The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms
Series 5 Episode 1
Book 1 of The Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:03)
R: Hello everyone! Since this is either a highlight, a stand-alone book, or the first episode in a series, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, we do not read books about real people, and we are not reading historical fiction. The second rule is that we are basing our analyses off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, nor the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (1:04-1:30)
Plot Synopsis (1:31-1:38)
N: The “Hundred Thousand Kingdoms” by N. K. Jemisin is a book about coming of age and a protagonist who shapes her own power and destiny.
Factions (1:38-2:09)
N: Hi I'm Nicole.
R: And I'm Robin, and today we're discussing the “Hundred Thousand Kingdoms” by N. K. Jemisin. For our factions we have: Yeine Darr, we have the Arameri, there are several of them, we have Dekarta, Relad, Scimina, Viraine, T’vril, Kinneth, and Ygreth. Then for gods and godlings, we have Itempas, Nahadoth, Enefa, and Sieh.
Topic 1: Enslavement and Constraint. Begins at (1:30), CW for enslavement, incest mention, "one drop rule" mention, torture, death, description of magical disembowelment, visceral description of physical torture.
R: For the minor character spotlight, we are bundling together a couple of characters going from the least dramatic to the most dramatic, uh, dramatic and traumatic, um depictions of enslavement and various forms of constraint, in a negative context. Not all of these are technically…
N: [laughs]
R: …enslavement, but they're on the same scale and they all are distressing and traumatic…
N: …Well…
R: …and so…
N: …I would go as far as to say maybe they are because every…
R: …that’s that maybe.
N: Well uh, I - I think - I think it depends on whether you consider the - the family as government owning everyone on their little…
R: Right because if they're…
N: …because…
R: …a family…
N: …they do…
R: …then a lot of families demand things out of family members that they wouldn't demand out of other people, and if you look at them as the government, yeah it's enslavement no question. N: But that's the thing is I don't - I don't think it's - I don't think you can separate the two. I think the family is the government and higher ranking members of the family have enslaved the lower ranking members and treat them as property.
R: Well, okay then everybody on this scale is in some kind of enslavement.
N: Yeah I - I think it really is, because the way it - the way that it is portrayed in the text, there is no such thing as saying no if someone has…
R: …Oh yeah…
N: …a - a higher rank tattoo than yours and the people that have full circles do whatever they want with whoever they want, and treat everyone else as an object created to serve them. Like that is how they act.
R: And we do learn that even the people who are in the family but are not called the Sky that's part of a strategy in order to keep generating more members of the family who can be called to sky so, yeah, okay. I agree with your assessment that everybody on this spectrum is in some type of enslavement. So our first person, the only one whom I considered potentially not to be enslaved…
N: [laughs]
R: …though I have been convinced, is T’vril. T’vril…
N: …Yeah, ‘cause he cannot leave and he…
R: …is…
N: …has no free will. [laughs] like…
R: …Yeah…
N: …for his whole entire life.
R: Yeah I mean he has for - he can decide to do something that would make them mad and they kill him.
N: Ah, I…
R: …So in that sense he has…
N: …Yeah okay, sure.
R: Yeah.
N: [laughs]
R: Sorry I…
N: …but that - that - but that has no, yeah but that's…
R: …Alright…
N: …not…
R: In a philosophical sense he has free will, in a practical sense it doesn't feel like it.
N: Any - any slave throughout history has the free will to do something they're not allowed to do and get killed for it though Robin.
R: Yeah.
N: That's…
R: …Oh yeah, yeah…
N: … like that doesn't mean anything.
R: Sorry, listening to too many philosophy things. You said free will and I was like, “Ah, you mean no good options,” and I will heartily agree he has no good options.
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah. So T’vril, he has to work for the family. He has a lot of responsibility but not very much power. So he has some power over people who are not - who have a lesser blood scale level than he does. And there's some like squishiness on exactly what they mean by full blood because our main character is canonically half blood. Like unless the family gets very incestuous, even full blood people…
N: …Yeah…
R: …usually are gonna be half blood so it's more like a - it's more a…
N: …I think it’s a …
R: …reco…
N: …a ruling…
R: …gnition.
N: I - this is where we get into the whole, the family is the government thing. Um, and - and you know we have not - you know - as much - I would love to. I'd love to hear the ins and outs of exactly how this is uh…
R: …Yeah…
N: …like functions, just even more details than the books give us, but the way it - it seems to be that the - the blood that the - the - the genetic code, the blood that you get by - by being born with this, the family genetics, the family line, uh is what gets you into the family but the how much - how much related [laughs] - look what whether you're half blood, or full blood, or - or what degree, what partial you get is maybe a little bit - indicated by who you're actually related to um, but really practically it's who is in power when you are given the tattoo that signifies your rank.
R: Yeah.
N: Like…
R: …You mean like um…
N: …it's a literal…
R: …__ …
N: …it's a literal magical…
R: …people’s foreheads.
(7:19)
N: Yeah. So like yeah, if you have somebody who is the lowest rank of like an eighth or - or whatever, I don't - we don't actually know what the - the lowest partial is that they - they have but, you know if that person has a child chances are that that child will get that same rank or lower, but, that's not guaranteed. Um.
R: Right.
N: So and - and our main character is canonically the grandchild of the current ruler so it would make sense that her crescent is, you know, like logically it would make sense it's either a quarter or lower. Or, you know, not - not - not ruling out uh, marrying into the family, so to speak. Um.
R: And…
N: …She would at least be half or lower except that when she didn't have a - a cres - or she didn't have a tattoo when she was born or when she was little, we don't know exactly when kids get them. Um, and so her - her grandfather who is the ruler said we're going to give you a full blood crescent now as an adult. So it's very much - it's very much a position. It's very much a choice on the on behalf of who is in charge.
R: Yeah, and we're talking about like bloods and levels and things…
N: [laughs]
R: …and I want to be clear relating to real world stuff, this is neither blood quantum, nor is it the ‘one job - drop rule’...
N: …No…
R: …but some things in this book might be uncomfortable for people who have trauma related to either of those two things.
N: Mmhmm.
R: But it's also a - a fictional, magical…
N: [laughs]
R: …exploration within this family where they have this weird set of rules where…
N: …Actually…
R: … “If you have one drop we will control you, but if you don't have enough, you don't get power.”
N: Yeah, you can't control others.
R: So it’s this - yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: So it's actually this bizarre combination of both of those, some elements of both of those real world ideas in one thing, and it's a very interesting like setup as a story to read, but, just in case anyone has like stuff related to that, this description, all these levels and percentages that we're talking about and the way the book talks about it, it could be uncomfortable so I just want to mention that.
N: Actually…
R: …’Cause there's a lot of this discussion.
N: So it's - it's not really - so it's really kind of interesting that these books have those themes.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, because the little bit that um I actually did look up this author when we were looking - when we found this series and the little bit we know of N. K. Jemisin just off of her like wikipedia page; she's an american author. She's an american author of color, and uh, she's - she has worked as a psychologist, a counseling psychologist, and part of her - like there's just an overall theme, according to the wiki, of cultural conflict and oppression in her - in her books. So she has - she's an american author of color who works as a psychologist. [laughs] It's - and so the fact that she put like this fl - this intricate, interesting take on blending those two things into her - the setup and the structure of this - this series, um, it's just really cool I think, and I think it definitely like makes sense that it would be like, those two things are something she would pull on and also like the way she uses them. Like just the - the fact that you know she's - she's worked as a counseling psychologist it cut - it makes sense that like, it - it, I don't know It makes reading - it makes reading book one make a lot of sense because it's kind of like, “Oh that's why you're - that's why you're able to like explore this weird cool twist on this thing and how it would…
R: …Oh yeah…
N: …affect people,” and it's really interesting. Um, but, yeah.
R: Yeah. It's - it's [sighs]. It's really well put together and if I didn't - it - it doesn't read like, “Oh we're gonna critique these two systems at all…
N: …No…
R: …but also…
N: …No…
R: …it definitely feels like you could completely use this as an example of critiquing those other systems. It's…
N: …Oh…
R: …Anyway…
N: I wasn't trying to say that it was - it was…
R: …Not critiquing…
N: …not it was the…
R: …Like it was…
N: …other systems. I’m just - I just think it's really interesting that the way that…
R: …It’s informed by…
N: …Yeah…
R: …maybe?
N: Yeah…
R: …Is what I mean?
N: Yeah, yeah, that's a - that's a good way of putting it. It…
R: …Yeah not…
N: …It’s not directly those two things.
R: Yeah.
N: But it's a very cool, very interesting setup. Um.
R: Yep.
N: Oh and also there's - ah - I do want to point out because we're talking about like - like half blood and full blood and like of marrying - what if you married someone else in the family and like, this - this family as the government is kind of shh - like hinted and they don't - they don't give you like a population count, but everyone who lives and works in this giant floating city called Sky, is family. There are…
R: …Yep…
N: …probably hundreds or thousands of family members. Like, we're not looking at - we're not looking at you would have to commit incest to marry into the family.
(12:38)
N: Like the family…
R: …Oh no…
N: …is the city. [laughs]
R: Yeah.
N: Like, and everyone in it so…
R: And as I mentioned previously like we are told that they have lower members of the family elsewhere so that they can marry and like bring in fresh blood…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …from outside and…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …like have, you know more - more variants.
N: [laughs]
R: Um, so this topic is [sighs] - so we've talked about some of the structure that makes this enslavement happen, but I want to make sure we get to talk about a couple of the particular people. so we've talked about T’vril. He has the very basic level of he's part of this family, and can't not be. Uh, then we have a duo. Uh, I’m okay with either talking about them separately or as a duo, we have Naha and Nahadoth.
N: I think we should talk about them as a duo because…
R: …okay…
N: …uh literally you can't talk about…
R: …it’s hard not to…
N: …one without the other.
R: Yeah. So Naha is the human body in which Nahadoth the god is constrained. So - but Naha has separate consciousness. He has separate wants desires, everything, except he is the flesh prison for a god, which means he's humiliated and tortured for things that almost all the time he didn't do. Like…
N: …Yeah…
R: …even if - even if it's like, “Oh we're doing something to you because you talked back or did this,” well maybe he talked back because he feels really terrible because he's the flesh prison for a god. Like everything comes back to he's being hurt because he is someone else's prison, and he also lives in terror of waking up and finding bodies around him. Not as a - and not in the abstract, just…
N: …No…
R: …it has happened before and he lives in terror of it happening again.
N: Mmhmm.
R: And then we have Nahadoth who is the god who was constrained by his brother god Itempas and he's trapped in flesh. He can be hurt but he won't die, and he is both completely able to kill all of them and magically constrained from hurting any of them, unless one of them tells them to kill them.
N: So the part with these two that's important to enslavement other than just their identities…
R: …Yes…
N: …is that both of them are magically constrained to obey anything that a member of the family tells them to do, and now, much like uh - uh, genie mythos, um or djinn mythos, uh or fae mythos a little bit…
R: …Uh…
N: …if you…
R: …this kind of reminded me…
N: …there's a…
R: …reminds me of the fae so much, this whole book.
N: There's - there's a very - there's a very uh, literal component here where if you tell them to do something they are perfectly fee - free to misconstrue the intent of your order and do what they really want to do if they can find a way to make it fit the letter of what you say, um, but within literal restrictions they - they have to do what they are told by members of the family, high or low. And if they're given contrary orders or contracting - contra - uh, contradicting orders um, then the person who is of a higher - higher rank uh, is the one who kind of - kind of is - gets followed.
R: And there's at least one very memorable time where this happens where Yeine asked Nahadoth to do something and he says, “I can't it would go against this order…
N: …Yeah…
R: …um, “this order from Dekarta,” who is over everything.
N: Yeah so - so yeah, that's their - they have a - I mean everybody is. Well, I guess - I guess other members of the family are - are not magically enslaved necessarily but like, these guys are magically enslaved.
R: Yeah they're magically enslaved and I just, the way they have to obey like everybody unless it contradicts someone else's orders, it's really interesting because - I’m trying to think. It’s - it's one of those like, I don't know how much their ability to want to do something else is constrained, because - like I don't - I don't know, there isn't enough here to make it super clear one way or the other.
(17:37)
Like we mostly get language when some constraints are lifted of, um, them, you know, Nahadoth being able to like be fully himself again, that like implies maybe that there might have been some like limited ability to want to be…
N: …Uh - uh…
R: …otherwise but I don't know. I - it's not nearly…
N: …I don’t know…
R: …as clear as it was with the character like say, Mogget from the “Old Kingdom”. There it was extremely clear, but, I don't know I - I hope we get more as this series goes on…
N: …Mmhmm...
R: …that I just - sorry I just started wondering about…
N: [laughs]
R: …that because when we talk about - we talk about enslavement in - in - with other books. We've talked about uh mental manipulation like, altered states of mind as forms of trauma and control, and I would be surprised if that isn't at play here.
N: Mmmm, yeah.
R: But if it is, it's not - it's not explicit and so we can't really…
N: …Like we just don't know yet.
R: If we…
N: …Find out…
R: …don’t know.
N: [laughs]
R: Yeah, but in terms of mental stuff that definitely is a constraint here, Nahadoth appears to be able to remember all 24 hours of the day and Naha only knows what's happening when he is - when the human bit is awake. He doesn't know what's happening at night when Nahadoth is in charge.
N: Mmhmm.
R: and so that - that [sighs]. It's not quite an altered cognition, it's more like…
N: …more like he's - well he describes it as just being asleep. He's just…
R: …Yeah…
N: …he's just magically asleep when Nahados is out.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, and - and Nahadoth is definitely the - like the - the one of the two of them that is in charge. Like when he is awake he is the…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …one who's like in charge of their body and doing things and um, and Naha is - is definitely the afterthought.
R: Yeah there's a lot …
N: …So…
R: …of people treating him like he is Nahadoth…
N: …Yeah…
R: …kind of? Because it was really confusing earlier in the book for me at least where I was like, “What's going on?” Didn't understand the flesh prison thing, and I was like, “Why is he only powerful as soon as it's dark? And if that's the case why are you torturing him until literally sundown? That doesn't seem
N: [laughs]
R: …smart.”
N: Yeah, there’s…
R: …That seems like a terrible…
N: [sighs]
R: …plan.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, and then - and then it made sense. Um, alright. Last enslavement bit. We have nameless guy in a pit. Um, [sighs] somehow we left this as - not somehow, I understand why, I picked this, that we have this as the most - the most dramatic in terms of the depiction in the book…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …um of these minor characters with enslavement and I want to - I want to say the description that's from the book of what's going on with this guy, uh, the state that I’m about to describe is the result after he was used for an evening's entertainment by uh, the arm - Arimeri at a party. “Take a human being, twist and stretch his limbs like clay. Add new limbs designed for god's know what purpose. Bring some of his innards out of his body yet leave them all working. Seal up his mouth and sky father, god of all gods, the worst was this; I could still see intelligence and awareness in the distorted eyes. They had not even allowed him the escape of insanity.” So, yeah. This person was - he was trapped. Base - there's magical shenanigans going on where they need him to die in order for this thing, this magical stone to be moved. But in the meantime, while he's waiting in a pit to be killed later that week, why not just torture him at this party by taking his organs out of his body but not letting him die. And then he's also constrained such that if he doesn't do the thing they want him to do then his lover will share his fate, and I don't know if that means die or if that means have all the limb and organ stretching stuff happen, and I don't think it matters which one of the two other than one of them makes me more squeamish - squeamish and the other one just makes me sad.
N: I mean, not - not spoilers, not sharing what his fate eventually is um…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …but I - I really think it's just if he won't do the thing, if he doesn't survive to do the thing they need then she will. I think that's - I think that's what it means. Now, not to say they won't torture…
R:: …I’m assuming this…
N: …her for fun, but I don't think it's like - I don't think it's necessarily…
R: …i'd assumed it was a woman and I looked at the text and it doesn't actually say the gender of the lover. Um, but…
N: …Oh…
R: …don't know either way. Yeah.
N: I didn't…
R: …I - I…
N: …I didn't remember because you had said wife earlier. [laughs]
R: Oh yeah no I - I thought it had - had said something more gendered and then it - it doesn't, uh. So - but either way uh, it would not be good for his lover.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, we don't have a lot more details about nameless pet guy other than, this is kind of sort of the upper bounds of how torturous and terrible the enslavement is within this system and within this city, where someone is already slated to die, and just for kicks at a party they do this to him.
Topic 2: Yeine - Ostracization, Isolation. Begins at (24:00), CW for ostracization, death, abandonment.
R: Onto Yeine and ostracization and isolation. Uh, the way that Yeine was ostracized growing up in Darr made her way more sensitive to it in Sky.
N: Yeah, she has a - a history and she kind - she doesn't really go into a lot of detail but she - she kind of picks isolated incidents and places where she felt like she had to prove herself more than anybody else even - and even when she was in things like um, the - whatever the program was were there - she was training to be a warrior, she always felt like she had to be better, do better, be stronger, faster, you know, than - than her - her compatriots in order to - to kind of be enough, um. And there - and there's this one moment where um, she was actually - she actually didn't follow through on what was the custom in - um, in Darr and she kind - you - we get a very much of like a feel of a book where like, the fact that she didn't do that was something that she never really - like it - it - it really mattered and it wasn't just a choice she was making. It was definitely something that made her feel like, “Well, you know, maybe I didn't do this right,” um.
R: And that was the coming of age challenge, right?
N: Yeah, yeah. It was weird reading that section because it was like - like she was very clearly thought that her choice was the right one, but she also talks about how it made her kind of separate from - from the group in a weird way.
R: Like they couldn't say she didn't do enough but they also didn't like what she did.
N: Yeah. [laughs]
R: And also, like there's a lot of stuff about her not being enough for her grandmother, like never feeling like she could do enough to be Darr enough, and we actually find out that right when she was born a whole bunch of people were murdered by Nahadoth.
N: Yeah.
R: And it was basically like anybody who was trying to get information or would have reported back to her grandmother so, she didn't know about this until um, part way through this book when she's an adult, but definitely uh, her - I - I’m not surprised that her grandmother was suspicious - was very, very suspicious of her when she lost like a large - at least a significant portion of her household was just murdered right as her granddaughter is born, like that's gotta make it - that's gotta make your feelings complicated.
N: At least. [laughs]
R: Let alone that her - her mother is Arameri instead of Dar.
N: Yeah. Yeah, that's a - that's a weird thing. Well - especially - there's kind of like hints of her - just like - I mean she kind of talks about um, like the Arameri being very like pale - pale skinned and Darr being very, very dark.
R: I like your pronunciation better that was - can you say that again. I’m trying…
N: …Arameri.
R: Arameri, yeah that feels much better. Mine was not…
N: …Than what?
R: …good. Arameri.
N: Oh no, no. [laughs]
R: Arameri is much better, alright.
N: [laughs] Um. [laughs] - talked before about how you and I pronounce names and books incredibly like, differently. [laughs]
R: Yeah.
N: Oh man.
R: Topic one I just tried not to say their name.
N: [laughs]
R: Um. [laughs]
N: Arm - Arameri is a - an interesting take though. Alright, um, honestly I don't know that iIve much else with that one.
R: Well also like, there's this weird way of where she's trying to like cling to her identity as Darr, like, even in like the - the end notes for the book it lists her name as Yeine Darr. Like she - she desperately…
N: …Yeah…
R: …is clinging to this identity even though growing up everyone around her didn't want her to have it.
N: Uh.
R: And then…
N: …Yeah…
R: …and - and then when she actually goes to Sky, it - yeah, you know, feels like that means she didn't belong there and then pivoting to her place in - in Sky, they - they don't want her there either. Like she - she thinks that she's there to be the heir and then almost immediately finds out that, no she's one of three, and then pretty soon after that figures out that not only is she one of three, they don't intend her to be a serious contender, and - in a way I feel like that might have been a little bit easier because there in Sky she doesn't have to - like she does worry about it, but in ways that are more related to her - her relationship with her mom, Like she - I'll talk about that in a second…
N: …Yeah…
R: …but…
N: …Well, in our…
R: …Um…
N: …next topic.
R: Yeah, our next topic we'll talk about that with her mother more, but - it - it - here - she - in Darr it seemed like she thought that maybe something was someday going to be enough.
(30:00)
N: Yeah.
R: In Sky, she doesn't really have that illusion. She kind of knows that - she - she has a very very brief window where she thinks that maybe she's going to be accepted, and it pretty quickly pivots to “No, this is a nest of vipers…
N: …Yeah…
R: …they don't like me…
N: …and she talks about…
R: …don't want me here.”
N: She talks about too how um, she - she's kind of feeling like um, being sent to Sky and - and everyone in Darr kind of going, “Oh good, you're - that's where you belong,” kind like, “Of course you are. You're going -” You know that kind of…
R: …Right, “Of course you're leaving. You were really one…
N: …you weren't…
R: …of us…
N: …You - you were only kind of here,” um, very much…
R: …Mhmm…
N: …feels like a nail in the coffin of like any hope that she was really wanted and - and there's a couple of scenes um, in the book where she actually - you know the - the - you know the - the one time she does go back to Darr where she's really treated as a stranger, and she has to…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …kind of - she kind of calls them out on that is like, “Hey, what are -” like, “Why are you talking to me that way,” like, “I - I fought next to you. I served next to you. I was literally part of your group. Why are you doing this to me?” And then they do like this almost very exaggerated like, “Oh yeah, of course it's you.” Um.
R: Yeah.
N: It's just - she's just very cut off and alone in this entire book.
R: And also with the armor - Arameri, like everybody in Sky wants something from her but she can't trust that anyone actually cares about her, and when - as she's like forming these bonds and she's getting in a little bit, she's getting in mostly with the Enefadeh and…
N: …Mhmm…
R: …she spent several days of her last week alive recovering from having been needed uh for the Enefadeh and just various other things; mostly the Enefadeh, but even then there's this like - she really has to like decide that she's going to - she's just gonna trust. She's just gonna say “Okay, if they don't actually care about me there isn't really anything I can do about it…
N: …Yeah…
R: …so I’m just going to act like maybe they actually do, and go from there,” because also she's starting to care about them too and like, talking about ostracization but she really is starting to feel like maybe she belongs, but it's got this weird clicking talk…
N: …Mmm…
R: …clicking - ticking clock…
N: [laughs]
R: …because this is her - her last, like, week alive.
N: Yeah.
R: Uh. Oh it's her last week alive because eventually she realizes she was only even invited back to Sky as a sacrifice. So not only is sssh - she - it's got this - like that kind of completes this weird journey of thinking she's there as it, discovering she's just one of several, then she just thinks she's the um - like the underdog but she's got a chance, and then it's like “Oh no, they just - they just brought me back…
N: …No, you were…
R: …to kill me…
N: …you were just here because we - we needed someone…
R: …No one __ had a shot…
N: …we needed someone dispensable. But, yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: It's - it's just really - eh - honestly, so here's the thing, and we'll talk about this more on the wrap up like, it's - as a reader I didn't feel like I was cut off and alone with her.
R: Mmhmm.
N: But it's very much of a journey of her being just kind of all by herself all the time and figuring out how to ss - how to try and live and survive with that. Um, and it - like it was - it was really interesting because like a lot of books that I read that the main character, you know that's a - that's a big thing that they go through is - is feeling like they're - they're cut off and alone, the author - the authors generally and at least in the books I've had experience with generally do that by making the reader feel very alone, and this book does a really good job of the character being all alone and you know they're all alone but you as a reader are not.
R: Well, this didn't feel lonely, this felt like - this felt like reading about this like super cool place and really, really interesting people.
N: Yeah.
R: It was not a lonely reading experience.
N: No, not at all.
R: Um.
N: But it - but I think that is worth noting just because it's - it's…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …different and it's - it was - I think it was done really, really well. Um.
R: Yeah.
Topic 3: Yeine - Atmosphere of Cruelty. Begins at (34:45), CW for description of physical magical disembowelment, animal cruelty example, murder.
R: Moving on to Yeine and the atmosphere of cruelty, specifically in SKy, um.
N: Yeah.
R: So one of the things that keeps happening throughout this book - it's like - ever like tell like a - like a - have you ever been around people who will tell like a - like a really weird joke just to watch you kind of be horrified? Like I know - I know you have. I know we're related to someone who does.
N: [laughs]
R: [laughs] Um, but listeners you know how sometimes people will tell jokes and they're just watching to see you just kind of get grossed out or squirm and then they’re like, “What? I’m just like this. You're the one who's weird.” Um, that's - that's happening in Sky, uh, except it's like, “What? you don't like murder?”
N: [laughs]
R: [laughs]
N: Oooo.
R: You’re so - that’s so…
N: …How could you…
R: …You’re so squeamish. How is that? No you gotta like do like a murder,” like you know, “Oh no. Don't get your hands dirty. like tell somebody else to do it…
N: [laughs]
R: …it's much - it's much funny - it's much better that way.”
N: Yeah.
R: Okay, but as to what's like specifically in the book, um, like the way she - we talked about exactly who Naha is in his relationship to Nahadoth uh in segment one and Yeine gets introduced to Naha and kind of have him like sicked on her right as he's about to turn into Nahadoth, and at this point in the book Nahadoth is murderous thing. “Don't be out after dark or he'll kill you, we can't control him.”
N: [laughs]
R: “We've also been kind of torturing him all day long so he will be upset and he will murder you.”
N: “Like this will happen,”
R: “Go, run. Like literally run,” like [laughs] and - and that's - that's kind of like the start of this. Um, it ends up positive because she ends up like getting her in with Nahadoth and all the Enefada, but it was intended to scare her at minimum and possibly kill her as a bonus. Um, it's [sighs] - it's hard to know whether um, ss - uh Shamina wanted her to die at this point because it's not like she would have had permission from Dekarta to kill Yeine, but we also don't know that she wasn't hoping for that. It's like, that's a little bit ambiguous. Um.
N: Yeah.
R: And then we also told you who the pit guy is…
N: [laughs]
R: …uh, in topic one, uh, in case you skipped that topic, um, the pit guy is in a pit with his organs on his outside and limbs rearranged and extra limbs and he's still alive and he is waiting to get to die, basically. And when Viraine shows her the pit guy like there's several like moments where Yeine like is - like she knows something terrible is in the pit and she doesn't want to look and she's kind of avoiding looking, and isn't there a bit where Viraine like says [sighs] - doesn't he call her out on avoiding it?
N: Uh.
R: I’m trying to remember.
N: He does. He does a couple different times. I don't remember the exact wording, um.
R: Look at it - it had the feeling of like, “Why aren't you looking? You should be strong enough to handle this,” something.
N: Yeah, he - he calls her out on it. He basically calls her out for being squeamish and her - her like internal monologue response is something along the lines of, “I’m - I - but he - like I’m trying to respect him by protecting the little dignity he has left.”
R: Mmhmm.
N: And Viraine's just like - like Viraine’s whole commentary is basically like, “Hahaha, look at him and laugh,” and like, you know, “You're - you're not even as strong as your mother. Your mother would have done this herself,” and like Yeine is just like, “No I’m trying to like, not shame him more.”
R: And this is - is…
N: …That happens a couple times…
R: …And…
N: …in that moment…
R: …his current condition is actually kind of the aftermath of a party that he had been warned array - away from by T’Vril because…
N: …Yeah…
R: …um, he basically told her he wouldn't want to be around them, and I agree with T’Vril. Uh, that was…
N: [laughs]
R: …terrible, um it [sighs] - but she doesn't escape getting to see this just because she avoided the entertainment and the actual moment. Also I used the word entertainment because he was the entertainment at the par - at least part of the entertainment at the party. Um, yeah. Um, so [sighs], with them kind of horrifying her on purpose and then saying uh, “You're squeamish, that means you're weak,” she eventually kind of turns this around on Dekarta when she accuses him of killing his wife, which uh, he did. He…
N: [laughs] She was right. Yeah.
R: Yeah, she - she was right uh, his wife filled the role that Yeine is being asked to fill this time around, um which involves dying.
(40:43)
R: And…
N: …Yeah…
R: …he was kind of just like speechless and affronted that she would bring this up to him. Um, and it - there's this kind of - like it ends up being like a more powerful moment but it's on the heels of her like, just having all this just really, really horrific stuff throughout the book.
N: Yeah there's like a - there's a real thread here of just, um, like other people being very amused and and making really belittling degrading comments about her not being cruel, and just not understanding why she's not cruel to other people intentionally. And - not even like if she's intentionally or not, like she's just not like this and they don't get it. Um, they also bring up her - her mom a lot, um. Like - so the fact that her mom married someone not from Sky, married not someone not of the Arameri, um is like a big point of contention, like there with just her identity and - and how she's treated. Um, and it's - it’s kind of a big deal here because her own memories of her mom are very much of someone who kind of instilled in her the values that she has of being kind, and being like, being respectful, and being, you know, and - and fighting for everyone, and caring about the - the lowest of - of society and, you know things, that are - that are cruel being - being mitigated in some way, and it's - it's kind of funky with the little bit we learn about Darr society too where there's some like things where they're - they're very much - it very much reads as her having instilled values from her mom, and then she's compared to her mom and, every comparison that they bring up in Sky just doesn't even match with how her mom was in her memory. Um, you know she's - she's told she's not a full Arameri. She's not cruel enough, she's not calculating enough, and then she's, you know, told well, “Oh, your - your mother would have killed them without a second glance,” like, “Your mom would have helped me with this torture and you can't even look at it,” like there's this very like - it's this really weird setup where she just - she's - she's traumatized by the - the things that she's being told that should be part of her, and it's kind of a double - a double hit when she's being told like, you know, the person that you thought the best of in your life would have done all of these atrocities and more, and you can't even look. It's a very, very - it's very, very um - the thing is like it's not gaslighting it's that - that these people just have a different view of her mother than she did, but it…
R: …Well it’s probably…
N: …very much adds…
R: …partly…
N: …to the trauma.
R: It's probably at least partly the like, since it's been so long since they've seen her they have like a rose-colored glasses like, nostalgia view except they are so cruel that their nostalgia view is like, Your mother was never weak.”
N: Oh I honestly fully believe it's not rose colored glasses. I think her mom was that person.
R: No, no, no. I just - they having it be - not that she was that, but that she was never kind. Like…
N: …Oh…
R: …That…
N: …They just weren't…
R: …Right. Not…
N: …it just wasn't…
R: …I’m sure all of the cruelty was there...
N: …Yeah...
R: …but saying that she was never anything else…
N: …Yeah…
R: …that - it's harder to trust because like, they are not reliable narrators.
N: Yeah.
N: They're very self-interested. I - I think they're probably like 80 to 90% trustworthy, but when it's something like, “And you know what? Your mom would have helped me torture that puppy,” it's like you know? What slow down.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, to be clear they didn't uh, say specifically about puppies but like…
N: [laughs]
R: …there's a point at which…
N: …No, yeah…
R: …it has kind of that vibe…
N: …Yeah...
R: …where it's like, she would have been so cruel and, uh like even - even the bit where um, he [sighs] - sorry he is Viraine. Um when Viraine says that uh her mother was so subtle with insults that you wouldn't realize that she'd insulted you until hours later…
N: [laughs]
R: …and uh, Yeine says, “Well [laughs], my mom - the mom I knew didn't really have to insult people, what’d you do,” uh…
N: [laughs]
R: I really…
N: …Yeah that was a really good…
R: …like that moment…
N: That was - that was one of my favorites [laughs] too actually. She's just like, “Oh, [laughs]
that says something about you actually,” just…
R: …Yeah…
N: …very funny.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (46:00).
R: Onto the wrap up and ratings.
R: For the gratuity rating for enslavement.
N: I actually…
R: …We have…
N: …think [sighs] severe.
R: We had several different examples and we kind of ramped them up and I think we should judge this topic by the most severe example that we discussed. I honestly think even our more like, “benign” or “mild” or whatever you want to call them, examples were still pretty severe. I don't actually think…
R: …Oh absolutely…
N: …we have a non-severe example on here, so I don't think it matters [laughs] which one we use.
R: So, do you think that they're severe or do you think they rise to the level of torture porn?
N: I think literal torture porn, actually.
R: Oh, okay, alright.
N: I think that is a literal actual…
R: …Oh!
N: ... thing in…
R: …Absolutely…
N: …here.
R: No that's true, no that's actually what's happening. Uh, I wasn't thinking of it like that because a lot of it is off screen, but there's just enough of it on screen to - yep that's what's happening. Um, so yes, uh that literally, is in this book, um. It's - not expecting, [laughs] uh.
N: [laughs]
R: Well something's thinking of that.
(47:19)
R: Okay, for the ostracization, best - best word to say, so good.
N: This is Robin's favorite word, this…
R: …It’s not…
N: …episode…
R: …it’s not.
N: [laughs]
R: Ostracization.
N: [laughs]
R:I'll get there.
N: [laughs] Um, I think - I vote moderate.
R: Yeah, like it’s…
N: …in this depiction…
R: …there, it’s a lot.
N:Actually no, yeah.
R: Like…
N: …I’m…
R: …the thing is…
N: …I’m between severe but treated with care and moderate, [sighs].
R: Um.
N: I don’t know.
R: I have a couple of ideas that would have made it severe. Um…
N: …Oh…
R: …that didn't happen.
N: Okay.
R: Like…
N: …okay…
R: …she was - [sighs] she was able to go talk to people almost whenever she wanted. There was one person who kept like ducking her visits for a bit but it - it wasn't like she couldn't go talk to people.
N: That’s - that’s true. She wasn't being like bullied out of anything.
R: She wasn't physically isolated, they just had structural things that meant she wasn't going to get a foothold in Sky, and the potential - whatever level of ostracization happened when she was growing up in Darr, we didn't have it on screen and so I think this ends up being moderate with a lot implied as backstory.
N: Okay.
R: So you can picture whatever level in the background you think maybe happened…
N: …Yeah…
R: …but we don't have it in front of us.
N: Okay, no that makes sense. Um, yeah. I - I - I guess it's the kind of thing where like me filling in the gaps, but that's the whole point is that I have to fill in those gaps.
R: Right.
N: They’re not explicitly laid out in the - okay, so - alright, so moderate, um, backstory. Okay.
R: Yep.
N: Cool.
(49:28)
N: Uh, atmosphere of cruelty. I think this is severe at the least.
R: Yeah, I think this is severe. I think that we can't double count the same event for both…
N: [laughs]
R: …enslavement and cruelty as torture porn. I think it…
N: …That’s the - yeah…
R: …is more relevant.
N: I was wondering…
R: …it’s more relevant as enslavement.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: I was wondering what you would say about that. [laughs]
R: Yeah. Uh.
N: Okay, severe it is.
N: Um. Alright, uh slavery. Uh, integral, interchangeable, irrelevant?
R: It is integral.
N: It's literally the plot.
R: Yeah, it's - it's the plot. Um you could have ditched some of the mortal elements of it..
N: Yeah?
R: But that - but …
N: …But as a - as a…
R: …not…
N: …need…
R: …are enslaved is the point of the entire story.
N: It's the setup for their entire like, functional existence.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah
N: Um.
R: For the ostracization.
N: I think that's also it's either integral or interchangeable, ‘cause a - it sets up like her…
R: …I think it's
N: …personal…
R: … interchangeable because they didn't have to freeze her out, and like that's part of like the way we said that this was moderate, I think…
N: …Yeah…
R: …those are tied together. Um, almost all of this could have been the same without her being freezed out - being frozen out. Um, but - like something is going on here, it didn't have to be “Nah, we didn't want you.”
N: [laugh]
(51:14)
R: Uh, the cruelty, I think it is integral, because it's part of what pushes a lot of motivations.
N: Mmm.
R: Like if they weren't cruel, the gods might not have been making the moves they were, or we might have seen the gods as bad for making the moves they are…
N: [laughs]
R: …Which would have changed the plot significantly.
N: Yeah, yeah.
R: So I think there's room to fiddle with details, but it is…
N …I think…
R: …integral to the plot that they are.
N: yeah, ‘cause that that atmosphere of cruelty is really, really just setting up the society, it's not necessarily - like the plot could have existed independently. The plot could exist in a slightly different city or different setup.
R: Oh, is this your argument for interchangeable?
N: Yes.
R: Okay.
N: Sorry, forgot to say that part. [laughs]
R: Okay, because I said integral and then you said we could have done something different, okay. So…
N: …I just…
R: …Okay…
N: …I - I - I’m almost - oh that's where like - because they could have kept them enslaved without the blatant rev - reveling in hurting.
R: Okay.
N: Like that could have been - like there's there's countless stories that exist that are like that, where some, especially magical deity or being, is en - enslaved in a magical sense but no one is like ah - our first series.
R: I think it’s tricky because…
N: …Our first series that we were - that we put up as an episode in the “Old Kingdom”…
R: …Oh yeah…
N: …Moggot was enslaved. Moggot was not harmed by most of the people that we saw on screen, ever.
R: Right.
N: But that didn't make him not a slave…
R: …
N: …but no one…
R: …but it doesn’t…
N: …was torturing Mogget. [laughs]
R: And it doesn't stop slavery as a thing from being cruel…
N: …Right…
R: …but in terms…
N: …Right…
R: …of this atmosphere of cruelty…
N: …Right…
R: …where no one is safe…
N: …Yep…
R: …god or no, slave or no…
N: …yes…
R: …that…
N: …very, very different things.
R:That's different from it being a cruel institution, okay makes…
N: …And…
R: …sense...
N: …and the plot itself does not hinge upon this cruelty. It's just a…
R: …Yeah…
N: …thing that is here in - in this story. Um, it - it's done really well, but it's a - it's a separate thing.
(53:47)
N: Um, alright. [sighs]
R: Treated with care, the…
N: …You know weirdly enough, I think the slavery is.
R: Yeah, um, most of the…
N: …Which is wild to…
R: …comes…
N: …say.
R: Yeah, most of the horror comes from understanding that slavery at all is a cruel thing.
N: Yeah.
R: This…
N: And like we were talking about with like the - like the atmosphere, like our third topic being separate, um, like I don't think we can - again like we're not relating, linking these two things. I think this absolutely was treated with care. Which it…
R: …So…
N: …that's wild but I really think it was.
R: Keeping in mind - oh I guess even with the pit guy.
N: Yeah, that's not this.
R: Well, no, no, the pit guy is an example of enslavement.
N: But I’m saying like…
R: …that's where we put him. We - we discussed him under enslavement, and so…
N: …that's true.
R: I - so for me the question would be is the pit guy situation treated with care, because that's gonna be the barometer here. And I think…
N: …I think…
R: …that tips it…
N: …I think…
R: …to enough care.
N: I think - yeah, I think it's enough in that case, but only because…
R: …There’s also the…
N: …the - the author also went out of…
R: …enough…
N: …her way to make his specific, um, things be like un - like you cannot do that to a living human being in real life, um which I think kicks it over to the like,, suspension of belief where it's - it's enough care because even if you can kind of a little bit like get a - a - a mental image for that scene, the fact that it's in a book and the fact that it is something that is not physically possible to do - to torture a real life person, like you have to - like it's very easy to kind of go “I can't picture that,” [laughs]
R: And there's an…
N: …And I think that was…
R: …__…
N: …intentional…
R: …there’s enough paragraphs beforehand of, “Are you gonna see?” “No, I don't want to see.” “Are you gonna see?” “No, I don't want to see,” that like you could decide, you know what I’m not going to read this paragraph. Like there's enough leading up to it, um…
N: …Yeah…
R: …that it - it - it lets you know something bad is coming and I think that part of that…
N: …Yeah…
R: …is how it’s enough care.
N: I - yeah, I agree. I think there's a - I think there's definitely a - a mix of that plus the - that - like I said like, kind of that magical, like it's only possible because magic. Wa - and - and also like the details that are given in the description are pretty graphic but they're not - like the language used is pretty bare bones. It's definitely like almost like a bullet point description. It's not this like artistic word picture. [laughs]
R: It's the minimum needed to convey the horror of the image.
N: Yeah, yeah.
R: And then it doesn't keep rehashing it.
N: Yes.
R: So that's enough care.
(57:01)
R: The ostracization, I think that was treated with care.
N: I think - yeah. I - I kind of said a little bit of this earlier like in the actual topic too but like, this - when you read it like, the ostracization is there, but you as a reader - like me as a reader at no point did I feel like I was being shut out, which is a big part of this one. So it's like as far as like a reader experience, like you can feel and relate to her without it feeling painful.
R: Like there are books that try to convey the feeling of loneliness, this…
N: …This does not…
R: …you know what's happening, but this isn't - it isn't that.
N: Yeah.
R: For cruelty.
N: Uh.
R: I…
N: …No. [laughs]
R: No.
N: Nope, [laughs], uh intentionally no, I would say. [laughs]
R: Yeah, it's weird. The cruelty is the point here. Um, yeah, it's not treated with care. It's not trying to be. If it were treated with care then that would make it harder. It would feel a little - it would feel like gaslighting the reader I think for this topic to have been treated with care, because if they say these people are terrible and then we - we don't see it, we don't get any descriptions…
N: [laughs]
R: …it's just like, “Do we know?” and it would be - it would have a very different feel, and it would make us think different things about everyone's motivations if we never actually saw it.
N: Yeah, I think it was…
R: …Um…
N: …definitely necessary to make it be a thing, but, I mean… It's - it's weird because this - I think this is our first one that's like this abstract, like it's we literally describe this as an atmosphere…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …Um, and - and it's very hard to do an atmosphere in a book without actually creating the atmosphere. [laughs]
R: Exactly.
N: Like you can't - you can't describe an atmosphere, you have to you have to show it not tell it, and that's done very, very well but it definitely pushes this into not treated with care.
R: Now that the main trio of our ratings is set, I realize that we have torture porn treated with care, and severe, not enough care, so I just want to check in and make sure that we like those ratings.
N: Oh I think - no I think those are accurate.
R: Okay, alright.
N: I - I think that's - that's why I was saying like this is wild but I think that that's actually accurate, um…
R: …Given how we've treated these matrices before, yes.
N: Yeah, like no this…
R: …Metrics before…
N: This is correct. This is - this is accurate.
R: Yeah.
N: This is ridiculous.
R: Yeah.
N: But this is accurate. [laughs]
(1:00:03)
N: Um.
R: Point of view.
N: Yeine!
R: Yep, it's uh…
N: …Just Yeine.
R: Well, okay for the - for these traumas as we're discussing them, yeah it’s Yeine. Um, there's some innoc - interstitial narration shenanigans where…
N: …but that's a spoiler and we're not going to talk about that.
R: Absolutely.
N: [laugh]
R: Um, so other than the interstitial shenanigans, it's Yeine for the whole book.
N: Yeah. She's our - our point of view forever. We need to do some more rotating point of views. I know I’ve said like - that like the last several episodes.
R: Well, uh, we will.
N: [laughs] We'll…
R: …At some point…
N: …get there…
R: …Yeah…
N: …eventually.
N: Um.
R: Alright. The aspiring writer tip.
N: Ah, I just really want to highlight I think how much we have a topic that is tor - literal descriptive torture porn, that was treated with enough care.
R: And, we've used the phrase torture porn in a non-sexual context or like that's how we've set up this writing.
N: Yeah.
R: It’s…
N: …but this is a literal torture porn.
R: Yes.
N: Like, not - that is not a hyperbole or a metaphor …
R: …Nope…
N: …or a - that's a literal actual torture pornography scene in this book, and this topic was treated with care.
R: Yeah.
N: Like…
R: …Um…
N: …I…
R: …Especially since enough of what would make it that for the character right in front of it, like it's not - it's not - it's not sexy. It's not titillating…
N: …No…
R: …but you know it was for one of the people in the scene and that's why we say that it kind of literally is that in the book.
N: Yeah, no it is - it is set up to be torturous, but it's also…
R: …Yes…
N: …like there's so much of a - [sighs] I don't - I don’t know how to put this into it - I - I feel like the more we review these and the more that we find books that have mild tor - torches - uh mild topics that are treated with no care and are really awful to read and then we find like, severe topics that are treated with so much care that it's like nothing to read about, but it's definitely not glossed over, it's just not painful. Like, the more - the more that we come across these like the more I really feel that any time I've ever seen an author - I mean like, this is my opinion anyway, it's not like my opinion is changing, it's just reinforcing this for me, anytime we see an author who's like, “Oh well, you know, for realism's sake I had to make this painful,” or, “I couldn't talk about that because it would hurt,” like - like these are…
R: There's ways around it, yeah.
N: There's around it and like, maybe you know that person isn't a good enough author to do that good a job, [laugh]. Uh, maybe you're just not good at this yet. [laughs] That's a…
R: …Which means..
N: …possibility…
R: ..write, more and practice…
N: …which means write more. Yeah, [laughs] that means - it means don't - it means don't pretend that you somehow can't, like. I mean - and we're not reading - I mean some of - some of the books we've read have been not fun but like a lot of these books are just - they're - they have all these things in them and they're really good books, they're really fun reads, including this one, and, I don't know.
R: I - I love this one. I’m so glad we picked this. Neither of us had read it before…
N: …No…
R: …and I am loving this series so much.
N: So granted we're - we're only - we've only published at this point 18 episodes as of today, while we're recording this in - on March - or on uh April 13th 2020.
R: Uh…
N: …But…
R: …Podbean doesn't have the 18th episode yet but yeah.
N: But we have - we have put it up into the cloud. It is done.
R: Yeah, yeah.
N: It is complete. Um, we've only published 18 episodes, a lot of those are books that I've read before. But, of the books that we have read, or looked at, or um, just like researched um, of all of the things that we've looked at that I've never read before, this is the first series that I didn't already know about that I want to buy and own.
R: Mmhmm.
N: This is the first new one that I’m like, “I need this.”
R: Good.
N: This is very well done.
R: Excellent. Some more gushing about how well N.K Jemisin did than an actual writer tip but…
N: …That's fine…
R: …in this case…
N: ...That's okay…
R: …I’m cool with that.
N: [laughs]
R: We really liked how this was done here.
(1:05:08)
R: Um, favorite non-traumatic thing about the book.
N: Uh. [laughs] I really like the - the setup for the different gods.
R: Oh yeah.
N: Um, and also - so this is - in - this book very much has like a pantheon of god so to speak, kind of a little bit, um but this - uh let me say this, if N.K Jemisin is pulling from an existing pantheon, it's not one of the ones that I hear about all the time. It's not the stereotype that is Greek, Roman, and a little bit norse and also that like - it's very - it's very different. It's very, at least in my experience, unique and it was really cool, and I liked reading about the different dynamics, and the different things that they were in charge of, and how those - and seeing how those things kind of manifested and their personalities. It wasn't just like “You're a superhero, and these are your godly powers, and here's your dominion,” it was very much like a, “No you react, and act, and talk, and move, and be this way because this is who you are,” and it - it was just really cool to read and in general I like reading about pantheon of gods that are done interestingly like that but, this was not the same one that I - that permeates earth, [laugh] so…
R: …Yeah…
N: …that was cool.
R: I love the depiction of Sieh. Sieh is so great. Um, I really, really like the ambiguity on whether he's like this because he has embraced childhood in his aspect. or whether childhood was a fitting aspect because he's already like this.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: I like that ambiguity. It's really well handled. I tend to interpret it being more the first one. Like he already trended in this way, but at whatever point he had to pick, he really just went for it rather than it picking him. That's how I feel about it, but I’m - I would totally see the point of anyone who wanted to argue in the different direction or have a slightly different like breakdown of it. I just really, really love him as a character and, the way his rea - relationship is with Yeine is really cool and really interesting and - yeah I - I liked having an intimate non-sexual relationship…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …portrayed.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Um, that was - that was really, really cool.
N: Oh, can I throw in with that one?
R: Sure.
N: An intimate non-sexual relationship that was treated as on par with potential sexual ones.
R: Yes.
N: As in…
R: …In terms…
N: …not lesser…
R: …of importance of emotional…
N: …not…
R: …time…
N: …like, not lesser, not beneath, not like, settling somehow. Just - just as important and, yeah It was - that was cool.
R: And the book takes the time to untangle those.
N: Yes.
R: Because Yeine doesn't realize that that's really the kind of relationship that Sieh is trying to have…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: … and it takes the time to let you know, no. He's not trying to be sexual.
N: Mmhmm
R: Which as I said he's embraced childhood so that would have been creepy.
N: Yeah.
R: So, no explicitly not, and then, not that I’m a - not that I want polyamory to be jealous or something…
N: …No…
R: …but given their situation, the way in which the jealousy is portrayed treats these relationships as having - as yeah, as you said as being on the same plane and e - and like equivalent contenders for Yeine’s time and attention. [sighs] Love this trilogy, halfway through - well I love the series so far, part way through book two, really looking forward to uh, next episode, and getting to finish the book in order to do the next episode. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll catch you in a fortnight.
Outro: Begins at 1:09:58.
[Musical Interlude]
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
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