N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and this is Books That Burn. And we are launching straight into our factions for “The Hunger Games”. Uh, we have Katniss, Peta, Gale, Haymich, Rue, and Katniss and Rue’s [Primrose’s] mother, we have the residents of District 12, President Snow, the residents of the Capital, and in this we don’t really have residents from many other districts.

N: Yeah, not that we’re talking about anyway.

R: Yeah, not that we’re - yeah. They are there, there are 11 other districts.

R: For the minor character spotlight we are talking about Katniss’s mom. I would love to say what her name is, but, she doesn’t get one, and when I realized this and tried to search the internet to see if I just didn’t remember it, I found something about the actress for the movie saying she made one up, so, she really, really doesn't have a name - doesn't have a first name. Talking about widowhood, she grew up as - almost as wealthy as you can be in District 12 without being in the bureaucracy. Uh, well - well-off it seems like, and left her family to marry a poor miner. And then he dies and she's got two kids, and she goes into this depression where she just can’t move. She's so unable to function that she is starving and her children are starving, and we are going to talk more about starving later, um, but as it relates to - to the mom, she - one thing that I really, really appreciate in this characterization of her depression and everything is that when we learn about it, it’s not wallowing in ideation, because obviously Katniss is not having her mom’s ideation, uh, but also by the time we see her, she is doing what she can to help the other people who for very similar reasons are also depressed in District 12, because they also have family dying in mining acci[dents] - accidents, and don’t have enough food, and because she had that apothecary training, she is giving them what she wishes she’d had the resources at the time to give herself, and I really like that.

N: Yeah, that’s - it’s really cool and it’s really good framing, and I also think - I think that the book gives her mother more credit than Katniss does.

R: Mmhmm.

N: There's very much a sense of like Katniss really honestly, and I realize that this is not a topic about Katniss, but Katniss is the point of view here, uh, it - this is, there really is a, a framing from Katniss where she honestly feels like her mom just left...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...died, abandoned them, gave up, whatever, when her dad died, and she really feels like they were - like they were abandoned by their mom...

R: ...She spends the rest of the series...

N: ...and then also their mom was another mouth that she had to figure out how to feed.

R: Yeah, and she spends the rest of the series worried that her mom is gonna go away again, and still need to be fed.

(5:29)

N: Yeah, and so it - it’s interesting because her mom really has this really cool narrative, this really cool story and I - I mean cool, not as in a “Oh wow, look at this”, but as in a, like, like she had this thing that really literally did almost kill her and by extension would have killed her children, that her own inability would have killed her children, and she took it and said “You know what, actually, I’m gonna use the information and training and knowledge that I already had, and I’m gonna keep myself going and also help other people”, and it’s just - it’s done in such a quiet background way, but also like the difference between - I know we’re only talking about book one, but - as we read this series, I know I was thinking about it, thinking about this topic, the difference between her mom’s portrayal of direct visuals of what she's doing and how she's doing it, and what’s going on, from book one all the way ‘til the end of book three, is this stunning character growth.

(6:38)

R: Mmhmm.

N: and it’s really cool, and it’s the kinda thing where like, I honestly, I will - for reasons we’ll get into in a later topic, I will probably not read this series again.

R: Yeah.

N: But if I were going to, I would like to read almost I guess like a short story, that is just the mom’s character growth. I would - I would love to see it - it doesn't even have to be her point of view, it could just be like a birds eye view as she goes from this very, very, very, very, non-functional, barely eating, relying on her 12 year old to hunt and feed them and...

R: ...oh, ‘cause you’re going...

N: ...has been for years, like this...

R: ...You’re going before the book starts, cause she’s not - Katniss is more than 12 when it starts.

N: Is she?

R: Yeah, because the whole thing is that Prue [Primrose] is, sorry that Rue [Primrose] - the whole thing is that Rue [Primrose]...

N: [laughs]

R: ...that Rue [Primrose] is - is 12.

N: Well yeah, but - but starting from when her dad died.

R: Yes.

N: Yeah.

R: And she was still - she was still 11, and so they couldn’t sign up for the Tesserae.

N: Right, ‘cause we get - we get Katniss’ perspective on things and how her mom was back - like even starting then…

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...Even if the book didn’t start then...

R: ...I - I was just clarifying...

N: ...like, the story definitely does start then.

R: I was just clarifying that you would want the hypothetical short story to go...

N: ...Oh, yes, yes...

R: ...back that far...

N: Honestly? I would love to have it - I would love to have this hypothetical short story start when the mom is training as an apothecary.

R: Mhmmmm...

N: And then, meets this person and moves away from a more privileged lifestyle to be with this person and has children and still has this knowledge and then loses that person that she gave up pretty much everything in her life for.

R: Mhmm.

N: And then is at the whim and mercy of her - her then preteen child trying to feed them and keep them functional and alive. And then slowly, you know, building back up and having a business and starting to care for people again, and then ending this series, and I’m not going to spoil how she is at the end of this series, but ending this series and just - as a fully functional human being in a way that - she’s absolutely not in this book.

(9:03)

R: Mhmm.

N: I don’t know. I - I think that - I think that she has this really cool narrative, and I don’t want to say it’s overshadowed by Katniss’ low opinion of her, but I do wanna - I do think that it is very interesting as a - reading it, because both things are there. Both this very cool, almost triumphant character arc, and also, her daughter’s low, low, low opinion of her and just...

R: Yeah. It’s not like...

N: ...It’s both...

R: ...she thinks badly of her, it’s - she doesn’t think...

N: ...no, she does...

R: ...badly of her. Well, ok. She...

N: ...She literally thinks of her as a burden and also useless. She thinks...

R: ...I think...

N: ...awfully bad about her.

R: ...I was… I think the book three characterization of her stuck much more in my head, because she has much better thoughts about her by then. But...

N: Oh yeah. But in book one - in book one she literally thinks of it as, “You are useless, and also I am still feeding you.”

(10:03)

R: Mhmm.

N: Like that’s it. There’s no - there isn't even like a - a positive relationship warmth or compassion or tenderness or - it’s all very, very just “You are another mouth to feed and I hate you because you couldn’t have fed me ever”.

R: Oh that’s true, there’s no dynamic like she...

N: ...There’s no positive relationship dynamic, even a little bit in book one.

R: I was thinking there was, because there’s all kinds of positive thoughts about how the mom taught uh, Rue [Primrose] to do a thing.

N: I mean I guess.

R: Right, do I have the names right, I’ve been saying...

N: I think you flipped them. Rue is not her sister, Prue [Primrose] is her sister.

R: Ahhh.

N: It’s ok.

R: Nope, because Prue [Primrose] is not, Prue [Primrose] is not… I kept mixing them up.

N: Yeah.

R: Dang it. Alright, so for everyone listening to this, Prim - Prim is the sister’s name.

N: Primrose.

R: Yes. I’m sorry that I’ve been saying Rue, I typed it in wrong. It’s Prim. [laughs] No - no need to email us, we figured it out.

N: [laughs]

R: You should edit, you should take me

N: ...No…

R: ...just saying Prim...

N: ...No...

R: ...and edit that in...

N: ...nope...

R: ...over every time I said Rue. No?

N: [laughs] Nope.

R: Dangit. Ok.

N: [laughs] No. No.

R: [laughs] Alright.

N: So, yeah, there’s moments where - there’s moments where her mom is characterized in book one as being helpful toward her sister, but as far as - but there’s no relationship between them that’s anything positive.

R: Yeah.

N: Like, we - we almost get the impression, I don’t think - I mean if any book like this would be to have this line, it would be this one, but we almost get the impression that Katniss would rather just not have to even bother feeding her mother, like, if she could just feed her and her sister then they would be so much better off and her mom… ‘cause she talks about how her mom just takes up food, like that is a think that she says.

R: And I had been thinking that, I had been thinking that there were more positive thoughts, because I had been mixing them up with the positive thoughts about how much Prim was learning to do the thing that their mother was doing.

N: Yeah! There’s a lot of - there’s a lot positive for Prim learning...

R: ...Prim...

N: ...skills that she wishes her mother had never abandoned.

R: Yeah.

N: There’s a lot of that. But again, like, that’s this huge negative indictment on their mom. That’s not a positive thing about the mom.

R: Mhmm.

N: Even if her mom was the one teaching her sister, so.

R: Talking about Katniss and faking a relationship. To be clear in a technical sense they have a relationship, but it is...

N: I mean...

R: They have...

N: They have - they’re faking a romantic relationship.

R: Yes, they’re faking a romantic relationship, they’re heavily implying but not actually having a sexual one, um, with stuff like um, sleeping together in the train car overnight, like different things that make everyone think that they’re doing more.

N: Yeah.

R: Let alone what I’m going to call the - “the lie”...

N: [laughs] The lie?

R: ...later on. The lie that heavily implies things. Um, mentioning that that is a thing, I think here, is important.

N: Yes.

R: We don’t need to delve into that particular thing because it’s not in this book.

N: Yeah.

R: It’s in one of the later ones.

N: Yeah.

R: But - because Peta has real feelings for her, as far as we can tell, um, she’s got kinda this like, “Oh, he loves me. Do I feel anything for him or not?” She’s not sure how she feels about Gale. Gale’s acting like they’re together...

N: ...Gale’s being...

R: ...and she cheated on him.

N: Yeah, Gale’s being awful and possessive and just, all out toxic, in just really bad ways, in general.

R: Yeah, so on one hand...

N: ...And also - And also like with - with Gale’s whole possessiveness - Gale’s whole possessiveness thing, you would think that Gale of all people would understand the “doing this thing to survive”.

R: Yeah.

N: That’s like their whole dynamic. That's like the whole reason that the two of them are as close as they are, is because the two of them together are going out and - and illegally gathering food to survive. That’s his - that’s their whole thing. And...

R: ...But also...

N: ...but also Gale...

R: ...at the same time...

N: ...has this possessiveness about Katniss and it’s like, ech.

R: But also in a sense, she left to go hunt with somebody else. Like I know that sounds weird...

N: ...No, no she didn't...

R: ...and I’m not trying to excuse that...

N: ...She was kidnapped...

R: ...Well but...

N: ...She was kidnapped and then didn’t refuse to survive.

R: No, but - but what Gale’s seeing on the screen, hypothetically because we don’t get his perspective on it.

N: Yeah.

R: What he’s seeing in this like, packaged, like love story, and she’s saying things about having already liked him, and Peta is saying and probably not lying about having loved her for a very long time, and especially since they had a more casual relationship, I - we don’t get enough information to know whether Gale would have a real reason to think that maybe she had also been hanging out with Peta this entire time. Not that that would justify it, like this whole thing is like really, really terrible.

(16:32)

N: Yeah.

R: I just really like Gale and want to...

N: ...You just don’t want him...

R: ...make him...

N: ...to be.

R: [sighs] I - I just want to say that he is also in pain and being hurt and they shouldn't be each other's enemies but in this book it creates a lot of stress and toxicity because, there’s so much weight placed on a romantic relationship that it feels like the thing is happening where Gale thinks if she has a romance that means they can’t have their platonic thing, complicated when he indicated that he would like a romantic thing. That’s my - that’s my spiel there.

N: I - guess, really just, I don't know, react to...

R: ...Oh! Treating your significant other like they can’t have a relationship...

N: ...It’s more than that...

R: ...of some kind without you, is bad...

N: ...is bad already...

R: ...and on top of that treating “not your significant other” like they can’t have a relationship without you is even worse.

N: Yes, yes. That’s - that’s the thing that is like, like they’re not - like she and Gale are not together, and have never been together, and were never together, at all. And...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and then he’s - treating her like she - like they have been for a long time and also she’s betraying that somehow. But, she’s not. And - and so there's this, I don't know, it’s just the worst of both worlds.

R: Yeah.

N: For her, with...

R: ...and this is why...

N: ...him. Ok, but then

R: ...This is why romantic, sexual, and platonic...

N: ...but then with Peta...

R: ...axes are different and need to all be...

N: ...need to be...

R: ...given important weight...

N: ...different, yeah...

R: ...and treated like they’re different.

N: Yeah.

R: But all really important, and them getting all muddled together… It’s not okay...

N: ...It’s just not ok. And - and also so, Peta. There’s this whole...

R: ...Yes...

N: ...there’s this whole thing where, like [sighs]. Ok, I understand why Haymitch and Peta didn’t tell Katniss that this was gonna be a thing.

(18:52)

R: Mhmm.

N: Survival wise, I understand why this was the tactical ploy. But if they’re gonna do that, Peta has to be the person to understand that Katniss...

R: ...Oh, that she doesn’t actually, right...

N: ...that Katniss is - is fully able to fake it to survive. And the fact - the fact that that was not understood by Peta...

R: ...Haymitch clearly understood...

N: ...Haymitch understood, Haymitch was fine. Peta didn’t understand, and Peta was the instigator from a like stunt/stage projection point of view.

R: Just in case, for anyone who didn’t read these books and doesn't know what we’re talking about, Peta surprised Katniss by, while he was interviewed and she was watching, announcing that he had loved her for a very long time and was currently in love with her, and she was - so shocked, that on camera she, by being genuinely shocked, did a reaction that made it look like she was excited and surprised.

(20:11)

N: Yeah.

R: Potentially, it’s hard to judge from the text...

N: ...shocked for sure...

R: ...but that’s certainly how it was - that’s how it was treated, and so Peta has been surprised - surprises her with this, out of nowhere they have to pretend to genuinely be building a romance in order to survive, and then he spends the rest of the trilogy hurt and upset that maybe she didn’t also genuinely love him the whole time, and doesn't really definitely want to be with him.

N: Yeah, like he - his actions on stage, regardless of whose idea it was or why, his actions on stage forced her to either pretend to be in love with him and want him, or die.

R: It’s like - it’s literally assuming the characters, who maybe play around with a thing on a reality show, are then going to get married and be together for the rest of their lives. That’s literally what’s expected of them, and he is expecting it to be real too because...

N: ...Yeah! Like he bought...

R: ...in this world the...

N: ...into it too...

R: ...reality show never ends

N: He bought - he bought into his own ploy.

R: Yeah.

N: and - and the thing is, like, he bought into his own ploy, and has no self awareness of that. Like, ok. I don’t know if this is a - if this a - a popular or unpopular opinion or what, I honestly feel like, ok.

(21:50)

R: Mhmm.

N: First off I think the book was written really well the way it is and I think that if this thing I am going to say next would have happened, it would not have been the same book. I’m not thinking that this would have been better, just different.

R: Ok.

N: I think characterization wise, if Peta and Gale had been flipped in which part of the story they were, this would have been a very positive, healthy, dynamic.

R: What do you mean? Like if she had ended up on the Hunger Games with the person she had been hunting with for years? Or, what sense?

N: Uh, kinda. If she and peta had, not necessarily been hunting partners, but had a, like growing, real, relationship, growing up together and relying on each other. And again, not necessarily hunting for food, because that would have made Peta a very different character. But like, say - let’s say, Katniss hunting in the woods, and trading with Peta for bread.

R: Ok, if they had developed a relationship that way.

(22:58)

N: Right, if they had a positive platonic relationship that direction, and then Peta also still has a crush on her and then maybe they develop into something more, and then Gale who is also a hunter for real, and Katniss had been Hunger Games people and been forced into a fake relationship in the Hunger Games to survive, I think that Gale, Haymitch, and Katniss would have all been on the same page, and said “Alright, we are surviving, get ourselves through this, we’re gonna live, we’re gonna go home, and I never have to talk to you again except to fake this in front of the cameras, ‘kay bye.” And the she and Peta could have gone and had like this healthy budding romance and Peta would have seen what happened on screen, and not just decided she was cheating, instead they would have like actually had a real conversation about, and when Katniss said, “We did it to survive, look at me I’m alive and I came back to you because I didn’t blow my cover,” Peta would have been hurt, probably, but Peta would not have been hurt and given her the silent treatment and jeopardized other people’s survival to do so. Instead it would have been, “Oh, this sucks,” and then they would have probably actually worked through it. But, that would have been a much healthier book, and this book is not about healthy relationships...

R: ...Nope! This book is...

N: ...so it’s fine...

R: ...not about - no one in this book is healthy, just...

N: ...No one, at all [laughs]. But also Iike...

R: And if they were...

N: … but - but I do think...

R: ...that would be weird.

N: ...that would have been an interesting flip, because I think that in the Hunger Games, everyone in their team would have been on board if that had been the characters that had been in that situation.

R: Also, like this dystopia is so extreme and terrible and overbearing and all pervasive, that if anyone in here is totally fine, something is wrong. Just...

N: Or they die.

R: Or they die, and we don’t get to find out what was wrong...

N: [laughs]

R: ...other than they died. Like...

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah. Um. So, are you ready for our big topic for this week? Alright.

R: Moving on to our third topic? Food starvation and food insecurity. Um, just have a, uh, trigger warning for this discussion because it’s - we’re - this is a topic, we’re literally describing it. Might be triggering for some people, please take care of yourselves. It’s called the Hunger Games, and that theme is through the entire series, we are focusing on how it shows up in book one, so. Uh, for Katniss the Hunger Games started as soon as she was born, and - I think maybe the cruelest trick in the book, is pretending the games are only once a year and only for those 24 children. It’s not. It’s everybody, it's all the time, and as - as book one goes on, Katniss spends more time in the arena thinking about food, thinking about she's going to get food, thinking about how she doesnt have enough, thinking about how she needs water, thinking about how she’s thirsty, than she does actually worrying about fighting, or fighting other tributes. Anything to add to that?

N: I would argue that thinking about food is combat in that situation.

R: Right.

N: Because they’re all in like a 24 sided war of nutrition.

R: Oh sure, it’s...

N: ...um, but yeah it’s not - she's thinking defensively, not offensively.

R: Yep.

N: And even her - a lot of her offensive maneuvers are food based.

R: Yeah.

N: Either acquiring it for herself, or taking it away from someone else.

R: My only pushback is that mainly is book two...

N: Uhhh...

R: ...but as a note for the series

N: Ah, no it’s book one. It is.

R: The big thing where she messes with people’s food is book two.

N: I mean...

R: ...there is some of that

N: ...there is other big things, there’s other big things also.

R: What is the big thing in book one? It has slipped my mind.

N: Big one in book one is she literally leaves Rue to go get them food.

R: Oh. Ok.

N: She - she grabs backpacks, she swipes things, she...

R: Oh, so blowing up everyone’s food happens twice, I forgot.

N: Yeah. No - no she doesn’t blow it up, she goes in and like, she goes back to scavenge and to find food.

(28:13)

R: Yeah, yeah. But in - in this game when the resources are - are scarce, that she has food means that other people don't, and means that she is more likely to live and they are more likely to die. And, I think my point stands that she spends...

N: ... Oh yeah...

R: ... way more time...

N: ... no, absolutely...

R: ... focusing on that than on actual physical combat.

N: Oh absolutely. She is - she is more worried about just “not starving to death” than she is about engaging in hand to hand combat with people unless they force her too.

R: Also, side note, when we say Rue we do actually mean Rue this time, ‘cause we are in the arena.

(28:52)

N: Ok, yes, um, so that’s - that’s actually something that plays into this - this food defensiveness. Katniss probably would have been better off; functionally, survivally, tactically, strategically by not teaming up with Rue.

R: Mmhmm.

N: They put themselves in jeopardy, and she puts herself in added danger by being two of them when one of them is a - a child who very, very, very much resembles her sister, Primrose, and these two characters are so conflated together in Katniss’ mind and it’s portrayed in that book that like she sacrifices her own food and her own resources to keep Rue safe.

R: Also, in the narrative they are conflated so often that if you heard our first segment, it was me saying Rue the whole time when I meant Prim.

N:Yeah [laughs] like they’re - they’re not even the same name but the characters are so - they’re - they’re just so conflated and compared and, not even contrasted, only compared, so much.

R: Half the time when I try to talk about these books I just end up saying Prue, which is neither of their names.

N: I think I did that a couple of times in section one actually.

R: Yeah.

N: When I was trying to correct you I said Prue, not Prim.

R: [laughs] Which is not right either.

N: Yeah, which is literally nothing [laughs].

R: Yeah.

N: So, ok. So let’s - let’s talk about some ways in which this, particularly the first book, but this series portrays food hoarding and food defensiveness. So, um, just a quick side note for those who don’t know, and who can google these terms separately, food defensiveness is specifically behaviors that come from feeling like your food is always at risk of being lost or gone and you feel like you can never get more again. Like, it’s not a - it’s not a logical feeling, it’s not a - like realistically, especially if you live in our modern world, that I assume all of our listeners do, assuming that no one is time traveling from the paleolithic era.

R: Hi to our listeners from 2400, glad the podcast is still going. Hope you enjoy it.

(31:14)

N: How’s your food situation? [laughs] No, but so - so food defensiveness is not looking at something and saying “I only have three apples left and I will have to get more”. Food defensiveness is looking at 12 apples and saying “I can’t eat any of these because once they are gone, these are the only 12 apples in the universe and - they'll be gone forever, and apples are the only food left, and once I eat these app[les] - 12 apples I will die. So, you do one of two things. You either don't eat any apples even when you need to, because you need to live by eating. OR, you eat all of them because you know they’re gonna rot and so you just try and cram as many nutrients in as you can, because you - you feel like when that runs out there will be no more and you will die.

(32:11)

R: And this is why I channel my food defensiveness into canned goods, because it is as illogical but at least it’ll be ok and they will still be there, uh.

N: Yeah, so food...

R: ...I have the same...

N: ...food...

R: ...this topic is very personal for both of us. I hauled the same four cans of pineapples around for all of my Bachelor’s degree.

N: [laughs] Oh jesus. I didn’t know that.

R: And for an additional year after that. I was just like “I am never out of food because I have these four cans…”

N: [laughs]

R: “...of pineapple that I’m definitely going to eat someday.”

N: Definitely going to eat eventually, someday.

R: Yeah. So, we may be glib, but like, this one is a very close topic for both of us.

N: Yeah, we’re being intentionally more frivolous or more...

R: ...and light...

N: ...not frivolous, light toned, because we have to. So - and I want to be clear, food defensiveness is different from starvation. Starvation is a physical thing that your body is going through. Food defensiveness is a mental thing, that you can be surrounded by food for the rest of your life, and your [food] defensiveness will never go away.

R: Because of having had...

N: ...Food defensiveness...

R: ...food insecurity.

N: Yeah, and food insecurity is the condition that can create food defensiveness. Food insecurity is the reality that your food might disappear or it might be gone and you might never get any more. It’s the actual act of...

R: ...and then food defensiveness...

N: ...if it’s gone tomorrow...

R: And then food defensiveness is not being able to emotionally know that the food [in]security has gone away. It feels like it never left.

N: Yes. In this book, they have a really - what feels to us like, a very realistic portrayal of somebody who is - who hoards...

R: ...Food insecure...

N: ...hoards food, is food insecure, is food defensive - and specifically I’m also talking about sharing food with Rue in the arena, because Katniss is so used to being food defensive for herself and her mom and her sister that instead of putting her own survival first in the arena, she gives up her food so that this child that reminds her of her sister might live for one more day.

R: Yeah.

(34:40)

N: And - and in this book there are some very good descriptions of that feeling of - of that - that hunger that you know means that your body is shutting down. They have some very very good descriptions of the actual impact of your vision feeling blurry and your - your eyes swimming, and your stomach feeling hollow, and you feeling like you are - are literally being eaten away from the inside, and that - the dizziness that can come with that and the shaking that comes in your hands when your body just doesn’t have enough calories. And they do a good job of describing this and they do a good job of not just “Oh, Katniss goes through the Hunger Games and is also dizzy.” Like, no, it has real impact. It’s in everything she thinks about, it’s in everything she does, everything she - every plan she makes centers around “When will I eat again?”

(35:36)

R: Yep.

N: Everything

R: Every single one.

N: Every step in her head is linked to her next meal, because if it’s not...

R: ...then she’ll die...

N: ...she’ll die.

R: My only argument against this being food defensiveness is that she is still literally food insecure.

N: Yes, that’s true...

R: ...And so it..

N: ...but also...

R: ...but she’s doing the things that go along with that, so.

N: Yes, and - and my argument for this being food defensiveness is that she is still this way even when they are being given all of the rich Capital foods.

R: Oh, I was thinking of her in the arena, you’re right, she is still...

N: ...I was thinking of her in the whole book. The whole book...

R: ...Yeah, she is food defensive before, in-between leaving home and getting to the arena.

N: She - she stuffs her face with food that she knows might make her sick because it’s too - too rich, too fatty, at the first chance she is given on the train, because what if they’re being cruel...

R: What if there’s no more?

N: ...and if they starve her for four days after this meal?

R: Yeah.

N: And to be fair, in this - in this universe in this book, that is a very real threat that they’re under, but also like this is the condition that she lives under and it - it doesn't take away from the fact that everything that she does, literally every moves she makes is aimed toward either conserving energy, until she can find food, finding food or keeping that food until her next meal.

R: It is so much, this practicality, by necessity, is pervasive. She is not the only one who is like this, she just is our point of view character. And...

N: And - and it’s - it’s so realistic, and I’m using this word intentionally because this is descriptive and pervasive in a way that is incredibly - incredibly traumatic to read if you have any - any relation to this trauma.

(37:42)

R: And we say this, not hypothetically, this was a stressful book for both of us to read because of that. So...

N: ...This, no joke, slight bit of realism here, because - I - this is something that I feel like, this is not a trauma that we just, see treated with any kind of care in media in general, and so there - there are some traumas that you know, you see them and kind of realize how big a deal they are. This is one that I just - I just really feel like I need to - to highlight, because it’s not one of those.

R: Yep.

N: Reading the first...

R: ...That’s...

N: ...book, meant that I did not eat for 24 hours.

R: Because it stressed you out so much?

N: No, because I was hungry and went down to my kitchen and said “What if I accidentally ate the last five boxes of mac and cheese and all of my three oven pizzas, and also ate all of my pasta, and also ate all of the corn dogs in my freezer, and also finished up all of my fishsticks and my ravioli and starved tomorrow?” And so I didn’t eat.

(38:48)

R: Yeah, that’s what I meant by stressing you out. That is being stressed. [laughs]

N: [laughs] Sure. But I just - I just, I feel like this...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...this is - this is one of those things where if you don’t have this, and we’ll say this in our wrap-up too I think, but this is...

R: ...If you don’t...

N: ...if you don’t have this problem, these books are great. If you have this problem, just know that it is - it is this bad because it is well done and it will hurt.

R: And we’re caught in a bind with describing it because either we miss impressing on people who don’t have this, how much yes, this the most traumatic thing in book one.

N: Yes.

R: Other stuff - other stuff goes to the forefront in books two and three, that’s why we’re talking about it in book one, but hands down this is more traumatic and pervasive than the deaths as they are depicted in book one, from our perspective.

N: Yeah.

R: And - you feel free to disagree with us, we’re gonna talk about death in later books ‘cause there’s plenty of it.

N: Yeah.

R: But as soon as we read these it was like “Ok, we’re talking about her mom’s depression, we’re talking about food insecurity, what do you want for topic three?” ...just boom, boom, no question.

N: Yeah.

R: And I just - just that for these characters, the Hunger Games begins when they’re born. Begins before they’re born if their parent can’t get enough for them to be ok before then, like, the Hunger Games don’t end for these characters. It is not once a year, it is all the time. So, that’s, I hope - I hope we have communicated that well. This - this topic stresses both of us out, so.

N: This topic is the reason that I, for those who didn’t listen or even if you did, this topic is the reason I - I said in topic one that I am probably not going to read these books again.

R: Yep.

N: Because it’s - it stops me from eating.

R: Yeah

[Musical Interlude]