N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin, and today we're discussing the “Hundred Thousand Kingdoms” by N. K. Jemisin. For our factions we have: Yeine Darr, we have the Arameri, there are several of them, we have Dekarta, Relad, Scimina, Viraine, T’vril, Kinneth, and Ygreth. Then for gods and godlings, we have Itempas, Nahadoth, Enefa, and Sieh.

R: For the minor character spotlight, we are bundling together a couple of characters going from the least dramatic to the most dramatic, uh, dramatic and traumatic, um depictions of enslavement and various forms of constraint, in a negative context. Not all of these are technically…

N: [laughs]

R: …enslavement, but they're on the same scale and they all are distressing and traumatic…

N: …Well…

R: …and so…

N: …I would go as far as to say maybe they are because every…

R: …that’s that maybe.

N: Well uh, I - I think - I think it depends on whether you consider the - the family as government owning everyone on their little…

R: Right because if they're…

N: …because…

R: …a family…

N: …they do…

R: …then a lot of families demand things out of family members that they wouldn't demand out of other people, and if you look at them as the government, yeah it's enslavement no question. N: But that's the thing is I don't - I don't think it's - I don't think you can separate the two. I think the family is the government and higher ranking members of the family have enslaved the lower ranking members and treat them as property.

R: Well, okay then everybody on this scale is in some kind of enslavement.

N: Yeah I - I think it really is, because the way it - the way that it is portrayed in the text, there is no such thing as saying no if someone has…

R: …Oh yeah…

N: …a - a higher rank tattoo than yours and the people that have full circles do whatever they want with whoever they want, and treat everyone else as an object created to serve them. Like that is how they act.

R: And we do learn that even the people who are in the family but are not called the Sky that's part of a strategy in order to keep generating more members of the family who can be called to sky so, yeah, okay. I agree with your assessment that everybody on this spectrum is in some type of enslavement. So our first person, the only one whom I considered potentially not to be enslaved…

N: [laughs]

R: …though I have been convinced, is T’vril. T’vril…

N: …Yeah, ‘cause he cannot leave and he…

R: …is…

N: …has no free will. [laughs] like…

R: …Yeah…

N: …for his whole entire life.

R: Yeah I mean he has for - he can decide to do something that would make them mad and they kill him.

N: Ah, I…

R: …So in that sense he has…

N: …Yeah okay, sure.

R: Yeah.

N: [laughs]

R: Sorry I…

N: …but that - that - but that has no, yeah but that's…

R: …Alright…

N: …not…

R: In a philosophical sense he has free will, in a practical sense it doesn't feel like it.

N: Any - any slave throughout history has the free will to do something they're not allowed to do and get killed for it though Robin.

R: Yeah.

N: That's…

R: …Oh yeah, yeah…

N: … like that doesn't mean anything.

R: Sorry, listening to too many philosophy things. You said free will and I was like, “Ah, you mean no good options,” and I will heartily agree he has no good options.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah. So T’vril, he has to work for the family. He has a lot of responsibility but not very much power. So he has some power over people who are not - who have a lesser blood scale level than he does. And there's some like squishiness on exactly what they mean by full blood because our main character is canonically half blood. Like unless the family gets very incestuous, even full blood people…

N: …Yeah…

R: …usually are gonna be half blood so it's more like a - it's more a…

N: …I think it’s a …

R: …reco…

N: …a ruling…

R: …gnition.

N: I - this is where we get into the whole, the family is the government thing. Um, and - and you know we have not - you know - as much - I would love to. I'd love to hear the ins and outs of exactly how this is uh…

R: …Yeah…

N: …like functions, just even more details than the books give us, but the way it - it seems to be that the - the blood that the - the - the genetic code, the blood that you get by - by being born with this, the family genetics, the family line, uh is what gets you into the family but the how much - how much related [laughs] - look what whether you're half blood, or full blood, or - or what degree, what partial you get is maybe a little bit - indicated by who you're actually related to um, but really practically it's who is in power when you are given the tattoo that signifies your rank.

R: Yeah.

N: Like…

R: …You mean like um…

N: …it's a literal…

R: …__ …

N: …it's a literal magical…

R: …people’s foreheads.

(7:19)

N: Yeah. So like yeah, if you have somebody who is the lowest rank of like an eighth or - or whatever, I don't - we don't actually know what the - the lowest partial is that they - they have but, you know if that person has a child chances are that that child will get that same rank or lower, but, that's not guaranteed. Um.

R: Right.

N: So and - and our main character is canonically the grandchild of the current ruler so it would make sense that her crescent is, you know, like logically it would make sense it's either a quarter or lower. Or, you know, not - not - not ruling out uh, marrying into the family, so to speak. Um.

R: And…

N: …She would at least be half or lower except that when she didn't have a - a cres - or she didn't have a tattoo when she was born or when she was little, we don't know exactly when kids get them. Um, and so her - her grandfather who is the ruler said we're going to give you a full blood crescent now as an adult. So it's very much - it's very much a position. It's very much a choice on the on behalf of who is in charge.

R: Yeah, and we're talking about like bloods and levels and things…

N: [laughs]

R: …and I want to be clear relating to real world stuff, this is neither blood quantum, nor is it the ‘one job - drop rule’...

N: …No…

R: …but some things in this book might be uncomfortable for people who have trauma related to either of those two things.

N: Mmhmm.

R: But it's also a - a fictional, magical…

N: [laughs]

R: …exploration within this family where they have this weird set of rules where…

N: …Actually…

R: … “If you have one drop we will control you, but if you don't have enough, you don't get power.”

N: Yeah, you can't control others.

R: So it’s this - yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: So it's actually this bizarre combination of both of those, some elements of both of those real world ideas in one thing, and it's a very interesting like setup as a story to read, but, just in case anyone has like stuff related to that, this description, all these levels and percentages that we're talking about and the way the book talks about it, it could be uncomfortable so I just want to mention that.

N: Actually…

R: …’Cause there's a lot of this discussion.

N: So it's - it's not really - so it's really kind of interesting that these books have those themes.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, because the little bit that um I actually did look up this author when we were looking - when we found this series and the little bit we know of N. K. Jemisin just off of her like wikipedia page; she's an american author. She's an american author of color, and uh, she's - she has worked as a psychologist, a counseling psychologist, and part of her - like there's just an overall theme, according to the wiki, of cultural conflict and oppression in her - in her books. So she has - she's an american author of color who works as a psychologist. [laughs] It's - and so the fact that she put like this fl - this intricate, interesting take on blending those two things into her - the setup and the structure of this - this series, um, it's just really cool I think, and I think it definitely like makes sense that it would be like, those two things are something she would pull on and also like the way she uses them. Like just the - the fact that you know she's - she's worked as a counseling psychologist it cut - it makes sense that like, it - it, I don't know It makes reading - it makes reading book one make a lot of sense because it's kind of like, “Oh that's why you're - that's why you're able to like explore this weird cool twist on this thing and how it would…

R: …Oh yeah…

N: …affect people,” and it's really interesting. Um, but, yeah.

R: Yeah. It's - it's [sighs]. It's really well put together and if I didn't - it - it doesn't read like, “Oh we're gonna critique these two systems at all…

N: …No…

R: …but also…

N: …No…

R: …it definitely feels like you could completely use this as an example of critiquing those other systems. It's…

N: …Oh…

R: …Anyway…

N: I wasn't trying to say that it was - it was…

R: …Not critiquing…

N: …not it was the…

R: …Like it was…

N: …other systems. I’m just - I just think it's really interesting that the way that…

R: …It’s informed by…

N: …Yeah…

R: …maybe?

N: Yeah…

R: …Is what I mean?

N: Yeah, yeah, that's a - that's a good way of putting it. It…

R: …Yeah not…

N: …It’s not directly those two things.

R: Yeah.

N: But it's a very cool, very interesting setup. Um.

R: Yep.

N: Oh and also there's - ah - I do want to point out because we're talking about like - like half blood and full blood and like of marrying - what if you married someone else in the family and like, this - this family as the government is kind of shh - like hinted and they don't - they don't give you like a population count, but everyone who lives and works in this giant floating city called Sky, is family. There are…

R: …Yep…

N: …probably hundreds or thousands of family members. Like, we're not looking at - we're not looking at you would have to commit incest to marry into the family.

(12:38)

N: Like the family…

R: …Oh no…

N: …is the city. [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: Like, and everyone in it so…

R: And as I mentioned previously like we are told that they have lower members of the family elsewhere so that they can marry and like bring in fresh blood…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …from outside and…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …like have, you know more - more variants.

N: [laughs]

R: Um, so this topic is [sighs] - so we've talked about some of the structure that makes this enslavement happen, but I want to make sure we get to talk about a couple of the particular people. so we've talked about T’vril. He has the very basic level of he's part of this family, and can't not be. Uh, then we have a duo. Uh, I’m okay with either talking about them separately or as a duo, we have Naha and Nahadoth.

N: I think we should talk about them as a duo because…

R: …okay…

N: …uh literally you can't talk about…

R: …it’s hard not to…

N: …one without the other.

R: Yeah. So Naha is the human body in which Nahadoth the god is constrained. So - but Naha has separate consciousness. He has separate wants desires, everything, except he is the flesh prison for a god, which means he's humiliated and tortured for things that almost all the time he didn't do. Like…

N: …Yeah…

R: …even if - even if it's like, “Oh we're doing something to you because you talked back or did this,” well maybe he talked back because he feels really terrible because he's the flesh prison for a god. Like everything comes back to he's being hurt because he is someone else's prison, and he also lives in terror of waking up and finding bodies around him. Not as a - and not in the abstract, just…

N: …No…

R: …it has happened before and he lives in terror of it happening again.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And then we have Nahadoth who is the god who was constrained by his brother god Itempas and he's trapped in flesh. He can be hurt but he won't die, and he is both completely able to kill all of them and magically constrained from hurting any of them, unless one of them tells them to kill them.

N: So the part with these two that's important to enslavement other than just their identities…

R: …Yes…

N: …is that both of them are magically constrained to obey anything that a member of the family tells them to do, and now, much like uh - uh, genie mythos, um or djinn mythos, uh or fae mythos a little bit…

R: …Uh…

N: …if you…

R: …this kind of reminded me…

N: …there's a…

R: …reminds me of the fae so much, this whole book.

N: There's - there's a very - there's a very uh, literal component here where if you tell them to do something they are perfectly fee - free to misconstrue the intent of your order and do what they really want to do if they can find a way to make it fit the letter of what you say, um, but within literal restrictions they - they have to do what they are told by members of the family, high or low. And if they're given contrary orders or contracting - contra - uh, contradicting orders um, then the person who is of a higher - higher rank uh, is the one who kind of - kind of is - gets followed.

R: And there's at least one very memorable time where this happens where Yeine asked Nahadoth to do something and he says, “I can't it would go against this order…

N: …Yeah…

R: …um, “this order from Dekarta,” who is over everything.

N: Yeah so - so yeah, that's their - they have a - I mean everybody is. Well, I guess - I guess other members of the family are - are not magically enslaved necessarily but like, these guys are magically enslaved.

R: Yeah they're magically enslaved and I just, the way they have to obey like everybody unless it contradicts someone else's orders, it's really interesting because - I’m trying to think. It’s - it's one of those like, I don't know how much their ability to want to do something else is constrained, because - like I don't - I don't know, there isn't enough here to make it super clear one way or the other.

(17:37)

Like we mostly get language when some constraints are lifted of, um, them, you know, Nahadoth being able to like be fully himself again, that like implies maybe that there might have been some like limited ability to want to be…

N: …Uh - uh…

R: …otherwise but I don't know. I - it's not nearly…

N: …I don’t know…

R: …as clear as it was with the character like say, Mogget from the “Old Kingdom”. There it was extremely clear, but, I don't know I - I hope we get more as this series goes on…

N: …Mmhmm...

R: …that I just - sorry I just started wondering about…

N: [laughs]

R: …that because when we talk about - we talk about enslavement in - in - with other books. We've talked about uh mental manipulation like, altered states of mind as forms of trauma and control, and I would be surprised if that isn't at play here.

N: Mmmm, yeah.

R: But if it is, it's not - it's not explicit and so we can't really…

N: …Like we just don't know yet.

R: If we…

N: …Find out…

R: …don’t know.

N: [laughs]

R: Yeah, but in terms of mental stuff that definitely is a constraint here, Nahadoth appears to be able to remember all 24 hours of the day and Naha only knows what's happening when he is - when the human bit is awake. He doesn't know what's happening at night when Nahadoth is in charge.

N: Mmhmm.

R: and so that - that [sighs]. It's not quite an altered cognition, it's more like…

N: …more like he's - well he describes it as just being asleep. He's just…

R: …Yeah…

N: …he's just magically asleep when Nahados is out.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah, and - and Nahadoth is definitely the - like the - the one of the two of them that is in charge. Like when he is awake he is the…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …one who's like in charge of their body and doing things and um, and Naha is - is definitely the afterthought.

R: Yeah there's a lot …

N: …So…

R: …of people treating him like he is Nahadoth…

N: …Yeah…

R: …kind of? Because it was really confusing earlier in the book for me at least where I was like, “What's going on?” Didn't understand the flesh prison thing, and I was like, “Why is he only powerful as soon as it's dark? And if that's the case why are you torturing him until literally sundown? That doesn't seem

N: [laughs]

R: …smart.”

N: Yeah, there’s…

R: …That seems like a terrible…

N: [sighs]

R: …plan.

N: [laughs]

R: Uh, and then - and then it made sense. Um, alright. Last enslavement bit. We have nameless guy in a pit. Um, [sighs] somehow we left this as - not somehow, I understand why, I picked this, that we have this as the most - the most dramatic in terms of the depiction in the book…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …um of these minor characters with enslavement and I want to - I want to say the description that's from the book of what's going on with this guy, uh, the state that I’m about to describe is the result after he was used for an evening's entertainment by uh, the arm - Arimeri at a party. “Take a human being, twist and stretch his limbs like clay. Add new limbs designed for god's know what purpose. Bring some of his innards out of his body yet leave them all working. Seal up his mouth and sky father, god of all gods, the worst was this; I could still see intelligence and awareness in the distorted eyes. They had not even allowed him the escape of insanity.” So, yeah. This person was - he was trapped. Base - there's magical shenanigans going on where they need him to die in order for this thing, this magical stone to be moved. But in the meantime, while he's waiting in a pit to be killed later that week, why not just torture him at this party by taking his organs out of his body but not letting him die. And then he's also constrained such that if he doesn't do the thing they want him to do then his lover will share his fate, and I don't know if that means die or if that means have all the limb and organ stretching stuff happen, and I don't think it matters which one of the two other than one of them makes me more squeamish - squeamish and the other one just makes me sad.

N: I mean, not - not spoilers, not sharing what his fate eventually is um…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …but I - I really think it's just if he won't do the thing, if he doesn't survive to do the thing they need then she will. I think that's - I think that's what it means. Now, not to say they won't torture…

R:: …I’m assuming this…

N: …her for fun, but I don't think it's like - I don't think it's necessarily…

R: …i'd assumed it was a woman and I looked at the text and it doesn't actually say the gender of the lover. Um, but…

N: …Oh…

R: …don't know either way. Yeah.

N: I didn't…

R: …I - I…

N: …I didn't remember because you had said wife earlier. [laughs]

R: Oh yeah no I - I thought it had - had said something more gendered and then it - it doesn't, uh. So - but either way uh, it would not be good for his lover.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, we don't have a lot more details about nameless pet guy other than, this is kind of sort of the upper bounds of how torturous and terrible the enslavement is within this system and within this city, where someone is already slated to die, and just for kicks at a party they do this to him.

R: Onto Yeine and ostracization and isolation. Uh, the way that Yeine was ostracized growing up in Darr made her way more sensitive to it in Sky.

N: Yeah, she has a - a history and she kind - she doesn't really go into a lot of detail but she - she kind of picks isolated incidents and places where she felt like she had to prove herself more than anybody else even - and even when she was in things like um, the - whatever the program was were there - she was training to be a warrior, she always felt like she had to be better, do better, be stronger, faster, you know, than - than her - her compatriots in order to - to kind of be enough, um. And there - and there's this one moment where um, she was actually - she actually didn't follow through on what was the custom in - um, in Darr and she kind - you - we get a very much of like a feel of a book where like, the fact that she didn't do that was something that she never really - like it - it - it really mattered and it wasn't just a choice she was making. It was definitely something that made her feel like, “Well, you know, maybe I didn't do this right,” um.

R: And that was the coming of age challenge, right?

N: Yeah, yeah. It was weird reading that section because it was like - like she was very clearly thought that her choice was the right one, but she also talks about how it made her kind of separate from - from the group in a weird way.

R: Like they couldn't say she didn't do enough but they also didn't like what she did.

N: Yeah. [laughs]

R: And also, like there's a lot of stuff about her not being enough for her grandmother, like never feeling like she could do enough to be Darr enough, and we actually find out that right when she was born a whole bunch of people were murdered by Nahadoth.

N: Yeah.

R: And it was basically like anybody who was trying to get information or would have reported back to her grandmother so, she didn't know about this until um, part way through this book when she's an adult, but definitely uh, her - I - I’m not surprised that her grandmother was suspicious - was very, very suspicious of her when she lost like a large - at least a significant portion of her household was just murdered right as her granddaughter is born, like that's gotta make it - that's gotta make your feelings complicated.

N: At least. [laughs]

R: Let alone that her - her mother is Arameri instead of Dar.

N: Yeah. Yeah, that's a - that's a weird thing. Well - especially - there's kind of like hints of her - just like - I mean she kind of talks about um, like the Arameri being very like pale - pale skinned and Darr being very, very dark.

R: I like your pronunciation better that was - can you say that again. I’m trying…

N: …Arameri.

R: Arameri, yeah that feels much better. Mine was not…

N: …Than what?

R: …good. Arameri.

N: Oh no, no. [laughs]

R: Arameri is much better, alright.

N: [laughs] Um. [laughs] - talked before about how you and I pronounce names and books incredibly like, differently. [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: Oh man.

R: Topic one I just tried not to say their name.

N: [laughs]

R: Um. [laughs]

N: Arm - Arameri is a - an interesting take though. Alright, um, honestly I don't know that iIve much else with that one.

R: Well also like, there's this weird way of where she's trying to like cling to her identity as Darr, like, even in like the - the end notes for the book it lists her name as Yeine Darr. Like she - she desperately…

N: …Yeah…

R: …is clinging to this identity even though growing up everyone around her didn't want her to have it.

N: Uh.

R: And then…

N: …Yeah…

R: …and - and then when she actually goes to Sky, it - yeah, you know, feels like that means she didn't belong there and then pivoting to her place in - in Sky, they - they don't want her there either. Like she - she thinks that she's there to be the heir and then almost immediately finds out that, no she's one of three, and then pretty soon after that figures out that not only is she one of three, they don't intend her to be a serious contender, and - in a way I feel like that might have been a little bit easier because there in Sky she doesn't have to - like she does worry about it, but in ways that are more related to her - her relationship with her mom, Like she - I'll talk about that in a second…

N: …Yeah…

R: …but…

N: …Well, in our…

R: …Um…

N: …next topic.

R: Yeah, our next topic we'll talk about that with her mother more, but - it - it - here - she - in Darr it seemed like she thought that maybe something was someday going to be enough.

(30:00)

N: Yeah.

R: In Sky, she doesn't really have that illusion. She kind of knows that - she - she has a very very brief window where she thinks that maybe she's going to be accepted, and it pretty quickly pivots to “No, this is a nest of vipers…

N: …Yeah…

R: …they don't like me…

N: …and she talks about…

R: …don't want me here.”

N: She talks about too how um, she - she's kind of feeling like um, being sent to Sky and - and everyone in Darr kind of going, “Oh good, you're - that's where you belong,” kind like, “Of course you are. You're going -” You know that kind of…

R: …Right, “Of course you're leaving. You were really one…

N: …you weren't…

R: …of us…

N: …You - you were only kind of here,” um, very much…

R: …Mhmm…

N: …feels like a nail in the coffin of like any hope that she was really wanted and - and there's a couple of scenes um, in the book where she actually - you know the - the - you know the - the one time she does go back to Darr where she's really treated as a stranger, and she has to…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …kind of - she kind of calls them out on that is like, “Hey, what are -” like, “Why are you talking to me that way,” like, “I - I fought next to you. I served next to you. I was literally part of your group. Why are you doing this to me?” And then they do like this almost very exaggerated like, “Oh yeah, of course it's you.” Um.

R: Yeah.

N: It's just - she's just very cut off and alone in this entire book.

R: And also with the armor - Arameri, like everybody in Sky wants something from her but she can't trust that anyone actually cares about her, and when - as she's like forming these bonds and she's getting in a little bit, she's getting in mostly with the Enefadeh and…

N: …Mhmm…

R: …she spent several days of her last week alive recovering from having been needed uh for the Enefadeh and just various other things; mostly the Enefadeh, but even then there's this like - she really has to like decide that she's going to - she's just gonna trust. She's just gonna say “Okay, if they don't actually care about me there isn't really anything I can do about it…

N: …Yeah…

R: …so I’m just going to act like maybe they actually do, and go from there,” because also she's starting to care about them too and like, talking about ostracization but she really is starting to feel like maybe she belongs, but it's got this weird clicking talk…

N: …Mmm…

R: …clicking - ticking clock…

N: [laughs]

R: …because this is her - her last, like, week alive.

N: Yeah.

R: Uh. Oh it's her last week alive because eventually she realizes she was only even invited back to Sky as a sacrifice. So not only is sssh - she - it's got this - like that kind of completes this weird journey of thinking she's there as it, discovering she's just one of several, then she just thinks she's the um - like the underdog but she's got a chance, and then it's like “Oh no, they just - they just brought me back…

N: …No, you were…

R: …to kill me…

N: …you were just here because we - we needed someone…

R: …No one __ had a shot…

N: …we needed someone dispensable. But, yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: It's - it's just really - eh - honestly, so here's the thing, and we'll talk about this more on the wrap up like, it's - as a reader I didn't feel like I was cut off and alone with her.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But it's very much of a journey of her being just kind of all by herself all the time and figuring out how to ss - how to try and live and survive with that. Um, and it - like it was - it was really interesting because like a lot of books that I read that the main character, you know that's a - that's a big thing that they go through is - is feeling like they're - they're cut off and alone, the author - the authors generally and at least in the books I've had experience with generally do that by making the reader feel very alone, and this book does a really good job of the character being all alone and you know they're all alone but you as a reader are not.

R: Well, this didn't feel lonely, this felt like - this felt like reading about this like super cool place and really, really interesting people.

N: Yeah.

R: It was not a lonely reading experience.

N: No, not at all.

R: Um.

N: But it - but I think that is worth noting just because it's - it's…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …different and it's - it was - I think it was done really, really well. Um.

R: Yeah.

R: Moving on to Yeine and the atmosphere of cruelty, specifically in SKy, um.

N: Yeah.

R: So one of the things that keeps happening throughout this book - it's like - ever like tell like a - like a - have you ever been around people who will tell like a - like a really weird joke just to watch you kind of be horrified? Like I know - I know you have. I know we're related to someone who does.

N: [laughs]

R: [laughs] Um, but listeners you know how sometimes people will tell jokes and they're just watching to see you just kind of get grossed out or squirm and then they’re like, “What? I’m just like this. You're the one who's weird.” Um, that's - that's happening in Sky, uh, except it's like, “What? you don't like murder?”

N: [laughs]

R: [laughs]

N: Oooo.

R: You’re so - that’s so…

N: …How could you…

R: …You’re so squeamish. How is that? No you gotta like do like a murder,” like you know, “Oh no. Don't get your hands dirty. like tell somebody else to do it…

N: [laughs]

R: …it's much - it's much funny - it's much better that way.”

N: Yeah.

R: Okay, but as to what's like specifically in the book, um, like the way she - we talked about exactly who Naha is in his relationship to Nahadoth uh in segment one and Yeine gets introduced to Naha and kind of have him like sicked on her right as he's about to turn into Nahadoth, and at this point in the book Nahadoth is murderous thing. “Don't be out after dark or he'll kill you, we can't control him.”

N: [laughs]

R: “We've also been kind of torturing him all day long so he will be upset and he will murder you.”

N: “Like this will happen,”

R: “Go, run. Like literally run,” like [laughs] and - and that's - that's kind of like the start of this. Um, it ends up positive because she ends up like getting her in with Nahadoth and all the Enefada, but it was intended to scare her at minimum and possibly kill her as a bonus. Um, it's [sighs] - it's hard to know whether um, ss - uh Shamina wanted her to die at this point because it's not like she would have had permission from Dekarta to kill Yeine, but we also don't know that she wasn't hoping for that. It's like, that's a little bit ambiguous. Um.

N: Yeah.

R: And then we also told you who the pit guy is…

N: [laughs]

R: …uh, in topic one, uh, in case you skipped that topic, um, the pit guy is in a pit with his organs on his outside and limbs rearranged and extra limbs and he's still alive and he is waiting to get to die, basically. And when Viraine shows her the pit guy like there's several like moments where Yeine like is - like she knows something terrible is in the pit and she doesn't want to look and she's kind of avoiding looking, and isn't there a bit where Viraine like says [sighs] - doesn't he call her out on avoiding it?

N: Uh.

R: I’m trying to remember.

N: He does. He does a couple different times. I don't remember the exact wording, um.

R: Look at it - it had the feeling of like, “Why aren't you looking? You should be strong enough to handle this,” something.

N: Yeah, he - he calls her out on it. He basically calls her out for being squeamish and her - her like internal monologue response is something along the lines of, “I’m - I - but he - like I’m trying to respect him by protecting the little dignity he has left.”

R: Mmhmm.

N: And Viraine's just like - like Viraine’s whole commentary is basically like, “Hahaha, look at him and laugh,” and like, you know, “You're - you're not even as strong as your mother. Your mother would have done this herself,” and like Yeine is just like, “No I’m trying to like, not shame him more.”

R: And this is - is…

N: …That happens a couple times…

R: …And…

N: …in that moment…

R: …his current condition is actually kind of the aftermath of a party that he had been warned array - away from by T’Vril because…

N: …Yeah…

R: …um, he basically told her he wouldn't want to be around them, and I agree with T’Vril. Uh, that was…

N: [laughs]

R: …terrible, um it [sighs] - but she doesn't escape getting to see this just because she avoided the entertainment and the actual moment. Also I used the word entertainment because he was the entertainment at the par - at least part of the entertainment at the party. Um, yeah. Um, so [sighs], with them kind of horrifying her on purpose and then saying uh, “You're squeamish, that means you're weak,” she eventually kind of turns this around on Dekarta when she accuses him of killing his wife, which uh, he did. He…

N: [laughs] She was right. Yeah.

R: Yeah, she - she was right uh, his wife filled the role that Yeine is being asked to fill this time around, um which involves dying.

(40:43)

R: And…

N: …Yeah…

R: …he was kind of just like speechless and affronted that she would bring this up to him. Um, and it - there's this kind of - like it ends up being like a more powerful moment but it's on the heels of her like, just having all this just really, really horrific stuff throughout the book.

N: Yeah there's like a - there's a real thread here of just, um, like other people being very amused and and making really belittling degrading comments about her not being cruel, and just not understanding why she's not cruel to other people intentionally. And - not even like if she's intentionally or not, like she's just not like this and they don't get it. Um, they also bring up her - her mom a lot, um. Like - so the fact that her mom married someone not from Sky, married not someone not of the Arameri, um is like a big point of contention, like there with just her identity and - and how she's treated. Um, and it's - it’s kind of a big deal here because her own memories of her mom are very much of someone who kind of instilled in her the values that she has of being kind, and being like, being respectful, and being, you know, and - and fighting for everyone, and caring about the - the lowest of - of society and, you know things, that are - that are cruel being - being mitigated in some way, and it's - it's kind of funky with the little bit we learn about Darr society too where there's some like things where they're - they're very much - it very much reads as her having instilled values from her mom, and then she's compared to her mom and, every comparison that they bring up in Sky just doesn't even match with how her mom was in her memory. Um, you know she's - she's told she's not a full Arameri. She's not cruel enough, she's not calculating enough, and then she's, you know, told well, “Oh, your - your mother would have killed them without a second glance,” like, “Your mom would have helped me with this torture and you can't even look at it,” like there's this very like - it's this really weird setup where she just - she's - she's traumatized by the - the things that she's being told that should be part of her, and it's kind of a double - a double hit when she's being told like, you know, the person that you thought the best of in your life would have done all of these atrocities and more, and you can't even look. It's a very, very - it's very, very um - the thing is like it's not gaslighting it's that - that these people just have a different view of her mother than she did, but it…

R: …Well it’s probably…

N: …very much adds…

R: …partly…

N: …to the trauma.

R: It's probably at least partly the like, since it's been so long since they've seen her they have like a rose-colored glasses like, nostalgia view except they are so cruel that their nostalgia view is like, Your mother was never weak.”

N: Oh I honestly fully believe it's not rose colored glasses. I think her mom was that person.

R: No, no, no. I just - they having it be - not that she was that, but that she was never kind. Like…

N: …Oh…

R: …That…

N: …They just weren't…

R: …Right. Not…

N: …it just wasn't…

R: …I’m sure all of the cruelty was there...

N: …Yeah...

R: …but saying that she was never anything else…

N: …Yeah…

R: …that - it's harder to trust because like, they are not reliable narrators.

N: Yeah.

N: They're very self-interested. I - I think they're probably like 80 to 90% trustworthy, but when it's something like, “And you know what? Your mom would have helped me torture that puppy,” it's like you know? What slow down.

N: [laughs]

R: Uh, to be clear they didn't uh, say specifically about puppies but like…

N: [laughs]

R: …there's a point at which…

N: …No, yeah…

R: …it has kind of that vibe…

N: …Yeah...

R: …where it's like, she would have been so cruel and, uh like even - even the bit where um, he [sighs] - sorry he is Viraine. Um when Viraine says that uh her mother was so subtle with insults that you wouldn't realize that she'd insulted you until hours later…

N: [laughs]

R: …and uh, Yeine says, “Well [laughs], my mom - the mom I knew didn't really have to insult people, what’d you do,” uh…

N: [laughs]

R: I really…

N: …Yeah that was a really good…

R: …like that moment…

N: That was - that was one of my favorites [laughs] too actually. She's just like, “Oh, [laughs]

that says something about you actually,” just…

R: …Yeah…

N: …very funny.