Title

Series 4 Episode 3

Book 3 of The Deed of Paksenarrion Trilogy by Elizabeth Moon

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

From the Show Notes...

This fortnight we bring you “Oath of Gold”, book three of "The Deed Of Paksenarrion" trilogy by Elizabeth Moon.

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)

R: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (0:23-0:48)

Plot Synopsis (0:48-1:00)

N: This week we are discussing “Oath of Gold”, the third book in The Deed of Paksenarrion Trilogy. In this book, both Paksenarrion and Duke Valen discover they really are who they want to be.

Factions (1:00-3:35)

N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin and welcome to Books That Burn, where today we’re discussing “Oath of Gold,” book three of The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon. Heading into our factions we have Paksenarrion Dorthansdotter, have Elves, mostly from Lyona, humans from Lyona, and also from other surrounding kingdoms. And then we have Duke Phelan - Duke Phelan, also known as Falkieri Amrothlin Artifielan Phelan. We have - we have the Kuakgnon and followers of Liart, and Arachya, and other minor gods.

N: Yeah, so uh quick thing to note, and we’re gonna - we’ll put this in our show notes also, but just in case you didn’t look at those, We’re actually only doing two topics today, but they’re gonna be la - they’re gonna be longer, they’re gonna be a little bit more in depth, they’re gonna be more involved, and the reason for that has kind of two parts to it. Part one is essentially because in this book the things that happen to a couple particular characters, particularly to our main character Paksenarrion, are so intense and sustained and graphic and big, that um, it really feels like Elizabeth Moon kind of toned down everybody else’s anything and didn’t really put anything else in Paks’s way, and you know, just kind of let everybody else have a better book. [laughs] Um, in a way, so there wasn’t as much to talk about.

R: Like Paks spends - Paks spends the whole book having like a great time, and then it’s - it’s terrible for two chapters.

N: Yeah, so, and then the other part of it too, which kind of goes along with that, is that the two things we do have that are pretty major are really major and both of them have kind of a lot of layers to them. So, uh, again, spoiler warnings, or I’m sorry not spoiler warnings. Um, again, content warnings and there are gonna be some trigger warnings, are gonna be in the show notes if you haven’t taken a look at those, I would stop now, pause our podcast, and do that first before listening. Um, if um - so, that being said, let’s get into our first topic.


Topic 1: Duke Phelan - Loss of Identity. Begins at (3:36), CW for loss of identity, death.

R: With Duke Phelan, the first time he really lost his identity is when he was literally kidnapped as a child, and the second time was when his wife and children were killed and so he kind of again lost the stuff that was giving him his sense of self, and so we’re talking about those two big events.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: And then the third time uh, was our plot twist, um, when he kind of rediscovers his identity as a half elf - half elven prince, and that…

R: ...I guess…

N: ...discovery…

R: ...I guess that is losing the identity he thought he had, yeah.

N: It is, it’s losing the identity he thought he had, and also it retroactively loses him a good chunk of the identity that he had kind of built and - and kind like we just said now, built and rebuilt for himself.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And he had built that identity for himself as who he was as a person twice in his - in his conscious memory that he still had access to and - and - and it’s almost like rediscovering his initial sense of identity, like kicked the majority of his life kind of out from under him. And that’s a lot. [laughs]

R: Yeah and there are several times, we mostly hear about them in a pretty short span. We find out how many there were of these, but there are several times where he wanted to swear loyalty to different groups, um specifically Falk and Gird. Um, he - he wanted to swear loyalty and wanted to be part of these groups, but felt like something was holding him back, and I think that’s important when we’re talking about identity because it kept him separate and he wasn’t able to fold into these other groups to…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...try and belong as much as he wanted to follow um, the god of the person who raised him, as he wanted to follow the god of his wife, he wasn't really ever able to establish that identity in a way that most other people around him were. Like there's a lot of people where the first thing they say about them is that they're a Falcon or a Girdsman, like that's all throughout these books, and he didn't have that very simple thing.

N: Yeah, and actually related to that, um I just want to kind of point out for - for people who might be listening to this without having read the books or in anticipation of reading the books, it's important to note that there is a - eh - eh - in within the context of the book, this is not just a “Oh something kept him tethered,” like um, in a very real tangible sense, there was a - a magical disconnect between him and - and - and kind of those things. And it's - it’s almost something where like he not - he might not remember that he had - had a different allegiance essentially, but magically there was an actual physical barrier. It wasn't just like - it's - it’s - it's not as…

R: ...It's not arbitrary.

N: No.

R: It's not just a fear like, it really was…

N: ..It really was…

R: ...something…

N: ...a thing.

R: And…

N: …[laughs] Yeah like a…

R: ...and that thing is that…

N: ...functional thing...

R: ...if he's - if he's going to be the king of Lyona he can't - he - it's better that he didn't already swear to a god, and he definitely needed to have ought - and he definitely needed to have not given his allegiance to a king. I'd put those in two different categories. The god is “better not”, the other king is “need to not”.

N: Right.

R: Um.

N: And - and both of those things he had actively set out to do and then didn't and kind of - and that's almost like - that's almost like a loss of identity of and of itself like, um just this…

R: …He keeps trying so hard to belong.

N: [laughs] He does, but - but even more than that like, you know when you - when you set out to do something and it's your plan and you're gonna do it and you're gonna make it happen and then you are the reason it doesn't because you just don't do it, that's - that's a - an emotional blow. That's a thing that you have to then handle - because you have to look at yourself and say like, “Oh all of the pieces were in place, I had set myself up. Everyone was rooting for me, we did this and the only thing that happened…

R: …why didn't I do it?”

N: …is that I turned around and walked away,” and he did that in multiple avenues, swearing allegiance to various things, being in charge of certain things, taking even certain positions or not, um, and you know there's - there's kind of this - they didn't really - didn't really explore it very much in the text, but that makes sense. There was a lot of story to get to in this book and a lot of background to kind of fill in, um…

R: …Mhmm…

N: …but there's a very real thing where, it's very rare that if something is truly just you sabotaging yourself and it's without any other factors, but this is - is really one of those. There were no functional reasons that he couldn't have done the things that he was looking for other than this - this thing that he didn't know about.

R: Yeah, and also like, the elves take it as good news…

N: [laughs]

R: …that he…

N: …Oh yeah…

R: …felt like he was held back, like…

N: …They're like, “Oh good you still care,” and he's like, “Care about what?”

R: Mmhmm.

N: “What are you talking about? I make decisions for me.” Uh, oh and that's something else too, is where like he kind of - the - we get a narrative where he makes his own decisions always and he built himself up and he made him - he - he got where he was and - in a way - in a way that does not exist for real in our world. He literally pulled…

R: …And I’d argue…

N: …himself up by his bootstraps.

R: Well I would argue that he - I think that - that kind of mythos is built up in the first two books but that's pulled down a little bit…

N: …Well that’s my point…

R: …here like…

N: …That’s my point.

R: Yeah.

N: That's part of what he had kind of centered his identity on is that - is that he - he did this all by himself in a way that even in these books it's pointed out very few…

R: …He didn’t…

N: ...people are able to, and it's kind of not a thing and he was proud of himself for being that thing and then he finds out, no actually you didn't do that, and…

R: …I would argue that that's very much like the real world examples ‘cause almost always you find out that no, uh they didn't.

(9:34)

N: Right.

R: …But uh but…

N: …but usually they know…

R: …setting that aside…

N: …or - or - or at least have the…

R: …yeah, well…

N: …you know, or at least it’s super obvious it’s not, you know.

R: Yeah, well in this case I would argue that some of it was - to those who had known him as a kid like, that he was taken in the way he was and by whom and how he was trained, like he was put in positions to have these - eh to have as many advantages as someone literally on the run in what was kind of newly a foreign country for him, like yes it's where he was from but his memories were formed somewhere else.

N: Yeah.

R: And so he - he finds himself like a stranger in what ought to have been his country and then someone takes him in, and that's…

N: …Yeah…

R: …that's gonna be a weird feeling.

N: [laughs] Yeah.

R: [laughs] Like he knows he's from here and there - there's even a bit where he's - he - he talks about having been like so excited the first time that he met someone who name - whose name is Kiri and then finds out that that's - that's like him being named John…

N: …Yeah…

R: …like.

N: Yeah he had no context for like…

R: …It’s…

N: …anything.

R: Doesn't tell him anything, yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: I don't know it's like that's one of those names that means plow in like five lang - like…

N: [laughs]

R: …there are names like that…

N: …Yeah…

R: …where like not only is it in a bunch of languages, it means the same thing in all those languages, and if that's all you know it's useless.

N: It’s the equivalent of your first or last name being Smith, like yes, pretty much every culture around the world at some point discovered like, smithery and had some kind of designation that - that meant that you worked and with metal and shaped metal and like, you know being super excited because you - you have no memory and you find out your last name is Smith and that's gotta mean something and then you look it up and you're like, “Oh well…

R: …No…

N: …that's useless…

R: …yeah, never mind.

N: And - and actually…

R: Yeah because his - his first name is common, his last name is common.

N: That's…

R: …Common enough…

N: …Right…

R: …at least.

N: That's actually something I think is important to note too, is that he spent time trying to figure out who he was. He didn't just…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …say “Oh well I don't know, I'm just going to build a life for myself.” He built a life for himself and didn't - like he - he also tried to discover who he had been, and then gave up.

R: Mmhmm.

N: He gave up he moved…

R: …Oh, thinking…

N: …on…

R: …about - thinking about how early in the books this is seated too where like…

N: …Oh yeah…

R: …Paks picks green and gold to wear and they're suspicious because those are the color of Leona and she's like “They're just the colors of my duke.”

N: Yeah.

R: Uh.

N: Oh - oh yeah reading this book - I will - to be honest I don't remember the difference between reading it the first time and the second time because I was a very small child. I read these books a lot before the age of eight, but um, it is…

R: …Don't give them to your eight-year-old.

N: Oh Robin, no I know.

R: Niki - Niki…

N: I know I know, but um, it - it is really interesting when you - when you know what happens in this third book to go back and I think Elizabeth Moon - I mean she does this in general uh with the - those of her series that I've read, she does a very very good job at foreshadowing without it feeling like foreshadowing. Like there's a lot of authors who, they kind of lay in - lay it on thick and so you as a reader - or they - or they put it in, in a way where it's kind of almost like a nudge to the reader like, “Hey, that one's important,” and - and…

R: …Well she…

N: …Elizabeth Moon…

R: …actually does some of that because she has “Paks felt like she ought to pay attention to this conversation”...

N: …but that’s…

R: … like she…

N: …but that’s very different…

R: …has several of those.

N: She does have several of those, but those are like - those are not - those are not us noticing as a reader separate from the character noticing.

R: Oh yeah.

N: That's what I'm talking about. Like, there's a lot in a lot of especially YA books, there's a lot of like, “Hey, you as a reader, check this thing out. The characters don't know, it's our little secret. We'll tell you in book three.” That doesn't happen in…

R: Yeah, she doesn’t do that…

N: …in this series at all. [laughs] Um, like Paks gets hints when we get hints but then when you go back and read them like there's a lot of stuff.

R: There's so many more.

N: There’s just so much stuff.

R: There's so many hints to this. There's so many hints to this reveal all throughout the first and second books.

N: I would argue with that…

R: …And even the first half…

N: …they're not even in…

R: …of this one…

N: …I think they're just world building, I think they're just backstory that we're just getting naturally and then it feels that - because then this reveal doesn't feel shoehorned in, because you're like “Oh, all of…

R: …It - it feels…

N: …we knew this…

R: …inevitable and…

N: …already…

R: …like.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah, feels inevitable and really cool.

N: Mmhmm.

R: It's like, “Oh, this is happening,” and even such a simple thing with his name being Artifielan…

N: …Yeah right, like that…

R: …it's got like an f and then he's going by Phalen with a ph, um.

N: Yeah.

R: Just even something simple like that.

Topic 2: Paksenarrion - Physical Torture. Begins at (14:30), CW for physical torture, emotional torture, sexual assault, graphic descriptions and discussion.

R: Alright, moving on to Paksenarrion.

N: So, uh just - again just in case some of you are - didn't look at our show notes um, or got this far to uh, kind of see what we were talking about, we just want to put in a - uh, more of a trigger warning more extreme than a content warning for um, discussion of rape, physical torture, emotional torture, explicit graphic detail of um physical tortures and rape inflicted on - on our protagonist. Um.

R: Yeah.

N: I’m sure we'll have more than that in our show notes but just…

R: …Those are the basics…

N: …the big ideas. [laughs]

R: Yeah. So, this comes very suddenly as the most graphic thing in the entire trilogy. There's a lot of mood whiplash. It goes from like the highest point in the series to this absolute low. Um, it echoes the kind of jump that happened to book one with the assault and ban, but it's a much bigger swing.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And this really was an entire book where like everything's going right and then it comes crashing down um, and she agrees to be tortured for five days and nights in exchange for the duke and the other captives to go free.

N: Oh and not just go free but be guaranteed safety for the same time period that she was undergoing this torture.

R: Right, so they could not be touched for five days but then after that they'd be um, free game. And uh, there was some - let's just say there's some liberties taken with the… they could torture her but not kill her because someone um, we're not going to talk about much, made a bargain to get to kill her at the end of this time.

N: Yeah.

R: And then only didn't get to because someone else um, killed them while Paks was still out. Um, so even the strict legalese of “You'll be - you'll be…

N: …Well it’s - it’s you won’t be killed…

R: …in a lot of pain…

N: …you won't be killed for these five days,”

R: Right.

N: And the other person was basically like “Alright, five days and one minute, let's go…”

R: Yep.

N: “...I get the honor and,” yeah.

R: Yeah and this - [sighs] this is like a - it's a self-sacrifice but it's kind of more - it - it - it naturally comes out of her like soldier, body - bodyguard mentality where like, not treating her body as her own because her purpose is to save somebody else.

N: Well and it's - it's more than just not - I don't - I think it's more than just not treating her body as her own. It's…

R: …Oh no, no…

N: …she- her body is her own…

R: …It’s more than that, it’s a component…

N: …she decides that she is placing that body in between someone else and harm's way and…

R: …Oh yeah, like her whole journey as a paladin is about choosing…

N: …Yeah…

R: …when to sacrifice herself and when to be on the line, and not, um so - no it's not wanton sacrifice.

N: No, it's - it’s very deliberate. It's very “I am a physical shield between this person and the harm that's coming at them”, and it - it really is in a metaphorical sense kind of - and I’m sure this is the - the point [laughs]. In a metaphorical…

R: …Yeah…

N: …sense it's kind of the culmination of her - her journey to that - that - that status of um - of being not just a soldier not just a person who stands it - as a guard between others and harm, but explicitly through becoming a paladin and through - and then - again this is kind of the ultimate without dying cons - like concept of this, just, like she is this, she is now a paladin dedicated in every sense of the word to - to doing this all the time, and then she makes essentially the “ultimate sacrifice” without actually dying in the - in this form of this torture and it's just a - it's a very, very extreme version of what she has deliberately done in her - almost her entire story arc.

(19:08)

R: Yeah.

N: There’s a lot…

R: …And I - I don't want…

N: …to it…

R: …there's - I don't want to have the podcast make people sick. You signed up for these content warnings but we're not gonna…

N: [laughs]

R: …like list all the stuff that happens…

N: …No, we're…

R: …to her…

N: …we’re not gonna…

R: …’cause that’s bad…

N: …we’re not gonna like describe - there's a - there's a…

R: …Naw…

N: …couple of things that I do want.

R: Like I do want to mention that she gets branded on her face. Um, and she - she when - when she - she - she does get healed, and even after she got healed it took someone else telling her what happened to the brand for her to find out that she wasn't going to spend the rest of her life with the brand of an evil god on her face, and she thought…

N: …Oh yeah…

R: …that's what was happening. It got transformed into this like, gold circle or something. They never say…

N: …Yeah…

R: …totally what it is.

N: I can google what it is [laughs]. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of art from descriptions.

R: Yeah but it - it - it basically turns it into the circle. I - I don't have a clear idea of whether it was a symbol…

N: …It is…

R: …of one of the gods she does…

N: …It’s…

R: …follow…

N: …it’s - it’s…

R: …which one do you know?…

N: I think it's the symbol of the…

R: Is it the High Lord or someone else?

N: It’s either the High Lord or it's the gods as a collective.

R: Okay.

N: It's one of the two.

R: All of them…

N: …I’ll have to…

R: …together?

N: Yeah, I would have to - I would have to actually…

R: …‘Cause…

N: …go back and…

R: …like maybe one of the later…

N: …check…

R: …books will say it but I don't think this one does say it. But the main point being…

N: …Yeah…

R: …she - she gets branded, they show her what the brand is going to look like. Like they show the iron before they put it on her face and then she does find out that instead she has this like golden holy symbol on her face.

N: And…

R: …Which…

N: …for - for context I do want to kind of point out as I - as I have a couple of times in these episodes but just in case you know somebody, like you skipped a section, like there's a lot in these books where unlike our real world, um, the gods in the books are extremely present and physical, uh good and evil and all in between.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And so for somebody to go around with a brand of an evil god on their face, um regardless of your own affiliation, that immediately…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …makes you first off a target for anyone who does not follow those gods and doesn't know why it's there.

R: Right.

N: And…

R: …It's the kind of thing…

N: …it also…

R: …that someone trying to follow that god might get voluntarily.

N: Mmmm, no?

R: Um. well…

N: That's not how I read it. I - I i would see it as a - as a…

R: Not on the face, no.

N: Not on the face but…

R: …Caring…

N: …putting it on the face looks to me like it's placing a target on her for followers of that god.

R: Oh.

N: That's…

R: …Oh that’s a good point…

N: …how I read it is that it was - it's a very obvious symbol that would place a target on her for people who don't follow the god because if you don't know why it's on her face, all you're going to see is this evil symbol. But if you do follow the god you're going to know that putting it on her face didn’t - means that she didn't put it there…

R: …And…

N: …and you should go after her. And it's - it's…

R: …Well…

N: … literally…

R: …people might…

N: …making a target on her back.

R: People might know she didn't put on her face ‘cause remember there's um - this is not the first face branding in this series.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Uh.

N: Well that's what I'm saying…

R: …There - because there was…

N: …that's my whole point.

R: I was going to say there - there was the - there was the one in book one with the the coward’s…

N: …__…

R: …brand.

N: Yep.

R: Um and I - I think that as we're talking about how like the sudden jump from like a very much of a high to very much of a low echoes that earlier section.

N: Mmhmm.

R: It is totally intentional…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …um for this to mirror and for - at the end of this ordeal for her to be branded because it is towards the end of the ordeal. Not like…

N: …Oh yeah…

R: …the very end but close to it.

N: Yeah, narratively it's towards the end [laughs]

R: Yeah narratively it's towards the end. Um speaking of the narrative they, for some like - this alternates between kind of like “And then they tortured her a lot,” and listing very specific things and talking about burning flesh like, it's got like a lot of wild swings bet - but like this is the - when we say the most graphic thing in this series we're - we're not saying it's just a little bit more graphic than anything else. We're saying…

N: …No this is…

R: …I…

N: …this is super…

R: …I…

N: …graphic in general.

R: The only reason this isn't torture porn is because there isn't enough description to get into that.

N: Well…

R: …Like…

N: …I mean and…

R: …that’s…

N: …intent behind it is not to glorify it. The intent behind it…

R: …Yeah.

N: And - and like reading it as a story like, that's the other thing with - with the torture porn category where, like the in - the intent a lot of times is to make the reader enjoy reading it and this is very much written in a way that makes you - it - it - it makes you recoil because it's so awful, and that's, you know, it's - it’s - it's not done in a way that's an art.

(24:03)

N: It's - it's very much…

R: …Yeah…

N: ...just brutal and - and awful um.

R: Yeah.

N: But there's - there's a lot of…

R: …Um…

N: …graphic - there's a lot of graphic description um, and this is going to be an interesting one to review [laughs], actually when we get to our wrap up or an interesting one…

R: …Yeah…

N: …to rate, but there's just like, um, with the mood or…

R: …Well…

N: …Oh I remember with the mood whiplash.

R: Uh huh.

N: Um, with the mood whiplash, so - I think that the - kind of what you were talking about like the parallels between the - book one and - and this book, I think there's - I think there's a lot of - there's a lot of intentional parallel even with just - even with just - just the - or - or uh, contrary jux - juxtaposition also, um you know we had kind of talked about like the use - like how in - in this book she essentially signed up for this so to speak, um where in the first book it was very much a thing that just happened to her, that was done to her without her knowing it was going to happen or knowing even what was happening as it happened really. Um, um, whereas like but in - in both sections rape or the threat of rape was a part of it. Um, in both segments uh, like Robin said a forehead brand. Both segments had kind of some descriptions of especially things like whips and - and other - other injuries and - and pain, um.

R: Oh, and - and the - the shaving too.

N: Oh yeah, shaving too. And they actually explicitly referenced in…

R: …Yeah the Tinsi Turin…

N: …yeah. They - they mentioned that. They're like, “You're - you know - you - you know sheep right? You're familiar with this,” um, like they were very, like, it was explicitly a callback so to speak to - to this - this knowledge that we as an audience had from book one, and - and I - I think that there's - it - there's a - there's an interesting and I think very well done kind of set up where you have in the first book you have kind of - you're given kind of a cultural background to a lot of things, a lot of pieces of - of what happened in that scene where you're not given a cultural background in this one, but this is also the more extreme one where you're just kind of reading through the scene, because you already as a reader, you already know the significance of things like that facial brand. You've been handed that information already in a less extreme, less immersive context.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, and things like Tinsi Turin like knowing that means “shorn all over” like, that you - you know that already because you've already been told, and so you as a reader don't have to kind of stop and think like “What? What are they talking about? What do they mean?” Like you - it's just part of the world building. It's just part of you knowing what's…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …going on.

R: And it makes sense for it to have been explained to her initially because, you know, she hasn't been in the army before probably hasn't seen a branding like this, like they wouldn't have been - like the people in the army wouldn't assume that she'd been exposed to this in her village.

N: Yeah.

R: But then…

N: …Yeah…

R: …like the people of Liart are not going to just be…

N: [laughs]

R: …like, “So this is a custom and you know how face branding is like uh, distressful - distressing…

N: [laughs] Yeah, like your - your tor - your personal torturers don't - your personal torturers don't explicitly explain…

R: …Nah…

N: …your own cultural background to you, like, that's not a thing. [laughs] Um, but the country girl who's never come off the farm and then witnesses like this thing in a new environment like yeah, absolutely you'd get context for that.

Topic 3: Paksenarrion - Coercion. Begins at (27:45), CW for physical torture, emotional torture, sexual assault, graphic descriptions and discussion, discussion of coercion, discussion of consent.

N: So the way that I saw this scene and the use of the word consent was I saw it as a very important - um, important language because the way it was used and - and when it was used was when Paks was pushing back on people who were essentially trying to tell her that she shouldn't have - she shouldn't have volunteered, she shouldn't have done what she did, she shouldn't have swapped herself in for the duke, she should not have - have taken such a risk or put herself in that position or, um you know been the - the - the naive um, the naive sacrifice just walking in thinking it'll all be fine, and she was pushing back. The way I read it was that she was pushing back pretty hard because she knew what she was doing. Like she might have been forced into making a decision but she made the decision that she made knowing full well what it was going to entail, and she might not have been able to like list out the tortures that she would have been put through ahead of time. She might not have been able to write them down on paper but she's not - she wasn't going in, in any way ignorant of how this was going to go or what it was going to be, and she intentionally made that choice with her putting literally her own body on the line to be hurt and tortured and - and raped and - and it - it - it was something that she - she signed, um the way - the way i read it was that she - she was the - the party kind of standing in for the gods that her side of the conflict followed, and so in a way this was a - an almost a magical contract that held back the evil gods that were forcing this on her, that were putting her in a position where she - she had to even make the choice, um, but she was deliberately standing - standing up in the way of of harm coming to the duke and his family and his - his people he cared about, um. And so the fact that she consented to be that shield, to be that sacrifice um, it - it was important because nobody else could - could look at her and say, “Well, you know, you're just - like you didn't know what you were doing, and you just - you shouldn't have been there, and you should have, you know, you should have known better essentially,” and she essentially said, “No, like I knew what I was doing. You don't get to take that away from me.”

R: Where I had an issue with the language was more that throughout the torture they reminded her that she consented to it, and she had it for herself as kind of a mental shield. And I understand it working as a mental shield because, she kind of had the perspective of ‘this is just a thing that's happening to my body’, and she didn't totally like disassociate from her body. Like she - she definitely did not, but there is kind of um, like a separation and maybe a little bit of a - definitely separation, I was going to say aloofness but that's not quite the right word, but there is a - there is a separation kind of an aboveness of “I - I can get through this. This is happening to my shell,” a little bit sort of a feeling, and I definitely had like a very like visceral reaction of like, coerced consent is not consent, and I did not like that Liart's people were saying “Remember you consented to this. You signed up for this,” and especially when one of like the big things that happened is that she's a virgin who gets raped like, when that's kind of it, like the end of the five days um, having the word consent used and used against her definitely uh, bothered me, not in a way like it shouldn't have been in the book, because like it makes sense in the book, and also this is - is written in like the late 80s early 90s and so the word consent might not have had all of the things that it does now, that for me are very bundled up in it um, but it definitely - it - it definitely felt very squicky for while she was being tortured to have people reminded - reminding her that she consented to the torture.

(33:00)

R: Not in the sense that I wanted any agency removed from her but that I was uh, upset that the evil people were saying, “Hey look, we're not the ones responsible for all this evil, you brought it on yourself by saying yes,” and that's them dodging their agency by putting it on her because she consented, but still it was - it was a thing that was bothersome to read even if it's the right thing for the book. Um, so that - that was kind of my initial take, I definitely focused more on consent as a word during the torture and not in the aftermath and Nicole, from what you said you seemed like it was more the aftermath so…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …um, yeah that's - that's my side of that. Uh.

N: So something I just thought of {Meow}, um I think the - the throwing it in her face that she did sign up for this, because - because they're not - they're not wrong but also like, I think the pushing it at her like that was a - was just more of the mental torture aspect of it, um. And - and to be clear because we kind of talked about this ahead of time too like, we're both in agreement that this is not a condemnation on Elizabeth Moon. This is very much a very super good representation of like worshipers of an evil god and Liart is literally the god of torture. That's his thing [laughs] in these books like, that is his realm - his realm. He - he excels in causing pain. He's - he is the master of torments is his official like - like title. Um, and so it makes a hundred percent sense in - in context of the book that - that in this scene there would be every avenue possible including - including um intentional, essentially guilt for what she's going through.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But it is…

R: …And pointing out you didn't have to be here, you didn't have to do this.

N: Right, right, right, right. Like I think that - that almost victim blaming is intentional, um, because it is the point and the focus of that particular deity and - and what he excels at.

R: Oh yeah.

N: Um so you know.

R: Yeah.

N: We're not - we're not saying Elizabeth Moon did something that wasn't good, it - it's literally just a…

R: …But we wanna say…

N: …it's a super good representation of an evil god. [laughs] It's very well done.

R: But we do wanna say this has like emotional torture and victim blaming during torture, that's a thing in this book, take care of yourselves. Um, they also did like this weird bad trick by either lying about whether or not they had other people already captured or capturing other people after technically not having anybody else and then just going and grabbing people um, because part of the torture that happens is that she's told ”Hey, look at us torturing this person in front of you. If you like do this particular thing or let us go after your duke,” or whatever it was, “then we will stop torturing this other person,” and they try to - they try to get her to take that on as something that's her fault, and she's like “You might be lying, like I could give in and then you'd still torture this person anyway like i'm not actually in control, you don't get to put that on me.”

N: Yeah, and I actually personally - so as rough - um, as refereed as it is I actually personally feel like that particular representation of someone saying, “You have to take responsibility for this thing that I'm doing,” and having a person uh, literally who did actually sign up for some of the things that are happening and - and agree to be in the position to be - to be hurt and - and specifically agreed to not fight back and not get out of it and not leave and not defend herself, having - having this - this attempt at shame and humiliation and she looks at them and basically says like, “No. No, you don't - you don't get to decide that that's my fault.,” and I think that that's a very, very good - good thing to have in there. Like, as - as - as not good as it is that they - that they were hurting somebody else, um I think it was a really good juxtaposition where it kind of got to show like what she was and wasn't in control of in herself. I just think it was really good characterization essentially. I think it was a really good like narrative and a really good moment where she kind of like metaphorically and - and verbally, you know, kind of throws off their power and essentially says like, “No, you can do these things to me that you've agreed, to but if you do any - that I’ve agreed to, but if you do anything to somebody else that has nothing to do with me, that's your - like you're doing that so take - take ownership of yourself,” essentially and they're like, “No, it's all your fault and you have to feel bad,” and she's like, “No I don't.”

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (38:30).

R: Moving on to our wrap up and ratings.

R: Our gratuity rating, for Duke Phelan, I think it is backstory to, either mild or moderate.

N: Um, I would…

R: I think moderate probably because it - it - there's a little bit of um - there's a little bit of graphic detail around some deaths associated with the main topic.

N: Oh and like actual events.

R: Yeah. Yeah.

N: Um, okay.

R: Like the actual…

N: …That makes sense…

R: …the actual - the actual identity loss is backstory and mild…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …Uh…

N: …but like the actual things that they talk about in the book are a little bit more moderate, I think you're right.

R:Ye - yep.

(39:34)

N: Um Paks. [laughs] severe.

R: Uh, it's severe.

N: Severe…

R: …And…

N: …and on-screen.

R: It's severe, it's on screen, and the only thing that stops it for being torture porn is that the perspective steps back to be her being aware of what's going on in some spots without there being all of the detail, but it alternates wildly with extremely graphic sections.

N: Well and it's really just like - it's - it's all - it's also only stopped being torture porn because of the - the - the context and the framing of what is going on.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like…

R: …It’s - it’s…

N: …verbal framing of particular scenes and also just like framing of what is happening, like it's - it's framed in a negative light, it's not framed in like a…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …fascinating light.

R: It's framed in more of the like brutal physical details of what's going on.

N: Right.

R: Um, torture porn probably would have more of like her emotional reaction.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, and that's there, but not in a voyeuristic way.

N: Right or it - or even like you're just saying just now like more voyeuristic descriptive words…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …like words to be consumed by the - the reader which this scene does not have.

R: Yeah, uh, it's very stark.

R: Uh, for the Duke the trauma is integral to the plot.

N: Yup.

R: Um, just straight up.

N: It is the plot.

R: It's the backbone of the…

N: …It’s the secret plot…

R: …trilogy.It is the plot of this - of the book.

(41:19)

N: Um Paks?

R: For Paks.

N:I think this is interchangeable.

R:Ooh yes, that is - oh yeah that is what I was going to say. Um you could have done something else and…

N: …Yeah…

R: …also the events are isolated to, it might be a single chapter, it might be as many as two…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …but it's a very, very small chunk of time…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …um it - {Static} in terms of like trilogy story structure…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …it has some {Static} resonance as we talk {Static} about uh, in our detail, but yeah. you could excise that section {Static}…

N: …But it is…

R: … and leave the story intact.

N: Well, you…

R: …You could…

N: …You…

R: …You could…

N: …You can’t totally…

R: …excise it..

N: … excise it. You - you would need something…

R: …excise it and have…

N: …Yeah…

R: …You could excise it and have a different ending, leaving 95% of the story intact. You could swap it out for something else and leave a 100% of the - of the rest of the story intact.

N: Um, but it - yeah. But like for her personal narrative there had to be something, and - and also we talked about it a little bit of this in this section but this is - there are some very good parallels to other things that happen in the series in a way where it's just very well done, and it's done in a way that doesn't feel like it was just shoved in to exist. It feels like it's a continuation of her growth as a character, and, yeah. It's - it's important. It's just not - it's just not the plot. [laughs]

R: Yeah, it's - it's very important, it does a lot of heavy lifting and important work, but that lifting could have been done by something else…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …pretty easily. It would - just would have meant something a little bit different and that's okay.

N: Yeah.

(43:09)

R: Uh for the trauma being treated with care, for the duke, so much care. Uh, like, uh, there's - like [sighs]. There - a lot of the language like dances around some of the ideas of - and we - we didn't even - it was danced around with so much care that the things I wish I could mention now we didn't get to talk about in our section…

N: [laughs]

R: …because they were so far away from what happened, um. Yeah, just a lot of care and with um - with the event slowly unfolding throughout the book so delicately, and even more delicately for the trilogy. Um, you agree?

N: Oh yeah, definitely.

N: Um.

R: Uh.

N: This is - this is going to be a tricky one. [sighs] So talking about - about…

R: [sighs]

N: …uh what all that Paks went through in that - that extended scene.

R: I think that it alternates between enough care and deliberate callousness. It is - it is - it's artfully placed, but it is not gentle.

N: That's a really good…

R: It's there…

N: …that’s - that’s…

R: …to hit specific…

N: …Yeah…

R: …notes that feel bad…

N: …I - I…

R: …for a very specific amount of time.

N: I think - so, I think because those notes are there we have to put this at not enough.

R: Okay.

N: Um, because I think if…

R: …There becomes a point where if this is your topic there is not enough care.

N: Yeah, like there's no way to have it be enough care and still have it be what you need the scene to be or be the story that you're telling, and I…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …think especially given all of the necessarily graphic things that this has, I think that it is by definition not enough but also I think it's going to be one of the - I think it is one of those where if it was enough, it wouldn't - it would then no longer be necessary because it's not the scene anymore and it's not doing what it's supposed to do, and…

R: …Yeah…

N: …so, yeah. I don't - I - I think Robin's right, I don't think it was - I think it was deliberate callousness when necessary, which means that it wasn't - it's not that it just wasn't handled with care, like it absolutely was, but I think it was, like the bare minimum. [laughs]

R: Mmhmm.

N: Or - I'm sorry, it was the - it was the maximum allowed which leaves a lot of very painful things.

R: Yep.

N: So, not enough…

R: …Uh…

N: …but it's okay.

R: Yeah. It's - we heartily recommend the book with a bunch of trigger warnings, please take care of yourselves. Uh,and those…

N: …Point of View…

R: …can be found in the show notes.

(46:24)

R: Point of view for Phelan. Uh, so, we have him describing things, but we also have a lot of other people piecing together what's going on. The point of view is very distant from him.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um it gets - it's not until the very, very end that we have his perspective directly on this trauma. Um.

N: I'm - I'm writing this down as group/splintered/full-on.

R: Yeah.

N: ‘Cause it - it - it really is a - it - this is a literal thing of like, it's some - it's things that happened in the past that are getting kind of pieced together by a - by a - a lot of different viewpoints from a lot of different people and, I mean it's…

R: …Also you…

N: …it's the character discovering…

R: …you're calling him…

N: …it…

R: …Fallon. You're calling him Fallon, I call him Phelan.

N: That is how…

R: …It’s…

N: …you pronounce it but also you and I pronounce most names in this series differently from each other.

R: Well his - the elven bit of his name is Artiphelan.

N: Artifallon…

R: …but uh…

N: …that's how I read that.

R: Um, I - yeah. so I'm just saying, listeners when uh she says uh, Fallon and I say Phelan, we mean the same person.

N: I think they'll figure it out. We - we differ on our…

R: …Yeah…

N: …pronunciation enough [laughs] in this show. Yeah, group splintered, kind of get - well and I think for the - for the aftermath, I think we can call the aftermath like once he knows what's going on essentially.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, and I - I think that's mostly him.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, enough for us to say it was him because he kind of - we're watching him figure this thing out that happened to him and then once he has all the pieces, he puts it together, and then…

R: …Yeah…

N: …pretty much for the rest of the story, anytime anybody needs an opinion on it we do actually hear him voicing his opinion and I think that that's enough to say that the aftermath is from his point of view, because even when another character is asking for it he's the - he's the voice that we get. Um, but - but that had to come after everybody else filled him in essentially.

(48:49)

N: Point of view of the trauma. This is an interesting one. It's pretty cut and dried though.

R: Did you just jump to Paks, or are you still talking about Phelan?

N: Oh, Paks sorry.

R: Okay, alright.

N: Um, point of view of the actual trauma, we pretty much just get Paks.

R: It alternates from like hovering in the room…

N: …[sighs] Yeah, but that's not…

R: …and…

N: …that's more like…

R: …her thoughts. Most of the book is like that, but…

N: …Yeah, most of it…

R: …it - it…

N: …I - I feel like…

R: …We don’t…

N: …I feel like that's like the - that's like the camera aerial view shot, it's not necessarily like a different person's point of view.

R: Right but I just - I more meant we don't spend the entire time of this thing in her head.

N: That's true…

R: …That's more of what I…

N: …but when we're…

R: …wanted to say…

N: …talking about like - okay. I - I just - when we're talking about like point of view of what's happening like, what we're getting is her point of view.

R: Yeah.

N: Like we're not…

R: …We’re getting…

N: …we’re not…

R: …we’re getting…

N: …getting another person's point of view.

R: No we're - we’re definitely getting her point of view, we just don't always have her train of thought, and given…

N: …Right…

R: …the nature of the trauma I did want to distinguish those two.

N: Oh okay.

R: Um because it's a fair - it would be a very different reading experience if we had…

N: [laughs]

R: …her running commentary the entire time…

N: …[laughs] Oh yeah…

R: …and not just very deliberately placed.

N: That would - that would kick or - kick it from not enough care into zero care.

R: Exactly.

N: Yeah.

R: That's - that's why I wanted to bring that up.

N: Okay, I gotcha. Um point of view of the aftermath. Um, we actually mostly get…

R: …We mostly get her…

N: …rescuer.

R: Oh yes, her rescuer, yeah. It's…

N: …I'm not going to say who that is because that is a spoiler, so.

R: That's a spoiler. Um, we have - well, yeah. I was going to quibble over rescuer or person there when she woke up, but I forgot how she could woke up - wake up, so.

N: Definitely rescuer.

R: Yep, rescuer. Um, we - we don't get any of what happened while she was asleep, I don't think. Um, so…

N: …Well we have kind…

R: …it is…

N: …of a time hop, but that's like narratively - we don't - we don't get…

R: …Well yeah…

N: …like a - we don't get like a page of, “...and the rescuer…

R: …I more meant that…

N: …checked if she was awake yet.”

R: Yeah, that - we don't get the - we don’t get the rescuers train of thought but we do get their discussion of what happened. Um, we don't get inside their head but we do get um, a lot of their impressions because they do talk about it afterwards.

N: Mmhmm {meow}, and we also get a kind of a - a - a - a scene description {Meow intensifies} of what - what happens a little bit.

R: Mmhmm.

N: The Assistant - the Junior Assistant editor is checking in to make sure that we're doing this alright, um.

R: I think that's it.

N: Oh, well.

R: For those ratings, did you have anything else?

N: I mean we have to do the rest of our rating.

R: Well, I…

N: …that's about it…

R: …don’t consider the writer tip…

N: …for our…

R: …to be…

N: …discussion, yeah.

R: Yeah, I don't consider the writer tip to be a rating.

N: That’s fair.

(51:57)

R: Uh what is the aspiring writer tip?

N: Um.

R: I mean talking off of um, Paks's thing, I would say it's - it's okay to let bad things happen to your characters.

N: [laughs]

R: It's okay to tell us about them.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: Yeah that's - yeah, that's fair.

R: Yeah, I - I do appreciate that it was not voyeuristic.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um.

N: Mmhmm. Oh, that's - that's actually a good thing to kind of - like it's okay to have bad things happen and also it's possible to describe them in very graphic detail without it being glorifying.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And that's - it's hard to do but it's - you can - you can…

R: …Yeah…

N: …do it. It's very, very…

R: …There’s notes…

N: …possible.

R: There's notes where you get the turn of other people liking it and then hating it all within the scene.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, it's just - it's very well done.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, yeah. I mean if - if based on the content warnings you don't think you could handle this book, I would just suggest skipping those chapters and reading the rest of it. It's that isolated.

N: Yeah, yeah like - and - and it doesn't…

R: …That’s totally possible to…

N: …get…

R: …do.

N: And it's - there's a couple times where it is kind of referenced back to as a “What? I thought you were going through this thing,” but there's no - no detail in those - those references at all.

R: Or at least not enough to be traumatic, just very briefly. About the level of our content warnings.

N: Yeah, actually. [laughs] Um, and and I would say that um, you know even, if you're - I think we kind of might have said this in this series even already but, if this is something that you want to read but you don't want to try and - you don't want to accidentally come across it or not know when it ends or whatever like, you can even email us or message us and say “Hey, looking at Paksenarrion. What are the - the chapters what are the,” you know, in your edition. “What pages?”

R: “Where should I skip?” Yeah.

N: “Where should I pick it back up once I get to this thing,” and…

R: …Yep…

N: …we’ll, you know. Or - or you can even google it. I'm sure there's a - a guide on the internet somewhere…

R: …Just…

N: …on how to do…

R: …Just…

N: …that. Um, this book is old enough for that, for sure.

R: Yeah.

(54:16)

R: Alright. Favorite non-traumatic thing about the book.

N: You wanna go first or second because I’ve got mine.

R: If you have yours go first.

N: My…

R: …I got to think…

N: …my favorite non-traumatic thing is the character who started out in the second book and then kind of made his way into the third book, Arvid the assassin.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, I - I really like him as a character. I really like the way he is characterized. Um, I really like a lot of things. Well he's a thief. I'm sorry, he's not an assassin, he's a thief, um.

R: Whoa.

N: He only - he only kills when necessary, no. He um…

R: …He was in the thieves guild but doesn't he say he's not a thief too?

N: He does. [laughs] No, but - but Arvid is - is - he's just a really cool example of kind of a more stereotypical, um, chaotic neutral, serving masters who are maybe more on the evil side or - or not. We're not actually sure. We're not actually given enough detail to know, but kind of a more classic Dnd chaotic neutral um, but he - he does things for himself and because his guild has asked them of him. He doesn't do them um, just to arbitrarily cause pain. Um but he also doesn't do things to arbitrarily cause uh, healing and health, so. But I just - I just really like the way he's written and I think he's - he's fun to read.

R: Uh, my favorite non-traumatic thing is Paks's horse.

N: Robin you can't do the…

R: …Paks’s horse…

N: …same thing twice.

R: But it's a different horse.

N: Uhhh.

R: It's a different horse.

N: Okay, sure. [laughs]

R: Uh either that or - okay, okay. My non-horse…

N: …[laughs] You’re non-horse…

R: …here…

N: …thing.

R: Favorite - but this is a magic horse um, alright I - I - I had a…

N: …No that’s true…

R: …sneaky feeling that I had…

N: …That’s true, that’s true…

R: …done one of these previously.

N: You did.

R: It is a different horse. Okay.

N: It is - it is a different horse…

R: …So…

N: …but also is it really a horse?

R: It's a horse.

N: Are you sure?

R: It's a magic horse. Okay, so - so separate from the magic horse…

N: [laughs]

R: …my other favorite thing is how uh, they're like “Yeah, oh we can't wear swords uh, in Duke Phelan's house, because then people who we really don't want to have swords can't object,” and I'm like, that is a good strategy.

N: [laughs]

R: I like that. That's a fun thing.

N: [laughs]

R: It's just a fun - it's just a fun detail.

N: [laughs] It's just funny, yeah. It's good.

R: Yeah, cool detail, nice thing. Um, I really appreciated it, but - but really my favorite thing is the horse. She has a different amazing horse in every single book. It's great.

N: That's true. She does kind of rotate horses with her books.

R: She has Star in book one, Socks…

N: …Yeah…

R: …in book two and the unnamed red horse in book three.

N: The chestnut, um, yeah.

R: Alright, uh I think that's it. Thank you so much for joining us and we will catch you in two weeks.

Outro: Begins at 58:01.

[Musical Interlude]

R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.

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R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.