Salamandastron
Highlight 2
A Highlight from the Redwall Series by Brian Jacques
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
This fortnight we bring you our discussion of "Salamandastron", our highlight episode from the "Redwall" series by Brian Jacques.
*Book TW for viral outbreak and quarantine, with fever.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:03)
R: Hello everyone! Since this is either a highlight, a stand-alone book, or the first episode in a series, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, we do not read books about real people, and we are not reading historical fiction. The second rule is that we are basing our analyses off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, nor the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (1:04-1:28)
Plot Synopsis (1:28-1:38)
N: “Salamandastron” by Brian Jagues, is a book about; family, friendships, the bonds that keep us together, get us through hard times, and surviving an epidemic.
Factions (1:45-4:26)
N: Hi, I’m Nicole.
R: And I’m Robin, and welcome to Books that Burn. We are discussing “Salamandastron”. It’s a really, really good series. We’re doing this as a stand alone book. It is part of the Redwall series…
N: ...Universe…
R: ...universe.
N: Yeah.
R: You can read - many of the books can be read separately from the rest of the series with little to no, um, detriments involved and…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...this is one of them. Factions! We have at Salamandastron, which is a mountain, uh we have Badger Lord Urthstripe, Mara and Pikkle Ffolger - well Mara, and Pikkle Ffolger.
N: [laughs] They’re...
R: ...They’re - they're not…
N: ...not the same person. Yeah...
R: ...Yeah. Sargent Sapwood and Oxeye. At Redwall Abbey, we have Abbess Vale, Bremmum, Brother Hollyberry, Thrugg and Thrugan.
N: Same dude Thrug is his nickname.
R: Nope - nope. Nope - nope, Thrugg is the sister. Sorry, Thrugg is the brother, Thrugan is the sister…
N: ...Oh my gosh…
R: ...they’re twins. They’re twins.
N: I forgot about that.
R: They’re otter twins, Thrugg and Thrugan. Samkin and Arula, and then baby Dumble. Dumble is actually, uh, telling this entire story as an old person, which is fun.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh.
N: I like - yeah I like that actually. I like that it’s...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...his point of view.
R: Yep. Uh, we have Log-a-log - oh uh, in the Guosim Shrews we have Log-a-log and Nordo. In the Corpsemakers, so - lovely name, we have Ferhago The Assassin. We have Klitch and Goffa, Dingeye and Thura. With the birds, we have Rocangus the falcon, and his father Laird Mactalon, and then we have the eagle Wild King MacPhearsome. Then on the island we have Urthwyte and Loambudd, and you should see the names we decided not to read for the factions list.
N: [laughs]
R: Because.
N: Uh, yeah...
R: ...These are - these are...
N: ...we have a lot…
R: ...character-dense, no minor character goes unnamed. Uh.
N: [laughs] No minor character goes without a life story. I’m gonna go ahead and expand it to that.
R: Yeah.
N: Oh.
R: Yep. Alright, uh...
N: ...No minor character is without a full character portrayal.
R: Yep. even if it’s something as simple as, “This is what kind of creature they are and they yes, or, no.” Uh...
N: ...Fit - fit their character...
R: ...They do or do not fit - fit the species stereotype.
N: Yeah.
R: Minimum, you get that.
Topic 1: Epidemic - Dryditch Fever. Begins at (1:30), CW for plague, fear of death, child in danger, sickness, death.
R: Alright.
N: Ok, so our first topic um, is - is um - it - it - it - it’s...
R: ...Dryditch Fever...
N: …an interest - we’re doing slightly a different take on this one. So, our - our first topic is - is dryditch fever which has in - in game - in - I almost said in game, in book it has a - a cure that the abbey dwellers kind of see almost as a - as a legend. They think it might be a thing they can go get, but maybe it doesn’t exist and during this story, um, there are abbey dwellers getting sick and dying of fever, but we aren’t actually talking about them, so...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...there - there might probably be another book with a plague that we’ll end up talking about with people going through the plague, but this is - this is specifically we’re talking about two characters who heard it was Dryditch fever and were so honestly traumatised about the idea of dying of this fever already, that they voted to go off on the quest for the item that may or may not exist through a place that they may or may not live through, to be the ones that get - bring the cure back, because they didn’t want to be around the sickness. Without, by the way, knowing if they were already infected or not.
R: Yeah, I was thinking about that a lot that...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...they didn’t know if they already had it and...
N: ...Yep...
R: ...one of them, as we mentioned is Dumble, and is referred to as...
N: ...Dumble is a baby...
R: ...Baby Dumble. He’s a baby. He’s adorable. He’s the one...
N: ...He’s a dormouse...
R: ...telling this story once he is an old dormouse, he’s telling this to a young mole...
N: …[laughs] yeah...
R: ...uh, in the framing device, but it’s adorable. It’s, [sighs]. Anyway, I love Dumble. Dumble’s great. Dumble is - he - he spends so much of the rest of the quest being just like, fearless and like...
N: [laughs]
R: … “Yeah Thrugg, go! Get them! Do…”
N: …[laughs] Yeah...
R:” ....do all the things! Yeah! I’m not afraid of a ‘heagle’, like.” [laughs]
N: [laughs] “I’m not gonna die, Mr. Thrugg is here to keep me safe.” Yeah, like...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...that’s - that’s actually a really important thing to note I think, that - so Thrugg is this big, bad, burly otter, who is kind of - kind of seen as almost a - a protective - I mean otters in general tend to be characteristic in Redwall as like staunch protectors of other species, but...
R: ...If...
N: ...especially...
R: ...if you’re not aready...
N: ...Thrugg.
R: If you’re not already already familiar with these books, imagine like, muscled tattooed guy, maybe works on like a shop floor or something, is best buds with like...
N: ...If you play League of Legends...
R: ...an eight year old...
N: ...yeah...
R: ….like, just chilling...
N: ...if you play League of Legends, Braum is an otter, except Braum is too burly and not lean enough.
R: Yeah, this is…
N: ...yeah...
R: ...not “otter” in the queer sense, this is...
N: ...No...
R: ....different. This is just...
N: ...this is an actual animal...
R: Yep.
N: Um, yeah, so - so if you think about it, Thrugg is this - this big, burly - this big, kind hearted, burly, shielded protector, who, you know like Robin said, makes friends with children and is the group babysitter, but also would be the front person on the lines, literally to lay his life down for the Abbey.
R: Uh, and on the makes friends with children front, it’s completely non-creepy. They all live together in one communal place in...
N: ...Oh yeah it’s...
R: ...this Abbey.
N: Yeah.
R: He’s just...
N: ...He - he is...
R: ...one of the babysitters.
N: He is the babysitter that they babies relate to and like, trust and care about. Uh.
(8:02)
R: Yep.
N: And - and there’s multiple, but he’s like the - that’s his character, who he is.
R: Like he’d be in...
N: ...And...
R: ...a Big Brothers Big Sisters program or something.
N: Oh absolutely, he would - he would volunteer to be that person and be the most wholesome and the most positive influence ever. Yeah, and - but he’s this big, burly, staunch protector, and even the potential of this plague - ‘cause they - it’s not even...
R: ...Oh it freaks him out…
N: ...it’s not even confirmed by the time he leaves. It’s like, “We think that this is what’s happening, but we’ve had one person sick so far, so we’ll see,” and he immediately goes, “Nope, I volunteer to go through the woods, and up into the mountains where we Redwallers don’t want to travel because it’s dangerous, because I don’t want to be anywhere near here and I can’t handle plague, and we’re all gonna die, and I can’t die by plague, please send me on a quest.” [laughs] And - and...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...and in conjunction to him, so he doesn't actually - I do want to point out for anyone who has not read the book and is listening anyway, or is...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...partaking in our podcast anyway, he does not take an eight year old with him on purpose. So what happens is...
R: …[laughs] Dumble stows away.
N: Dumble st - yeah! I don’t - does he even stow away or does he like...
R: ...yep...
N: ...follow him?
R: Uh, I think maybe he ran - like he ...
N: ...I think he follows him...
R: … he hid in the bushes or something. Like there was no vehicle to...
N: ...No...
R: ...stow away in...
N: ...and he didn’t like...
R: ...like thematically
N: ...Thrugg would have...
R: ...that’s what he was attempting.
N: Yeah, and Thrugg would have noticed if he was like, in his backpack or something. No, I think Thrugg - I think we get like Thrugg stops to sleep, and he wakes up and starts to move and Dumble like tumbles out of the bushes like, “I’m going too!” and Thrugg’s like, “Wait! But you’re a child. I cannot take a child,” and - Dumble basically goes, “But I’m terrified that I’m gonna die. Please don’t leave me alone. You’re the person I trust to keep me safe,” and Thrugg just kind of has to weigh this in his head and is kind of like, “Do I send this infant dor - well, maybe not an infant, but this baby dormouse back to die by plague, or do I take him with me where he might die by anything else,” and he kind of makes that decision of, “You know what, I’m not gonna send him back to die where he would be terrified and feeling alone and abandoned. Instead I’m gonna take him with me,” and so, but - but then Dumble spends that whole - like - like Robin was saying, Dumble spends the whole time being brave and fierce and, “Get ‘em Mr. Thrugg,” and you know he’s a baby and they get attacked a couple times, and he has his own little stick and he’s swinging it around like, “You won’t take me,” and like, he’s a super - like he’s a fearless little child, and so you have these two characters, an - an adult and a child that are both characterized as being incredibly fearless and incredibly like self contained and - and just really, really sure of - that they’re gonna be ok, and they could help other people be ok. And both of them are terrified of dying by this thing. It’s just this very like, you know. I don’t know. There - there’s so much - I actually really like it because there’s - there’s so many times in books where that fearless character ends up being the person that you see tragically die so others can live, and that’s definitely not the case in this book, but also like, their fears are validated, um.
R: I found in the book where - how Dumble joined him.
N: Perfect.
(11:22)
R: He was kind of following him in the side, along the bushes...
N: [laughs]
R: ...and then ran into a stake and yelled for help.
N: Oh that’s right [laughs]. Yeah, like, he’s - yeah. It - yeah. Dumble is - is great. But no, I - the thing that I think is important for these characters, as far as me personally and then Robin, if you have something that’s...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...you think is different, uh, I think it’s very, very important that these characters' fears are taken seriously, and they’re not told to get over it. Um, they’re - they’re acknowledged and - and you know, treated incredibly respectfully like, big burly otter says, “Hey, I’m terrified to die by this thing,” not a single person says, “Well all of us are terrified to die too,” or, “Anyone could die, you have to stay,” or, ”Maybe you’re not the best equipped to go,” like they actually started out trying, like before he said he was scared of dying, they were actually trying - when he tried to volunteer, they basically hey, “Hey, we’re gonna let other people go, because they might be better equipped to find this thing,” and he goes, “Guys, please don’t make me stay here because I’m - I’m absolutely terrified,” and immediately [fingersnap for emphasis] everybody else who’s in that conversation says, “Oh, ok, then you go. Don’t - we’re not gonna...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...force you to stay here and - and - and be traumatized even if you live,” and - and again,he do - he had that moment where this baby comes at him and says, “Please don’t send me back, I don’t wanna die either,” and he’s the adult and he has to decide, “Am I gonna send you back to the plague, or am I now responsible for your safety as well as the flowers?” The cure is a flower by the way.
R: Yeah it’s a flower - flower...
N: ...uh...
R: ...boiled in spring water.
N: Yeah, and - and he as the adult had that moment where he could either support the kid and say, “No, I - I understand, I’m scared too,” and take responsibility for him, or he could - he could have essentially abandon him and say, “No, sorry, you have to go back to the Abbey,” and he didn’t. He said, “You know what? You’re in danger either way, I’ll be responsible for your safety, I’m not sending you back to be terrified while you’re dying. Come with me.”
R: The other thought that I had is he like, he is a fighter. He is like...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...he goes fishing and does all this like, super physical stuff and so having this, I think enemy is an appropriate word in this case...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...having this enemy that he just can’t see, and he can’t fight...
N: ...Mmmm…and he can’t punch and he can’t
N: [laughs]
R: ...shoot with a sling, or anything...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...that - he - he says, “You know what? Give me something that I can punch. Give me something I can go find - you know what? ...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...Flowers? I’ll go. I don’t know what these flowers look like. I’m gonna go find them,” like, he even like, basically says that...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...like paraphrasing, but he was like, “I’m gonna go find a flower because I can do more good than sitting around being terrified that I’m gonna die.”
N: Yeah.
R: Um, I think he captured that idea pretty well.
N: Yeah.
[Musical Interlude]
Topic 2: False accusation. Begins at (14:45), CW for child punishment, false accusation, murder, terrorizing others, threat of physical violence, weapons.
R: For Samkin and Arula, our topic is false accusation, kind of. It’s got a little bit of a hitch because they are accused of trouble making and murder despite not always doing the specific bad thing, but they’ve almost always done something. Uh...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...Samkin - Samkin did not murder Brother Hal, that was more of a - there’s so many things where beast is used instead of the word man, but saying beast slaughter is what happened doesn’t quite sound right either, um...
N: ...No...
R: ...It’s...
N: ...you’re looking instead of manslaughter?
R: Yeah, so...
N: ...Let’s just call it murder.
R: Well, yeah. It was not intentional, but it’s so like second degree...
N: ...Uh...
R: ...or whatever. They don’t have these terms for this.
N: No.
R: Anyway, um, the vermin who was temporarily staying there at the abbey, uh, the Ding - Dingeye and Thura.
N: Yeah.
R: One of them, they were playing around with the bow and arrow and they accidentally killed Brother Hal.
N: Yeah.
R: And then we have the classic sit - sitcom stumble - [someone] stumbles in, sees Sam holding the bow because he had just found the body, picked up the bow, and was distraught.
N: Yeah.
R: Someone comes in, sees him and is like, “Samkin, how could you?” And he leaves, because he is freaked out, all this to say he and Arula then leave, promising to go get the sword back that was taken, and it’s - it’s weird because the people at the Abbey almost immediately are like, “Oh no, they totally didn’t do this. It was these two, who also vanished and vanished first.”
N: Yeah.
R: So, they get accused of this like, terrible, awful thing, and then before anyone can actually apologize to them, they try and go fix the part of it that is fixable.
N: Namely getting back the sword that was stolen.
R: Yeah, it’s not gonna bring Brother Hal back.
N: No, yeah. This is a weird topic because, well do you - do you have thoughts on it? Do you wanna go first?
R: Yeah. Uh, one of the thoughts that I have is that, eh, it’s a very - so these - these are - these are books that are about moral ambiguity, and so there will be a lot of morals that are just like said and like, “Oh it’s totally like this,” and then if you watch what happens in the books, it’s more complicated than that, and...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...it’s a theme throughout this whole series, and so in this particular spot, someone, in anger and frustration and sorrow, accuses Sam of being there, of being the one to kill Brother Hal because he’s standing over him with a bow, but also like a bow is a weapon where it would have happened from far away, which means he would have had to have come up to...
N: ...Well...
R: ...Brother Hal and still be standing…
N: ...Ah…
R: ...with the bow. Like it’s not impossible…
N: ...No...
R: ...just...
N: ...that - I mean he could have killed him and then walked up.
R: Oh, sure.
N: There’s…
R: ...If it had...
N: ...nothing stopping that, and also we don’t know what kind of bow it was. There are bows that - they’re not - they’re not hand-length weaponry…
R: ...We know...
N: ...but they’re very close range, and...
R: …We know that the vermin were shooting it kind of far away and it arced up and over and came down and killed him, is...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...how it’s described...
N: ...yes, but that...
R: ...So this bow’s...
N: ...that’s...
R: ...capable of some range.
(17:58)
N: It - I mean yeah. It’s capable, well yeah. I’m - I’m not saying it’s not capable of range, I’m just saying that like, there is nothing that stops a bow being pointed at you point blank, and there's also...
R: ...Oh that’s true...
N: ...nothing that would have stopped him from walking - again walking up to see what happened, or see who it hit...
R: ...My main point...
N: ...or whatever...
R: ...is it feels like a very like, terrible - I don’t know. I - I - I intensely dislike, and honestly this is a big part of why I - I just don’t watch sitcoms, I - I don’t like them personally. The thing that I don’t like about them is situational misunderstandings where if everybody paused and just talked to each other for about a minute, you could avoid the rest of the episode and...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...this feels like one of those where Samkin and Arula, maybe they would still have gone on the quest to get the sword, ‘cause that’s an important thing. We’ve got like, spooky vision stuff from Martin the Warrior. If you’re not reading this series don’t worry about that.
N: [laughs]
R: They’ve got spooky vision stuff so they’re gonna go on this quest, but they could have gone without thinking that everyone in the Abbey thinks that Sam murdered somebody.
N: Yeah.
R: And all they needed to do was not immediately be like, “[gasp] Sam how could you?” Because I don’t know, I’d be like, “Oh no! Is he really dead?” And then Sam could be like, “Yeah. I found him like this, I also am extremely horrified. Who could have done this?”
N: I - I would like to give some context to what you’re saying.
R: Sure?
N: Because...
R: ...I just...
N: ...I think...
R: ...I have such an aversion to this trope, it’s really hard for me.
N: That’s fair. I - I mean it - it’s not a good trope in my opinion either. I - I also dislike some - sitcoms. The closest thing to a sitcom I enjoy watching is Gilmore Girls. Which...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...is only a sitcom I think by the loosest of...
R: ...Mmhmmm...
N: ...storytelling margins. Um, but - so the - the thing that makes the Abbey dwellers jump to this is that they - is that Sam has got into trouble for shooting and almost killing people actually in the past...
R: ...Previously...
N: ...with this bow before, yeah. Uh, there - there is a notable Abbey dweller who Sam - Sam shoots things near the Abbey dwellers for fun, because he’s the “troublesome kid” and there’s actually a, and I don’t remember the species of creature right now, who is walking around the Abbey with a permanent - like - like stripe separation in their fur from his arrow. So...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...Sam having been playing around again and actually shot someone this time, from the Abbey dweller’s perspective is not that far fetched, and it’s not a wild accusation out of nowhere. It’s also not - like the - ok. I have - I actually do have a couple thoughts on this one. But they’re not necessarily at Sam. I - I think in general in Redwall, this is just my opinion and I have read a lot of these books.
(21:01)
R: Mmhmm.
N: Uh, for context, I - I’m not only speaking about this particular book, but it’s definitely this book. I think that the creatures who live in specifically the Abbey itself, are really terrible disciplinarians.
R: [laughs]. Oh yeah.
N: Just in general. Like, Sam gets in trouble for shooting things that are near another person, and instead of - and - and this is not the first time, right?
R: Nope.
N: But instead of teaching him, say, like safety with the bow...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...or any kind of accountability for his actions, instead it’s just, “Well,” in - instead literally it’s just, “Well we’re just gonna give you manual labor and tell you - to confine you to a room for like 24 hours and then you’re free to go, and that’s it.” Nothing about that is going to change or help mitigate his behaviour. He’s not...
R: ...And to be clear...
N: ...doing it to be mean. He’s...
R: ...To be...
N: ...he’s just - he’s - he’s literally not being taught. He’s not being redirected. He's not being told what to do instead. He’s not being told - he’s not being given actual boundaries or hard limits. He’s basically being told, “Sam, you did it again,” and he’s like, “But I didn’t aim that close this time,” and they’re like, “Bad child,” and it’s - it’s like, hey, how about giving this kid like, giving him like safety training...
R: ...Yeah...
N: …’cause he does not have that at this point. There’s nothing in the book that even evidences that there’s been anyone who’s given him any kind of boundaries like that, that he could even adhere to. He kind of is learning by trial and error how close is too close...
R: ...Mhmmm...
N: ...and like that’s it, and that’s not - that’s not how you teach weapon safety.
R: And to be clear this incident, this is when he shoots near somebody and freaks people out, not when he gets accused with...
N: ...when he gets...
R: ...murder.
N: Right.
R: That’s separate.
N: Right. This is earlier in the book. And also in - in the flip side of this, there’s - his - his punishment is being - is given to… name, I know I just typed it on here.
R: Arula?
N: No. Uh, oh, Brother Hollyberry, who runs the...
R: ...Oh ok...
N: ...the infirmary. Um, and Brother Hollyberry’s reaction is again, not to teach him what else to do instead, it’s not to hold him accountable for his actions in a meaningful way. Instead Brother Hollyberry’s reaction is, “Well, I don’t like seeing you in trouble, and I don’t think the punishment fits the crime, so we’re actually not gonna punish you. Just tell everybody that I had you scrub my infirmary really well, and here have some candy.”
R: Mmhmm.
N: Like - like that’s the flip side of the… not redirecting or teaching accountability. It’s literally just, “No I don’t like it. Here have some sugar and you’re - you’re off the hook, and I’ll convince them that I worked you really hard.” Like it’s really bad, it’s really bad that tech[ing], just parenting as a group. It’s bad group parenting. And he doesn't learn a lesson.
R: Hmmm.
N: Like, and - and Redwall - it’s - it’s interesting because these books it’s consistent, the people in the actual Abbey itself are not good parents in this - in this regard. They just aren’t. There’s other examples of very parentage and very good responses from parents of - of uh, tiny woodland creatures, but they never live in the Abbey. They’re always somewhere else. I almost wonder if that should go in our next section but that’s ok.
[Musical Interlude]
Topic 3: Parent/child relationships. Begins at (24:30), CW for threats of murder, child abuse, verbal abuse, rage, descriptions of violence.
R: For our next topic, we’re doing a little bit of a different thing because we noticed that there were five distinct parent-child pairings in the books, all with different dynamics, and I’m going to start us out by talking about Laird Mactalon and Rocangus. I love these two.
N: [laughs]
R: Um, Mactalon is an amazing name for a falcon.
N: [laughs]
R: And...
N: ...both - I really want to know if - if uh - if um his son’s name means what it means, ‘cause I bet it means something and I just don’t have...
R: Yeah. So...
N: ...What does Angus mean?
R: ...we...
N: …[gasps] Does angus mean some - ok. I’m gonna look this up while you talk, sorry.
R: For Laird Mactalon and Rocangus we don’t really have enough of them to really see if they fight. Rocangus is extremely self sufficient. We meet him when his wing is possibly broken, definitely very injured, and he basically calls his dad to have him come rescue him from the crows that just attacked him. Super excited to see him, they seem to work really well together. Uh, everything’s going smoothly. If I sound so upbeat it’s because every one of these relationships is going to be a little bit complicated, if not necessarily worse than this one. Uh, again not to say that they have some perfect relationship, but for what we see, they’re - like they lean on each other without being, like, extremely codependent, they seem like they function really separately a lot of the time but can come together when it really matters for something. And uh, apparently his name possibly means roc-choice, based on our googling.
N: It means he is the chosen rock. [laughs] He’s the chosen bird. The...
R: ...Oh my goodness...
N: ...one chosen bird.
R: The one cho - oh ‘cause rock is bird. Oh that’s...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...so good. Alright...
N: ...it’s a type - yeah.
R: Um. That’s fun. Uh, we did some googling.
N: Log-a-log and Nordo are a shrew parent-child, father-son, and they are great. They’re actually a really solid example of good supportive parenting, strong like support of a parent and - and bad - and his parent, Log-a-log is in a - a leadership position, and his son is essentially his second in command...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...and it’s a - a good example of an executive officer who does his job and backs up his dad but he’s not scheming. He’s not trying to jockey for power. He’s not trying to undermine him in any way, shape, or form. But also, Log-a-log asks for his son’s opinion on things, and it’s teaching him things “on camera,” like he’s - he’s still very much his father, and he’s - he’s teaching him how to be a good - a good person and a good leader, and a good like, member of their - their little tribe, and it’s - it’s really great honestly. Uh, it’s just - it’s just this really shining, wholesome example of a - a father-son pair that are - are depending on each other. And there’s a couple of moments where they have to depend on each other in - in life threatening situations, and both of them are - are just great at - at supporting and keeping each other safe, and also keeping the rest of the members of their tribe as safe as possible. And it’s just - it’s beautiful honestly.
(27:54)
R: Alright, I’m gonna take it away from Loambudd and Urthwyte. Um, technically Loambudd is also the fath - is also the mother of Urthstripe, but doesn’t get to parent him at all, so...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...for the one that she does get to parent, actually technically she’s the grandparent, um, she’s super protective. Acts a bit like a helicopter parent. Oscillates between sheltering Urthwye, even though he is fully grown, they are badgers by the way, um, oscillates between sheltering him and telling him about the gruesome murder of his parents and the loss of his brother who is presumed dead to them. Um, to the point that hearing the name Ferhago, that is the one who killed his parents, sparks a badger rage which is kind of like a berserker rage, if you’re familiar with D&D type things, uh, and also non D&D things, berserker rages are a very old thing. Anyway, sparks a badger rage - and just at hearing this name because his mom has spent so - his grandmother has spent so much of his life telling him how awful it was that his parents were murdered, um, when they were trying to make peace with Ferhago and it’s got a lot of this feeling of grooming for [a] position that you might never have and you’ll really never have it and I don't know, it feels like she did mmm - a lot to actively traumatize him as he was growing up, because rather than having it be, “You’re parents are gone. They were killed,” it’s “So they were killed and it was like this, and the blood looked like that,” or whatever. We don’t know exactly what she said. We get the impression that it was super dark. I just - uh, for me the way he freaks out, just when someone says the name...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...just that he goes into that rage like, that points to just a lot drilled in about this being just this awful, awful thing. Um, we pretty much just see them in this crisis mode, but also she uses him to scare people off of the island.
N: So our next pair is uh Urthstripe and Mara. Uh, Urthstripe is a badger and so is Mara, but Mara is not his biological daughter, I believe?
R: Yep, that’s right.
N: Uh, and Urthstripe is a very - a very strict in a stifling kind of way, uh, parent. He...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...constantly is getting her in trouble - well, not getting her in trouble. [laughs]. She is constantly in trouble with him because she doesn't do what he wants her to do, or what she wants - yeah, he wants her to do, and she - she just has her own opinions, and she has her own thoughts and we don’t get a ton of - of kind of the set up for this. We really just kind of see the aftermath of his parenting of her, but it has resulted in something like at the beginning of the book she just leaves the mountain where they live, Salamandastron, and is gone for almost 48 hours, and comes back, and he’s terrified that she’s dead or injured or lost, and his - and her response to him when he comes back, he essentially just yells at her like, “How - how could you possibly do this to me, because this is not a way for you to have treated me by vanishing for that long. You could have been dead, and I wouldn’t have been able to protect you. How could you do that to me?” And her response is, essentially, “Quit trying to trap me, I can do what I want.”
(31:28)
R: Mmhmm.
N: There's a whole - like that - that to me looks like there is a whole background there of him controlling things that probably she would - you know, there would have been just better methods of teaching her - again, kind of a similar thing of - of - back in our - our uh - our second topic, like there would have been way better ways to redirect her and teach her why things were boundaries the way they were, and help get her on board with - with her own safety, really, honestly. And instead he went the, “yell at her until she does the things that he wants” route, which absolutely did not work, and it - it has resulted in her basically - basically not trusting him and not trusting that his boundaries have anything to do with her safety, and she thinks he’s just trying to control her. And it’s...
R: ...It’s...
N: ...it’s really toxic.
R: And the one thing I wanna say is like she rebels by bringing home vermin, and then he freaks out...
N: ...Oh my gosh! Yeah...
R: ...he freaks out that she brought home vermin, but also he was stifling her so much that she was like, “You know what? I’m gonna have friends you don’t like, and I brought them home,” and he’s like...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...he’s like, “You brought home friends I don’t like and I’m kicking them out.” And she’s like, “Why’d you kick my friends out?” Like it’s...
N: ...And - and the...
R: [sighs]
N: ...kicker on that part, is that he is not wrong that they’re scouting the place to try and like, kill them all. Like he’s not
R: ...Oh yeah, he’s not wrong...
N: ...he’s not - he’s not wrong. They’re absolutely - they were absolutely that person that you - that you know the parent sees is not - is gonna be an actual danger to you and calls it, but because you have a terrible relationship with your kid, and you don’t treat them very well, instead of heeding any kind of - of warning signs of this person being toxic, or abusive, or - or whatever - whichever real life equivalent you want to relate it to, instead of being able to heed those warning signs, the child just goes like, “Well,” literally in this case, “You’re not my real dad. I’m gonna have friends that I want to.
R: I think even explicitly “You’re not my real dad.” Um...
N: ...I’m...
R: ...I don’t know it...
N: ...pretty sure that - yeah...
R: ...yeah, and...
N: ...it - it’s at least implied by how much she - she thinks about the fact at that point that he adopted her and that...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...point he’s just trying to - to make her in his image or whatever.
R: It has...
N: ...Yeah, it’s really sad...
R: ...a little bit of the feel of her saying, “Why don’t you like my friend just because he’s got like two tattoos and some green hair,” and he’s like, “No, I don’t like your friend because he thinks that it’s funny to juggle switch blades and then ask the baby if he wants to try it,” like...
N: ...Yeah [laughs] It’s kind of one of those where she’s like, “You would have if the baby was like me as a baby, and wanted to try it, old man,” and - and he’s like, “But wait, hold up. You could have died,” and she’s like, “That was fine.” Like it’s that - it’s...
R: Just to be clear...
N: ...over and over and over...
R: ...there’s no baby involved, but it’s just like...
N: ...No, there’s no baby. That was a made up example but that is definitely her attitude toward her father and it’s - it’s...
R: ...Right...
N: ...really tragic.
R: He’s not wrong, but he is also prejudiced so it’s like, weird.
N: Yeah, and - and also he’s treated her to the point where like, she doesn’t know that he’s not wrong. She doesn’t trust him so...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...it doesn’t matter.
R: Alright, I think this next one also is gonna go a little longer, ‘cause we got more to say because oh my goodness, Ferhago and Klitch.
N: [laughs]
R: Ok, so.
N: Alright.
R: Uh, we have uh, his full name uh, in case you missed it in the list of people, he is the leader of the Corpsemakers. He is Ferhago the Assassin, and his son Klitch is actively trying to undermine his authority, trying to kill him, arranges for some other people to try and assassinate him. Um, there’s a bit where f - Ferhago is like, “You know what? We’re gonna do it this way as long as I’m alive,” and Klitch is like, “Yeah, as long as you’re alive.”
(35:05)
N: Yeah.
R: Um, yeah, it’s like “I’m - I’m gonna kill you.” Uh, they are father and son. There is no word any word of a - a - a mother involved. Uh, [laughs] a - at all, uh, no idea, uh.
N: To be fair, in all of these examples, it has been one parent and one child.
R: Well true, but...
N: ...So this is - this is not a; they’re the assassin and the mother is gone. Like…
R: ...No...
N: ...every single one we’ve talked about has had a single parent.
R: Uh...
N: ...They’ve all got single parents...
R: ...yes, we un - we know what happened to Loambudd’s partner.
N: Mmhmm.
R: We...
N: ...I don’t think we know...
R: ...Urthstripe...
N: ...about anybody else...
R: ...Urthstripe never one, we...
N: ...Right...
R: ...don’t know about Log-a-log, but also she’s probably alive, she’s just not on the boat with them...
N: ...Right...
R: ...like...
N: ...but as far as like - as far as the dynamic we - we witness, it’s always single parent to single child. It’s never...
R: ...Well
N: ...it’s never an example of coparenting. Is...
R: ...Yes...
N: ...my point...
R: ...but I’m also thinking of I don't think there’s any - there’s no women in the Corpsemakers, is the thought I’m having.
N: Why would you assume that?
R: There's no one who is treated as a feminine character in the Corpsemakers that we see in the book. There’s at least no specific….
N: ...Ah...
R: ...portrayals of women. This is not true of all vermin bands - of like, other vermin bands and other books have definitely female characters, I’m just noticing it here.
N: Ok.
R: Um.
N: I mean it is also totally possibly that Ferhago basically said, “You - you - I need a child. You will be my wife for like...
R: ...Oh yeah…
N: ...until they’re born.”
R: Yeah.
N: Like that...
R: ...No...
N: ...is totally a potential.
R: That’s I’m...
N: ...um...
R: ...bringing it up, because...
N: ...oh, ok...
R: ...right, because it feels like something like that might have happened.
N: Yeah.
R: Uh, there’s no like, “I’m gonna tell mom,” it’s like...
N: …[laughs]
R: ...they just hate - they hate each other, and they’re trying to get people to make the other one die, or - and - while being able to have like plausible deniability of, “Me? I didn't do anything. Yeah, the person I talked to ten minutes ago just tried to kill you, but it was, you know, you’re not gonna be around forever. I don’t know why you think you’re immortal...
N: [laughs]
R: ...but I didn't do anything.”
N: Well...
R: ...um...
N: ...that’s...
R: ...it’s this really terrible like, old...
N: ...gosh...
R: ...person, young person fight.
N: It’s really just bad. I mean Ferhago, at least at first, explicitly says, “If you are plotting with my son, I will kill you...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...but you will not touch my son because this is my - my child - my property,” essentially.
R: Yeah.
N: So, it - for, so...
R: ...Progeny... property...
N: ...Klitch...
R: ...what’s the difference? [sarcastic tone]
N: [laughs] Right, Klitch is definitely planning to murder his father.
R: Oh yeah.
N: His father though, like put in effort for Klitch to exist, [laughs] and...
R: Presumably, like something happened.
N: Right, uh, but definitely - definitely threatens people for even thinking about...
R: ...Oh yeah, he doesn't ...
N: ….I - I just want to make that clear...
R: ...Oh yeah...
N: ...he...
R: ...he doesn’t want anybody else as his second. He wants his enemy right where he can see him.
N: Right.
R: So, uh that’s the rundown of parent-child relationships in this book. Thank you for bearing with us through this lightning round.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, overall they run the gamut from actually pretty cool, and doesn't’ really seem to be traumatic in this book, to oh my goodness, no positive interactions. Oof.
N: No even positive mentions.
R: Uh...Yeah…
N: ...Like…
R: ...like…
N: ...there is…
R: ...oh my goodness...
N: ...nothing.
R: Uh.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (38:45).
R: For the wrap up and ratings. For the gratuity rating for Dryditch Fever.
N: Uh...
R: ...What do you think?
N: Um, I - I honestly, I think this one is mild.
R: Yeah? Well, oh - I mean, oh yeah. Yep.
N: They - I mean there’s really not - there’s no real graphic descriptions of anything. Like the most we - we get like descriptions of essentially flu-like or - like flu-like symptoms...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...and then we find out that someone is dead. Like there's - there’s no on screen, there’s no descriptions of bodies, there’s nothing - there’s people...
R: ...somebody leaves the room, comes back, someone’s gone.
N: Yeah. Like they...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...they - they talk about feeling dizzy and that they’re gonna go lie down in the infirmary, and that’s like the most - even - graphic symptom description in there. I think it’s mild, which is...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...kind of impressive for an epidemic. [laughs], Actually...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...especially because this as a reader, you absolutely know what’s going on. Like...
R: ...Oh yeah...
N: ...you really really do, but it’s nothing - nothing difficult to read.
R: I am doing mental comparisons to how uh...
N: … “Briar’s Book”...
R: ...Tamora Pierce’s...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...handled the same thing. Yep.
N: Yeah.
R: Yep. Um.
(40:14)
R: For Samkin and Arula.
N: False accusation.
R: False accusation, yes.
N: [sighs]
R: Um.
N: I think this is at least moderate.
R: Yeah.
N: I don’t wanna go severe.
R: No, no, but moderate. Um, it - it - the - the accusation doesn’t - it doesn't last very long...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and there’s - the consequences are low.
N: yeah.
R: The distress is...
N: ...Averted...
R: ...midrange.
N: The distress...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...is almost averted by other events.
R: Yeah, it had the potential to be extremely bad.
N: Yes.
R: But, it - it - it’s a Redwall book, and it got managed pretty well, and mitigated and...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...you know. And, I - I don’t mean that in a bad way at all.
N: No - no it was a ...
R: ...there’s a definite, there’s a definite style for these.
N: It...
R: ...They’re made for middle schoolers...
N: Yeah, it was mitigated...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...in a very reader-protective way.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, and - and - and you know, I would agree, in a very classically Redwall, reader protective-plot - clear...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...plot reason way. But, that’s fine. That’s ok.
R: Absolutely.
(41:29)
R: Uh, moving on to integral, interchangeable, or irrelevant for Dryditch fever
N: [laughs]
R: Interchangeable. It didn’t have to be this, but this was a really good thing to use.
N: Did - ok. Did this have to happen.
R: Uh. Wait, no! Oh, wait!. This is the… this plotline is droppable.
N: This plot line is completely droppable.
R: Oh, youre right.
N: The only two people who left the Abbey, where it mattered that they left the abbey, had no...
R: ...Happen…
N: ...happened…
R: ...yeah nothing to do with this...
N: ...before the fever.
R: Yeah, you’re right. I mean, I wouldn’t want to give up Dumble and Thrugg, but the only thing it matters for is the framing device? But...
N: Yeah, it literally just - just matters that our narrator is somehow part of the story, but like.
R: Sure.
N: I mean, as a...
R: ... Yeah…
N: ...as a plot thing. I mean Redwall is pretty plot-dense anyway, like there’s always multiple threads, and converging in various angles, but this particular plot thread is pretty self contained for a Redwall book.
R: And you know which one is droppable because it’s definitely not the one that has to do with Salamandastron, you know.
N: Right. [laughs]
R: That the title is.
N: Like if we had to pick one, yeah absolutely.
R: You’re right, this is irrelevant, my goodness.
N: It’s a pretty big...
R: ...uh…
N: ...section of the book to be irrelevant to the overall plot.
R: Like it’s fun, I’m glad it’s in here.
N: Oh, it’s great.
R: Yeah.
N: It - it - it has...
R: ...It...
N: ...some of...
R: ...You’re right...
N: ...it has some of my favorite moments of the book, but also it’s completely irrelevant to the rest of the story.
R: Yeah, I guess maybe it’s - it’s levity in the dark times.
N: Jesus.
R: Oh, what - let me rephrase, this the fever. The things that happen...
N: [laughs]
R: ...uh, because of - the things that happen as the reaction to the fever are the levity...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...in the dark times.
N: Yeah.
R: The fever is not levity. I want to be clear about that. I don’t think epidemics are fun.
N: No.
R: No one in this book thinks that they’re fun.
N: I almost feel...
R: ...Uh…
N: ...like - I almost feel like the - I almost feel like this particular topic was inserted to occupy the Abbey dwellers?
R: Oh yeah.
N: You know? It’s - it almost has that kind of a feel of like, “Well we need something for them to do on camera.”
R: But if they hadn’t had anything to do, the rest of the story would have just happened.
N: Right.
R: Alright. I think that’s enough time on an irrelevant topic, um.
N: [laughs]
R: It feels wrong, but I - I do agree with you.
(43:42)
R: Moving on to false accusation: is integral.
N: Yeah, yeah absolutely. This one is, um.
R: This one’s integral.
N: This one’s integral.
N: Parent/child relationships. Also integral. All of them.
R: Yep, uh, if you skipped that section, there are five distinct and very interesting arent/child dynamics...
N: ...We did...
R: ...that we discuss.
N: We did kind of run...
R: ...in...
N: ...through the differences, and...
R: ...did a - we did a…
N: ...it’s pretty cool...
R: ...lightning round. Yeah. Um, but yeah, each of them is integral in a different way.
N: Mmhmm.
R: So. Think that’s it for that.
(4:25)
R: Was the trauma treated with care? For Dryditch Fever...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...oh yes.
N: Absolutely.
R: Yes. Ah, yep. So much care. So much care. Like, mild and care don’t always have to go together.
N: But this definitely does. Yeah.
R: This definitely does. Yep.
(44:43)
R: For false accusation, I...
N: Enough?
R: I think may - either enough or no. I - I’m very sensitive to this trope. I don’t...
N: ...That’s fair...
R: ...I don’t...
N: ...Well ok...
R: ...I just don’t like this trope...
N: ...Ok, putting...
R: ...but I do think...
N: ...putting aside...
R: ...that it was enough care, putting that aside...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...I do think it was enough...
N: ...I’d say putting aside the trope...
R: ...care I’m just...
N: ...and focusing on the trauma.
R: Oh sure. Yeah. I...
N: ...It wasn’t just treated...
R: ...putting aside the trope is...
N: ...with care but.
R: It was enough care, I’m just extremely sensitive to this trope. Not - Not that things happened, I just don’t - I just don’t like it, and it - it irks me when it happens. But it’s - it’s not a problem with the book.
N: No, no, no, no. It’s - it’s...
R: ...I want to…
N: ...actually very...
R: ...be clear about that...
N: ...It’s actually very well done in the book.
R: Yeah. Um.
(45:36)
N: Parent/child relationships. Well, uh?
R: Uh.
N: [laughs]
R: Should we...
N: ...I would say…
R: ...So…
N: ...It’s...
R: ...for Mactalon and Rocangus...
N: ...We can’t do these separate...
R: ...I don’t think there’s anything...
N: ...well...
R: ...to be careful about.
N: Yeah.
R: Log-a-log and Nordo.
N: Was enough care. There are some things…
R: ...Enough...
N: ...the threats that they went under and things that they had to deal with were...
R: ...Mmhhmm...
N: ...treated with pretty good care, I think.
R: Yeah. Loambudd and Urthwyte, I think... was enough care with one very dramatic moment that speaks volumes about their relationship and is a really cool “show not tell”.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Um, so that’s part of why I think that was with care. Urthstripe and Mara, that lingers so much. I don’t think that was shown with care. I think that that has…
N: ...I think it was - I think it was more brutal than it had to be honestly.
R: Yeah.
N: I would - I would almost argue that Urthstripe and Mara were more brutal than necessary, and Ferago and Klitch were less brutal than necessary.
R: Yes. Ok...
N: ...Which is...
R: ...I agree...
N: ...interesting, because reading it...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...they almost feel - they feel very similar, but they're not.
R: Right. I - I think a lot of work was done so that Urthstripe and Mara feel about as bag as Ferhar - bad as Ferhago and Klitch, but uh, which is not great...
N: ...It’s also very impressive...
R: ...but Urthstripe and Mara. Mmhmm.
N: That’s a very like - if that was intentional, that...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...that - that takes some skill. I - I just...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...that’s a particular type of writing skill, and that - yeah. It’s very - it’s very...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...interesting to read.
R: Yeah.
N: We actually...
R: ...wow...
N: ...for uh - for full disclosure here, we had originally, now originally we didn’t put them in a specific order when we started putting our - pur parent/child pairings in order of escalation, we actually flipped these two at one point, because we started out with Mara listed more severely than Ferhago and Klitch, and then we were like, “Wait a second. Hold on,” and we had to change it.
R: Only one of these...
N: ...Yeah, only one...
R: ...has...
N: ...of these has like actual threats involved.
R: ...As...
N: ...but like...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...It was - it was weird
R: ...Ferhago has assasination attempts...
N: ...It was weird...
R: ...so uh.
N: We definitely looked at it was like, “Ooh, but - but Mara sticks within your brain and you think,” but it’s not - it’s definitely not as bad.
R: Yeah.
N: Alright.
R: It’s weird. Yeah, and that’s where the gratuity rating and the “with care” are two separate ratings for a reason.
N: Yes, absolutely.
(48:09)
R: Moving onto point of view. Uh, this camera jumps around so much.
N: [laughs] I think...
R: ...Jumps around.
N: Oh my gosh.
R: Oh my goodness.
N: I’m not gonna.. .
R: ...Just.
N: And on the off chance that we ever in any way, shape, or form, try to publish our listing of...
R: [laughs]
N: ...how we’ve rated these books, which might happen at some point, there - there’s a - it’s - it’s not out of the running, it’s just not our current plan.
R: Yeah.
N: Guys, everyone, I’m not listing individual names for these. I’m just not even going to - to - to t - try.
R: No, no...
N: ...For the fever...
R: ...we...
N: ...we have good like, I don’t know, ten? Twelve? Different names with...
R: ...Ok, let’s put it this way…
N: ...this?
R: ...this. We - we decided not to type, decided to type and then decided not to read, and...
N: [laughs]
R: ...read about an equal number of names, and if you listened to our factions list, this was our longest factions list that I can recall. Uh...
N: ...if - if...
R: ...unless we record something that we haven’t recorded yet and stick it in further...
N: ...I mean...
R: ...just for kicks to get ahead of this...
N: ...of - of all...
R: ...record?
N: ...of all of the books that we even have - that I have any kind of a reference for, that are even on our possible review list, this is the longest list of characters that we would need to name.
R: Yeah.
N: Like full stop.
R: And I...
N: ...No questions.
R: I - I typed up this list. I didn’t even type up everybody we could have typed...
N: ...No...
R: ...and then we decided to not read about half of what we typed.
N: Yeah...
R: ...like...
N: ….we - we could have easily read four or five times as many names, and not run out of book characters.
R: Oh, yeah. This is one of those, where every minor character gets a name, like...
N: A - a name, and a backstory, and a cool story from their childhood, and also that one thing that happened yesterday that floated through their head. [laughs] Like, they get every - they’re every - there - there is no such thing as undeveloped character in this book.
R: Every hare who wanders into the room with Urthstripe...
N: ….[laughs] has a - has a full...
R: ...in the mountain...
N: ...personality...
R: ...has a name - has a name and a personality. I love the Long Patrol, but, and I mean the group.
N: Yeah.
R: I also love the book “The Long Patrol,” but oh my goodness. There’s so many characters like, everybody is a person, and it’s great for writing and terrible for podcasting. Oh my goodness.
N: [laughs] It - it’s really good to read. It’s awesome to read.
R: Yeah, I am so...
N: ...I’m just reading...
R: ...uh...
N: ...for under - under...
R: ...who's to say...
N: ...Dryditch fever, for both our point of view and our point of trauma and - and the aftermath, I’m just writing “too many”.
R: Yes, uh...
N: ...It’s just a lot of people. A lot of people who you have their point of view of them being sick, you have a lot of people, of watching other people get sick. You have the point of view of technically both of our characters...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...who leave to avoid getting sick. You have the point of view of the person who’s the adult. You also have the point of view of the child who grows up to be the narrator, ‘cause you get him narrating the story. You literally have his point of view, like...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...this whole book is his point of view technically. Like you...
R:...Technically...
N: ...Technically. Um, but he...
R: ...I refer to it as a...
N: ...is a kid...
R: ...framing device.
N: Yeah, it’s - it's just...
R: ...It’s a framing device, not an active narration. I wanna be clear about that.
N: Yeah…
R: ...Because those are two different ways to handle it...
N: ...it - it is. But it’s also like, we definitely do know what this child thought, because he’s the one telling the story, um, it - it’s just, there’s a lot - a lot. That point of view jumps, constantly. Um.
(51:38)
N: False accusation, again we get like five different people. Yeah. We get - ‘cause we um, Samkin, Arula, uh, the...
R: ...Separately...
N: ...separately, right. We get um, the infirmary nurse. We get um...
R: ...The guy who accuses...
N: ...the guy who accused - well ? Yeah.
R: Ish.
N: And the mother - the Abbess mother and like, and I think we even get a couple other people who like, comment on…
R: ...Oh everybody’s weighing in and talking...
N: ...everybody has a - has...
R: ...about it...
N: ...an opinion. Yeah, and it’s third person so it’s not even - there isn’t even one central person where we get only their thoughts or something like it - everyone is equal - has equal say.
R: Yep.
(52:20)
R: And then, uh, we have five pairs of people. We get their perspective and we also get everybody else who runs into them, able to see their relationship.
N: Yeah.
R: This - oh my goodness. This is like - this is the opposite of the “Hunger Games” in...
N: [laughs]
R: ...terms of the point of view..
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...because the “Hunger Games” it’s all Katniss...
N: ...All Katniss all day...
R: ...and then with this it’s everybody possible. Um.
N: It’s not..
R: ...I...
N: ...it’s not done - I do wanna.
R: Oh it’s not confusing to read.
N: At - at least for us it was not. It - it might be confusing, if you’re someone who has trouble keeping track of too many char[aracters] - I mean really, honestly, if - if you’re someone who has trouble keeping track of multiple characters or multiple... multiple, uh...
R: This is not the series for you.
N: Yeah, uh multiple storylines. If you need things pretty clear cut, and threads that are - they’re - they’re very disparate storylines, they’re very clearly separated, but they do jump back and forth quite a lot. They jump back and forth between who is talking and seeing, and what’s going on, and even part of, like this - this mini section of the world you’re in and who you’re around and if - if that is hard, this is not a good series for you, like, it’s a - it’s...
R: ...but...
N: ...an amazing series. It is incredibly difficult to read if that is hard for you to track.
R: But I would say, that if you read them in publishing order you - then you might have a chance at training your brain to do that.
N: That's fair, he does get more convoluted as the series goes.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, that’s - that - that’s a good point.
R: Yep, this is not the first book published. This is...
N: ...No...
R: ....just the one where it’s like “We know that we will have things to talk about.”
N: This is something like the tenth or fifteenth book published actually. Somewhere around there.
R: Really, that late?
N: Oh yeah. Well, that early. There are so many books in this series.
R: Oh. [laughs]
N: [laughs] I - I - full dis - so, with - with that I only know...
R: ...Hey! This book is as old as me. That’s fun.
N: [laughs] Oh cool. um.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, and I don’t think he’s - he didn’t stop for a good while I think.
R: I don’t think he stopped till he died.
N: Pretty much. Um.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, I - I...
R: …’cause I think a couple titles came out after he died, because they were written and they just weren’t...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...out yet.
N: Yeah, and it - yeah, and I like...
R: ...In case you can’t tell, we both - we real - we read a lot of these...
N: ...It’s sad...
R: ...we really like the series.
N: Uh.
R: Uh...
N: I would even compare - and I’m not saying that if you’ve read this other series that this one is comparable in any way, but I think with convoluted plotlines, if - if you’re somebody who really, really enjoys “Wheel of Time” and its plot lines and character density specifically, and you would like another sci - another fantasy series that is like a different context and different characters and... I mean different - you know if you want some stand alone books that have similar density, this is - this is absolutely a series you should read. And if - and...
R: ...And that does not work the other way around. I love this, I can’t get into “Wheel of Time”...
N: It could…
R: ...I just…
N: ...it could work the other way around, if you like this type of plot density, and also “Game of Thrones” I would...
R: ...Well, ok then...
N: ...read “Wheel of Time”.
R: Yeah, um, yeah.
N: So.
R: Uh.
N: But yeah. That’s - uh - it’s - it’s - it’s a - that’s a good reference point for anybody, it’s a similar plot point density and character density to Wheel of time. And plot convolution and perspective jumping, and it’s very, very, similar. Totally not the same story though. If you dislike “Wheel of Time”...
R: ...I’m not a person to comment on that...
N: ...if you dislike “Wheel of Time” for character, or story, or plot, or context reasons, you still might like this, but.
R: Yeah.
(56:05)
R: Uh, do you have an aspiring writer tip.
N: [laughs] I think we just gave it.
R: Oh.
N: Maybe by...
R: ...That’s - uh...
N: ...accident?
R: I - no, because I don’t think “make your plots more convoluted”...
N: ...Oh that’s not the tip...
R: …”and maybe your readers will really like “Wheel of Time”
N: ...That’s...
R: ...I don’t think that’s a good tip.
N: That’s - that...
R: ...then I don’t know what you mean by the tip...
N: ...that’s not what I meant. Um.
R: What was your tip?
N: Uh, just that - ugh. I don’t know. Just that this is a really good example of a convoluted plot that still makes sense, and multiple plot lines that don’t - eh - we - one of our major traumas that takes up a good portion of this book, we labeled irrelevant. And we wouldn't cut it for anything.
R: Oh no. We’re so glad it’s in the book.
N: Yeah. Like I - I feel like - I...
R: ...It’s amazing...
N: ...feel like that’s just the tip, is that this is a very good example. It’s a very good series and a very good book example of how to write multiple plot lines and convoluted plot lines and - and - and plot lines that don’t even intersect, necessarily, in a way that the reader cares.
R: I know how to turn this from praise into a tip.
N: Ok.
R: Alright, so, here’s my thought. So, part of the key to this working even though it might be convoluted, is because for every one of these plot lines you have a central, usually pair...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...of characters, who are going places and they are the ones being followed.
N: Mmm.
R: Um, so - so we have the - the pair of vermin who visit the Abbey, um, we have different pairs that like, go out from the horde and come back, and like they all get followed and they get tracked and it’s discussed whenever they intersect, and there’s just enough when they haven’t intersected with anybody, that even minor pairs show up, and it means that you get a - a feeling of them like, criss crossing across the land.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, and...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...there’s like a sense of - a sense of space in these books.
N: Oh definitely.
R: And because, like, these people are traveling, they crossed this path here, they crossed that path here... They ended up at the Abbey. They left the Abbey, and even though you’re bouncing around in the story line, because you have kind of anchoring pairs, um, of people, and it wouldn’t have to be pairs, but in...
N: ...No...
R: ...this book it’s…
N: ...It’s…
R: ...almost always pairs...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...but because you have these - these anchoring characters and then, what lets there be so many characters is that everywhere they go, there’s a bunch of people they talk to...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and then those people kind of stay put and our point of view pairs move along.
N: That’s actually a really - that’s a really good point because even the - the one group that we - the two groups that we do actually see moving as groups, we don’t hear from every single - every...
R: ...Nope...
N: ...like, we don’t hear from every single one of the horde. We don't hear from - from every single person in a canoe.
R: [laughs]
N: We - we do...
R: ...No we don’t...
N: ...we kind of stick to our central people...
R: ...And even when we get...
N: ...even if it’s multiple...
R: ...a second...
N: ...if it’s multiple people moving...
R: ….even when someone needs to intersect with the GUOSIM again, you just have like a different GUOSIM chieftain.
N: Yes.
R: And then they meet up with all the GUOSIM anyway, so.
N: Yeah. Yeah, that’s...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...that’s a very good point. It's very - it’s a lot, but it’s incredibly ….
R: ...yeah…
N: ...grounded.
R: If you’re going to have a lot of characters, follow them specifically and don’t try to follow everybody.
N: Oh Jesus, yeah.
R: You don’t need to. It’s not worth it. That’s my tip.
N: Ok, I like that tip.
(59:46)
R: What’s your favorite non traumatic thing about the book?
N: I think mine has changed in the time we have been - spent discussing it. This is why...
R: ...Oh really?
N: ...This is why I don’t write things down ahead of time, because my opinions, I - I reformat my brain, like a computer hard drive, a lot. Uh.
R: Interesting. Not what I do. What have you switched...
N: ...Recompile...
R: ...from what you wrote down?
N: So, I - I actually wanna state what I wrote down, because I still think it’s amazing. I originally wrote down, just how - I really enjoy how the - the characters and the - the speech patterns of the characters specifically are - are there in the text. They're - there in the text in a way that is incredibly phonetic, and even me as a child, I heard these characters as voices in my head, and it was so distinct, and it’s just very - it’s very consistent and it’s very - it’s very - it’s incredibly descriptive, and it’s so much better than “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, such and such said in a posh english accent.” Like, I can’t - I can’t...
R: ...Wait...
N: ...visualize...
R: ...you really read books that did that?
N: ....that. I can’t hear that I - if I see your words written in my vernacular, and then I see like a tag, that's like “Oh by the way, this is accented,” like that - that doesn’t translate to my brain, but reading...
R: ...I guess I’ve...
N: ...the accent...
R: ...read books that do that.
N: Oh, you have. I know you have. I think you’ve even read...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...a couple on this podcast already.
R: Hmm. I was trying to recall one. I remembered one we haven’t read this podcast that we’re not gonna read for this podcast, ‘cause, you don’t - no, it’s fine.
N: Yeah, but this one definitely, it - you - you pick through the accent and you hear it once you kind of get the flow of it. And I think - I think flow of - of different dialects and different accents and different ways of speaking is very, very difficult. And this book just does it…
R: ...And…
N: ... in a way that’s very visual and very literal, um, but it - it’s not necessarily accurate to the way things - it’s not always accurate to the way things would actually have been spelled if this person was writing or speaking in a - in a dialect. It’s incredibly...
R: ...Right...
N: ...phonetic in a way that you read it and the way you’re supposed to hear it. And that's hard.
R: Yeah.
N: That’s really hard to do.
R: And if you’re uh, listening to us, you can tell that we’re American, and if you're reading this you can probably tell - if you’re reading the transcript you can probably tell from the spelling, we’re American. Uh.
N: [laugh]
R: Our understanding is that these dialects, for all the different species in this series are based on the different dialects and accents um, in uh, the U.K.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: Well, kinda.
R: In - i - ish.
N: Not all of them.
R: Not bounded that specifically, but - but a lot of them are pulled from - my understanding is that a lot of them are pulled from different dialects in...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...in England and Scotland, and you know, just...
N: So that was originally my favorite thing. And then I re-read - I re-talked through this book in this episode and I think Dumble’s my favorite. I think that - I think...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...honestly the relationship between um, uh, Dumble and Thrug is my favorite thing. I just...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...it’s great. It’s so - and it - and it’s - it’s relatively rare in - in - in adventure stories like this that you see just an adult caring for a child in a way that that child is - is upheld. That - especially when they're not related to each other. They're not even the same species of animal, and Thrugg is supportive, cares for and also is protective and teaches Dumble and is just - is just a super positive adult, parental figure, for this little baby dormouse, and it - it’s so - and adventure stories - he’s not his mentor. He's not specifically his teacher. He's not an adventurer who’s just trying to make friends, like no. He's very much a - a substitute parent, and it’s just this really strong, healthy relationship, and also Dumble’s hilarious. I just really like that.
R: Yeah. Alright, my favorite thing - ok, super quick, I love Farran The Poisoner. Uh, we haven’t really talked about him at all. He’s a fox. He never talks. He’s great and also terrible because he’s the poisoner and he does what goes with that title. Um, I love the foxes in Redwall, just as a type of character, and he is um, terrible, but well written. Alright, so my actually - my favorite non traumatic thing, because I don't think Farran The Poisoner gets to be a nontraumatic thing.
N: [laughs]
R: My favorite non traumatic thing is the food in this book. Uh, if you have ever seen a Hayao Miyazaki film, the Redwall books are the text equivalent of a Hayao Miyazaki film, like, I was like, “I-” as a child I was like “I need strawberry cordial, uh, I need it. I need strawberry cordial.” After reading these books, and I... found strawberry pop at Kroger and had that, and it was great, and I would pretend I was having strawberry cordial. This - these books make me want to eat this food and just see it, ah. So well described. My favorite specific food mentioned a couple times in this book. It’s mentioned elsewhere in other books, which is why I - I saw it, and was like, “Ah, this one.” The name of this pie, “Deeper’n’ever turnip’n’tater’n’beetroot pie”. It’s great. Uh, there’s comments made about, you know, some mole is gonna - I think it was a mole, was just gonna fall into the pie and then eat their way out.
N: [laughs]
R: Like these things are massive. Like come - like they don't need to say “This thing is was big as a whatever,” they can just have somebody say, “I’m gonna fall into that pie and eat my way out,” like.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: Just really cool, inventive ways of making these feasts and food feel gigantic and awesome. Uh, and that’s mine. That’s it for Salamandastron. Thank you so much for joining us.
Outro: Begins at 1:06:14.
[Musical Interlude]
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
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R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.