The Sheepfarmer's Daughter

Series 4 Episode 1

Book 1 of "The Deed of Paksenarrion" Series by Elizabeth Moon

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

From the Show Notes...

This fortnight we bring you “The Sheepfarmer's Daughter”, book one of "The Deed Of Paksenarrion" trilogy by Elizabeth Moon.

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:03)

R: Hello everyone! Since this is either a highlight, a stand-alone book, or the first episode in a series, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, we do not read books about real people, and we are not reading historical fiction. The second rule is that we are basing our analyses off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, nor the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (1:04-1:26)

Plot Synopsis (1:22-1:37)

N: This week we are reviewing the first book of [the] Paksenarrion trilogy, “The Sheepfarmer’s Daughter”. In this book, Paks runs away to become a soldier, and discovers that the life of a soldier is not what she dreamed it to be, but it is what she wanted.

Factions (1:37-2:08)

N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and welcome to Books That Burn, your fortnightly book review podcast. Alright, for factions, we have Paksenarrion, Duke Phelan and The Company. We have Saben, Effa, Canna, and some other friends of Paksenarrion. We have Stammel, and other various training officers and superiors. We have Stefi, Korryn, and Jens. We have the Honeycat and his company, and then we have various other mercenaries and companies.

Topic 1: Torture and Castration. Begins at (2:09), CW for castration, torture, description of genitals.

N: So, we are talking about Cal Halveric, and it’s - we’re almost talking more - we’re almost talking more about the aftermath of his trauma, than we are his actual trauma, I want to say.

R: Well, no, because we get - we get before it happens. We get lots of threats before it happens, threats...

N: ...I guess, yeah...

R: ...that it’s going to happen, and then it happens and then we have the aftermath.

N: Yeah.

R: All in a single chapter. It’s - it’s very tiny, uh, and that's part of why I wanted to talk about Cal, because it is - it’s very self contained, and it kind of covers for - it kind of covers what is in this society, potentially the worst thing possible to happen to a guy, and these books are [gender-]binary, and so i'm not worrying about there being kinds of guys who don’t have balls and can’t be castrated, we’re currently worried about the kind that can, because that’s what happens to Cal.

N: So, there’s a - there’s some context here, where - I just wanted to point out, there’s a lot that happens to Cal. He’s kidnapped, he’s...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...tortured in general, for information and also just because they could, ‘cause they had the opportunity.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, and then also the castration. We’re specifically focusing on the castration, because that’s really what we get descriptions and background and context for, and that’s the shape of the threats that he gets.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But we...

R: …’Cause...

N: ...are fully aware that his - his experience was more than just that.

R: Oh yeah. And part of the torturing thing, is like psychological torture around, “Oh, we’re gonna do this to you, we’re gonna do this to you, and we’re gonna kill your kids, so you’re not gonna have any heirs because you can’t make anymore,” and he has five kids so them threatening that once he’s castrated he might not be able to have an heir, if he already has five sons...

N: Like they’re literally just saying, “Hey, we’re gonna kill your entire family, good luck.”

R: Yeah. “We’re gonna...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...we’re gonna kill your family and metaphorically salt the earth, so like you can’t - you can’t redo it.” Um, he’s beaten and threatened, and then...

N: ...Something I’m just...

R: ...Yeah?

N: ...kind of thinking about like, because of the way this world is set up, this is not - sorry I paused because Haku is just very loud running and I [laughs] um, I might leave that in. That was very thunderous. I don’t know what she was doing, I assume she’s having fun. Uh, I just want to kind of say, contextually, this book is a fantasy book, it’s not a sci-fi book, so...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...medically, and - ah what’s the word I’m looking for, technologically - technologically...

R: ...hormonally? If...

N: ...If you don’t...

R: ...Oh ok...

N: ...have the ability to have children, just don’t have children in this scenario. So this is a...

R: ...Right this is - this is medieval plus magic...

N: ...set up, um, and - and so like, that’s it. Like if, as a - as someone - as a guy in this set up, if you can't have kids, that’s it. You just can’t have kids and you just don’t have an heir. And this is set up [the] where line of succession is genetic, that is part of this world...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and so you can’t just, “Oh well, I adopted this person,” like that doesn’t count. Um, especially because this is a fantasy setting with magic, and so there are magical means, I believe, that we kind of get a hint of in other books. There are magical means to actually test if someone is your heir, so, you can’t just.

R: Hmm.

N: That’s not part of this book. I believe it shows up later, without spoiling things for Robin. Uh, there's...

R: ...I haven’t read these in a decade, so.

(5:47)

N: There are - there are magical ways to test if someone is your heir, and so it is not good enough to just adopt a child and then raise them as your heir, because if anyone literally ever questions them, they’re gonna fail those tests. And so, it - it’s - it’s...

R: ...Hmmm...

N: ...it’s funny because there’s, you know, there are modern workarounds that we have, like you can adopt a person and have them be your child in all ways other than medically, you can - we have surgeries that can fix it and we have other modern medical things, and every single avenue for that is cut out by these books, very intentionally I would say, like it’s - it is set up in a world where this is important, and it’s important not generically, but that’s all I’m gonna say about that.

R: I mean, minor digression building off of that, like - uh, also like part of the context for him being super worried about uh being castrated and not having an heir, is that one of his brothers was killed at the start of this whole thing, like last fall. So, he - he’s also worried not just about him not having an heir for himself, but him not being an heir...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...for his father, um. So he’s got, like, a lot of worries.

N: Let’s actually - can we segway from that into his father’s reaction?

R: Sure!

N: Ok, cool.

R: That’s actually what I was about to say next. His, uh, the - the language in here is very oblique. They refer to his manhood, refer to him being injured “down there”. They have, like, a lot of indirect references, and then we finally get for certain, exactly what was done to him, kind of, when um, uh, his father refers to uh, how he’ll “Serve the bastard’s balls to him on toast.”

N: Being…

R: ...The bastard in question being the...

N: ...the head person...

R: ...whoever…

N: ...who ordered what happened...

R: ...the Honeycat implicitly.

N: Yeah.

R: The Honeycat - yeah the head of the - of, the person who gave the orders that led to this happening to Cal. Um, they - but the language is very oblique, and it is - it’s not - it’s not graphic, like if you didn’t know that this is a thing, it would be like, “Hmm. Well, they’re threatening to kill his family, and something got cut off, maybe?” Like it’s...

N: ...Yeah. I - I will say when I was a kid, reading these books for the first time I - in full disclosure, I read these books - I was [a] very early reader? And I read these books, not quite as they came out, but very close. I was probably three or four reading this book, and that is not an exaggeration at all. I did not know what they were talking about, and I think I figured it out somewhere in middle school? Just - but - but by that point I had read these books, I don’t know maybe four or five times more than that? Four or five that I can directly remember, and like the language is obscure enough - and we’ll probably talk about this in our wrap up a little bit too, but that - the language that is surrounding it is obscure enough where if you don’t have context for it, you’re not gonna jump to that. It’s not traumatizing to read, even a little bit. But, if you...

R: ...No...

N: ...if you are old...

R: ...I...

N: ...enough to...

R: ...mean...

N: ...figure out what it’s talking about, then it’s very clear and very, very - not explicit, but very um, heavily…

(9:04)

R: ...It’s...

N: ...there we go...

R: ...heavily implicit...

N: ...heavily implicit and it’s very consistent. Like, once you know what it's talking about, there’s no obscurity...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...at all. It's just very clear, but I - you know it was good, because it was a - it was a - it’s a passage where potentially, especially if you have balls, it might be traumatizing.

R: Mmhmm.

N: It could easily have been traumatizing to read, but I don’t think that this passage would be.

R: Nah, it’s - it - it would be probably like, again...

N: ...Right...

R: ...neither of us have those, so it’s probably like super cringy to read, if it’s like...

N: ...Yeah...

R: “...Oh, that could happen to me.”

N: Still, language - the language around it kind of protects the reader, with - without...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...obscuring what is happening. Like once you know, you - it makes total sense and there’s nothing...

R: ...You know…

N: ...there’s nothing obscure about it anymore. But, you have to kind - it kind of one of those like, it’s not a catch-22, but if it were a problem it would be, where it’s almost like you have to know for it to matter, but if you don’t know then the scene is still a torture scene, and it’s fine, but it’s not very traumatizing, it - it’s…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...It’s just very well done I think.

R: It is…

N: ...That’s true…

R: ...psychological torture, and if you’re counting the torture as being the castration, then ok it is a torture scene, but I - I - so read the chapter and I - and I thought, “Oh yeah, he totally got tortured in that,” and then I skimmed over the chapter once I knew that we were gonna read this segment, and I was like, “Oh, nevermind, uh, no? They actually didn’t.” Uh, there was psychological torture, there was some like inappropriate...

N: ...Oh...

R: ...hand placement. Like it doesn’t say...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...specifically.

N: Yeah, there’s a lot of just implied that this is happening to him, without anything - again like without anything traumatic to read.

R: Like, I can’t swear that he actually got physically tortured, but psychologically, as we said up front...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...he’s getting all these threats about his family, like, and they live very far away, on the other side of mountains, so for his family to be threatened...

N: ...There’s a...

R: ...Like that...

N: ...a duality there

R: …and him to believe it, like in implies - yeah, it implies both, “Wait - that far away...

N: ...And also you can’t...

R: ...isn’t safe enough”...

N: ...get there to stop it. It’s - it’s both.

R: Right.

N: “I thought - I thought they were safe...

R: ...They’re already over there...

N: ...and I can’t do anything about it,” and it’s - it’s - just, yeah...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...I think it’s just a very - it’s a very well written scene.

R: It could almost - like it would be an extremely short story, but this chapter alone would be a complete, well done, short story.

N: Huh, yeah.

R: It’s - it’s totally self-contained, you have a enough to say what’s going on and like, this - like it doesn’t - it doesn’t need to, like it’s in - it’s in a very good book, but this chapter, I think, could stand alone by itself as like, this little scene of this thing happening. ‘Cause like, even his rescue, is all in this one chapter, and the reaction and like, the reassurance of you - from his dad of like, “Your - your worth to me is not that you can make more kids, that’s not your worth to me. They took the only - they took from you the thing we can totally do without, it’ll be totally fine,” like, “I do not think any less of you.” And given like the - the implied cultural context by, like, this being like, vaguely middle ages Europe, I think it’s very, very important that that gets...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...explicitly said.

N: And as I - and like I - like I said like, not just vaguely medieval Europe, but medieval, magical Europe, where they can magically verify that you have…

(12:41)

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ... a lineage, and for the fact that his father to say to his current, I think he has one more sibling who’s still alive, but like his eldest, his heir to say hey, “The only thing that doesn't matter to me about you as a person is that you can still be my heir and have heirs of your own,” like, “Literally everything about you as a human being is more important to me than that.” That’s…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...that is a...

R: ...very strong message.

N: An extremely strong message. And like it’s - it is a very interesting, I think, juxtaposition to - like - like, this isn’t - and this isn’t something, so like, there’s a lot cultural context that is written in and part of the series, but also like, this - even with all of that cultural context and weight to this thing, this is not a book where people go around saying - like there’s - it - it’s just - I’m trying to think of how to word this. It’s in the text. It’s very clearly structured. It’s very well put together. It makes a lot of sense. It’s very consistent. It’s culturally consistent across multiple different places and events and things like that, and even I would go as far to say, societies, eventually when we get to the other books. But at the same time, this is not a book where people walk around saying, “I am the heir, so here are my powers,” like, it’s very just built into the world in a very smooth way. It’s not the focal point of everything.

R: And again, I can’t speak to the later books yet, because I think I read them once, like...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...ten years ago. I am not the one who rereads...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...this series.

N: I am...

R: ...But we’ll get there…

N: ...I read this series a lot.

Topic 2: Paksenarrion - Survivor's Guilt. Begins at (14:25), CW for loss, helplessness, death, guilt, abandonment, survivor's guilt, discussion of sex.

R: Alright, here we go. We have, uh, our second topic for the episode, our first topic for our main character, Paksenarrion. This is the discussion of her trip to alert Duke Phelan of the garrison’s capture. And she is the sole survivor of that trip where she started out with two other people.

N: So, this is kind of, um, there’s a lot that we could talk about with regards to this thing, but again, kind of - kind of like our first topic, we’re focusing in on one aspect of it. So, a lot of this - this trip that they’re - they're going on, they spend - call it a trip, it’s really a fleeing from the enemy, and they're - they’re trying to bring information. So, it’s - it’s not that - it’s not a trip. But...

R: It’s not a jaunt.

N: It’s not a jaunt, right. Um, but - but a lot of it they spend very tired, very hungry, very cold, being hunted literally by the people that they are - are trying to - to bring warning about, they’re being hunted potentially by an army. But all of that, the three of them are together. They’re - they’re working through and taking care of injuries and they’re, you know, keeping each other alive. But they’re in it together. The thing that we wanted to focus on was right at the end, right as they’re almost to the keep, right as they almost made it, they get - they actually get attacked by, I think bandits, and they get separated and Canin - uh, Canna and Saben don’t make it, but Paks does. And there’s almost - it’s almost - from a trauma standpoint, it’s almost worst that way, because they were so close, and they were together the entire way, and they almost did it, and then all of a sudden, it’s just Paks, and she’s the only one who actually makes it, and so she made it and they deliver the message, and they, you know, they rescue the troops and they save the day, later in the book, but in the moment, she made it all the way with her two best friends, and then she lost them. Right...

R: ...and - and also...

N: ...right as they were almost there.

R: And also, uh, they both were alive when they were found too.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Um, uh, Saben was, um, comatose because of a wound to the head, and Canna was too injured to live, but was able to talk to the people who were rescuing them, and I think it sounds like she might have been, like, with um, the surgeons or medics or whatever, for a bit before she died.

N: Yeah.

R: Like she was able to will her um, her medallion of Gird to Paks...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...um, before dying, so it’s not like...

N: ...It’s not like they just died...

R: ...they just...

N: ...in captivity and then Paks never saw them again. It’s like, no they - they were rescued, and then straight up...

R: ...And it wasn’t enough...

N: ...did not make it and she also didn’t get to say goodbye still.

R: Yeah.

N: There’s just a lot...

R: ...And...

N: ...that she kinda goes through with that.

R: And I think she might have also, I don’t remember whether this was explicit in the text or not, but because she rode with the - the rescuing troops to go free the garrison, basically because...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...she rode with them, she then wasn’t with the people who found Saben and Canna and I don’t....

N: ...Yeah, that was explicit...

R: ...know if they talk about - that was explicitly said? Ok.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah, so because she went to go rescue and like, do more things to complete the mission - so she alerted them and now she went to go help complete this rescue, because of that she doesn't get to say goodbye and can’t - and she could have said goodbye to Canna.

N: And also, with that, the surgeons and the duke gave her an option to stay behind and heal, and she said, “No, I want to be part of the next step.” So if it comes to like, well you know, there’s - there’s this, definitely this implication that “Well, if I had just said no - or if I had just said yes, if I had taken the rest that was being offered, then I would have seen - I would have seen them again…

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...at least a little bit…” And...

R: ...so she...

N: ...it’s just a lot...

R: So she’s torn between finishing the mission that they - she thought that they had already died to make happen, and by trying to complete what she thought they had already died for, she missed them actually dying.

N: And then, we also have on top of this whole survivor's guilt that she has, um, she also feels uh, she - it - it’s almost - it’s almost written as though she doesn't feel guilty, but she thinks that she should.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, feel guilty because - Saben had offered to have sex with her or asked her about it, I think - I think it was just once...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and she turned him down, and that impacted their friendship in zero ways, which was great. That is the correct way that should happen, um, but also like, it was something that she knew he wanted and so then when she died, she basically…

(19:53)

R: ...He died, but yeah...

N: ...er, sorry when he died, she kind of, she looked at it and said, “Well, I couldn't even, you know - he’s gone and I couldn’t even give him this thing that he wanted and I - the way it’s handled in the book, um, their - their Sergeant Stammel - I’m sorry, yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: I’m sorry, yeah, Sergeant, um, he - she’s talking to him about this and he basically looks at her and says, “That’s not - that’s not something that you - you should even be considering because Saben didn’t feel - think any less of you for it. He didn’t regret anything. He wasn't upset. He wasn't angry with you. Like, you guys were just friends, and the fact that you didn’t have this other relationship on top of that is fine. And also, you should not have bedded him out of guilt. That’s not how that works, and that’s not healthy, and that’s not something that you should have been doing anyway,” and...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...that is a very very very good and correct and accurate way that that should be handled. And I think it’s also important to note, this is not a female Sergeant. This is a male Sergeant written in a book where there’s - I don’t think that it’s even men and women and they - they actually - they actually talk...

R: ...They say that...

N: ...about ratios...

R: ...it’s about - it’s about one quarter women.

N: One quarter to one third. I think her company at one point is - or no her, uh, cohort...

R: ...The number is...

N: ...is one third...

R: ...the number is - well the company as a whole is one quarter.

N: Yeah.

R: That is explicitly stated after they get the northern troops and so she’s thinking a lot about the numbers.

N: Yeah. Um - and - but - but as far as like named characters go, we don’t have zero women. Like this - this book passes the Bechdel test with flying colors everywhere, even within - even with there being an explicit male to female ratio that’s been - that’s being discussed. And, with all of that, this is a female - a female sergeant telling her the female - oh I’m sorry, this is a male sergeant telling her, the female recruit, “No, you didn’t owe him this, and also, if you had done this out of a - a feeling of obligation, it would have cheapened it anyway. And Saben doesn’t resent you, and it’s ok,” and also, “Hey by the way, you’re going through PTSD and survivor’s guilt, and I know that as your superior officer and you need to recognize that and it’s ok.” And then - and then there’s a couple of like explicit, like contextual things that he uses as examples for why she should absolutely know that Saben wasn’t upset about it, but um, also just like it’s - it’s very explicit and - and supported in the text and it’s - it’s just very well written.

R: Yeah, and also, uh, like - I mean - neither - I don’t think survivor’s guilt is used explicitly as a term, PTSD definitely is not, because that’s a very modern term, but like...

N: ...It’s way more just...

R: ...Yeah...

N: …descriptive than that, but he - I think Stammel does say like, “You feel guilty because you’re the only one, like they both...

R: ...Right, right...

N: ...died.”

(23:04)

N: Like he - he explicitly describes it, I’m just...

R: ...Oh sure, no, that’s definitely...

N: ...shortening...

R: ...what they’re talking about...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...Yeah. And she also has a - has a lot of like, if she hadn't run then maybe then they would’ve all made it and it’s like, “No, you wouldn't have,” and...

N: ...and - and her superior officer is very clear on that too, like, “Hey, you don’t know that and also, this way someone got the message to the Duke, which was the goal. You did your job, quit beating yourself up for doing your job.” And it - and it wasn’t...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and it’s not even like, “Let it go, it doesn’t matter.” It’s, “Hey, allow yourself to heal. You did it. You're the only one who survived. It’s ok, like, no one is upset at you or anything, least of all you friends.” And - and then again, “Here’s why, here’s some explicit examples of them in their final moments being ok, with you and with what you did,” and yeah, it’s - it’s very, yeah, it’s very good. It’s very - it’s very - I think it’s a very good way of writing it so that her trauma is kind of both validated but also pushed on the road to healing, and also at the same time, um, there’s a rejection of a lot of toxic things that can come with that. And it - and it’s explicit rejection, it’s not just that they don’t talk about it, or she doesn't deal with it, like, no. She looks it directly in the face and has somebody who she respects look at her and say, “Hey, that is not - that’s not something that you need to handle, and it - it gives her kind of a - a...

R: ...You don’t need to take that on...

N: ...yeah, but it gives her a literal - a literal reason to reject it because the person telling it to her is her superior officer. It’s somebody she respects, and also it is another guy, which in context for this does matter.

R: Yeah, because it’s not like a woman telling her, “Oh you don’t need to bother whether some man wanted to sleep with you...

N: ...Exactly, exactly.

R: It’s a guy saying like, “Hey, it didn’t hurt your friendship…”

N: “...and if it had…”

R: “...it didn’t impact it…”

N: “...and if it had…”

R: “...if it…”

N: “...that would have been awful on him, so you can relax anyway.” Yeah.

R: Right.

N: Yeah, which is very, very good.

R: And also, it’s not like this book pretends that everybody’s totally fine, and...

N: ...Oh, no...

R: ...been like, totally get together with no problems. Our next topic is gonna have that.

N: [laughs] yeah.

R: Uh, but it - but it does very clearly have like characters who are good about this and characters who are not.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, there’s some like, throwaway characters who are from a different company and basically ask like a whole string of like, “Well, what do you mean women can fight? Why are there so many of you? Lke, what’s going on?” like, we have that but it doesn't inundate - I’m glad the book doesn't inundate with that kind of like stressful stuff, with like, yeah. I appreciate how the book acknowledges but is not permeated by, like...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...ambient misogyny. That’s nice.

[Musical Interlude]

Topic 3: Paksenarrion - Sexual Assault/Physical Assault. Begins at (26:08), CW for physical assault, attempted sexual assault, descriptions of physical and sexual injuries, drugging. TW for discussion of rape and sexual assault, physical injuries.

R: Alright, we have Paksenarrion’s assault and attempted rape.

N: Yeah.

R: Uh.

N: So, I just want to real quick before we get into this, I am reiterizing just in case people - reiterating. I’m reiterating, just in case people don’t read our show notes all the time. This - even before we start talking, I’m gonna go ahead and say, hey, this has explicit talk about physical assault, attempted sexual assault, descriptions of physical and sexual - uh, injuries and also uh, drugging and um…

R: ...Yeah...

N: …[sighs] I’m trying to think if there’s anything more that I know we’re gonna cover.

R: Like, we hope you join us for this segment, but...

N: ...we also understand...

R: ...if not, take care of ourselves and catch us for the wrap up.

N: Yeah.

R: Take care your - take care of yourselves and catch us for the wrap up.

N: Take care of ourselves too. [laughs]

R: Yeah [laughs].

N: Um but yeah so, just in case you didn’t look at the show notes, this is not gonna be a fun one to listen to if you have any reason to avoid or take - not be a part of any of those discussions, and if there’s any more warnings - content warnings that we need, I will put them also in the show notes, but those are the ones I’ll already, ahead of our actual discussion, I know we’re gonna cover.

R: Yeah.

N: Ok. Do we want to talk about the way the text is presented at different levels first? Or do we literally just want to go down our...?

R: Um, I - I first want to talk about what is explicitly in the text, then talk about what is heavily, heavily implied and we’re like 99% sure, and then if we have anything where we’re pretty sure, but it isn't in there, kind of handle it that way.

N: Ok, uh, alright. You want to start with...

R: ...So...

N: ...explicit, and I’ll go to implicit?

R: Sure, so, what is explicitly in the text is that uh, Paks wa[its] - is in a cell, and also that the switch to the scene is extremely abrupt. It jumps over the event and is just the aftermath. Um, so she - she doesn't quite wake up in a cell, we join her awake in a cell, and she is hurt, she doesn’t quite know how hurt she is, and Stammel comes to see her and he’s talking at first like she did something, and she’s like, “Wait no, I’m the one who was attacked,” and uh, basically she - um, what we have from the text is uh, someone attempted to rape her, Korryn, and Stefi hurt her. Stefi definitely hurt her. He tried to get - make her sleep with him, and she refused him, and then he hurt her, and someone was placed on look out, and Korryn was also there, and it’s not really clear - no one directly witnessed, and can remember, and was willing to say, exactly what Korryn did, but the end result is that Paks was uh, almost raped, was assaulted so badly that they had to do an examination in order to figure out whether or not she[‘d] technically been raped because she was so injured.

N: And - and also, quick note here, the reason that she’s not sure how injured she is, is because everything hurts.

R: Right, right, yeah.

N: Like there - is literally a case of over-stimulus by pain where she - it - it all hurts and she can kind of pinpoint things but she’s also not certain if her ribs are broken, it’s just that breathing is difficult, it’s kind of one of those.

(29:58)

R: Yeah. so she is hurt all over, and there is concern over whether she is hurt in the very specific way that is rape but no matter what, there was an attempted sexual assault, there was completed physical assault, and I would say - yeah like the hair-line between was she phsyically - was she sexually assaulted but not technically raped? Like I’m not super interested in that distinction, and luckily the book isn’t either.

N: Yeah, that’s - Yeah, well that’s the thing is like that’s not just a, “We don’t wanna - we don’t care thing,” like the book also does not care...

R: ...It’s not saying...

N: ...like it’s...

R: ...like, “Oh it’s...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...it’s not better for her attackers that she wasn’t actually raped, it’s just better for her that she wasn’t actually - that she wasn’t technically raped.

N: Yes...

R: Alright, did you want to talk about the implicit stuff?

N: Yeah, so there's some - so that’s what we kind of get that’s written down, and I - I do want to quick note before I move on to implicit, explicitly in the text its not that those things are what we know happened, it’s - we kind of watch other people piece together the scene, and so the things that Robin just said are things that the uh, the officers and the other people who are in charge of - of her well being and of investigating this, those are things that they think and notice, and are told, and understand, and so it’s 100% not the whole story, but also like, it’s not written to be believed as the whole story. You very much watch it as an investigation that is happening and that’s - I think that’s very - it’s an important distinction, um. So, implicit in the text is that Stefi was probably not actually the rapist here, or attempted rapist.

(31:53)

R: He did...

N: ...Explicitly in the text...

R: ...yeah...

N: ...we do have that he grabs Paks by the arm and kind of pushes her down on a bed and is trying to talk to her - talk her into sleeping with him. She says no, and then everything else that we hear about the scene is from Korryn. And we have ex - we have implicit, and a little bit of physical injury explicit, reasons to think that Korryn is the one who beat her. Korryn is the one who hit her. Korryn is the one who broke ribs. Korryn is also the one who told - not - not even - not even just told Stefi what to say, but Korryn is the one who gave Stefi’s initial account for him. Literally just him talking and telling Stefi to nod. And - and we also have explicit text confirmation that Stefi was drugged. So, implicit in the text with all of those things that are - that are actually in there - that are actually explicitly written in there, we have implicit in the text that Stefi was drugged, went and - went and tried to get Paks to sleep with him, and she said no, and then Korryn said, “No, actually we’re gonna hurt you,” and beat her, potentially attempted to rape her, um, and then lied...

R: ...It’s not potent - ...

N: ...about all of it...

R: ...it’s not potential that someone tried, it’s just potential as to whether it was Stefi or Korryn.

N: Right, exactly. And also, explicitly in the text we do get that by the time um, somebody showed up and officers were on the scene, and - and kind of - deescalating is the wrong word. I don’t have a better word.

R: Yeah, it’s - it - it definitely isn't deescalation because they thought - at the time they thought that she was - yeah, they broke it up.

N: There we go. Broke up the scene. By the time we have officers on there - who broke up the scene, um, Stefi cannot sit up straight or really talk, but - and - and that’s actually the reason that Paks is thrown in the cell in the first place, because he couldn’t give testimony for himself, and so when Korryn says, “Well yeah, she did this to him,” it’s taken at face value just because he can’t - he literally can’t defend himself or talk for himself, or anything. And they assume at the time it’s because Paks beat him so badly, that he can’t talk, but then he essentially doesn’t have a scratch on him when actually they look later. And so, we - we get - we kind of get all of this where Stefi was drugged, Korryn either set it up and drugged Stefi [cat meow] or took advantage of the scene to - stop girls, I need not cat yeowling [meow] in the background. Oh fuzzum. Um, and then, so Korryn either engineered the scene or took advantage of the scene to hurt Paks on purpose.

R: Yeah.

N: And there’s some pretty heavy implication - and the thing is that we don’t know who - well we don't at the time - or we don’t know in this book. We do actually eventually find out, which.

R: Don’t tell me.

N: I won’t…

R: ...I don’t know…

N: ...I won’t tell you who but, um, this - this is not a mystery forever. Um, like we - like we - we do get the - the set up here that - that Korryn took full advantage of - of this and just hurt her.

R: Yeah. Uh, so, one of the things is the - so - so the - because Stefi couldn’t, we said, Stefi couldn't like walk, he was like falling over, because he was drugged, um, they thought Paks hurt him, and Stammel asks like, “Hey, if it had been this morning and you said Paks has this story and Korryn has this story, who would we listen to?” and whoever he was talking to was like, “Well Paks, obviously,” and he - and they were like, “Oh but it’s this thing,” and Stammel is like, “Nuh uh uh. We would believe Paks.”

(35:56)

N: Like we know...

R: … “We should let the law…”

N: ...that Paks is more trustworthy.”

R: Yeah.

N: “We have had problems with Korryn since he joined,” like...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: Stefli is…

R: ...Let’s look harder…

N: ...Stefi isn't the one even giving really a testimony here. Stefi doesn't remember anything, like.”

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: And so Stammel has to like, fight the hierarchy and like, pull strings and not quite pull rank, but do like everything - ‘cause he can’t pull rank, ‘cause he’s trying to get his higher-ups to do stuff.

N: [laughs] Yeah.

R: Um, but like everything short of that to get this to happen…

N: ...and - and by this we mean...

R: ...so like...

N: ...investigation more beyond “Paks beat up a corporal,” to be clear.

R: Yeah, ‘cause the investigation was going to be “How much are we going to punish Paks for doing this,” and he turned the investigation into; what happened, who did what, uh, there were witnesses totally - and it was interesting, the use of the term witness, because it was witness, not to the event, but witness to the injuries.

N: Oh yeah!

R: And so, looking at the injuries and at the physical evidence, the witness looked at it and then they were witnesses to everyone’s statements about what happened, and then they put that together, and then they had a judgment, and then based on the judgment, from the witnesses, then uh, we get um, Korryn, Stefi, and Jens - Jens was the one watching the door to say if - if any superiors were coming.

N: Korryn - Korryn - Jens is Korryn’s henchman essentially, and - and that’s not...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...just in this scene, just in general. He’s the - the minion to Jens’s uh, instigator, and um, Jens - Jen - Jens is not a good henchman in this scene, because when they said, “Hey, what did he tell you?” he literally says “Oh...

R: “...well he told me to watch the door.”

N: ...well Korryn told me to go look out for the officers and tell - tell him if they were coming,” like, ok dude. Well.

R: Like Jens is not...

N: ...Jens is not a good accomplice, um.

R: Like he’s almost...

N: ...which is good...

R: ...a mook...

N: ...for Paks

R: ...he’s - he’s almost a mook, he’s so bad at being a henchman.

N: [laughs]

R: Um.

N: Yeah.

R: And then...

N: ...Sorry...

R: ...once...

N: ...his - his pure just like, confusion at, “Well why would you even ask me, of course it was,” just is very funny to me.

R: So, trying to keep this as a discussion, and not just a recap...

N: ...Well...

R: ...there’s so much to recap, we could talk about it...

N: ...It’s...

R: ...forever...

N: ...It’s hard because we’re not - we’re honestly, right now, we’re not just recapping. Because there’s - there’s so much to the way that this whole scene is handled where there’s so much that’s implied...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and there’s so much that you kind of...

R: ...Even us - even us saying what happened, is drawing conclusions about the text because so much of this is implicit.

N: Yeah.

R: But what I was going to say is going to um, the trial and the punishment, I found the punishment to be very interesting.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Because um, the punishment for Jens is that he - they’re all lashed um, Stefi the least, and then Korryn got 40 lashes. No, Stefi was sent elsewhere for - he was sent elsewhere, Jens got lashed, Korryn got 40 lashes, and then Jens’s head was shaved, and Korryn was shaved…

(39:14)

N: ...tunisi turin...

R: ...all of his hair. Yeah, tunisi turin, he was completely shaven, shaven like a newborn lamb or something that’s, yeah, how it - how it is in the books. Yeah, and so you have this interesting interplay with um, with Paks being kind of traumatized again by watching the punishment and trying to figure out how to deal with that. Like, the text doesn’t spend a ton of time on it but it - it does acknowledge that like, it’s ok for her to feel badly and not be ok with watching this punishment happen, um, she like - she, you know - she can look it away - look away. There would be something wrong with her if she did like it.

N: Yeah, they - they very much - they have - they very much have an attitude of, the punishment is the deterrent for other people to do the same thing, and - and also building off of that, there’s - there - there’s some more than just - there’s validation for her being uncomfortable or not ok, but more than just the - the other - the other punishment, there is also explicit in the text, um, the guards and other - other people in charge - but the guards holding her up, holding her there, her personal people - people keeping her from running away in theory, uh, when they’re going over - the witnesses are going over descriptions of injuries, that is rough for Paks. They - it says it - it says in the book about - it talks in the book about her just as they’re saying her injuries, as they're listing them off, she feels them like they’re being - like it’s happening to her again. And the guards - her guards actually walk her through it and - and essentially say like, “Hey, that - this is affecting you, don’t listen to this. You aren’t the one who needs to hear this. You just need to be present, because this is - it’s a defense of you, but also like - like you’re kind of on trial a little bit ‘cause we’re seeing what happened, but also like, hey that hurt you so look out the window, don’t listen, count,” I think one of the guards - like actually says like, “Instead of listening to that, try counting to 100 or something like that, you know just block it out because we can tell that this is traumatic for you, just almost like reliving it,” and that’s - that’s very - it’s - it’s given - it’s given a lot of - a lof weight and a lot of care, and we’ll talk about that later. And it’s - it’s care - it’s care not just for the readers, it’s care for that - the person who survived the trauma in the book, which, I honestly I can’t think of a single book that we’ve read so far, or talked about reading, or have on our list - I - I think Elizabeth Moon as an author does this in a couple of the books that I have kind of setup as like options for us to read but, I can’t think of another author who so explicitly taught - has the character given that level of onscreen care about their trauma, without it just being backstory somehow. Generally speaking like, Elizabeth Moon does this very - very good, interesting thing where it’s all in the book, but it’s - it’s in the book as aftermath so the reader is not experiencing it, but the character is reliving it and then the character is seen to be given care to get through it. And it - it’s just a lot of books, even with things like trauma and physical - physical injuries and things like that don’t go to that level, so, I just think that’s important to note.

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (43:00).

R: Alright, for our wrap up...

R: ...for our first item, which was uh, Cal Halveric, minor character spotlight. What do you think the gratuity rating is?

N: It’s either mild or moderate.

R: I was gonna say it alternates...

N: ...yeah...

R: ...between mild and offscreen...

N: ...which…

R: ...which is great...

N: ...for the actual trauma that we talked about is pretty difficult to do. Yeah.

R: Uh, it’s very well done. Delicately handled, very precise language. Um, yeah.

N: Delicately handled sounds like a joke, and I know it’s not.

R: That’s all I’ll say about that. [laughs] Um...

(43:08)

R: Alright, so for Paks’s...

N: ...Let’s just say...

R: ...trip...

N: ...survivor’s guilt...

R: ...survivor's guilt. Alright, so Paks, survivor’s guilt, uh I... [sighs]. I think it’s moderate. There’s like a - a discussion but it’s not the kind of thing...

N: ...Here’s the only - the only reason that I’m wondering if it’s legitimately moderate or if it’s severe, Paks...

R: ...It might be triggering for someone...

N: ...Uh...

R: ...who has...

N: ...Eh...

R: ...a similar...

N: ...That...

R: ...thing?

N: But more than that, the fact that she is dealing with it for so long, because it’s - I think it’s - I think it might be one of those again where the actual event is over, really super quick, but she’s dealing with it for like the rest of the book. Actually for that matter, I’m gonna go ahead and say, I know that you don’t know this yet, but she’s dealing with this into the next book a little bit. I think.

R: Yeah, yeah. So you think...

N: ...I think...

R: ...severe...

N: ...severe, just because of the duration and because of how much it’s...

R: ...even if we just consider how much it’s in this book, you think it’s still severe?

N: It goes for the rest of the book.

R: Because I agree.

N: Even if you just consider it being in this book.

R: That’s true.

N: It is...

R: ...even at like the very, very...

N: ...Yes, like...

R: ...end of the book she’s like...

N: ...I - I think - I think like...

R: ...thinking about it again...

N: ...as an - as an actual trauma, like the way it’s depicted it’s not severe, but I think it - it is one of those that just goes on, and on, and on, and on, and on.

R: So let’s say, moderate but...

N: ...we don’t have a...

R: ...sustained...

N: ...category for sustained. Ok, we let’s just - alright, we can go ahead and just say moderate. Moderate but also like...

R: ...Moderate, but a lot of it, yeah...

N: ...moderate but also like, hey...

R: … the actual depiction is moderate...

N: ...if you struggle with survivor’s guilt...

R: ...yeah...

N: ...this might be cathartic and it might be awful, so heads up. Yeah, that’ll totally depend...

R: ...we - we don’t know...

N: ...on your personal experience, so...

R: ...We’re sorry, we can’t...

N: ...Yeah,

R: ...we can’t…

N: ...and we’re not gonna...

R: ...predict that for you...

N: ...try.

(45:16)

R: Um, so then we have uh, the assault on Paks.

N: This is severe.

R: Um.

N: Full stop.

R: This is severe. Uh, it - it is - it’s a very interesting mix of off screen...

N: ...Ok, that’s fair...

R: ...and severe.

N: Um, but - but yeah. But even just - even just [the] descriptive language used kicks it up to severe. Um, this is gonna be - this is gonna be a fun one to review.

R: It’s offscreen. It’s offscreen, it is severe, and it is specifically not torture porn, which is a delicate balance which was handled very well.

(45:53)

R: We have whether Cal’s trauma is, uh, it’s irrelevant. It’s very interesting but it is irrelevant.

N: I’m gonna say that it’s not irrelevant. I think it’s interchangeable because...

R: ...You think it’s interchangeable?

N: ...the Halveric’s...

R: ...ok...

N: ...well? I was gonna - I was gonna say the Halveric’s needed...

R: ...We didn’t need...

N: ...something...

R: ...this scene...

N: ...to be that committed because the Duke was...

R: …[sighs] they already lost - they already had something happen to their other son as we do talk about in this segment, like, they were already together. This intensified an already intense bond and there are hints in the text of there being some other even more unspoken reason for them to be on the side of...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...Duke Phelan...

N: ...Alright, alright, irrelevant. Sorry Cal. [laughs] Ah - although, ok.

R: Yeah.

N: So - so I do wanna...

R: ...Yeah, like there...

N: ...I do want to quickly note...

R: ...I - I mean I...

N: ...because of...

R: ...I did...

N: ...the things that we talked about, um, plot wise...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...it’s irrelevant - it is irrelevant to the plot...

R: ...It is irrelevant to the plot...

N: ...but it’s, yes.

R: I think it makes it a better book.

N: I think bookwise, it was - it was very, very good.

R: Yep.

N: Yeah, plot wise - plot wise it was irrelevant.

R: It would make - and I did - I did say in our short segment just in case anyone, you know, skipped the segment but is here for the wrap up, this particular chapter would make an amazing short story. It wouldn’t even need to be lengthened. It could just be like, a very short story in the middle like, on the internet or in some other book, like, it’s a stand alone, contained, thing, that has...

N: …[laughs] If Elizabeth Moon...

R: ...all the info [it] needs...

N: If Elizabeth Moon did fanfiction of her own work...

R: ...This would - yes. Yeah, if she did, if she did fanfiction of her own work, this could be...

N: ...It’s...

R: ...fanfiction of her own...

N: ...Yeah, and...

R: ...work...

N: ...it’s just very good...

R: ...as a stand alone chapter. Um, but that also contributes to its ability to be, plotwise, irrelevant.

(47:48)

R: Alright...

N: ...Survivor’s guilt...

R: ...now we have...

N: ...this is...

R: ...uh.

N: This is...

R: ...Paks and survivor’s guilt.

N: I - I - I’m going to argue that this is integral.

R: I was gonna argue that it’s interchangeable. So, I was gonna argue that it is interchangeable because we already had other events that would have caused and have already caused similar survivor's guilt. She’s - she’s literally in an army, like.

N: Ah….

R: There’s - I - I...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...I see both...

N: ...here’s...

R: ...both...

N: ...can I make an argument for it being..?

R: I was going to say I see it as inevitable that she’s going to have survivor’s guilt.

N: But it - it’s not the survivor’s guilt that is the thing that I’m saying is...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...integral...

R: ...sure, alright.

N: So…

R: ...You - you can’t pull from what’s in books two and three, you gotta stick to this one.

N: I - I’m sticking to this one. So - although - ok, to be fair, um, books two and three would not have happened without this particular thing happening to her.

R: That’s true. They would have...

N: ...Ok, so trying - I’m trying to say this without spoilers.

R: Yeah.

N: Tell me if you think this is a spoiler. For her to leave the company, she can’t have friends still in it like that.

R: Hmm, that’s a spoiler because that’s not in this book.

N: No - yeah it is.

R: No, she’s still in the company at the end of this book. Yeah, she hasn’t left the company.

N: Oh.

R: So...

N: ...well fuck...

R: ...arguing whether...

N: ...alright, alright redoing...

R: ...it’s integral to this plot...

N: ...re - ok...

R: ...sure...

N: ...no we - we can’t take a trilogy and say - we - we can’t take a trilogy and say - ok - here - here’s the thing - ok. Spoiler free, books two and three would not have happened if she still had friends that were her best friends alive in the company. There would be no plot.

R: Alright. So, now...

N: ...There are...

R: ...handle...

N: ...multiple - there are multiple, specific events in books two and three that quite literally tie back to this - specific trauma, and she as a character would not develop and exist the way she does without this happening to her.

R: My counter is that’s going to be the case for any long - for any like, series. Things you did in book one, while they might not have been set in stone, how you did book one will carry through and then they become harder to change.

(50:10)

N: Yes…

R: ...So...

N: ...but it’s not that simple for this one.

R: Ok. So, let’s go with I haven’t read these in ten to fifteen years. I only vaguely remember, so it is not integral to the plot...

N: ...but it is though...

R: ...of this - hold up, hold up.

N: Ah.

R: It - it is not integral to the plot of this book but your argument could be that the point of this series would have to be different if this weren’t in there, because my hard counter to whether it had to be integral is what if she just never really made many friends in the company?

N: Then she would...

R: ...She wouldn’t have to...

N: ...have a lot...

R: ...lose them...

N: ...Yes she did. She did have to lose them.

R: Ok. Alright. Um.

N: That’s - that’s - that’s the thing, is like, she absolutely had to lose them.

R: Ok. Um, trying to get this to like.

N: Ok, alright. In this book...

R: ….It’s interchangeable.

N: No it’s not. Ok, alright.

R: So - so that, ok, let me argue it this way.

N: It’s just not.

R: It’s - it’s, so...

N: ...But I can’t tell you why without spoilers.

R: Ok.

N: It’s so not.

R: So, to me, practically speaking, only having read this book, because I only remember like two things from later, and none of them related to this, um, it is - it is - it is integral that she has survivor’s guilt because she would be magically lucky to escape the plot of this book…

N: ...See the survivor’s guilt…

R: ...without…

N: ...is not the part that I think is integral.

R: I - I understand…

N: ...It’s literally everything else.

R: I - I understand that. Ok, so, Niki, I’m trying to help us talk about this spoiler free, and when the - the title for this topic is survivor’s guilt, and you’re like “Wait, I wanna talk about everything but survivors’ guilt…”

N: ...No, I don't want to talk about everything else. I just want to say like the point of - the point of the trauma was not the guilt, but the point - but the trauma had to happen. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t know how to say that without.

R: Ok, let me - can I attempt without you cutting it off…

N: ...sure…

R: ...partway through? Ok, so, to me, just with this book, the survivor's guilt is in - integral to the plot, exactly who was lost could be interchangeable. The number could have been different, it didn’t have to be youth from this particular event that has her leave the company, um, physically, and be in danger. But, uh, you are arguing that if you didn’t have this the rest of the series wouldn’t happen and wouldn't make sense, and so I’ll go ahead and grant you that this may heavily impact the rest of the series, and thus is integral to the story arc, I’ll go ahead and grant you that, because I don’t remember. Um, but, so that - I would say that she has survivor’s guilt is integral to the plot because you would have a very different war book if she managed to get away without survivor’s guilt, and then that’s strengthened when you argue that everything but the actual survivor's guilt is integral to the overall arc, so we can go ahead and settle on integral, even if we disagree about which part is integral.

(53:14)

N: Yeah.

R: Ok.

N: That’s fine.

R: Alright.

N: Yeah, ‘cause I just - I just don’t know how to make my argument for why I think it’s integral without...

R: ...Yeah, it’s ok. You don’t...

N: ...spoilers...

R: ...know how to make a spoiler free argument, but if - I think one half is integral and you think the other half is integral...

N: ...That’s fine, that’s cool...

R: ...then...

N: ...I just...

R: ...It’s ok...

N: ...I just don’t think it’s interchangeable because of a lot - a lot of reasons, like, Elizabeth Moon is super good at layers to specific scenes, so like you’ll have a scene - it’s just a thing with this author, like you’ll have a scene and then like this piece of that scene is integral to the next chapter, but this other piece of that scene is integral to the next boo, but the other piece of that scene is integral to chapter two of the third book, like there’s just a lot of things like that where there’s a lot of that in this book where it just builds and builds and builds and builds and builds, and it’s a thing that she does in a lot of her series that I’ve read, but especially this one where something that at first glance looks really super minor, if you pull that thing away, the rest of it just falls apart.

R: Yeah.

N: And this - this thing is one of those things.

R: Um, and I read books far more linearly and also piecemeal at the same time and so I - I first default to assuming it’s interchangeable and then testing to see that - I - I first test if it’s interchangeable.

N: Oh yeah, but that’s the thing is like, if you’re only looking at, “Well, other things could cause survivor's guilt,” like, yeah absolutely. But those other things wouldn't have all of the nuances and all of the implications that this particular thing had. And yeah, sure, you could build in like seventeen reasons for those other things to exist, but at that point you’re just writing a different book...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...which is why I think it’s integral.

R: Ok, then. So then I don’t know how...

N: ...You see what I’m saying?

R: to get a short - Yeah. I don’t know how to get a short version of this conversation, but yes. I see what you’re saying...

N: ...Eh, it’s fine...

R: ...and I think we can move on.

N: That’s my job.

R: Yep.

N: Um.

R: Yeah. It’s why it’s your job. Um.

N: Ok.

(55:17)

R: Now, we have uh, the - we have the assault, um.

N: This is also integral.

R: Yeah, this is definitely integral. I - even though it doesn't come back in this book I recognize this from other things. I know the feeling of, we have set up a big bad and they will return.

N: [laughs]

R: Uh.

N: I read T.V. Tropes enough to know...

R: ...As I was saying, ah, Tamora Pierce did this twice in one of her series like.

N: Yeah.

R: And - oof - and someone else who started with a “K” as well. But, um, anyway.

N: Oh no.

R: I don’t know if you cut that or not, but.

N: I don’t know.

R: Yeah, but...

N: ...decide later.

R: I definitely recognize the feeling of we have set up something that’s going to come back to bite her later, um. Someone hates her.

N: I’m sorry, I - I’m trying not to laugh because...

R: ...So I would argue...

N: ...I know what happens, and it’s very - hearing your sentence out of context is highly entertaining to me.

R: Yeah.

N: It’s not wrong, but it’s also very funny. Anyways.

R: Um, so I would argue that it is - it’s integral - it’s integral to this plot. I recognize how if done well it could be integral to the story moving forward. Uh, I trust that it will be. I vaguely remember that it is. Um, the - some of the details might be interchangeable but I think they’re very informative, so I’m going to go ahead and say that thing is integral.

N: Uh, I would also argue like, some of the details might be interchangeable. It could have been talked about differently, but I think for the way the author wanted the reader to experience it, I don’t think the details were really interchangeable.

R: Yeah.

N: But they’re so specific in a way that protects the reader, and we’ll get to that in our next thing but like...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...Yeah you could have been less good about how you did the scene, but also.

R: No, this is - this is definitely...

N: ...so...

R: ...this is definitely integral, um, in a different way than the other thing.

(57:21)

R: Alright moving on to were things treated with care, about Cal Halveric. Yes.

N: Absolutely.

R: So much care.

N: Full care

R: So - uh, so much tender um, taking lots and lots of care with language and exactly what’s going on, uh, so much so that very young Nicole did not know what was going on. Um.

N: Oh yeah, when I - well, to be fair, like I did say in the segment, I was probably three or four reading this book, so me not knowing what was going on in this scene is fair, and if I did know what was going on, that might even be a little bit concerning. With how obscure the language around it is.

R: Yeah, it would have been more worrying if you had known what was going on when you read it, that - yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: Uh, yeah. Uh.

(58:08)

N: Um, ok, survivor's guilt. Uh, I would argue that this was treated with enough care.

R: Yeah, like it’s...

N: ...It’s not just straight up treated with care...

R: ...there’s so much...

N: ...as much as the others.

R: I don’t want to use the term wallowing, I’m going to say [recurring], there’s, uh [recurring] intrusive thoughts with this...

N: ...Mmhmm, mhmm...

R: ...and that kind of makes it be enough care.

N: Yeah.

R: It’s not - it’s not overwhelming. It’s not inundating, but it is repetitive.

N: Yes.

R: In a - in a very purposeful way that does not - it doesn't - it doesn’t drag in the book.

N: Oh no.

R: But it...

N: ...It’s...

R: ...is repetitive because it keeps being on her mind that this thing happened.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um.

N: Yep. Over and over and over and over and over forever.

R: Yeah...

N: ...Not forever…

R: ...I…

N: ...She does - not forever...

R: ...yeah, well...

N: ...not forever...

R: ...forever is, you know the end of...

N: ...forever as far as...

R: ...the book at least.

N: ...this book is concerned.

R: Yeah.

N: Ok.

R: Um.

(58:09)

N: The assault was defin[ately] - this was a weird one because I am torn between enough and just full on yes.

R: I’m gonna go with yes, because we - I - I say it is - it is treated with care, even to the point of you - you have something where someone tells her she - to like - tells her a technique for not having to listen to all of the discussion that’s happening, and - so then the reader gets the text of someone telling her how to not happen to listen to it, rather than the reader having to listen to all of it, like...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...even that is just so well done.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, yeah you have a lot of like cut aways to her reaction.

N: Mmhmm, and then you kind of flash back to like the convo but you know that you missed a lot of it and it’s - like you as a reader never feel like you don’t know what’s going on, but also you are 100% not being um, you’re not having it inflicted on you in any way, shape, or form.

R: Yeah. Can we think this was, [sighs] think it was definitely - it’s - it’s definitely treated with care. Whether or not it feels like just enough care, I think is gonna… depend on what baggage a reader has coming into it, but I...

N: ...That’s fair...

R: ...I think it - I think it has a shot at straight up being...

N: [laughs]

R: ...treated with care. Your mileage may vary...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...but um, yeah. It is at minimum, “enough”.

(1:00:28)

R: Alright, moving on to the point of view. For Cal, uh, the point - it stays on him. Yeah it’s pretty much on him. He - his consciousness is going in and out, so the point of view kind of goes in and out so it does it in this really, really, um, it - it - it does it in this very intelligent way, this very way, that again…

N: ...I’m…

R: ...I really like this chapter.

N: I’m gonna - ow - I’m gonna submit that the aftermath was Cal and his dad. Cal and the Halveric, because the Halveric gets a particular male parcel.

R: Well, it’s him telling - it’s - it’s just him...

N: ...the package...

R: ...telling Cal about it. It’s not us seeing.

N: No, no we do - we do get the scene of - of him and the Duke being...

R: ...Wait, we do?

N: Yeah, and we get the Duke’s reaction to the Halveric’s reaction. Like, we do get other people reacting to this thing happening. We do get that. But as far as the actual trauma itself, we only get Cal, but then the aftermath we get Cal, and Cal talking to his dad, and - and his dad talking to the Duke, and the Duke being circumspect with other people, like we do have other people’s kind of reaction to it. Which is not a bad thing in this case. The way it was handled was beautiful.

R: Nah, I’m - I’m looking at the text. The Duke is in the tent with him while uh, he has the Duke leave the tent while they’re tak[ing] - while the surgeon's taking care of him.

N: That’s not the part I'm talking about. I’m talk - I’m talking about the part before they even go rescue him.

R: Are you sure?

N: Yeah.

R: Then that would mean stuff happened out of order. I - no.

N: No.

R: Eh - every - everything. Ok, I’m looking at the text. I’m looking at the text.

N: Ok.

R: Uh, they have that he’s captured and they - they have not received a package of any kind. Then we have - so Paks is sent to help rescue him, because he has been kidnapped, but nothing else has happened. Then...

N: ...I would go get my book but my cat is on my lap...

R: ...um. Then he - then he - then it happens, and then he is rescued, like this is all within a single chapter. That’s part of what was so striking to me. Um, it is - um. Then they get back to camp, and then, um, he sends the Duke out of the tent while the surgeon is working on him. The Duke comes back in, or - no the Duke is outside the tent and then his father bursts in, and tells him that he knows what’s going on, and that he’s still his heir, and that he did receive that package. There’s no separate scene where like, the Duke and the father get it.

N: No…

R: ...I…

N: ...No, that’s...

R: ...I’m sorry...

N: ...that’s not what I’m saying...

R: ...I thought that’s what you were saying.

N: You get as an - no. No - no.

R: Ok.

N: 100% not what I’m saying. As an aftermath to what happened we get the Duke’s reaction, his father’s reaction...

R: ...Oh sorry...

N: ...and Cal’s reaction.

R: Ok, sorry for - sorry.

N: That’s what I’m saying. We have all - we have three people for who...

R: ...Sorry...

N: ...we have...

R: ...I - I...

N: ...the aftermath...

R: ...was focusing on point of view in an extremely literal way. We never leave Cal’s point of view.

N: [laughs].

R: Ok.

N: It’s a third person book. To…

R: ...We never get...

N: ...to be fair.

R: To me...

N: ...So...

R: ...we never get the Duke’s inner monologue upon - monologue. We never got - we never got...

N: ...We don’t - we don’t get anyone’s...

R: ...We get Cal’s inner monologue...

N: …internal monologue.

R: We get...

N: ...It’s a third person book

R: We get as close to - sorry. Not trying to digress, just.

N: I mean we - we get the - we get his dad - we get the Halveric literally saying his opinion and - and his reaction. We get - we get the Duke behaviorally, descriptively...

R: ...Yes...

N: ...reacting. We get like - like, as far as an aftermath is concerned, we have three people who have very clear...

R: ...that’s true...

N: ...stances on…

R: ...we do...

N: ...this...

R: ...get their reaction. Ok, so let’s circle back. Now that I understand what you’re saying, talking about point of view for, um, what happened to Cal, all of the point of view stays with him, and so we get reactions of the people who are in the room with him, and by doing that we get several people’s reactions to what happened. Varying from the people who helped rescue him to the Duke and his father, after he has been rescued, and by doing that I - I appreciated that the traveling point of view stayed with Cal. Yeah.

N: Oh yeah. But also it is important that we don’t only ever know...

R: ...Oh sure...

N: ...how Cal...

R: ...we get...

N: ...feels.

R: Ok.

N: That was...

R: ...Do...

N: ...that was my point...

R: ...get his father saying specifically...

N: ...we do...

R: ...uh...

N: ...get multiple...

R: ...what’s happening. Um, sorry, I had taken the term point of view way more literally than you were. Um.

N: I - in a third person book I don’t. Because there’s more than one way to - ...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...to “point of view” a third person book.

(1:05:35)

R: Um, so point of view - for the point of view for the survivor's guilt, um, it’s pretty much Paks, like. It’s - it’s Paks...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and people she talks to, but it’s mostly like. what’s going on in her head.

(1:05:55)

R: Uh, and then for the assault, we - we - we don’t - so, I know you’re saying it’s a third person book but it’s - we get Paks’s thoughts, like all the time, and so I think it’s an important contrast that we don't get...

N: ...We do also get...

R: ...No, no...

N: ...Stammel...

R: ...Right. Let me finish my sentence. I do think it’s important that we don’t get Stefi’s or Korryn’s or Jens’s thoughts. Yeah.

N: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

R: Right.

N: Absolutely.

R: And so this...

N: ...Um. Actually, I - I would argue, we don’t get - we don’t get a point of view of the trauma.

R: No we don’t. I...

N: ...We only get point of view...

R: ...Sorry...

N: ...of the after...

R: ...yes...

N: ...aftermath.

R: I should have been more clear. Yeah, we don’t get anything for the actual trauma, and the aftermath is a mix of Stammel and Paks. And we don’t get...

N: And I think also - I’m trying to remember wording wise if we get a little bit of ah, Kolya?

R: Yeah, we might get some like ancillary people, um, but - but more to my point is that we - we just get it from...

N: ...We don’t get the...

R: ...Right, we don’t get the...

N: ...perpetrators at all...

R: ...perpetrators.

N: Yeah, yep. Um, and - and I do think it’s - we kind of pushed past to the aftermath. I think it is very important for this particular trauma, we don’t actually have a point of view of the trauma, because the way it is written with as much care as is taken, the actual trauma is not inflicted on the reader, even by just seeing someone go through it. And - and also it’s important to note, because this is part of why we look at [the] point of view of a trauma - of the trauma, it’s not that we just don’t see it. No we actually - we do see what is happening, and we - and the victim here is not brushed aside, even...

R: ...We get the stuff...

N: ...like at all...

R: ...that matters for figuring out...

N: ...from a reader's perspective...

R: ...how to deal with it and move on and - and...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...punish, but we...

N: ...Yes, and - and we do - and we also get how Paks is - is...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...feeling. Like we - we do get that. But - but it is - it is a very deliberate choice I think, to not have there been an onscreen...

R: ...Yes...

N: ...assault scene.

R: I’m very glad they didn’t do that.

(1:08:08)

R: Alright, so did you have an aspiring writer tip?

N: Aspiring writer tip. I - I’m trying to remember if we’ve said this one before, but I really just want to say, “Hey, it’s completely possible to write horrific trauma scenes and handle them with...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...care. With full care. That’s...

R: ...Yeah ‘cause...

N: ...a doable feat. Like, it’s - and - and in a way that doesn't obscure any details. Like, for all of these scenes we’re talking about rereading them as - as adults, like, even the things that I didn’t understand when I was four, I fully, fully, know, exactly...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...what is happening in all of these scenes. But none of these scenes but me...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...the reader through anything. 0%, and that’s - it’s hard to do, it’s hard to know...

R: ...But it’s achievable...

N: ...how to do. It’s achievable, and it - and it really kind of - now, to be fair, there are books where authors, like authors make different choices, and there are totally stories where authors choose to have your reader go through something as part of the experience, but also like, a lot what Elizabeth Moon chooses as trauma for her characters, are incredibly viceral traumas. They’re incredibly just there and - and this is a series that I read, now, disclaimer, there are other things going on in my life at the time when I was four that meant that this was - probably sheltered me from this a little bit, maybe, contextually, but like, also, I was four. I read this series, I loved it. This is my favorite author. This is arguably my favorite series that exists, or at least my first favorite, and I read this as a four year old, and I read these awful things, and I was fine, because the language used was done in a way where it did not cheapen my experience in the story at all but I was also not traumatized by this. Do I recommend reading this book to your four year old? No, [laughs], don’t read this to your four year old, but also like this is - she does this very, very, very well, and it’s awesome. And it’s achievable, and I would - I would hold this book up as an example to literally anybody that ever tried to say that putting your - putting your - your audience through the trauma is inevitable. Like, no! No it’s not. You can make that choice but it’s...

R: ...Yep...

N: ...it’s a choice.

(1:10:27)

R: Alright, so favorite non traumatic thing about the book. Um, I don’t know. I really liked - I mean kind of what I - do you know? Do you have a thing?

N: Uh? I - I do.

R: Ok, I’m thinking.

N: Well, actually - I have - I have a favorite traumatic thing...

R: ...Well...

N: ...don't really have a favorite non traumatic one...

R: ...Niki, favorite non traumatic thing. That’s how this works.

N: I’m thinking. I know, I’m thinking. Um, I - ok. I got it. My favorite non traumatic thing about this book is probably the relationship that Stammel has with his - his recruits. I love it. It is - he is a - he is - he is in charge, he is teaching them. He is a mentor. He is - He’s very, uh - he’s very - very strict, very stern, very in charge, which he has to be. He’s - he’s teaching them fighting techniques...

R: ...He’s trying to keep them alive...

N: ...and he’s also, while doing that, trying to keep them alive, but like, he does not pull back on - on discipline, even a little bit. He doesn’t pull back on experiences that are necessary for them to learn things, reflexes, attitudes, behaviors that will keep them alive. He doesn’t coddle them in any way, shape or form, but they trust him. He has trained them so that he can trust them. He takes care of them. Even - even little things like, there's actual battle scenes that we have and he goes through, keeps track of his recruits, taps them on the shoulder and says, “Hey, you, back off the front lines because you’re injured, you’re tired, you’re falling over, you’ve been out here for two hours, go get something to eat. Swap out with someone,” like he is actively taking care of them, and it shows. And it shows in how, even just how Paks, and a little bit we get of - of a couple other characters, talking to him about things that they’re going through, and he’s very much - even - even just things like, there’s the one tavern scene where he takes the recruits out to the tavern and he teaches them how to stay - these are, in medieval times, these are country kids, or some of them, going to go drink in a city with their first paycheck for the first time, and he makes sure they get home safe. And he does - and it’s not that he watches all of the recruits, he specifically pulls out the country kids who don’t know how to stay safe in a city and makes sure that they get home safe. And the people that - that grew up in towns and know how to handle themselves, or grew up in a city and know how to handle themselves, he lets them go. And then, when they don’t come back in time, or they don’t come back sober, or they don’t come back with all their money, they are now taken to task for it, because they should not have needed him to hold their hand, but like there’s just this - I just, you know - I - if I had to pick a role model for being a - a leader of people...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...Stammel is up there. Just full stop, in general, as a character, as a - as a concept.

R: Uh, so, my favorite non traumatic thing about the book is um, kind of a weird one, how - how - especially when like, I do kind of remember where she’s gonna end up, like later in the series, it is very humorous to have Paks be like, “Ah, that cramp that totally stopped me from getting killed by a poisoned arrow, what? Have anything to do with this medallion on my chest? What? No. No... “

N: [laughs]

R: “...I’m not - I’m - I’m totally not defiantly anything. No, no, no. No one’s looking out for me. No.”

N: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

R: Uh, yeah.

N: I mean to be fair, as an anecdote, it - her...

R: ...Oh sure...

N: ...reaction makes sense but it - yeah, it is very, very funny in juxtaposition to be like...

R: ...Yeah...

N: … “What? Me? Special? Pssh.” [laughs] She doesn't know she’s the protagonist...

R: ...right, right...

N: ...in an...

R: ...that’s basically it...

N: ...adventure story...

R: ...boils down to her being like, “Me? Protagonist? No. No, no, no, no, no. Of course not. Couldn't be.”

N: She is the anime character...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...with pink hair that is like, “Nah.”

R: Yeah.

N: It’s funny.

R: Alright, uh, that’s it for “The Sheepfarmer’s Daughter”, and we will see you all in a fortnight for the next book, “Divided Allegiance”.

Outro: Begins at 1:14:58.

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