe.
N: Yeah...
R: ...um...
N: ...yeah. It’s - it’s - it’s definitely - we’ll get into this with our “how much care is taken”, but um, it’s not graphic, but it’s still - it’s still...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...definitely severe traumas, multiple traumas. I - I would go as far as to say, I don’t think there are actually any of this that’s moderate. I think it’s...
R: ...Ok...
N: ...off screen and severe.
R: And the thing that is off screen is off screen, is because if it were on screen...
N: ...It would be...
R: ...it would…
N: ...super graphic...
R: ...make this not appropriate for middle schoolers anymore.
N: Well, it would - it would change...
R: ...Or let - it would make it a very different...
N: ...It would make it a different...
R: ...category...
N: ...book. [laughs]
R: Yeah, like you could still give it to a middle schooler, but yeah.
N: Yeah, it would - it would make this much less light hearted. Yeah.
(39:19)
N: Um, neurological damage. I - I think...
R: ...I actually think this is mild.
N: I don’t think it’s mild.
R: Eh, ok, maybe moderate, like.
N: I - I actually surp[rised] - you’re the one who - who...
R: ...so...
N: ...has had a concussion experience.
R: Right, and he’s fine...
N: ...You think this is mild? [laughs]
R: He is fine after a couple of days.
N: No, he’s not.
R: Wait, Leif? He’s not fine?
N: No! He’s not even fine by the end of the book.
R: Oh, nevermind. If he’s not fine by the end of the book, oh yeah. This is moderate to severe. Sorry, I missed that.
N: Yeah, no he - he has - he has not the same - he actually has very similar restrictions to what you did after your concussion. No screens, low lights.
R: Ok, uh, if that’s what he has, then yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: I probably uh, didn’t pay a lot of attention to that, because I didn’t want to think about it.
N: [laughs]
R: My concussion sucked. [laughs] Uh.
N: Yeah, no this is - this like - this is like not concussion from - from like, blunt force trauma, but this is...
R: ...Like it’s not literally a concussion.
N: No, it’s a…
R: ...or...
N: ...it’s - a similar neurological reaction to having a concussion.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah. I mean...
R: ...Uh...
N: ...it - it reads as though that was the reference point for how - how this character had to...
R: ...Described it, yeah...
N: ...to recoup. Yeah.
R: Sorry, I read another book recently that said some[thing] other than - “Everything’s fine, you just have a concussion and you’ll be cool in a couple of days,” like no you won’t! [laughs]
N: [laughs] Like, no! [laughs] That’s not how this works! [laughs] Yeh, no this - this - this one is definitely - this one is like - I’m - I’m actually pretty sure - I - I don’t - I don’t remember, I - it - it’s been a while since I read book two.
R: Still dealing with it?
N: I think he - I think he’s still - I think this character still is - is like healing, or they...
R: ...Ok...
N: ...talk about how long it took him to heal in book two, I’m pretty sure. Like this is a thing, he is not fine...
R: ...Is it moderate?
N: ...with this. I think - I think it’s - I think because of our two depict - depictions, I think it ranges from moderate to severe.
(41:31)
R: Then, is the trauma integral to the plot.
N: Yep!
R: Yes, the stunted emotional growth is integral...
N: ...Oh my god. I almost just wrote “yes”..
R: ...That’s.. .
N: …’cause I was typing...
R: ...That’s...
N: ...as you said yes. Yeah, it’s integral. [laughs]
R: [laughs] Yeah.
N: It’s definitely integral.
(41:44)
R: Threats of physical harm, is...
N: ...Also integral...
R: ...also integral. Yeah, all of these are...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...integral I think.
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah, really so much of the premise is bound up of the combination of ...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...these three things that if you tweaked very much, it would be a very different...
N: ...Mmhmmm...
R: ...story. It could still fit in this world, but it would be a very different book, um depending on what you changed. [laughs]
N: Well, to be fair there’s a lot of books in this world [laughs] so you could totally swap some things out and still have it function in the world, but yeah. Yeah, all of these are - are definitely very um, very, very integral to the plot.
R: Yeah. Uh.
(41:28)
R: For “treated with care”. Um, for the emotional growth, I...
N: ...I think... yes...?
R: The discussion of it was very blunt.
N: That’s true.
R: Uh, so I do wanna say the discussion was very blunt. And I don’t feel like they were trying to take care.
N: I - I almost feel like - no I think you’re right, like I think...
R: ...I...
N: ...that was a...
R: ...I think it was just no...
N: ...a here...
R: ...care...
N: ...we only have like a page because this book is tiny. We only have like a page for this discussion but we need to have this class discussion.
R: I think it was no care...
N: ...Oof...
R: ...but because it ranges - it’s backstory...
N: ..Mmmm, mhmm...
R: ...and so you’re getting an info dump of backstory to be like, “Here’s why I’m the way I am,” and…
N: [laughs[...Yeah...
R: ...if - if it’s particularly resonant for you, there’s no shield. There’s nothing separating that.
N: Mhmm.
R: So...
N: ...That’s true...
R: ...it’s either just some character description or - it’s gonna - it’s gonna be like, “I’m in this and I don’t - I’m in this photo and I don’t like it,” um.
N: [laughs] I’m in this photo, but it’s a good thing that I only glanced - glimpsed uh, glimpsed a photo out of the corner of my eye, because this was a ten second discussion...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...and moving on. [laughs] Like, yeah.
R: And - and having - having trauma that big treated like - hand - handled in like an info dump?
N: Mmhmm.
R: That's no - that’s not care.
N: Oh yeah, that’s fair.
R: Like you don’t - don’t info-dump that.
N: [laughs] I mean - yeah, just yeah.
R: It’s - well, if you do, it’s - it’s not...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...care.
N: No, that’s fair.
R: So, anyway.
(44:22)
R: Moving on to threat of physical harm. Um, I’d say either...
N: ...Either what? You cut out - ok.
R: Thinking. No, I was just...
N: ...I thought Discord cut out...
R: ...about...
N: ...for a second...
R: ...words. Uh, no - ah. It’s like I don’t wanna say enough care, because I’m having trouble telling because it’s...
N: ...I...
R: ...not...
N: [sighs]
R: ...there are - there are more graphic books but it doesn’t feel like one - once it had the - once it had the severity...
N: ...Mmm...
R: ...level, it didn’t feel like it was pulling...
N: ...It...
R: ...punches from there...
N: ...It...
R: ...in a literal way.
N: I, yeah, well I mean to be fair it had that severity level almost the entire time, just with different characters being the threat.
R: Yeah, like you - you almost - this is an omnipresent element in the book. You never get to escape this, you almost never get a break from it...
N: ...That’s true…
R: ...and when you get a break it’s talking about the next time you’re going to have to deal with it.
N: Let’s - let’s - I would - I would...
R: ...Um...
N: ...argue that - that that makes it not enough, because it’s not treated with no care...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...there are definitely ways that this could’ve been much more graphic, much more in your face, much more just...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...difficult to handle. Every - everything tends to be...
R: ...I don’t feel like care was in mind at all.
N: Well, but - but the way it reads everything...
R: ...I...
N: ...is a single, one...
R: ...sure...
N: ...sentence description that is not super flowery, it just “This threat is in your face,” and then it moves...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...on. It - it… which...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...it’s very bare bones.
R: I think I agree with not enough.
N: Yeah. Like - like if the...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...author had described in loving detail how much of a threat this character was under, then it would just be no care.
R: That would be...
N: ...But...
R: ...right...
N: ...they didn’t.
R: No the - this definitely is not enough because part of having such short descriptors...
N: ...Mmmhmm..
R: ...for everything, means there’s no - there’s no lead in. Like you can’t say, “Oh, maybe I’m gonna need to skip this chapter. Maybe I need to skip that paragraph.” Like there’s nothing that warns you that you might need to skim or that something might be about to get rough.
N: Mmhmm. Yeah, that’s true...
R: ...Uh...
N: ...there’s no - there’s no prep for you as a reader. It just kinda happens.
R: Right.
N: Yeah.
R: So - so not - not enough.
N: Yeah.
(46:54)
R: For the neurological damage.
N: This is a weird one because I think - I would say that it - that when these books were written, this would be counted as taking more care than it is today.
R: Yeah.
N: Only because neurological damage from technology that we are using is a lot more of a[n] actual - not present danger, but it’s a lot more of like a real possibility, now. And like we’re not at the point with what we call virtual reality to be like neurologically plugged into a simulation. Like we’re not doing that. We’re still at like the, “Here, wear a headset and see things,” kind of a point. Like we’re - we’re still at that step. But also, when it comes to - to things like - well like you know, kind of - kind of mentioned like people who have concussions, avoiding screens, avoiding technology because it will exacerbate your condition, that’s a very real modern thing.
R: Mmmhmm.
N: And not that computers and screens didn’t exist when this book was written, but like...
R: I mean just discourse around how our brains can be affected by it.
N: ...It’s just everywhere...
R: ...has advanced so much...
N: ...Yeah.
R: It’s been almost - it has been twenty years since this book came out.
N: Yeah.
R: So...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...even something as simple as we know about CTE now...
N: [laughs] ...Yeah...
R: ...like. I think it’s uh, chronic traumatic encephalopathy? I think that’s it.
N: I would have to...
R: ...Um, I might have the wrong suffix, on the last...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...word. It’s either lophy or sefolightis, CTE, anyway, it’s the - the thing uh, classically in the U.S. at least...
N: ...Mmmhmm...
R: ...American football players...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...get, um.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Getting hit in the head a lot.
N: Which is not, to be...
R: ...uh...
N: ...fair, a um - a technology related thing, but even like, our medical technology has advanced...
R: ...No...
N: ...to the point where, you know, we - we just know more about the damage that people go under neurologically from different things.
R: Right. Just like, caring more about brain damage.
N: Yeah, just in general.
R: Uh, we’re more culturally aware of it. So, with all of that being said…
N: [coughs]
R: ...what do you think for care?
(49:19)
N: [coughs]
R: ‘Cause I don’t - don’t feel like care is in mind, it just feels like he wasn’t [a] point of view character.
N: Um, but he also did have a tiny spike of it, is the thing, of...
R: ...Spike of what?
N: brain - of neurological damage, of a headache.
R: Oh no - no, oh for care, I was...
N: ...I know...
R: ...saying that...
N: ...but I’m saying that even for care, like...
R: ...Yeah..
N: ...that - he had a tiny piece of this thing that was linked to the greater trauma, like, as a “Oh yeah, you know at least I’m not dealing with the a-hundred-fold of this thing, but like, this is a real thing that we have...
R: ...Mmhm...
N: ...that we know how to handle,” like...
R: ...Oh - oh you mean Matt versus Leif.
N: Yeah.
R: Ok, Matt as the main character.
N: Yeah.
R: Ok, um. It - I - either enough or not enough. I don’t - I don't get the feeling with any of these that care was in mind.
N: I think you’re...
R: ...Just going back to that...
N: ...I think you’re right...
R: ...it’s not - it’s not that kinda...
N: ...No...
R: ...book.
N: It’s - it’s a very bare bones, very, very short ver - very - not - not action packed as in like constant combat or whatever, but action packed as in character really, at least, like on screen “in the book”, never really stopped moving like, plot points never really stop happening. Plot never really pauses at any point, and - and - and it’s so short, there's...
R: ...No aftercare...
N: ...no aftercare for really anything, and - and everything...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...everything from sentence structure to the actual length of the book is so - is so tiny and so short that like, putting in care into these things, I mean.
R: Oh, it would slow it...
N: ...It...
R: ...to a crawl. It would make it a totally...
N: ...It would double...
R: ...different text...
N: ...I almost feel like it would be double...
R: ...It would stop the feeling of it being a thriller?
N: ...the book. It might not be quite...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...that bad, but everything is so direct and so stark, and so “Here’s - here are the things that you need to have gotten out of this exchange,” um. Now, that being said, there are some very good, like, class-conscious critiques in here...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...that are very nuanced.
R: Yes.
N: But - but every word, even the new - even the words in some very nuanced conversations are like precise, super precise wording because the character doesn't have time to say it twice. And like, the main character...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...understands their friend and understands the person they’re talking to the first time, because there’s no room in this book for miscommunication.
(51:47)
N: Which - which really...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...is like, honestly, for me personally, like I really love books that are super nuanced and maybe they're lying, and the reader might not know even if the character does, or the other way around or whatever, like I really like - I really like your - you know your - your Robert Jordan who takes, everything is a - is a political maneuver, or whatever, like I really like a lot of books like that, but also a book like this, where it’s like, “Hey, you know what? I kinda wanna read like a teens by-story, and I don’t really care about the plot entry...
R: ...Yeah..
N: ...I wanna - I wanna, you know, I wanna just kind of watch it happen.” Like it’s so direct.
R: So, all that to say, do you think not enough or enough?
N: I - I think - what - well the thing I’m trying to weigh in my mind, is if the directness and the bluntness and the “Here’s your one - sentence, this is what happened, and now we are past it, and you as a reader are not experiencing it for longer than it took you to read that sentence.”
R: Mmhmm.
N: I’m trying to decide how much that counterbalances the subject matter. Because...
R: ...So you’re trying to figure out if brevity is care, in this?
N: Well that’s the thing, brevity is care a lot of times. That’s - that’s actually...
R: ...Right...
N: ...part of the logic. Not - not all of the logic. Part of - part of the logic of this is also giving people a heads up, but it’s part of the reason that trigger warnings are effective. Because they're a single word or phrase. Trigger warnings and content warnings on our - on our podcast, on our episodes.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Part of the reason they’re even helpful is because they’re so short.
R: “If you go further, there will be more of this.”
N: But it’s - but it’s more than that.
R: If you go further there will be more of this. We say the minimum to convey...
N: ...Exactly, like they’re...
R: ...this thing...
N: ...in - even - even in our content warnings, brevity is care, and - and - and I don’t know. It’s - it’s just hard because, like the - of these three traumas...
R: ...In...
N: ...the one that resonated with me as a middle schooler the most would’ve been the - the threat of physical harm. ‘Cause like the - the stunted emotional growth, that’s tied so much into classism that like as an adult I read it and go, “Oh, there’s like seven layers here,” but as a kid that - that was not a thing that was in my like, wheelhouse, like. I did not have experience with, with those people...
R: ...So...
N: ...so what - when I was reading it, but even then like - like a threat of physical harm is not really something that really is like - [sigh] it - it doesn't set off those - like reading it doesn’t harm me, so I’m - I’m not really sure how to...
R: So, I would say that in - in matters like this, when we cannot decide if it’s enough care or...
N: ...We should err on the...
R: ...not enough care for the sake of the ratings...
N: ...Yeah, err on the side of...
R: ...we should say not enough...
N: ...of it being - being worse.
R: Not enough, individual readers might be fine.
N: Yeah like.
R: But.
N: Yeah.
R: We can’t...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...positively state that enough care was taken. And I think we should leave that rating there.
N: Mmmhm.
(54:54)
R: For the point of view. Everything is Matt.
N: [laughs]
R: Matt travels a lot, goes to a lot of places, but...
N: ...Meets a lot of people and...
R: ...Matt is going...
N: ...is in different environments. Yeah.
R: Mmmhm. It’s all...
N: ...All Matt. You know something I would like to do...
R: ...Aspiring...
N: ...at some point that I think would be cool, if we get to - I would - actually, when we get to our one year mark, of episodes that have been published, I would like to go through and count, or catalogue, how many traumas we have listed as each category. Um, ‘cause I think...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...that’d be fun, to see what kind of things we were reading. Anyways, um.
R: Yeah.
(55:38)
N: Aspiring writer...
R: ...Post...
N: ...tip. You said...
R: ...post graphs...
N: ...you had one.
R: I have one.
N: Ok.
R: I have one. Ok, alright. Listen - either listen close or read carefully, depending on whether you’re doing the transcript, or the audio version. Whichever. Ok.
N: Yeah.
R: Listen to me.
N: OOh. [dramatic]
R: Words tend towards having two words next to each other, then we use them a lot, then we add a hyphen, and then eventually everybody gets tired and the hyphen goes away.
N: Wait what?
R: If you...
N: You’ve lost me already...
R: ...this is a linguist track...
N: ...you’ve lost me already on how this is relevant, but that’s ok.
R: Ok, ok. This is a - this is a - this bothered me so much reading this book.
N: I literally can’t even think about what you’re talking about in the book, but continue.
R: Ok.
N: [laughs]
R: On-line is a hyphenated word in this book.
N: Ok.
R: Because it was a hyphenated word...
N: ...Like twenty years ago...
R: ...in the ‘90’s...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and if you are trying - right...
N: ...so if you are super...
R: …trying to...
N: ...pedantic...
R: ...write...
N: [laughs]
R: ...something in the - right, if you’re trying to write something in the - something in the future, a very simple way to make it feel like you’re actually in the future is take some stuff that’s hyphenated when you’re writing, and ditch the hyphen...
N: ...So...
R: ...because either, you’ll look like you’re ahead of the trend, or you will anticipate where your reader is going to be in a decade when they pick up your book and it doesn't have a hyphen anymore.
N: Oh my god.
R: Like, if you read “Alice in Wonderland” and stuff, there’s stuff that’s separate phrases and some stuff that’s hyphenated, and me reading now...
N: [laughs]
R: ...a lot of the stuff that was two words, it’s hyphenated now, and the stuff that was hyphenated is just one word all smushed together. I - I love watching for hyphens in books, and it just bugged me so much that a book set in the future didn’t anticipate that we would say - like they - they took the time to say - to spell, VR, V. E. E. Y. A. R.
N: [laughs]
R: But didn’t drop the hyphen from “on-line”, and I’m like, “You...
N: ...This - this really...
R: …You made the wrong thing futuristic...
N: ...this really annoyed you.
R: So the general...
N: ...Wow...
R: ....the general writing tip, it bothered me so much, the general writing tip...
N: ….The general writing tip is...
R: ...from me...
N: ...just drop...
R: ….is - is hyphens in - in the English language, hyphens...
N: [laughs]
R: ...tend to go away over time because we want to write things more quickly. Like I currently have fights with my word processor where I’m like, “Hello Microsoft, we don’t have a hyphen in that anymore because it has been five years since you did this coding,”
(58:15)
R: Uh, “And that just doesn’t have a hyphen anymore, I’m sorry. It’s smushed together. It’s - it’s one big word now.” So, that’s a thing in English, and if you’re writing books in English, and I - I can only speak for American English, but at least this, hyphens go away. A really easy way to make your book that’s in the future feel like it’s in the future, is to ditch hyphens and hyphenate some stuff that’s a phrase where you can guess that maybe it’s gonna have a hyphen. But for sure, if it has a hyphen now, and your book is more than twenty years in the future, this was a hundred and twenty-five years in the future from when it was published [Robin was wrong about this]. If you’re more than twenty years in the future, ditch some hyphens. That’s - that’s my message to...
N: ...This is - this is…
R: ...hope it helps...
N: ...specifically a “Robin wants to read your book and enjoy it in twenty years,” message I think. [laughs] Not just a...
R: ...Yes...
N: ...writing tip. This is a “Robin doesn't want in twenty years to have a million digital books...
R: ...Like...
N: ...that they just can’t handle.”
R: But the biggest way for me - the quickest way for me to get a mental sense of when a book was read - written is which things are hyphenated or not. Like, that's a thing I passively and sometimes actively track when I’m reading. Like “Oh this must be this old, because this thing is two separate words, or this thing is still hyphenated,” and then I check, and I’m usually within a decade.
N: So - so when this book was… .
R: ...and then when it gets like super far old enough...
N: ...written twenty years ago it could either have been ten or thirty?
R: No, no - uh, like, no.
N: Ok.
R: I - sorry, when - when I say usually within a decade, I’m like “Uh, is this the 1920’s? Oh, oh it’s the ‘30’s, I was wrong,” like...
N: ...Oh, ok...
R: ...it was the ‘10’s. Like somewhere like, just as a general like, how many things are and are not hyphenated gives me as a reader a sense of how old something is.
N: Gotcha.
R: And if you have never thought about hyphens before and I’ve...
N: ...Oh I totally thought about hyphens before...
R: ...a...
N: ...I’ve actually intentionally thought about...
R: ...well, I’m saying...
N: ...this very thing and ditched hyphens when I’m typing online sometimes, for the same reasons, because it’s...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...faster...
R: ...so...
N: ...but also it will never bother me in a book, ever. I just...
R: ...so it - it - it...
N: ...will never care...
R: ...the only reason it bothered me is because this is trying to be in the future, and so it was claiming to be in the future but everything in the writing screamed that it was - that it was older. That it was in my past...
N: ...Yeah, but like…
R: ...and it made it...
N: ...things like that...
R: ...harder...
N: ...things like I tend to chalk up to just the future isn’t the way that you imagine it.
R: Oh yeah.
N: And so like, again, that will never - that will never bother me because, eh, ok. It - they were wrong.
R: There’s some stuff you’re gonna get wrong, but - but if you’re writing a thing and it’s in the future, and you’d like to do just that little bit to help it not feel dated? Ditch some hyphens. That’s - that’s it. That’s my tip. Uh. Yeah.
N: [laughs]
R: [laughs]
(1:01:17)
[By the way Robin was wrong about this being set over a hundred years after the 1990’s]
N: Do you have - full - full disclosure, Robin did not enjoy this book. Robin do you ...
R: ...I did not...
N: ...do you have a favorite - favorite non traumatic thing?
R: I...
N: ...At all?
R: Uh, the most charmingly annoying thing...
N: ...Oh lord...
R: ...that is not traumatic, uh, is that uh, the amount of very specific phrases from the 1990’s that are used and are called out as being from over a hundred...
N: [laughs]
R: ...years ago, specifically in the text...
N: [laughs]
R: ...and it’s not that they know them, and the main character is like, “Oh, I know that one, because I have read the book of slang from a hundred years ago…
N: [laughs]
R: ...like that’s almost exactly...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...what he says. Um, and the thing is, like I know the phrase, the “bees knees”. It’s from like the ‘20’s and it’s part of like; bees knees, cat’s pajamas, there’s a whole bunch of phrases based on, like things with animals, and just the reason I know that phrase is because the bees knees made it to now. Like it actually stuck around.
N: Yeah, we still make...
R: ...And...
N: ...bees knees jokes...
R: ...me saying..
N: ...bee memes.
R: Right. Exactly, like and me saying this, might be how some of you find out it is from the 1920’s...
N: [laughs]
R: ...in the U.S.
N: Yeah.
R: Like, because it actually made it, and so we have this like split where - where the girls in the clique probably are engaging with these phrases in that way.
N: Mmm.
R: And then you have this main character explaining, “Ah, I know what they are talking about. I know the smart, cool kid lingo because I read a book of lingo from a hundred years ago, and that’s how I know what the cool kids are saying now.”
N: I mean, isn’t how everyone gets in with their - no I’m just kidding.
R: When - when - when it’s not in his character that he[‘s] specifically a linguist or specifically interested in language - like if he were a language nerd, I’d be like, “Ok, cool. That’s fine.”
N: How do you know that he isn’t?
R: But when he’s not? It was like, If that’s the way they tried to communicate...
N: ...I don’t actually…
R: ...that he’s a language nerd...
N: ...remember...
R: ... I needed more.
N: There isn’t...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...Robin...
R: ...if - if that...
N: ...room in this book...
R: ...text...
N: ...for more.
R: [sighs]
N: There’s no space.
R: Anyway, however - with the - with the way that it was in this book, uh, it was charmingly frustrating, and non traumatic, and I just - and also, like our sibling’s name is Heather, and so for it to be that movie, where they referenced “Heathers” and I’m like, ok. Hey.
N: I mean that’s - that’s - that does not sound like a writer problem. That sounds like a you problem. Because it is...
R: ...Mmm, it’s fine...
N: ...our sibling.
R: This isn’t the - this isn’t the problem section. This is the...
N: ...Oh ok...
R: ...the favorite non traumatic thing.
N: That’s true.
(1:04:08)
R: And that’s mine, that the like, just this little bit of having what clearly seemed to be an interest in the - be an example in the book of a phrase having made it to a hundred and twenty-five years in the...
N: ...Uh...
R: ...future, and then to have someone not just let it sit, but to call it out as being over a hundred years old.
N: [laughs]
R: And I’m like, “Yeah, I know it is because we don’t use that anymore.”
N: Yeah.
R: Anyway, that’s mine. Uh, you love this book.
N: I do, I like this series.
R: You wanted to read this one. What is your favorite non-traumatic thing in the book.
N: ...It’s actually something I know you disliked. Which is great.
R: That's fine.
N: I really like the, uh - the vir- the image descriptions of how V.R. looks and feels. Uh, it’s just super tactile.
R: Mmmhm.
N: And it makes sense, and it’s streamlined...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...and I liked it. And, I also like that in literally book one of the series, there’s some like highlighted problems and dangers, like it’s not a - it’s not a “Technology is magic, and it works perfectly all the time, and everything is ok,” kind of a series.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Which I appreciate, because...
R: ...Well it would have been easy to do that.
N: It would have been very easy to do that, and there’s a lot of books that I’ve read that do do that and part of the thing that makes the tech in those books not as interesting to me, is because they do that, and so it feels less real, but this book starts out, the series I should say, starts out with technology advances feeling very logical and real. Along with bugs and issues.
R: Hmm..
N: Also I just - I don’t know. I just really like - I like the uh, the - the descriptions of how people utilize programs, and the different like, interfaces that they have for different programs, and the fact that because it’s all virtual, interfaces are programmable, so like, there was one point, and this is not really a spoiler, um, there is one point where a character has a program that the interface is like a virtual racecar, but you - he can use this program for different things, and so like, he just knows what all of the racecar dials and knobs, and readouts mean, but like that program could have looked like anything. There’s another program that looked like a magnifying glass, and you pick it up and look through it and you...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...like, you know, it - and - and it runs the program, and I just - I really like that. I’m a tactile, sensory person. I like that. It makes it feel interesting and also, like something that I would - I - I don’t know, I would love to go online like that. That’d be great. Um.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s not like a super unique take on virtual reality, I just like that it - it - has a very logical, um, set up to it, so.
R: I think that’s it. Thank you so much for joining us, and we’ll catch you in a fortnight.
Outro: Begins at 1:07:00.
[Musical Interlude]
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
N: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.
R: You can leave us an iTunes review, this helps people to find the show.
N: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.
R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.