N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin.

N: Welcome to Books That Burn.

R: So today, uh, we are reading “The Supernaturalist” by Eoin Colfer, who I think is [a] little bit better known for the “Artemis Fowl” series.

N: Mmhmm.

R: But, uh we really like this stand alone book of his. It is “The Supernaturalist” and, ready to get into our factions?

N: Yeah! Do you want to do it, or do you want me to?

R: I’ll take it. So, for factions, we have the orphans in the Clarissa Frayne Institute for the Parentally Challenged Boys. We have the Supernaturalists; Stefan, Mona, Ditto, and then eventually Cosmo. We have, uh, Professor Faustino. We have miscellaneous guards with uh, cellophane guns. We have paralegals and attorneys. We have the creatures, also known as Unspec Four. We have the people who live outside the city, and then several racing gangs.

N: Our minor character spotlight today, is a character who actually doesn’t make it super far into the book. He’s dead by like, less than twenty pages in I think? At least in my copy. It’s very short, Ziplock. So, Ziplock is the closest thing that our main character has to a best friend, and I’m phrasing it that way because the - the boys at the Institute, who both Ziplock and Cosmo, our main character, are - are part of that group, they’re highly, highly discouraged from having any connections with each other at all, but Cosmo really does care about Ziplock as a person, and considers him his best friend, and actually talks to him about things, and.

R: Well, I would like to - not that they weren't friends...

N: ...No he says that...

R: ...but I want - ok, but also, I think it’s important to mention the reason that they’re around each other all the time, is that they are handcuff buddies.

N: They are in that moment.

R: It sounds like it’s usually them.

N: Oh...

R: ...But...

N: ...I - I read that as...

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...as - not - I read that as it’s random. They are - they are, quote unquote “neighbors” in their pipe.

R: Yeah, and that. When Ziplock dies, they are handcuffed together and that’s why Cosmo gets an opportunity to escape...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...because he didn’t die...

N: ...Oh yeah, but that...

R: ...when they both fell off the roof.

N: Uh, ok. It’s - I mean we don’t have to...

R: ...I have been under the working assumption that they usually were together, but that doesn’t really matter for this particular thing.

N: Yeah, it doesn’t really matter. There is - there’s things that make me think it’s - it’s definitely all the time, but it’s - we’re - we’re gonna get into our thing and not worry about that. We can…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...talk about it later, if we want to. So, with Ziplock, we are gonna kind of note here that a lot of the things, not all, but a lot of the things we’re gonna talk about with Ziplock also happened to Cosmo, but we are specifically focusing on Ziplock and how it affected this particular character. So, the boys at the Institute had, as far as we can tell, pretty much every type of abuse that was not sexual. They were physically beaten. They were psychologically isolated and kept as cowed as - as possible. They were given food that was potentially going to melt their intestines, uh, because it was cheap, like, they uh, they were yelled at, and hit, and punched, and um, reprimanded for just existing as - as people.

R: There’s even a bit where Redwood the guard gets told you know, “Hey, they tried to escape, maybe knock ‘em around a bit, ‘cause then we can test some of the synthetic skin.”

N: Yeah, and - we’ll get into them as a test subject, uh later with Cosmo, but like they’re - they’re - they’re set up to be injured, because they - it - they don’t care about them. Not - not only do they not care, like Robin said, sometimes they even want them to be injured because then they can try out new things, and have an excuse to - to - to do things that might hurt them more. And - so all of this causes Ziplock specifically, to react in a very antagonistic way. Um, he pokes fun at the guards and - and belittles them and calls them out, and draws attention to himself in a way that - psychologically is very, very stereotypical of somebody who feels like the - they - the abuse is taking away their control, which in this this case it literally is, it’s taking away his control on even where to walk and where to be. But, he - he antagonizes his guards, because then he started it, when he gets in trouble. And, there’s definitely signs and specifically, Cosmo mentions in the book that Ziplock usually is - is better at knowing when to stop…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...but right before they escape, he essentially just pushes it too far, and just starts laughing hysterically, when it - when it clearly is too far, and Cosmo notes that he thinks Ziplock is on the edge of that - of that psychological breaking point.

(6:56)

R: And also he’s no longer talking about the possibility of them getting adopted.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Which is something he had held onto for a lot longer, and to me there is a clear line in the book, he starts talking about how they’re not going to get adopted...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...then he starts freaking out and lashing out at the guards, and just [sigh] - and it feels like he has a death wish in there...

N: ...Oh totally...

R: ...and I checked, and he dies on page twenty five, so.

N: Oh yeah. He - he definitely - he gets to that point where he gives up on the possibility of leaving, and basically says, “Ah, might as well die, so either the guards will kill me or,” when there’s this - when there’s this option of escape, Cosmo has to basically force him to run away, because Ziplock was totally ready to just sit there and get killed.

R: Yeah.

N: Like we said, he doesn’t last very long, he actually doesn’t die by death by guard, uh he gets hit by a lightning - electrical generator.

R: Was it a...

N: I don’t think it - I think it was a generator.

R: Let me see… They - ok, you called it a lightning generator, and I’m like “no?”

N: Eh, I said lightning, then I said electrical generator.

R: Yeah, it was a rooftop generator for a building.

N: Yeah. You can just see - he’s not - like we said he’s not in the book [for] very long, um, and a lot of the set up to how he reacts definitely happens way before the book takes place, but even in the short - short few pages that he is in there, you can see him getting closer and closer and closer to that - that suicidal edge, or that psychological edge.

R: Yeah - reckless, where he doesn’t care.

N: Yeah.

R: And because he’s in such a dangerous situation, spending one day feeling very reckless gets him killed.

N: Yeah. Well, to be fair, that was not the thing that killed him, but he was definitely - if that thing hadn’t happened he probably still would have died that day.

R: Yeah. Yeah, uh, unfortunately I think that’s it for Ziplock. Oh, we should...

N: ...Well, Ziplock was not in...

R: ...talk about...

N: ...the book very long. [laughs].

R: I - I do feel like with this whole as - as a transition, I feel like we should mention the reason for his name. He - he - it’s - it’s not the name he was given.

N: No.

R: Uh, the names that they are given are not very original, uh.

N: No. [laugh]

R: We’re not gonna talk about Cosmo’s name? But, uh one time he - what it says is that he had talked too much to the wrong person and got the ziplock from a food baggie super-glued over his mouth..

N: Yeah. And he tells that story over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

R: Yeah.

N: And - and he just talks about it and just tells you about how - how hard it is to only breathe through your nose for a day.

R: And they had to use boiled water to get it off... Like, it’s a whole thing.

N: Yeah. Does boiling water work in real life to get super glue off?

R: I don’t know.

N: I don’t know either. I don’t really want to...

R: ...But I really...

N: ...go buy super glue to test it, but.

R: [laughs]. I think that’s - unfortunately that’s kind of it for Ziplock, ‘cause you know - in a book that’s less than 300 pages, and he’s only in it for twenty-five of them, so.

N: [laughs]

R: He’s not around very long.

N: Yep.

R: Um, which is kind of the point.

N: So moving on to Cosmo. First - Cosmo’s our main character. He's the - he’s not the only character we get a perspective from in the book, but he - it’s also written in third person. [laughs]

R: We follow him most often.

N: We follow him, yeah, so.

R: We should take a minute...

N: ...Huh?

R: ...to - especially leading off of the...

N: ...Uhuh...

R: ...talking about Ziplock as an orphan, Cosmo’s name is Cosmonaut Hill, because they found him on…

N: …[laughs] Cosmonaut Hill.

R: ...Cosmonaut Hill.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, the Institute is not very creative when it names their orphans. Ziplock’s name is unusual because it’s a nickname. Uh, so...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...anyway.

N: I - I actually think - let’s take a second on that one, because I - I actually find this very interesting as an author choice, because there’s - there’s a large - so - so Eoin Colfer has managed to give our characters names that distinctly identify them, and aren’t just “number one”, “number two”, whatever, but also highlight how - like - like you’re saying, like how much the Institute is not given them personalized things, they’re literally making them as generic as possible. They’re just references to - to where they were found or - or something else I would assume. And I just think that that’s a really cool - that’s a really cool thing that the author did, because it - it makes them feel like they’re individual names to us as readers, and we care about them; we’re not just reading a book about “Number Five”.

R: Right and on - on the topic of - of names, especially including like, place names...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...noticing people’s names this time and realizing like, they’re using dinars. Like...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...this is set somewhere, I don't know like - somewhere not super far from Russia would be my guess. Like, I - if I had to - like geographically where this is, like there is just enough reference to things, and like...

N: ...Huh...

R: … “Stefan Bakshir”, like this, geographically, if I had to name a country where I’m like, “Hm? This might - this might be there, this might be Uzbekistan, this might be Ukraine,”

N: Yeah.

R: It’s like somewhere there, uh, which I thought was - it’s - it was an interesting flavor text and background that I didn’t pick up on previously.

N: Okay.

R: While we’re talking about names.

N: Yeah. So, I actually didn’t really connect any - any of this book to a real life place, but that’s mostly because the descriptions of the characters are so varied and so legitimately um, I don’t know if eclectic is the right word?

(13:08)

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like - like Cosmo’s described as being brown hair, brown eyes, brown skin.

R: Yeah.

N: And - and specifically light brown, so he’s not African in origin necessarily, but he is not white.

R: Yeah.

N: Uh, Nova is described as being Latina, physical description included. Um so again, kind of more darker hair, light brown skin. I don’t remember if - if we’re given an eye color for her or not. I don’t know that - did we get his physical description for Stefan?

R: I don’t remember, I wasn’t paying as much attention to the physical descriptions. I was...

N: His - I know his body language is described a lot, but I don’t remember if we get an actual like coloring description at any point. But yeah, I - I actually hadn’t even thought about like, you know, where this - this could be, like the future version of whatever, just because all the people were so varied, and I didn't see it in my head as being one of the countries that I know is more varied like the U.S.. Yeah I actually find that very interesting, because I hadn’t actually picked up on that - on that Russian reference at all.

R: I don’t - again, I don’t know if it’s specifically Russian, but it’s like, “Ok, we’re in this part of the world, ish,” like, we’re not in - a - a lot of books it’s very clearly, “This is where the U.S. used to be,” - like...

N: ...Oh yeah, especially an American author...

R: Yeah.

N: Which I don’t know if Eoin Colfer is.

R: I...

N: ...Don’t really feel like...

R: … I...

N: ...googling it right now.

R: I would be shocked if Eoin Colfer is anything other than Irish*, especially given writing “Artemis Fowl,” but.

N: Oh, that’s true.

R: But...

N: ...That’s true.

[*Eoin Colfer is Irish]

R: But especially when it’s very easy to just have your upgraded... you’re later in time - I feel like we might need to cut this section, because it got a little weird, but, I just…

N: ...What?...

R: ...I think...

N: ...How did it get weird?

R: I don’t know what’s going on - we haven’t talked about Cosmo at all.

N: [laughs] Ok, let’s get - let's just get back to Cosmo.

R: Ok, I was just...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...saying, based on name choices in the book, it’s not the U.S. I mainly should have just talked to you about this before the podcast.

N: It’s fine...

R: Anyway...

N: ...it’s fine...

R: Alright, so...

N: ...I’m actually probably going to leave it because I’m curious what our - what our listeners will think, if they’ve read this book.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, ok. So, anyways, getting back to Cosmo. So, Cosmo is - has this really weird like - actually, Robin, you go ahead and.

R: Sure, there’s this thing called...

N: ...concept...

R: ...paradox of choice where, if you get too many options that is less useful than having only a couple of options and picking the best one between them, uh, you might have experienced this if you’re trying to like, pick what movie to watch, or where to go out to eat and - it balloons to like, ten, fifteen, twenty options, and there - it just - it just stops helping. Uh, I have trouble with this all the time, doesn't sound like Niki does, but - so Cosmo [w]as having a very extreme like whiplash example of this because he goes from the Institute where his life course is - like the uncertainty in his life is “will he die or will he be framed for a crime and sent to prison when he turns eighteen”...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...like that’s - that’s the choice he’s anticipating, and he doesn’t really have room to have preferences about things, like even all his daily actions, uh, like at - at night, once they’re done being test subjects for the day, even then his actions are very like shaped and dictated by what were they subjected to that day? Are they now spending the evening trying to treat chemical burns on their legs, or do they actually get to relax a little bit because they were just rating music videos generated by A.I. Like, yeah, like what he does in the evening is totally dictated by what horror he had in the day.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And, he doesn't have - he doesn’t have enough stuff he likes, he doesn’t have anything he does for fun, so then he - it’s this extreme whiplash, like he goes to - he ends up with this group, again he didn’t choose to end up with the group...

N: ...Right...

R: ...but he just kind of goes with them, and they’re like, “Well, what do you want to do?” and there’s a couple of times where like, he’s asked what he wants to do, and it’s like, “Well, we’re doing this other thing, we’re not doing your idea,” so.

N: [laughs]

R: Several times he’ll get asked what he wants to do, and then it doesn't actually matter...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...which is a very frustrating experience...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...but he’s not used to it mattering so...

N: Even - even being asked is more courtesy - even being asked and - and it not actually counting, is more courtesy than he has ever been given.

R: Yeah, and then his first unprompted decision is, to be self sacrificial by deciding to go on the space walk to, uh, get the thing done with the satellite, and even then it’s - it had a little bit of a feeling of inevitability, like, I don’t know if they were waiting for him to volunteer, because they protested, but narratively they were waiting for him to volunteer, because Stefan was like, “I’m gonna go, dang it, the suit isn’t the right size. Mona,” and Mona’s like, “I - no, can’t,” I don’t remember the reason why she couldn't. And then Ditto is like, “No…”

N: …’Cause...

R: “...I will not. Sure I would fit. I will not go. I don’t care.”

(18:45)

N: Yeah.

R: And then it has this kind of, “Well? Our entire mission is going to be scrapped and everything will be ruined, or...” and then Cosmo volunteers. So even then he doesn't volunteer to do this thing until all the options other than him have been taken away, and...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...I think it’s interesting that the choice is a binary choice at that point. Is he going to volunteer…

N: ...or does nobody...

R: ...or is their mission going to fail? So even the one choice that he makes, is only after it’s reduced to two options. Because he doesn't have any...

N: ...And - and - and it’s important that one of those options is failure.

R: Right.

N: It’s - it’s not just a binary choice, it’s a, “Me or no one’s self sacrificial binary choice,” which is...

R: ...Right...

N: ...more pressure on him to make one option or the other.

R: Right.

N: It’s not just that he’s narrowed it down to two movies, it’s that one of those movies will kill him, and, you know, and then the other movie gets kind of...

R: It’s more - it’s more like, “So we can watch a movie or we can sit outside and stare at our shoelaces and you have to do that.”

N: Yeah.

R: I don’t know, it’s just like.

N: Yeah.

R: You can do something that we want to get done or...

N: Yeah, I guess - yeah, it’s just - it’s so - it’s - it’s really - it’s really interesting ‘cause there’s so many moments, if you go through this book, and you look for all of the times that he didn’t have an option, it’s...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it’s every time.

R: It’s constantly.

N: ‘Cause it’s every time even after he’s been quote-unquote “rescued”.

R: Yeah.

N: And - and - to be fair, some of those - a lot of those are a safety issue, if he doesn’t follow what they’re asking him to do, they will all get caught and die, there is that. But it’s still...

R: ...But also like...

N: …it still contributes psychologically to that feeling of just there is no option and…

R: ...And…

N: ...you just have to do what you’re told.

R: And when Ditto pretends that he couldn’t lay a bridge in his canister without a - without a gas and everybody's like, “Oh, mine’s out too...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...Cosmo, you’ve got to drop a bridge.”

N: Yeah.

R: So he’s got to do this, like, scary thing with high pressure that he’s never done before, and *they* know if he messes up, Ditto has another canister...

N: ...Right...

R: ...but *he* doesn’t know.

N: Right. Well, that one I almost don't even see as a choice, option, thing.

R: Well, I think it is, because uh, he - you know, it’s a scary thing he didn’t know how to do. What if he shot the ladder wrong and the whole thing dragged them over the edge? Like, there’s - he - he doesn't get - someone telling him the framing for “You must do this, there are no alternatives,” and then it turns out there was an alternative that didn’t involve him, and they just didn’t tell him. That is someone controlling his options, even if “Do I, or do I not lay a bridge,” is not a big deal...

N: …Ok...

R: ...I’m more looking at...

N: ...I see...

R: ...the setting where his choice is taken away.

N: See I was thinking more of that as like a test - a psychological test of “Hey, are you going to crack under this pressure, or can you handle things that could get us killed,” but you’re right, that is also...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it is also...

R: ...like it is...

N: ...a control thing...

R: ...and yeah, um, and you know...

N: ...but it has to be...

R: ...I don’t think it was…

N: ...yeah there isn’t really a...

R: ...a bad thing to do in the book...

N: ...there wasn’t really like a - an alternative to doing that, because they kind of had to know. It was either - it was either that or lock him up in their hut and never let him leave.

R: They need to know if - if Ditto had really been out of gas...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...would they have been able to trust him to lay a bridge.

N: Right.

R: But they were like, “Yeah, we don’t have time to switch canisters, like, it’s gotta be you.”

N: [laughs] Yeah.

R: It’s like they - they definitely set it up, um, to reduce his choices.

N: Yeah.

R: They had a plot important reason.

N: Right, the psychological effect though, is - is - I - I - I see what you were saying. It’s still - it’s still the same.

R: Yeah.

N: So, our last final topic is, uh, is Cosmo with regard to the psychological and physical abuse that he underwent in the Institute, specifically stemming from the Institute using the orphans as test subjects for products. And we kinda alluded to this earlier, so, those - those test subjects can be all the way from dangerous medical treatments to just watching music videos and saying which one was better. Um, and they’re - they’re literally being used as disposable test subjects.

R: And I would note that they list, like, a lot of examples of, like, really awful, traumatic stuff...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and then the only, “this is kind of ok” one they list, is that one time that they watched music videos.

N: Yeah.

R: ...So it’s not...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...like a good thing, bad thing, good thing, bad thing…

N: ...No...

R: ...neutral thing, bad thing...

N: ...no. Well…

R: ...it’s…

N: I will say though, with regards to that, it’s totally possible, but we just get a list that backstory wise we just a list of bad things because those are the things that stand out to Cosmo.

R: Oh sure.

N: So - it- there might actually be more, it might be more balanced than, like, ninety nine bad and one ok. However - especially considering that the orphans live past the age of like, six.

R: Yeah.

N: But...

R: ...You can live with chemical burns, so...

N: On your insides though?

R: Eh...

N: ...Well they didn’t...

R: ...I was referring more to the antiperspirants they tested.

N: I was…

R: ...But...

N: ...thinking about their toxic food, also.

R: Yeah.

N: But no, they - they even - so this is even something where, even their rations, their foods are food that were manufactured for the military and then deemed chemically too hazardous to consume.

R: Yeah.

N: But now, a lot of them have been manufactured. They're basically meal packs and, and they've all been manufactured already, and so the company that made this toxic food substance wants to get rid of them, and not lose their profit, and so the orphanage just buys them in bulk and just hands them to the children. And, um, there’s a very real, uh, consequence where their literal intestines might melt overtime from these - from this food.

R: I would point out that - that’s Cosmo’s understanding of it, we don’t know how literal that is.

N: That is true...

R: ...Probably using...

N: ...but...

R: ...melt as a colloquial sense, but it doesn’t…

N: ...I mean…

R: ...make it better...

N: ...Cosmo is pretty darn literal everywhere else, I’m inclined to - think that he’s - he is giving a literal...

R: I’m pretty sure that...

N: ...as literal as he...

R: ...heard that the food...

N: ...understands it.

R: Oh, I’m sure that someone told him that the food that he’s eating is going to make his organs melt, I’m just saying that...

N: ...Oh no, no I...

R: ...we don’t know...

N: ...mean that he - I mean that he has tended to just kind of describe and know...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...the inner and medical - the oh - so, my evidence for that is his understanding of how to save Nova, and the medical, chemical - he might not be able to describe biochemically what is happening, he does know the background of the things that they had to do to survive.

R: Sort of, I mean like...

N: ...I don’t think when - I don’t - when - I don’t think that he would just say that my intestines are going to melt eventually if that hadn’t happened in front of him.

R: I...

N: ...Because he does not - he does not, um, in any way exaggerate or use - euphemisms in - in anywhere else in this entire book.

R: [sighs] I think you’re...

N: ...He’s very literal.

R: So, the meal kits that they’re eating, are known to cause internal bleeding, and yet the Institute fills - still feeds them to them anyway, and doesn't care that it's gonna kill the orphans, ‘cause it’s going to kill some of them, and it’s cheap, and then they don’t have to pay very much for their food.

(26:33)

N: Yeah, I - I do think it is interesting in a horrific way that the Institute does not account for damage from previous bad products when they're testing new ones.

R: Oh that’s... yeah.

N: And - and this is - this is just a - like I said, it’s interesting in a horrific kind of way, because it is totally possible that something that they’re handing to the kids is more toxic and they don’t notice or is more toxic because of previous damage, or is nontoxic and these kids are just dying anyway from the abuse over time.

R: Right.

N: And so, using these kids as - as very irresponsible test subjects just - I mean I - I look at that from a - from a logistics point of view, going - kind of saying like, “That doesn’t seem like it’s actually - it’s - it’s not even a good quote-unquote “smart way” to go about this.”

R: Here’s my suspicion.

N: Is it that the kids just die...

R: ...It’s - it...

N: ...too quickly and don’t - it’s not a...

R: ...well what I was going to say...

N: ...and over time...

R: ...is remember it’s not the Institute who cares about the results. The Institute gets money from people paying - from companies...

N: ...Oh that’s...

R: ...paying them to have the Institute test their thing.

N: That’s true.

R: The Institute does not care about the result.

N: That’s true. That’s fair.

R: Yeah, so it’s not messing up their experiment or something.

N: Yeah, like as long as they get paid, it’s like “whatever”.

R: Yeah, and they’re not telling the clients, “Hey...

N: ...Right...

R: ...uh, it’s possible...

N: ...so most of our children died and it’s because of how we treat them,” like yeah, that makes more sense.

R: Yeah, and “It’s possible that the negative side effects that we reported from your lotion were actually from the antiperspirants that the kids had to test the day before. We don’t know.”

N: “Some one…”

R: ...Like they’re not...

N: “...licked their fingers and now they’re dead, and it’s probably you, because we don’t want to take the responsibility.”

R: Yeah, like, no idea.

N: That’s accurate.

R: But, [sighs] like he - the life expectancy of no-sponsors is fifteen to sixteen and he’s already fourteen so, he’s got like the random wheel of trauma spun every day, doesn’t know what’s going to happen.

N: Yep.

R: No security, no stability, um, the - the creeper slug that hit Nona - sorry the creeper slug that hit Mona, it was, uh, it gave her a dangerous fever...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...and so - I mean he phrases you know, “The kids were sick for weeks.”

N: Yeah.

R: Days or weeks, um, and they figured out a solution.

N: Yeah.

R: Not the Institute, the Institute did not care...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...at all.

N: Yeah.

R: Because there’s always going to be more orphans.

(29:20)

N: So, this is something, purely this is kind of a - a note on how this world is constructed that I - I did not pick up on when I was a teen, but it definitely caught my attention rereading it now, so they had kind of mentioned, uh, like all the no sponsors - well everyone who you don’t know where they belong, you get DNA typed?

R: Mmmhmm.

N: There’s a - a - a genetic test run to see who you’re related to, there’s a lot of people that just haven't had anyone else in the system yet, like a lot. Like there’s a lot of...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...no-sponsors. And that to me, reads like this is - like this whole very terrible system, has to be relatively, broadly speaking, recent.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Because...

R: ...Or...

N: ...how are you gonna get that many kids that just don't have - it - it’s not just don’t have someone in the system, I mean it is, but it’s - but it’s, you don’t have anyone who's been swabbed before.

R: May I - may I offer a terrifying alternative? The Institute needs bodies...

N: ...and just breeds their orphans and then says, “Well, we couldn’t find their parents.”

R: No! Maybe, just, you know, sure they type them, but if it’s not like a rich person...

N: ...they just pretend they couldn't find anyone?

R: And to be clear, that is not in the text.

N: No, we are totally...

R: ...We don’t know whether it’s that the system is...

N: ...we are totally hypothesizing here.

R: We don’t know whether it’s that the system is new, we don’t know whether the Institute just lies because they want more bodies because they’re churning through orphans. Um, either way, it’s pretty horrifying.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, I figure - I figure if they have the infrastructure to have buildings that rotate based on the time of day, it’s been a little bit, but also people like, travel to and from the city, or something, I don’t know. Or...

N: And just drop their kids off.

R: Yeah, just drop off the kids.

N: Hmm.

R: Yeah, ‘cause he was shipped freight class.

N: Oh yeah, that’s true.

R: Like his parents didn’t want him.

N: Right, yeah that is true.

R: So.

N: Yeah, and we don’t - we don’t know enough about the mechanics of that whole world-building, but it was interesting that when I was a kid I was like, “Oh yeah, this is a lot of people with no parents, ok cool.” And then reading it again as an adult, I was like, “Wait a second.” [laughs]

R: You’re like, “This is a horrifying…”

N: ...There is no way...

R: “...number of people.”

N: ...there is no way that this is that straight forward. There is something else happening to create that. Um.

R: Yeah.