N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin and this is Books That Burn. Alright for the factions in “Catching Fire”, we have Katniss, Peeta, Gale, Haymitch, Cinna, and the prep team, Prim - no - prim - Primrose, yes Prim, uh Katniss's mother, residents of district 12, the champion tributes, residents of other districts specifically district 11, President Snow and the residents of the Capitol.

R: Are you ready to talk about Cinna for our minor character…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...spotlight?

N: So Cinna is an - an interesting character.

R: Mmhmm.

N: So a lot of Cinna’s - alright. [coughs]. There's a lot we could talk about with Cinna, but specifically what we're talking about today…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...is how much he is really in charge of managing other people's emotions and how much there - there's a lot of him not being outwardly emotional about things that really matter to him, and there's also a lot of him protecting other people and other - and specifically the tribute - tributes and specifically Katniss, um…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...from the things that other people are going through.

R: And we're not just reading into it that he cares more than he says because his actions show it. Like he says, you know, channeling everything into his work where it won't hurt anyone but him. He specifically says that.

N: Yeah, so - and - and there's - there's a moment that really, like, made us decide to - to do him as - as a topic. There - there's a moment where Katniss is prep team has been crying over her and to her and at her about the fact that she's going into the arena again and the first time she sees Cinna she - she's straight up tells him “Don't let me go through them do that - doing that again,” and that was when they kind of have this little bit of - a tiny bit of dialogue, a tiny moment where he basically says “Don't worry I'll take care of it, and also you don't have to worry about me doing that to you, um, because when I'm upset I put it into my costuming, and this is how I handle my emotions,” and she was like “Oh good.” So it…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ... was - it was literally - it's literally explicitly stated that this is how he - how he handles everything.

R: And whatever he did to get them to not cry in front of her in…

N: [laughs]

R: ...95 percent worked…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...because, even - even in to - even into…

N: ...Oh my god yeah…

R: ...Mock - “Mockingjay,” they…

N: ...they…

R: ...try not to cry in front of her…

N: ...they are - now super aware of it and stuffing down tears and sending each other out of the room like “No you're gonna break down, leave,” and it's - it's very funny. A - it's almost comedic.

R: Yeah.

N: It’s…

R: Yeah, it is - it is definitely a little bit of a bright spot.

N: [laughs]

R: Yeah the bright spot is that people are going out of the room to cry. This is a dark book.

N: Yeah.

R: Uh.

N: So speaking of channeling his emotions into his work.

R: Yes, the Mockingjay wedding dress.

N: I - this is one thing that I - I just think it's a very cool visual the way it's described in the book. A - a lot of the descriptions of Cinna's outfits especially but the clothing in general is very visceral, very - very visual, um but…

R: ...And…

N: ... this is really cool…

R: ...and because it's possible that you haven't read the book or seen the movies, I haven't seen movies I don't know how they did this, but at least how it's described in the book is she's in this wedding dress and it's white and it is the one that everybody voted on and she has to be in because for the way - she has to be in this dress she doesn't want for the wedding she doesn't want...

N: ...Yeah…

(4:57)

R: ….to the person she doesn't really like that way, and she spins and as…

N: ...Raises her arms…

R: ...she spins…

N: ...That was the trigger.

R: Yes, that - that was the trigger, the physical trigger, spins and raises her arms and as she twirls the wedding-dress burns up and all the white over stuff burns away and it turns into a black version of the dress still with feathers and it makes her look like this symbol of the resistance this bird the Mockingjay.

N: Yeah.

R: And that - that moment that is Cinna channeling everything into his work.

N: It - it's also him…

R: ...It…

N: ...as the designer explicitly…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...endorsing the rebellion because…

R: ...Yes…

N: ...he is the only person that could have made her dress be this thing and the Capitol…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...knows it. [laughs]. Like that cannot…

R: ...And…

N: ...Katniss could not have done that without him.

R: And the reason this is important in terms of trauma for him is that we get to the second part of the trauma where now that he has managed everybody's emotions and channeled his into his work where they won't hurt Katniss. He is beaten up in an elevator where Katniss can see and then we never see him again. He probably was killed. He might have been tortured. We don't know but for the rest of the book everyone - be - and the rest of the series everyone believes that he was killed and or tortured, and that's just taken as a fact.

N: Yeah.

R: And nothing in the book - he doesn't like - not to spoil book three, he - like he nothing magically happens to - to counteract that narrative and so he - he - he knew - he knew he was gonna die for doing that. People were dying for less, like. We don't have him saying he knew…

N: ....Mmhmm…

R: ...but given the world he lived in there's no way he didn’t.

N: I mean he navigated the…

R: ...Um…

N: ...Capitol’s violence as a - a clothing designer for the tributes for like a year. Like this was his career, so.

R: Yeah my understanding was Katniss was his first tribute.

N: Oh really?

R: Yeah because it was he - he had been a designer and then…

N: ...I mean but he - this is still his career and he was still chosen…

R: ...Oh yeah…

N: ...to be a designer. There's only 12 - there's only…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...12 slots for that in the whole - in the whole I almost said kingdom.

R: 24 because each half of the…

N: ...Oh I thought he designed for both of them.

R: Nope Peeta has - Peeta has their own person I think. Well Peeta has his own prep team.

N: I don’t think Peeta has…

R: ...Either way there’s 12…

N: ...his own designer…

R: ...or 24 slots…

N: ...because Cinna designed their costumes to go together…

R: ...Oh…

N: ...every time.

R: Okay nevermind.

(7:59)

N: I’m pretty sure.

R: Okay, so - so - there's - the most important thing being there's 12 slots for this job…

N: ...He made…

R: ...and if you do the wrong thing…

N: ...at any - if you do the wrong thing…

R: ...you can get killed…

N: ...any point in your career you don't make it to this slot. Yeah, and - and he…

R: ...Yeah, and I was gonna say if you do the wrong thing at any point in your career you could get killed if you do the wrong thing once you're in this slot, you…

N: ...Right…

R: ...will get killed.

N: Absolutely. Um, but yeah, it - he - Cinna is is honestly a very interesting character just because even from the beginning when - when Katniss first gets that like, she very quickly has her own kind of text in - where her own inner monologue where she's saying like that he is the person she is depending on and kind of feels like - he - he is her one kind of port in the storm, especially before she trudged - trusts Haymitch and especially when she's not sure how to handle Peeta, and especially when, you know, everybody is trying to give her advice on handling the crowd, Cinna is the one that she listens to and she still - he's the one that she goes back to and he - he's the one that she really honestly thinks knows what he's doing [laughs] and - and - and there's some things where, like you know her prep team does some stuff with makeup and she looks at him and - and says “Hey,” and at like the first glance he looks at her face and goes, “No, that won't work,” and he's really honestly one of the first people who kind of - actually I - I'm not even gonna say the first. I think he's the only person we get in the entire book who figures out pretty quickly who she is as a person and works with her instead of trying to force her to do, or be, or - or react in a way that's - that's contrary to who she is. I mean his portrayals of her, his costuming for her, his critique and - I - I think there's at least once in the first book where he actually makes the prep team redo their - redo her makeup because somebody else had control of it and then she comes in front of him and he takes one look at her and goes

(10:15)

“No,” [laughs] “That won't work because you as a person that doesn't work and so we're gonna redo it so that it actually makes sense for who you are,” and - and I think - I honestly I can't think of another - another person in the entire series who just works with her as a human being instead of treating her like a prop that they can make perform, and - and - I mean it - it says a lot that - that he is able to do that and also is, you know, not at least until the very end where he blatantly defies the Capitol with it - with her wedding dress, but it says a lot that he is that kind of person who has kind of survived this world, and isn't part of the cruelty of the Capitol, and doesn't condone it, and actively pushes back against it and protects Katniss from it, and I don't know. It's just very interesting.

R: We love Cinna. Everyone loves Cinna in - in the books, just he's - he's - he's so great and - but also I think it's important to note that part of why everyone loves him is that he doesn't burden them with his emotions, so he's very much someone that people poured into.

N: Yeah.

R: And in terms of trauma…

N: ...That’s a lot…

R: ...you - that's a lot. You can only take that for so long and he only takes it for so long until he throws it back at the Capitol and is killed for it.

N: Yeah.

R: And - he can't - I don't know, I was just thinking too, like you know “check in on your strong friends” kind of a, thing, ‘cause he - he seems like the kind of person who was everybody's “strong friend”, and...

N: Yeah. Well especially when - we - we have in canon that he as - as someone who is clothing - clothing designer, as someone who's in charge of a look, um, we - we get very much an in-canon that those are the people that talk and chat and gossip and - and get the people that they're working with to talk, and it's just a very - like he's set up to be a captive audience also just in general.

R: Yep, ah alright. Bye Cinna, miss you. [sighs]. I just, I loved every section about him in the books it's just, uh.

[Musical Interlude]

R: For Katniss, depictions of reliving trauma and we're gonna call this Hollywood PTSD. It hits all the story beats of how PTSD gets depicted in film and popular media and, we understand that real PTSD is a little bit different but the author clearly wants the reader to think PTSD, and since our stance is that the author has inflicted this on the character, we're going to use PTSD just as a shorthand throughout the rest of this section. Um, we're not saying anything about anyone real who does or does not have PTSD, but…

N: ...Yeah, but this is…

R: ...with that…

N: ...very clearly one of those where that is the depiction goal.

R: Yeah, that's what you're supposed to think of. Um, so Katniss and her PTSD, oh the nightmares, so many nightmares. Uh, so she has PTSD from book 1, which makes sense. Uh, she has nightmares and had part of - as we’ll - we talked about in - in book 1 the fake relationship with Peeta, in book 2 stuff gets added to it because having someone else, specifically him in this case, in bed helps to keep the nightmares away and…

N: ...Which to be fair was something that started in book 1.

R: Yeah.

N: But in book 2 she has a lot of internal monologue about how if he's not there, there's…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...nightmares every night forever, and it's - she does not ever have sleep that doesn't include them. Um, and -and her - I - I will give…

R: ...and he does too.

N: I would give the - that's - yes fair, he does too. I would like to give the author some credit here. so I know - so Hollywood PTSD, Hollywood's version of PTSD that they like to - to put up on screen, a lot of times what you'll see especially in movies is - or - or I mean in books too but especially in movies you'll see like this - the recurring single nightmare that happens every time you fall asleep and it's the one that you experience, and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ... that's - that's not what this author did…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: and I would just like to point out that this is a, I don't want to call it better, but a more varied, more nuanced portrayal of this. She has - so there's - PTSD has a lot of real-life variants and we're not trying to say you know that Katniss's PTSD is the only way to experience it. Um, Hollywood PTSD is a “real permutation” but also it's not the be-all and end-all, but I like and I think it is - it is a very good portrayal here of this, where Katniss's nightmares are varied and…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...they definitely - they very clearly have pull back from flashbacks to the trauma that she's experienced but they change.

R: Yeah.

N: And they're also very clearly inspired by whatever it is that she just went through. Anytime there is - any time there's a - a nightmare reference or - or depiction we can see the threads of that one thing that happened to her today superimposed on the trauma she already experienced. Um.

R: That’s good storytelling.

N: That's really good storytelling, like it's really really nice.

(16:56)

N: Um, and also from a - from a reader perspective it's not boring. It's not “Of course she dreamed about that one drowning sequence over and over,” [laughs] and I - and I will say that - that because it's a book I think the - it's - it's - it's definitely a lot easier for an author to - to have that kind of more varied storytelling than it is for say a film that would have to then record…

R: ...Make up new scenes…

N: ... and film and make up new things and it's a lot easier and it - this is why we call it Hollywood PTSD. It's a lot easier if you're making a movie or if you're making a TV show to film the one scene, one time.

R: And then just use little parts of it it's a shorthand for “Uh, had the nightmare again.”

N: Yeah or - or even…

R: ...just - just that…

N: ...the same ten seconds over and over every night and - and this doesn't do that and it doesn't do it in a really smart way in it very clearly - the author [has] very clearly put some thought into how these nightmares were gonna manifest.

R: Yep, like there's common threads, like there's a very particular…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...thing that had happened at the very end of book one where pieces of that are a recurring feature but…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...not every single time. Just…

N: ...Not every…

R: ...enough…

N: ...single time and not always front and center.

R: Yeah, not always front and center, and just enough for it to be like “Oh, that was the freakiest thing in the arena.”

N: [laughs]

R: But honestly, that was the freakiest thing in the arena, ah.

N: Yeah.

R: As a…

N: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…

R: ...as a reader, so.

N: I'm trying to remember there was one that I - that kind of stuck in my head and now I can't remember what the exact thread was. A thread that connects book two and three where the nightmares get uh, much weirder is when she learned certain things about President Snow and you end up with a bunch of motifs of flowers and roses and she goes from having nightmares about uh, like wolf creatures with the faces of dead tributes to having nightmares about roses and flowers and the scent of flowers, and making a nightmare about flowers be genuinely terrifying and…

N: [laughs]

R: ...twisted and scary is uh, well done, uh…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...in these books and it that one crosses into both two and three but, here is where we're talking about the nightmares, so.

N: Yeah, and - and the thing with this particular portrayal is like, I just want to really - I - I don't know. I - I just really am I really like the way this was - this was handled in general.

(19:39)

Um, but she'll have that - that thing with with the flowers that is very much a current thing that's - that's happening to her. But she sees that depiction on people that have been dead since book 1.

Like it's - it's just very - it's a very good tie back, it's a very good visual and it's very - it - it makes sense because it's not just Katniss is working through current trauma in doing her nightmares. It's - this is all of the undealt-with stuff and so now it's - it's been mixed and rearranged so that she's - re-experiencing like four different traumatic things at the same nightmare.

R: And because the Hunger Games…

N: ...And that...

R: ...literally…

N: ...is very…

R: ...never end…

N: ...common in PTSD - oh, well yeah…

R: ...because they literally never end she doesn't ever really get a chance to stop and process and work through stuff and move on, at least not in book two for certain. We can quibble about whether she gets to it all in book three but…

N: [laughs]

R: ...not in book two, which is where we are.

N: Not in book two, not at all. So she also has, uh, pretty strong - this - this is the part, so she also has some pretty strong visual flashbacks and - so here's the thing, in - in Hollywood PTSD a lot of the time these flashbacks are purely visual and they're always, always, always, always, triggered by either a specific place or a specific word. Like you'll see that a lot…

R: ...Oh yeah…

N: ...in movies, and I - I actually - also in this book I think that this was well handled too because she definitely gets visual flashbacks. We get literal explicit text of her saying like her thinking she saw a thing when she walked into that place again and then she turns and no it's not there anymore because she's just - she's just going back to that - that trauma. Um, but also sometimes it is there because the Capitol is still messing with her. But, she gets those visual flashbacks but she also - she also gets - sometimes it's not a visual flashback and - and in PTSD there - there are multiple types of flashbacks you can get and she specifically gets - she gets the visual ones that are very Hollywood but she also gets, uh, smell…

R: ...Mmm, yes…

N: ...and sounds.

R: Smell especially with the flowers and also other smells.

N: Oh yeah, but just - just smell and - and sound in general which, um, I don't know. It - it’s just - it's a much more - it's a much more grounded…

R: ...Mhmm…

N: ...thing for the audience to experience. Um, especially because it's not - and when I say grounded I mean the variety of flashback makes it feel more…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...more grounded more real if it was all olfactory or if it was all audio it would still not be - it would still be the same kind - type of like hollow feeling that only visual gives you but the fact that it - it was all three of them and it rotated and sometimes it was the same memory being triggered in different…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...senses and - and - and not at the same time. Like you know not always at the same time, and so - I don’t - I don't know. I - it was just as reading it, it felt more like she was going through this thing, and that you as a reader were watching her go through it.

(23:29)

Uh, and also I would like to say too that I don't think - we - we talked in our first episode about the portrayal of uh, food - food um - food insecurity. Food insecurity, that was a hard read. That was hard to read for us - for us, but I also have PTSD from different things. This was not hard to read.

R: Well I also say that's a little bit of a different nature of the thing because you're not going to be triggered by her…

N: ...What?

R: ...triggers.

N: That's - that's true. That's true, but also there's a specific reason because I know for me reading books sometimes…

R: ...Oh, ok…

N: ...when a character is going through PTSD especially if it's portrayed in this kind of the same ways that I experience, which Katniss's actually is. Katniss's portrayal is pretty close to - to some things that I've dealt with. But this was not triggering for me and this - the reason I think that I - I think this was done very well in a way that did actually protect the audience is anytime that she had a trigger, the language used to describe the flashback that she was going through was incredibly third-person, incredibly observational language and descriptions. What we did not get that we could have gotten and would have been completely in line with the rest of the book, the rest of the series. What we did not get was “Katniss walked into the room and the smell of blood enveloped her.” [laughs] We didn't - we didn't get language like that. We got “Katniss walked into the room and what - and thought she could hear again that one sound, and thought for a second that there was a smell of blood, and looked around the room and the only thing she could think about was the visit with - with President Snow.” That's the kind of descriptions that we got and the language that was used makes it clear that Katniss is experiencing this but we as an audience are not, and it was just - I just think that this whole - this entire thing was very, very, very well done and I think it was very - I think it was very good decisions made with how it was done.

R: Can I also point to - so you're saying something about the - the language there. I think that by going to this more distant third-person language in a book that while technically the entire book is third person it rides much closer to her - her thoughts for the…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...rest of it, I think that this distancing also is important when we're talking about trauma because if the book suddenly switched from I to they, that would…

N: ...Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be…

R: ...that'd be a huge like, disassociation.

N: [laughs]

(26:40)

R: But I think that that - I don't want to assume that the author like, was going that far with this, but it has a little bit of that - it has a little bit of that effect and I think that…

N: ...It does…

R: ...some disassociation is not out of place…

N: ...Not a bad…

R: ...for someone in Katniss's position. Oh I'm not saying it's a good thing I'm just saying it's - it makes sense that it would happen and so for that subtle distancing to happen in the books I, yeah I think that's very appropriate.

N: Honestly with - with the language used I don't actually think that it - I don't actually think it's that Katniss is - is putting a barrier there. I - I honestly the way - the way it's written, it's written as though Katniss is in the moment and it's overwhelming her but it's not written to overwhelm the reader. So I don't actually think Katniss has it - has this separation at all.

R: Oh okay.

N: I think it's…

R: ...You think it’s…

N: ...I think it's purely done for the reader and - and to be honest it's - we could assign the author different motives for that language change as even something as - as um, - as uh, even something as utilitarian it's just not describing it again and using up more words and keeping - and not having the book be 50% flashback, but it doesn't really matter in my head why, because the - the thing that we’re - we're talking about is the audience experience and for…

R: ...Oh sure…

N: ...me as an audience member experiencing that I can witness Katniss have a flashback without having to rego through what she experienced with her is huge. And - and yeah, I just - I don’t know. It - it is - it is very much - it - it is very much a permutation on that Hollywood P - PTSD but as a reader I thought that it was very well done in a way that did not give me that same feeling, especially when contrasted with - with the food insecurity. [laughs.

R: [laughs] [sighs] Oh gosh.

N: I think it’s…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...it's just a very good - it's just a very good juxtaposition of like, this was handled very well.

R: Again no guarantees that this book will or won't, uh, have any impact on your own…

N: ...I mean, yeah…

R: ...uh, specific things as a reader but for us, of the two, uh, this handling was - the handling of the PTSD was less stressful than the handling of the food insecurity at least for the two of us, so.

R: Onto Katniss and self-sacrifice. As a little bit of an extension of one of our book 1 topics with the faking a relationship, we move in to the very large self-sacrifice of pretending to be pregnant because that has all kinds of implications for herself and her relationships with everybody else, if she actually had done what is necessary to be pregnant with Peeta’s baby.

N:Yeah, so…

R: ...Which they hadn't done.

N: [sighs]

R: So she's, like, sacrificing her reputation and…

N: ...Uh…

R: ...identity at minimum.

N: Yeah.

R: Like her with her friends and family because she doesn't get a chance to tell them that's not real for a very long time.

N: Well and she also, by going along with this she is sacrificing - I mean she - she almost goes through - she almost jumped - so we [sighs]. This is not a thing that she would have wanted and she specifically in the - in the first book talks a lot about it being a thing that she probably will never want.

R: Right.

N: She does not want to be the parent to a child who then has to experience this culture. She…

R: ...Yep…

N: ...just - she straight up does not want to have children.

R: And also the way she found out that she was supposedly pregnant is, again, Peeta announcing something without - without consulting her and it's part of Haymitch and Peeta's strategy for “Peeta and Katniss” without consulting Katniss and, ah.

N: Yeah. Well and - and also she experiences some of the same trauma that she would if she were actually pregnant.

R: Yeah.

N: Because now she has thoughts and - and - and I think even nightmares and just this - this crushing like, “You know if I were to actually bring a child into this world,” and - and she just - she just goes through some of that emotional trauma that that would have actually inflicted on her, and. [sighs] Like.

R: ...Given that she is someone who doesn't want to be pregnant and does not want to have a child in the world that she lives in.

N: Yeah and - and specifically like she goes through the “If I had a kid here is all of the things that I would hate about that and here's all the things I would be inflicting on them,” and - and I really feel like this is - I honestly - I feel like - I mean, okay. This is not a critique on the author, this is a critique on the character. I don't think this is something that should have been sprung her because I don't think the reaction that they got - I think there could have been other reactions because, like, obviously she is gonna know if she was actually pregnant like, Peeta’s...

R: ...Well…

N: ...not gonna know that if she doesn't, and so I think like….

R: Remember, our - our premise is that the author dis - is the one with the agency to inflict this on her...

N: ...I know…

R: ...and so…

N: ...I’m not - but this is not - this is not a critique on the author.

(32:39)

This is…

R: ...M’kay…

N: ...because I think…

R: ...you mean in the story…

N: ...that the author did on purpose and I think it was part of - just - it's - I mean it is literally the same way that Peerta and Haymitch handle all of the things that they want Katniss to react to live on camera, like that's a thing.

R: Yep.

N: That's the choice the author made. But I think…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...that specifically for this, Peeta could have known. Haymitch should have found out that the idea of being pregnant is awful and…

R: ...terrifying to her…

N: ....or terrifying and not okay with her, and like, but that's - that's readily available information to them and they should have bothered. And I'm not saying the author should have changed the - the decision I'm saying if Peeta was a - was a real person, if Haymitch was a real person they should have bothered…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ... and - and the fact that they didn't means that she just went through a lot of emotional trauma that she had already decided she was not able and willing to handle in real life.

R: Uh, self-sacrifice we're going to also dip back into something in book one that we hadn't talked about there, but it has implications that carry all the way through.

N: Yeah.

R: Because she - she volunteered as tribute…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...um, for…

N: ...for her little sister…

R: ...Prim, because of doing that she then is in a position to have to go back into the arena again, just…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...everything just rippling out from that initial self-sacrifice. She tried to save her sister from something and then ends up put on this weird pedestal and ev - just all this stuff above and beyond just what the Capitol was going to try to do to her as any other tribute.

N: Yeah.

R: And I don't - I don't want to trivialize it as “just what the Capitol was going to do to her” but like it - it is more. It’s - it's more than what she would have gone through if she had just been a tribute and died in book one.

N: Yeah.

R: And…

N: ...Oh absolutely…

R: ...it keeps carrying on and she - she's alive because other people need her.

N: Yeah, so, [sighs] oh my gosh.

R: She gets treated like [a] MacGuffin. We keep talking about how she doesn't even - she doesn't even get told what strategies are around her, who her allies are. She has people coming up to her and being like, “Ugh, here I did the thing you wanted,” and she's like “The thing I wanted, what?”

N: Yeah, there's - there’s a lot of just - so this is - this is interesting to me, actually, because she is literally treated as an object. She's treated as a visual. She's treated as a - thing of a chess piece, and without being given any agency or even any information that she doesn't dig out or figure out herself, and she's really good at figuring that information out but also she's being treated - she's being very literally objectified, but not in a sexual way, not in a feminine - like, oppressively patriarchal way. She's being literally treated as an - an object.

R: I mean there's…

N: ...Shuffled…

R: ...also that…

N: ...around the board.

R: But yeah, I mean.

N: But there's…

R: ...She’s a MacGuffin…

N: ...that but not even - but yeah but like…

R: ...She's a symbol and a MacGuffin.

N: Yeah and - and that's it.

(36:25)

It's not that plus being a person, it's just that.

R: Oh um, a MacGuffin is the object of your fetch quest.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Just in case, yeah.

N: In case people don't read TV tropes for 16 hours everyday.

R: Uh, a fetch quest is where you have to go…

N: [laughs]

R: ...on a quest to go get a thing.

N: That one I feel like is a little bit more self explained.

R: Uh.

N: Um, yeah, so - but it's - it's - it's very incredibly traumatic to her and it causes her to have a lot of issues even just trusting - [sighs] I mean even just trusting her - her literal allies. Uh, like you know because if - if someone walks up and says - I mean and she almost - almost - I wanna - I would even argue almost feels gaslit by this.

R: Oh yeah.

N: Because of that whole, like, people are coming up to her and saying like “I did what you wanted. Here's that thing you've been arguing for. Here look I saved your stupid important people that you've decided were important,” and she's like “What are you talking about and how would you even know that?” and - and it…

R: ...Oh and…

N: ...it’s…

R: ...she told…

N: ...so bad…

R: ...Haymitch “no allies”. She told him “no allies” like, they decided, she was consulted with, made a decision, and it didn't matter, and that - that alienation and helplessness?

N: Oh yeah.

R: She's - she's ready. She doesn't - she's extremely important without feeling worthwhile and as the book goes on she's just ready to die and she's only staying alive long enough to help Peeta live but everybody else including Peeta is trying to keep her alive and is willing to sacrifice this - themselves for her.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Ah, it is, ah, not - trying not to reference other media too much, it is almost as bad as the Winchesters in Supernatural. Um, but it - just she doesn't - everybody's just throwing self-sacrifice at everybody else…

N: [laughs]

R: ...and if you do that back and forth long enough a lot of people are just gonna end up dead.

N: Yeah.

R: Which is what happens. Uh [sighs].

N: She could have been told. She didn't have to be told all of the things they were trying to keep secret, but they a hundred percent could have just said to her, “Hey, I know you're also trying to keep Peeta alive, I know that that's your goal but you should stay alive as long as possible, because you are the symbol for the rebellion and we’re - we are trying to fost-” like, she could have been given literally anything that told her not to just try and die.

R: Yeah.

N: And she wasn't, and then all of her attempts to die were thwarted. Like she…

R: ...But…

N: ...she could’ve…

R: ...was trying to…

N: ...been given some agency…

R: ...die. Yeah because she was trying to day - died they got ported in waste that meant that other people died.

N: Yeah.

R: And…

N: ...and that could have been completely avoided without putting in jeopardy their mission and it just - it just is piling things on her because now not only does she not get what she wanted, not only is she thwarted in her plans, but now other people she cares about are dead and she didn't even get a chance to protect them because the whole point was that she wouldn't have to be there to deal with it.

R: Yeah.

N: And, yeah. It's just a lot. [laughs]

R: Yep, and we put this after PTSD and escalation because - hit - that PTSD probably contributes to her wanting to die and, we went back and forth on…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...which one of them is the one higher in escalation and we went with what contributes to the other so.