N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin and welcome to Books That Burn, where today we are discussing “Divided Allegiance”, book two of “The Deed of Paksenarrion”, by Elizabeth Moon. For our factions, we have Paksenarrion. We have uh, the goddess Arachya and her followers. We don’t literally have the goddess, mostly the followers. We have the Order of Gird, uh, priests, and uh, members of the Grange. We have the Kuakgan, Master Oakhallow, dwarves, elves, and gnomes. We have the paladin master Amberion, and other various paladins. We have Paksenarrion’s horses; Socks and Star.

N: So, speaking of horses...

R: ...Yes, I was...

N: ...we’re actually talking about one of those horses for our minor character. I think...

R: ...We should always do this...

N: ...I think this is - should always what? Talk about the horses?

R: Yes.

N: But that implies that every horse undergoes trauma in every book.

R: Uh, nevermind, maybe not for this podcast.

N: [laughs] Um, uh - so - yeah, like, that’s not a good thing. So I think this is actually our first...

R: ...It’s our first actual...

N: ...like animal, animal. It’s our - it’s our first non anthropomorphic animal.

R: Non magical...

N: ....non magical...

R: ...non special…

N: ...non talking...

R: ...Yeah. Socks is just a regular horse.

N: Socks is just a pony. Well.

R: I think he’s just a horse not a pony, but anyway. It’s not like how you can call all doggos “puppers”, it’s not the same thing.

N: [laughs]

R: It’s a different species. Uh...

N: ...It’s...

R: ...at least different enough...

N: ...it’s - it’s so tempting to be wildly incorrect with how to refer to horses this whole segment.

R: Please don’t.

N: [laughs]

R: It’s gonna bother me.

N: Yeah, I know.

R: Uh, so we have Socks and he’s named because he white stockings and a blaze, if you...

N: ...Oh,

R: ...don’t know

N: ...what - do you - the…

R: ...horse things.

N: I was gonna say, do you know the correct term for that - that particular marking...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...set on a horse?

R: Yeah, well, no - no not as a group no.

N: Oh, well. Ok, nevermind.

R: I just, he has white stockings and he has a blaze. That means he has um, a thing on his forehead. It’s probably white but they don’t say. Usually...

N: ...I...

R: ...that’s what that...

N: ...they...

R: ...means that he’s got...

N: ...do they not say?

R: I don’t...

N: ...I was under the impression that they did specifically white stockings, white...

R: ...I don’t remember...

N: ...forehead.

R: Yeah. I think it was like white stockings and a blaze. Anyway, “Blaze” usually means that it’s white. My horse knowledge is mostly in the like, “fanboy of horses” type of knowledge. Uh, but anyway. Um.

N: This is not a horse podcast, so.

R: This is not a horse podcast, so we’re fine. Ok, so, uh, Socks has wounds from his last owner and he kicks anyone who tries to touch his feet, especially his hind feet, and...

N: ...And it’s - it’s more than - it’s more than just kicking, like the kicking is the extreme, “Hey, don’t touch that” reaction...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...but really, that - that - he has issues with people feeding him and getting too close, with people walking around him with...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...being groomed, like brushed at all.

R: Yeah.

N: Like, the - there’s a conversation between Paks and between Siri who works at the stable hand and she - Siri basically says like, “I tried to - could n[ot] - I couldn’t even get near him,” and like it was impressive to her that Paks could even - could even like rub down his back, or brush his back at all.

R: Speaking of which, uh, Paks was magically compelling him at the start of their relationship. She had a magic ring that let her calm him and even though she wasn’t a bad person really, on the whole she’s not a bad person and so...

N: ...in - in - in the realm...

R: ...it worked out ok for him, but he...

N: ...in the realm of...

R: ...still was being...

N: ...D&D-esque

R: ...magically compelled and controlled...

N: ...Yeah, in the realm of D&D-esque, nothing about her personal alignment and decisions, is anywhere near...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ... evil. However.

(5:08)

R: Right. But also she meets him after having used the ring to uh, hold still a creature while it could be killed. Now...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...how bad she feels about that, that’s later for talking about Paks, if we...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...ever decide to talk about that. But, as it relates to the ring, yeah it - it shows that she isn’t using this ring to hurt him, but she could have been, and his most recent owner, uh, right before Paks, died of being a bully who didn’t want to pay his bill. Uh, the bill about Socks actually, um, because he was so hard to shoe because he had previously been injured and we don’t know if it was this - the person who um, who most recently owned him or not, but someone...

N: ...Wait, what?

R: ...wounded...

N: ...Oh you...

R: ...What? We don’t - the rest of my sentence is, but someone wounded his feet. Someone...

N: ...Uh...

R: ...wounded his fetlocks. We - we...

N: ...There’s...

R: ...don’t...

N: ...I mean there’s pretty - it’s - it’s not like - it’s not like...

R: ...It’s...

N: ...the text...

R: ...not unreasonable to think it was that person.

N: Oh, it is - it is set up in the book to make it - to make it say like, “No, this is the person who did all of these things.”

R: Yeah. And this person like, had him in a spiked bit, like, yeah. Um, I was just saying that like in the long life of horses it is possible that it was someone else who caused the initial injury but...

N: ...But - but that doesn't...

R: ...we don’t have...

N: ...matter...

R: ...enough information...

N: ...narratively. Like there’s...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...noth - there’s nothing that even - that doesn't even matter with...

R: ...Yeah.

N: Like, the - the thing that - so the thing that he - that this pony, or this horse - I’m gonna keep calling him a pony.

R: He’s not a pony.

N: I think they don’t - I think they use - I think they - in the book Paks uses pony to refer to horses anyway.

R: Sometimes. Like she calls Star a good pony, but I think Star is actually a pony. It’s why I’m not worried about it. But Socks is...

N: [laughs]

R: ...definitely not a pony.

N: Um, yeah, so the - it’s - it’s interesting that - so the ring doesn’t - it - it - it doesn’t calm him down, actually. That’s a - that’s a...

R: ...No...

N: ...really good thing to - to talk about.

R: Mmhmm.

N: The ring is a compulsion, and she can order him to do something and she can encourage him and she can kind of mind speak to him essentially, so it’s not that she can magically calm him, but she can...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...tell him in a way that he will understand and will obey to hold still or not kick, or come to her or leave or - and - and - and I think that that’s important because...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...this - this ring is not like a medicinal um...

R: ...It doesn’t make him feel better, it just makes him behave.

N: Right, which - which in the context of - of abuse and in trauma, is - is actually something - it - it - it puts a different flavor on it because if she was giving him like, the, I don’t know. Do horses have the serotonin, with their happy chemical? Uh.

(8:12)

R: I, don’t know that they don’t. I have no idea.

N: Would middle school you have known? No I’m just kidding. Um.

R: No.

N: But it - it’s not that he...

R: ...I can spot a strawberry roan like *that* though, um.

N: [laughs] Impressive.

R: Thank you.

N: So, he - the - the ring is - is a compulsion but it’s a compulsion that the animal is aware is happening to them, and...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...there’s a couple different written-out pieces where we kind of get Star’s um - oh I’m sorry, Sock’s - we get Sock’s like description of his response to her. Like there’s at one point where he’s going to - I don’t remember if he’s gonna kick or if he was trying to bolt, or there - there was something where...

R: ...It’s Socks. He was probably gonna kick.

N: Prob[ably] - but there’s this particular moment where she tells him to stay, and basically holds him physically still because otherwise he would have injured somebody else and probably also himself, to be fair. And even though that is for his - his own safety, and other people’s safety, he is - he - he - he stands there but he is quivering, shaking, because...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...he’s not calm. He is just being held.

R: And even before the ring is ever used on him, we have explicitly in the text, again when the snow cat gets killed, um, that it does - we have it very visceral shown that it does not change their mind, it just moves their bodies.

N: Oh yeah. It - it is a literal compulsion.

R: Yeah, and so we go into this with it explicit in the text that just because he’s behaving doesn't mean that he feels any better or is calmer. Now, because Paks is taking good care of him...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ....and is showing in other ways that he can trust her eventually he does calm down, and then...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...when she gives away the ring, then they have enough trust to keep going forward.

N: Yeah. it - it’s very much an instance of like, this was necessary to kind of - it - it’s almost - its almost a situation where like - like with this horse, like she almost needed - she almost needed this thing to let - to even to like hold him there and keep him safe long enough for him to see that she wasn't going to hurt him and for him to, you know, to - to kind of go through the experience of like, her throwing away the bit that hurts his mouth, and...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...putting in something that feels better, and her being the person who takes him to um, the uh, master Oakhollow…

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...the kaukgan and getting some healing, some physical healing for him, and her being the person who rides him every day, and then takes care of him, and doesn't just leave him dirty and gross. And - and he...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...there needed to be - and - and there - it’s actually, kind of explicitly said but said by another character, said by the kuakgan...

R: ...Mmhmm.

N: *Fuzzim are just knocking my stuff off or are you just rubbing on the dresser?* Ok, alright.

(11:27)

Sorry. Um, it - it’s explicitly said by the kuakgan that she probably could have accomplished everything that she did with him, even without the ring, just because she is - she is - like she’s not faking it with him. She’s legitimately kind and caring, and taking care of him and so, you know like Robin said, when she gave away the ring, it didn’t impair that at all. It just meant...

R: ...Right...

N: ...that now he was trusting her for real instead of holding still because she wanted him to. And so, it was totally possible that she could just have accomplished everything that she did anyway, it would just probably have taken it a lot longer, but it was totally doable. But the thing with the ring is that it - it - it’s…

R: ...It shortened it...

N: ...it shortened it but it shortened it because it was forcing him to cooperate with her at first and...

R: ...so then from the perspective of Socks being traumatized, it ended up working out ok...

N: Something - something else with - ‘cause we’ve talked a lot currently about Paks’s treatment of Socks. We haven’t really talked about the implication of his treatment before.

R: Mmhmm.

N: So, without summarizing, without summarizing story...

R: ...Sure...

N: ...he has a - a collection of - of injuries and a collection of scars...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...like long term - this is not - this is not like somebody hurt his ankles and he has fresh wounds like he has deep embedded scars in his hocks...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and across his flanks I think, too a little bit. There’s like scarring. It’s not just at his hooves, and he has, like, scars in his mouth from...

R: ...Froma spiked bit...

N: ...yeah, and I think there’s - there’s something else too.

R: Yeah, and also like, he had training that seemed like just for warhorses, and like - like be able to like spin on like a dime in one direction and to me it seems stuff that’s like super fancy but not super useful, but if you’re just trying to impress people with your fancy horse, it’ll impress people, and just the whole shape of it makes it seem like he was being hurt and controlled by people who weren’t worried about his welfare or what training would be good for him.

N: Yeah, and you had - you had actually put this even more explicitly when we had kind of pre-talked about what we were gonna say.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, you had said that it - it seemed like he was - he - he had um, been trained for specifically to show him off and to display him, and to...

R: ...Oh yeah...

N: ...look fancy and not be utilitarian…

R: ...Right...

N: ...and that phrase kind of stuck out to me.

R: Mmhmm…

N: ...especially because...

R: ...yeah definitely to...

N: ...especially because he does have physical injuries that you can see.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And there’s this - there’s this like narrative almost, like, clashing juxtaposition where you have this horse that was trained to be pretty, but physically has very ugly scars.

R: Yeah.

N: From the treatment to get him there and - and there’s - and the thing is, like Paks starts working with him, and after a while once he trusts her and once they’re working together, this horse does not have like any “innate tendencies” that would have, that, you know, that somebody could have used to justify or attempt to justify this treatment of him, like no. He is - he doesn't do anything that would have been an excuse that someone could have use - tried to use.

(14:55)

R: He just is, you know, very forcefully saying, “Stop touching my feet. They hurt.”

N: But I’m saying like that - that’s not even, like I don’t even think that’s part of it because I - I’m saying like, ‘cause that’s - that’s the thing with an injury, but I’m saying like before he had that - that physical mistreatment...

R: Well, no that’s what I’m saying is that the only - the most violent thing he does is say, “Stop poking my scars,” and

N: ...Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah...

R: ...of course he says that - before people get to actually poking them...

N: ...Right...

R: ...because he’s very hurt and very preventative but that’s the only mean thing he does is say, “That hurts, don’t do that,” and that’s...

N: ...Right...

R: ...and once you make that not hurt, yeah, he’s - he...

N: ...He is just this...

R: ...high spirit - high spirited but...

N: ...Yeah, he’s a very energetic, jumpy, bouncy - not jumpy, like, energetic, prancy, bouncy horse...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...but like he’s - he’s like...

R: ...Yeah, it definitely points to it all being from him being hurt…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...for no reason.

N: Yeah, and - and - and...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...not saying that there’s a reason to have hurt him but, you know from a - from a narrative abuser’s perspective, there isn’t even like a - a - a written-in thing that they could have - they could have been like, “Well, the horse made me do it,” like there’s nothing that could have even...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...been used that way, and that - that - I feel like that makes it - that puts a - a - a different flavor on it, like this is not an - an owner desperate to control an animal and doing things that are awful and - and feeling pushed into it, like there’s nothing like that. This is just somebody that looked...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...that looked at a horse and said, “You know what, I just feel like hurting you today,” and...

R: “...Spiked bits, bit on command, gonna use spiked spurs, like let’s go.” Yeah.

N: Yeah, “We’re gonna use spurs, we’re gonna…” What did they do to the - do you know what they did to get scars like that on the - in the - at the ankles? Like that on the back legs?

R: I have no idea.

N: Ok.

R: I...

N: ...I mean...

R: ...if they...

N: ...that’s probably a good thing...

R: ...use - yeah, I have - I have no idea.

[Musical Interlude]

R: Alright, moving onto Paks, fighting for the Webmistress’s servants.

N: That’s a weird word to say, um.

R: It’s a very weird word.

N: So, this is a whole - we’re gonna - I’m just gonna go ahead and - and say up front that if - if - if we end up needing more explicit content warning, those are prob[ably] - you’ve already seen those in our - our description of the episode, but we are talking about some pretty graphic violence, and that might come up in our discussion, so this is an extra, added heads-up for that.

R: Yeah. Though, I - I would say, on the level of physical violence portrayed in books, we’ll get to it in the wrap up, but I would push back on this having been super graphic.

N: Oh no, I’m not saying the book was graphic, I’m saying we might be graphic.

R: Yeah.

N: Big difference.

R: Um, ok, alright. So, uh, I don’t know like the most - to me the most like, torturous part of this, other than that she basically has to keep fighting and trying not to die is that the stuff they give her to keep her going, doesn't slake her hunger or her thirst and it just - she’s just getting energy shots after she crashes, like, that’s really rough.

N: Yeah, um, uh... oh, no, that was what I wanted. Sorry um.

R: Yeah.

N: I - yeah, so she - well really? I mean.

R: I mean the - combined with the...

N: ...physically...

R: ...sleep deprivation...

N: ...That’s - yeah...

R: ...yeah - like...

N: ...physically yeah.

R: And - and then mentally she keeps trying to call to Gird um, even though she’s not a Girdsman, she keeps trying and eventually she goes from trying to call for his help to just thanking him for letting her fight because she’s just stuck on the like, “Gird is a fighter”...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...side of things.

N: This is a - this is a weird kind of - so with - with regards to - with regards to this particular fantasy story, it’s very unlike reality um, where the gods that are believed are physical presences and a lot of them were initially human beings that were raised to godhood. They weren't, like some of our real life texts, they were not “god who came to Earth”. They were a person who then was elevated and so...

R: ...may I say these...

N: ...huh?

R: I was gonna say these books are much different to read as an atheist now than when I was Christian.

N: [laughs] Yeah.

R: Uh, it’s way different.

N: It’s a whole different story. Um, from that lens. Yeah, so...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...so when she is calling out to Gird, she is not calling to someone that she just believes exists, like she’s calling to a person that she can look up in the history books, and...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and look up the history of this human being, who then now has people who follow him after death. Like, there are - there are legitimate magical powers that are granted to - to paladins of this order. Like this is not - this is not - question...

R: ...Like magically getting a horse too.

N: ...right. Right, exactly. Like this is not a - this is not a belief, this is a misunderstanding for her of...

R: ...Hmm...

N: ...what he’s about, because when she’s - part of - this is part of like the - the actual trauma that goes into this is where, like she’s calling out to Gird, but Gird is not just all about fighting, and in this context, that makes - that matters.

(20:55)

R: Right. It’s about like, fighting justly and to help, and yeah.

N: Yeah, it’s about defending the people that need defending. It’s not just about combat.

R: Mmhmm. Yeah, about - about being someone who will put their body on the line to protect those who can’t do that.

N: Yeah.

R: And, also when they finally let her go, she fights through a...

N: ...let her go...

R: ...bunch of ene...

N: [laughs]

R: ...yeah. When they finally release her they put, like, a bunch of the kind of enemies that she has been fighting, back to back with her companions, and she almost kills them, and the only reason that they don’t kill her is because she manages to finally call out to Gird after days of having tried.

N: Well that’s such a like.

R: It feels a little Deus Ex Machina, like...

N: ...It’s - well, it’s more...

R: ...like it finally worked...

N: ...it’s more than that because it’s not just that it finally works, we have - I - I don’t have my book in front of me, but there’s a - there’s a thing, I think where Ambrose goes up, or, I think, goes up and like commands her to stop in the name of Gird and we get like a - we - we get - we get almost a set - there’s enough set up on both sides where it seems like he invoked Gird, so she could - and that let her reach Gird. Like, it’s not as much Deus ex - Deus Ex Machina, as it is like...

R: ...I found the paragraph.

N: Ok.

R: Uh, no she is thinking, “Fight through to my friends by Gird.”

N: Right.

R: And then she actually says, “In the name of Gird.” Um, I’m looking before that to see if he says...

N: ‘Cause there’s - there’s a double description of that scene. There’s the one from the party’s view, and then there’s the one - uh, no. Don’t look before.

R: Oh.

N: Look after, because...

R: ...Oh, the - that’s right...

N: ...when they’re telling her…

R: ...it’s after…

N: ...what happened.

R: Ok, I don’t think I’ll find that in time.

N: Ok.

R: I’ll leave that alone.

N: Alright. I - I think that - I’m pretty sure that that was part of...

R: ...but from the description we hear on her side, it doesn’t seem like she heard anybody call out to Gird.

N: Oh no, that’s not...

R: ...That’s all I was...

N: ...what I’m saying. Like she doesn’t - she doesn’t know that that’s how.

R: Ok.

N: Uh.

R: Alright.

N: But like from a...

R: ...Oh...

N: ...from a...

R: ...you’re saying that’s

N: ...magical perspective...

R: ...possible.

N: Yes. I’m saying like in the story...

R: …‘Cause the space had already been opened.

N: ...that’s why she invoked him, because somebody else had already invoked his presence in a...

R: ...in the stronghold of his enemies, yeah...

N: ...in a healthy, accurate way...

R: ...Right, right...

N: ...instead of just saying, “Help me kill this person,” kind of way.

(23:26)

R: Yeah.

N: Um.

R: Also, uh, the thing with the amped-up scarring, in her wounds...

N: ...Oh my gosh...

R: ...like all of her wounds were made to heal like super, super fast...

N: ...to “heal”.

R: Well, they were made to close up in a...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...big scar.

N: They were made to close and not get infected...

R: ...but like.. .

N: ...and scar, but like...

R: ...for the rest of the book, they just hurt.

N: Oh my gosh.

R: And, that kind of low level pain that just doesn't go away, that’s so bad. And that’s - I mean, we’re talking about where she got that, but I just wanted to say that like it keeps going, and it keeps hurting her.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um.

N: Yeah, and they - so...

R: ...so like there’s a whole lot of gaslighting both in trying to get her to kill her companions, and also in trying to make her fight because it’s what tran - it’s what transforms it where like she can’t trust her food or water, and she…

N: ...Oh my gosh...

R: ...the first time they try to feed her, she knows she shouldn’t take it, and when she does, she no longer is worried about it, and...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...may I just say, it’s the second time in this book that eating or drinking something has made her no longer be worried about whether she should do something. It’s the second time.

N: [laughs] Yeah, uh. There - that’s a theme...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...I wanna say, in Elizabeth Moon’s fantasy.

R: Oh yeah? Watch what you eat?

N: Well, ok.

R: Like...

N: ...not necessarily watch what you eat, but like, taking food or drink from your enemy...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...is a risky maneuver and they do not have your best interests at heart, and they will use...

R: ...Right…

N: ...magical food or drink to - to get what they want, like I - I - I can’t just pull up specific - more specific examples than that but like...

R: ...sure...

N: ...I’m pretty sure that that is also a thing in the prequels, and I think it might happen or - or it’s thwarted, an attempt...

R: ...but it’s - it’s definitely in other parts...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...other bits of her writing...

N: ...I mean it was in...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it was in book one...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...with the love potion, kind of.

R: Oh yeah! I wasn’t thinking about that - with that, yeah...

N: ...I...

R: …’cause…

N: ...I don’t think it was in her sci-fi, but also that makes sense, ‘cause...

R: ...yeah...

N: ...you’re not dealing with like...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...magic.

R: It’s a little bit different. Um.

N: But yeah, that’s a - that’s a thing, be - like don’t take food and drink from- from people who wish you harm.

R: Yeah.

N: So, l - I think that’s interesting, as a theme. Um.

R: Oh yeah.

N: So I - going back to - to Paks.

R: Yes.

N: I don’t know what else to call it, other than gaslighting. It - because it’s not an edit of past events that’s happening, and I don’t actually know if gaslighting has to be telling you that something was different in the past, or if it can be just lying to you with the purpose of changing...

R: ... I think...

N: ...your view in the moment. I’m not actually sure.

R: It - it definitely - it definitely can be both because convincing someone that at any point what they thought happened isn’t what happened, it can either be, “No what you’re seeing right now is wrong,” or “No, I don’t see it, you must be crazy,” or it can be, “No, you’re not remembering that right,” because enough of “No, you’re not remembering that right,” can really break someone down, and...

N: ...Mmm...

R: ...they do both.

(26:59)

They do both...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...to her. They mess with her past memories. They also - they show how the elves did mess with her memory, but the elves, like...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...did the errand she was supposed to do, presumably, and got her to do something else, but because um, the Webmistress’s servants were able to point that out, I mean - I don’t think they were lying. They were taking advantage of this deception that had happened, in order to gaslight her further.

N: Ok, that makes sense.

R: Yeah.

N: It - it’s also like a, it’s an interesting... from an academic standpoint...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...it’s an interesting thing because they have physical, coercion, magical coercion, and also gaslighting to make them more effective.

R: Mmhmm...

N: ...Like physical coercion...

R: ...They’re...

N: ...being the uh, “You have to fight, you have to eat and drink our thing that doesn't help you. You can’t sleep or you’ll die.”

R: Yeah.

N: That’s the physical coercion. And then magical coercion with the things that she drinks, and with the armor that helps to gaslight her and, there’s just like a lot put in there. But also, and we’ll - we’ll talk about this in the wrap-up, kind of like you had mentioned, like, reading it as a - as a - as an audience member, it’s not super visceral.

R: Right...

N: ...Uh...

R: ...they even skip over large sections of time and it’s like...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: …“Oh she kept going, and here she gets a knife, and here she gets armor,” like...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...they - they skip a lot of it.

N: Yeah, they had like - they had like some descriptions of her, like the first like two - two or three battles I think, and they...

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...kind of have more of a description of like, her “breaking out to hurt to hurt, to go get her friends”, or whatever, but it’s actually her fighting through and almost hitting them, like they have a description of that...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...but they - they

R: ...but I…

N: ...literally say that she - time blurred together, so she wasn’t sure, which meant that the audience doesn't have to go through it, and I - I just think that that’s...

R: ...It’s a really…

N: ...was well done...

R: ...technique, because if you’re trying to make - show how she doesn't feel like she knows how much time has passed, skipping over large sections of time...

N: ...yeah...

R: ...will do that...

N: ...will do that to…

R: ...to your audience too...

N: ...your reader. And also saves them from experiencing what you’ve been through. It’s...

R: ...Exactly...

N: ...very nice. Very nicely done.

R: Yeah.

[Musical Interlude]

R: Alright, now we have magical brain surgery, uh, and Paks had asked before the surgery to be killed, rather than lose the part of her that is a fighter, and so she loses control, and they’re disrespecting her autonomy and uh, Nicole pointed out that this is yet another book with magical brain surgery...

N: …For...

R: ...getting a theme here.

N: We - we have a trend going.

R: Yes, yes.

N: Not intentional we promise, and also like, we do get to pick the traumas we talk about, like. [laughs]

R: Right, well this one’s...

N: ...We have a little bit of ageist - well this one is super important to the actual...

R: ...this one is...

N: ...book...

R: ...very important and I had forgotten that this was the trauma in this book, and I had been bracing for the trauma that’s in book three, that we’re definitely gonna talk about, uh, and so...

N: …[laughs], oh yeah...

R: ...I was emotionally braced for an entirely different event, and then got hit with this as the last like fifty pages and...

N: …[laughs]...

R: ...I was angry when I put the book down. I was like…

N: ...Oh you were...

R: …“What? Why did they do this? I hate this...

N: ...Why - why did this happen to me?”

R: I hate this so much. I hate this kind of twist in this stage of a story. I hate act three...

N: ...Oh my gosh…

R: ...in most movies, with like, people just like, lying to each other, or - and like this felt like that kind of thing and it made me really mad.

N: [laughs]

R: Um. Yeah.

N: Oh man.

R: So, I have very strong feelings about this.

N: Strong opinions.

R: Especially when she wanted to die rather than lose this part of her and then they’re just like, “But you can stay here, you don’t have to leave.” And she’s like, “I’m literally terrified, of all of you...

N: Yeah, like they violated her...

R: ...I can’t stay here…”

N: ...trust, and they violated her trust in a way that um, like they - they, it’s - it’s this really cool narrative thing.

R: Yeah.

N: ‘Cause they - so she was so - ok. The thing that they pulled out, wasn’t like explicitly her courage, but it was connected to it.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And so her courage and her - her ability to just kind of shrug off things and keep going, was kind of collateral damage.

R: Also when you do brain surgery without the ability to have brain scans, you’re gonna mess something up...

N: ...Well…

R: ...and...

N: ...yeah, that’s fair...

R: …Yeah...

N: ...and also magic um…

R: ...not the same as literal surgery...

N: ...yeah, which is weird ‘cause it’s both less and more precise.

R: Mmhmm. Because...

N: ...Um...

R: ...they are like, “We are going to take out you being super angry and slowly having evil grow inside your skull…”

N: ...Right...

R: “...oh, but the anger makes you a good fighter, oh sorry…”

N: ...Well it’s not just...

R: “...Whoops.”

N: It’s not just the anger. I feel like...

R: ...Well no, they’re not...

N: ...No ‘cause...

R: ...trying to get rid of the anger, and it’s connected.

N: That's true. It - I mean - I mean the thing with it too is like, because of the way that she was magically infected with this thing, it was explicitly tied to the combat that we talk about in - we talked about in part two.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And so like it - it’s not - it’s not this unrelated like, “Oh, we’re gonna take out the anger, and that might kill your fighting instinct,” like, no.

(32:34)

N: They - they knew that that might be collateral damage because of how it was done to her.

R: Yeah.

N: And...

R: ...but like, before they made it...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...try to seem like they would, you know, have as little of a change as possible and hopefully everything will be fine, and she brings up, “If I lose this, I would rather die.”

N: Yes. And - and...

R: ...They didn’t say, “You might lose this,” and then she said, “Oh, I’d rather die.”

N: No...

R: ...she separately

N: ...she was aware...

R: …was so terrified of it.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah, uh, and once she’s not - once she leaves because everyone just has a sword strapped to their body, because it’s a medieval setting.

N: Oh she...

R: ...Uh...

N: ...she had like - I...

R: Like she’s afraid of like, knives, like I think? Like...

N: I wanna almost like argue that she has like backlog PTSD.

R: Right, because she’s retroactively afair - afraid of every time she’s been near a blade, and she’s got all these memories that she can’t square with how she feels now...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...without the kind of transitional memories that you would normally get when you change as a person.

N: Yeah.

R: She went straight from being totally fine, to totally not, and she’s like, “I don’t know how I ever touched one of these things.”

N: Yeah.

R: Like, “No one will be ok with me, because my body shows scars.”

N: Oh yeah, there’s like a whole...

R: ...like that’s part of it too...

N: ...yeah, there's’ a lot of layers to all of that.

R: Mmhmm. Yeah, so even though they give her a letter of safe passage, she is so terrified of everyone that she can’t even consistently show it to try and get help, so the little help they try and give her, is very ineffective because they underestimate how terrified she is.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And they keep acting like it’s just gonna come back. Like, there’s no aftercare, there’s no followup. They both assume...

N: ...No...

R: ...that she’s more competent than she is and deny her the autonomy to have known when she is in her right mind, what she wanted done with her body, which was not to be in it if she was like this.

N: Yeah.

R: And I keep coming back to that, because it makes me very angry.

N: Oh, it’s - it’s awful. It’s super bad. Um, oh what’s the - trying to think of the - she’s like - I mean it - and - and - and - and - I think that really is kind of the awful part about this, because it’s - it’s - it would be very different, be a very different story if she and they both just didn’t know it was gonna happen, and this was necessary... I mean - it - it was. It was necessary for her to - to have happen, but like, the consequences were not unforeseen...

R: ...Right...

N: ...and - and, you know, just - I mean like you said, like the fact that they - the consequences were foreseen...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...she said, “This is what I want or don't want if this is true,” and then after it happened they looked at her and were like, “Mh, eh.”

(35:22)

R: They're like, “We can’t kill you, you’re helpless,” and she’s like “Literally, did not want to be helpless.”

N: Like, “Please put me out of my misery,” and they’re like, “Nahhh.”

R: But also she’s not gonna bring it up again once she comes out of it because...

N: ...Oh no, she is terrified.

R: Right! She’s terrified, she’s not gonna say, “Please kill me,” like she can’t even imagine having been in the state of mind where she’d rather die than be like this, ‘cause she can’t even understand her previous self, like this.

N: Mmhmm. But this is the equivalent of, “Hey, there’s cancer,” well, see - no, it’s the equivalent of, “Hey, there’s cancer in your leg, we’re gonna try and save you leg, but we’re also gonna get all of the cancer,” then you wake up from surgery and find out they had to chop off your leg, and they basically look at you and said, “Ok, well, the stump is healing nicely, see ya.”

R: Yeah.

N: And there’s no - there’s no emotional support, there’s no helping you get back on your feet. There's no helping you to function without a leg, there’s just, “Well, you lived. Cool.”

R: Right.

N: “That’s healing really well,” and done. It’s...

R: ...Right...

N: ...it’s that.

R: ...not like you can’t live after, but she was very afraid of this very specific downside and then it happened.

N: Yeah.

R: And because of the nature of the downside, she’s now terrified by everything.

N: [laughs] That really is like the thing that makes you - yeah.

R: Also, like when she went - like she - there’s a bit where like, she goes to work for someone and then that person throws her out because she couldn't’ defend the caravan.

N: Oh, she - she basically got fired for not doing her job...

R: ...after not getting…

N: ....because she was hired for them...

R: ...the job.

N: That’s - no, ok. That’s true, that’s fair, um...

R: ...Yeah, she wasn’t hired to defend...

N: ...Yeah, she was hired to - she was hired as a civilian, she was fired as...

R: ...for not being a soldier...

N: ...as a soldier, yeah, and there’s - the - there’s a lot of that where she like, she does her job but the other person doesn't care or doesn't like, blah blah blah, or thinks that she should be different and then gets her in trouble or kicks her out, or, there’s just a lot. She goes through - yeah, essentially like the last part of the book, just not functioning and not doing well, and not eating and not sleeping, and, and being scared of everything and I think it’s - it’s also kind of interesting to look at it because she - she’s - she’s not - like with all of this trauma and all of this everything, she’s really having to learn how to be different, how to function differently, and that’s hard. It’s hard to kind of re-get to know yourself after trauma, but it is a especially hard in her case to have to relearn who she is when that trauma happens with - in an instant, with like, she goes to sleep, she has this thing, she wakes up and everything is different, and - like - I - I - and I’m not saying, like, I’m not saying it’s harder to figure out who you are after long term or short term trauma, but like, there’s an - there’s an - there is an added element to the fact that this was - this was an overnight change.

R: Yeah.

N: And...

R: ...I would definitely...

N: ...and it’s, yeah. It’s just, it’s a lot to go through, essentially.

R: Yeah.

[Musical Interlude]