The Broken Kingdoms

Series 5 Episode 2

Book 2 of The Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)

R: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (0:23-0:49)

Plot Synopsis (0:50-0:59)

N: “The Broken Kingdoms” by N.K Jemisin is a book about how choices shape characters destinies, even when their essences would seem to deny them a chance at happiness.

Factions (0:59-1:56)

N: Hi, I'm Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and for our factions we have our point of view character Oree Shoth and Shiny, a long list of gods and godlings. We have Madding the Lord of Debts, Sieh, Ina, Kitr the Blade, Lil the Hunger, Nemmer the lady of Secrets, uh Paitya the Terror, Role the Lady of Compassion, Oboro, Nahadoth the Lord of Shadows, and Intempas the Bright Lord, Yeine the Gray Lady. And then for human members of the Order of Intempas we have Privit Rimarn Dih. For the New Lights we have Hado, Serymn Ar - Ar -Arameri. Yeah, Serymn Arameri and Dateh. And then as the head of the Arameri we have T’vril Arameri.

Topic 1: Shiny - Suicidal Tendencies. Begins at (0:50), CW for suicide, self-harm, mention of cutting, death, murder.

N: So, we are gonna kind of talk - for a minor character spotlight, we are talking about a character called Shiny, uh, who is immortal and, we're gonna be tah - so he's immortal but he is in - he is explicitly human, which means that he can and does die. He just resurrects. If - there's a good…

R: …I would say he is - I'd say he's more enduring than immortal since the more…

N: …Yeah…

R: …__ death…

N: … that's good - that's a good point. Um, but his - his soul, his consciousness is immortal, his body is not was how I was thinking of that, but I think…

R: …Okay…

N: …No, that's a good distinction. But yeah and he, uh. So he has a uh - a - his whole everything about him in the book sprinkled with all of these different times that he dies. Like it's - it's - it's not even just a thing that happens, it's something that gets factored into other plot points, that “Oh if we need to do this thing, he needs to die and he'll be fine,” [laughs] like it's - it's very Jack Harkness-esque, um…

R: …Yeah…

N: …in a way. Uh, but he - so, we actually learned that his story kind of begins off screen when he - he is put into this state of being and he starts out by - first by starving himself or just, you know, dehydrating himself. We're not actually - we're not given explicit which one. We know that he dies twice and my personal headcanon is that he - he dies a dehydration once and then he dies of starvation the second time, but I actually don't know what order it's in, it's just funnier to me that way.

R: Yeah you joked that,,,

N: …I think…

R: …Well…

N: …I think it makes sense.

R: …[laughs] Interesting thing to joke about.

N: [laughs]

R: Yeah, that he would not realize he needed to drink water…

N: …and then he would die…

R: …and it was like…

N: …and then he would wake up…

R: …Yeah…

N: …and then he would go, “Oh, okay fine I need water,” and then he just goes, “Meh, I don't need food,” and he dies again. Like, yeah he…

R: …I would say food never even occurred…

N: …Yeah, until this [laughs]. Yeah, until he dies the second time. Yeah, and then he - he - that's how he starts out his existence is by not realizing that human needs are like necessities and not just - and like they're a thing that he's gonna actually have to - to partake in now. Um, so there's - there's some accidental death - deaths like that but, he also in canon explicitly on screen injures himself, just takes shots that he could have avoided, and just dies for it because, whatever. Like he - he, you know, there's almost this - there's a couple different times where we either know about or we see on screen where he - he's just doing something with something sharp and goes, ”I could stab myself with this. Wonder what would happen?” Shank, dies.

R: And isn't her - our introduction to him is Oree comes home and like slips in his…

N: …Yeah…

R: …blood…

N: …because he - because he killed himself…

R: …because he's killed…

N: …Yeah…

R: …himself.

N: Just, oh, knife, slice. Like um, [sighs] it's just - it's just very - just careless disregard for the fact that his body can and will die, because it doesn't matter to him. He does not care. And - and it's not - but it's not like he's looking at this going necessarily like, “Oh I want to be- I want it to be over,” because even if it - even if he wanted that like killing himself doesn't actually end anything for him, he just comes back. Um, and there's actually - there's several different characters that kind of make jokes about uh, like if he is genuinely injured and you need him to recover it is faster to just kill him off and wait like five minutes, than it would be to try and tend to his wounds and nurse him back to health the way you would a mortal human.

R: And it does seem like dying…

N: …It's like a reset button…

R: …hurts

(6:12)

N: Yeah, oh yeah, no it hurts…

R: …It’s ‘cause…

N: …He feels everything, and then he just is better now. Um, it - it's this really wild - it's really almost um, it's not comedic.

R: It's not…

N: …It's not…

R: …played for laughs…

N: …played for laughs…

R: …It’s…

N: …at all. [sighs] But it's - it's also definitely not like this gravitas of how overwhelmingly weighty this thing is. Like it's very much - it's very much - it's very handled very matter of factly like, “Oh, okay well he will come back to health to life so, here's where we go from there,” and it - it's - I don't know. It’s interesting…

R: …I…

N: …to read…

R: …just thought of an analogy for the - an analogy for the way Oree reacts…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …to it, because if you haven't read these books us saying, “He dies over and over and yes it hurts but like, it's mostly inconvenient,” like…

N: …Yeah…

R: …I the thing that I think best conveys this is if he compulsively, repeatedly, moved a long low stool into the center of the room like everyday, and everyday trips on it and falls over and then Oree is like, “Why did you put the stool there?” and then puts it back, and then every day he pulls it out, trips over it. It's like, it hurts, it's not pleasant, he keeps going.

N: You could push him over the stool if you wanted to.

R: Clearly some pathology is going on if someone wants to repeatedly drag this into the middle of the room and…

N: …Yeah…

R: …trip over it but - but it's - he's gonna kee - it's not going to end him.

N: Yeah.

R: So that's - that's my little analogy there. If you haven't…

N: …There’s…

R: …read these books…

N: [laughs]

R: …I hope that helps rather than being even more…

N: …Yeah…

R: …confusing…

N: …it - it - in - and it's important to note that the - the - the pathology so to speak at play is a magical compulsion, or a magical…

R: …Does he…

N: …I wouldn't say it's a compulsion. It's a magical edict. It's a magical reality. He will…

R: …thou shalt not

N: …Yeah…

R: …die…

N: …Yeah…

R: …or thou shalt not remain dead.

N: Pretty much. Like - like you will live and die as a human forever, over, and over, Okay, uh or - well, forever is negotiable but that depends on a lot of things.

R: It's until you fulfill a set of conditions that are definitely not…

N: …In…

R: …fulfilled…

N: …one to two lifetimes, yeah.

R: …One - well yeah. Because this is only 10 years after…

N: …Yes…

R: …the condition started.

N: Yes, um but it's just - it's just this - and - and he [sighs]. I - I don't know. There's - there's just this kind of feel about it being this thing that he is almost - he almost feels like it's inevitable. Like of course he's gonna die. Of course he's gonna - to reset. And so, like I would almost argue the trauma here is less that he wants to die, but more that, no matter how much dying hurts, inflicting that trauma on his mortal at the moment body, is a - like he almost sees it as like a - I mean like it - it - it's being handed to him as a - a punishment, and he, you know, he - it's something like - it's almost - it's almost - I wouldn't call it a form of self-harm because it is a punishment being inflicted on him, but that just disregard for - like he could completely live a life where the only thing he would die of is old age. He could, but he won't.

R: Yeah.

N: He won't.

R: He hasn't even stayed alive long enough to find out if his body would…

N: …Yeah…

R: …age…

N: …Yeah…

R: …and a thought that I just had is that the - it's - it's not - trying to catch it. It's not self-harm. Like…

N: …That isn't really it…

R: …white - right. But he - he's - and our the trauma we're talking about isn't loneliness, but he is driven by this intense sense of loneliness, where he has been told, “Go away from us. We don't want you because of what you did. A - go be with these gnats, these humans.” What must seem like forever since his - his nature is to not change, generally speaking. It must feel like he is never going to be around anyone again, and placing in that context, the apathy and suicidal tened - tendencies make - they make complete sense, and I know you know that from reading the book, but just for those who are listening to this without reading it like, that's the backdrop. He's not…

N: …No…

R: ...bored. Like…

N: …No, there's…

R: …sometimes…

N: …stuff to do…

R: …when he kills himself…

N: [laughs]

R: …he's bored. Sometimes he's bored. Sometimes they jumped out of the tower and his body is shattered and the quickest thing to do is kill him this time. But, a lot of the time - it's harder to note since he's not a point of view character, but it - from things he said and things - conversations with other people, it does seem like it's driven by this very intense loneliness.

N: Yeah. Yeah. And it's - I don't know. That's - I mean that's really - I think you hit - I think you hit it like. He's - he's lonely and he wants to…

R: He doesn't know what he wants but he knows he wants not this…

N: [laughs]

R: …but he can't get…

N: …Yeah…

R: …not this and so he tries over, and over, and over, to get not…

N: …I…

R: …this…

N: …almost wonder if part of it is, “If I die enough times will they forgive me?”

R: Or feel sorry for I…

N: …Yeah…

R: …”If I can pack in all the suffering, will I have…

N: …Yeah…

R: …suffered enough?”

N: Yeah, no because you're right, he desperately wants to go back to them, and be himself again, but that's not gonna happen.

R: Yeah, yep not in this book.

Topic 2: Oree - Kidnapping. Begins at (12:08), CW for kidnapping, ableism, indoctrination, threat of murder, loss of autonomy.

R: Now to Oree and kidnapping. We have two main instances of this.

N: Yeah, so, uh the first one is when the Order Keepers of the city tried to kidnap her from her market stall. Um, and [sighs] it's kind of odd because, initially she wasn't actually a target until um, she demonstrated her magic by - kind of by accident.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And then all of a sudden she was not only a - a kidnapping target but they were - they were - I mean really we're putting this as kidnapping, really they were trying to arrest her. They thought she was guilty of the murder that had just taken place. Um, but they didn't say - like - like they - they very much treated it as, like there's no evidence against her. There was no really even evidence at the scene. This wasn't a human murder, so they like - who even knows how they were gonna go about this. Um, but they just - they literally just thought as “Oh you have any kind of magic about you at all. Guilty.”

R: In fairness to them apparently her entire body was glowing which would be a fairly strong level of m - oh no. Wait, was her whole body glowing then?

N: No.

R: Oh no, it was just him, it was the order - it was um…

N: Yep

R: Ah, no she was not glowing.

N: Nope, she was not…

R: …Sorry…

N: …glowing. She…

R: …She will glow later.

N: She'll glow later. Not…

R: …Mixed…

N: …now…

R: …two moments up.

N: No, but they - they literally just - so they tried to kidnap her and failed because…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …Shiny stepped in, uh and got kidnapped kind of instead. Um.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But like this is like a - a theme here. Um, and - and so it's worth noting at this point that [sighs] it's - it's a lot of - so when - when - when she - she is more vulnerable to, um antagonistic attacks, um because of her blindness and so there's this - there's a very weird like, [sighs] I don't know paradigm might may or may not be the right word here, where she's blind and working, running, selling a stall, selling things that she - that she makes and then - and she's just like - they were questioning her because she went down the alleyway at all, and then they immediately jump to, “Oh she has any magic. It's her it's - she's the killer,” and then Shiny jumps in to defend her so they grab him, but they still want to kidnap - they still want to attack - attack her. Like there's this whole dichotomy thing there where it kind of, it stops but her - the - the reason her blindness matters in this instance is that she doesn't really totally know what's going on, the whole time…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …and so from a perspective in the book, it - there's very much this like - we kind of get like this whole cacophony of what they are trying to do, what the Order Keepers are trying to do, but it's like - like - we have to almost even as an audience we have to kind of piece it together, because she's trying to piece it together as it's happening, because all she like - really all she knows is the change in the way the sound is going. Like she doesn't even know that she's being defended at first. And like Shiny came to the marketplace with her but also, like there's a - it's just a - an overlapping layer of just like, not enough information because our protagonist doesn't have enough information. But… Then the second time it happens, um…

R: …Is when…

N: …is later.

R: Yeah. So for the second time that she's taken - and really it's the second time that it's responsible for us framing it as kidnapping, uh, and not some other facet of it like the ableism that is involved, a little bit. Um.

N: Yeah.

R: [sighs] I say a little bit because they are not trying to be ableist, and I understand that people aren't usually trying to be ableist, um, but there is a degree where no one bothered to narrate to her what's happening, because no one is thinking, “We should definitely make sure that the blind person we're trying to arrest knows exactly how much we are losing this fight.”

N: Yeah.

R: [laughs] So that's - that's kind of part of why she doesn't have enough info, but then with the New Lights, they very specifically kidnapped her, stole her out of what should have been a safe place where she was staying, kidnapped a bunch of her friends, and her lover, and here it's kidnapping and indoctrination, like they are a cult. She notices…

N: …Explicitly…

R: …very specifically they are a cult, um also in the religious sense that they are an insular sect of a religion.

N: Mhmm.

R: Um, they serve - they claim to serve Intempus, um, but they are not the state-sanctioned version of it.

(18:03)

R: And she notices things like the - the feel of the cloth is rough and, I think she - she asks if the clothing is white and she's told, “No, it's a like a gray because if it were white then we'd be trying to - we'd be trying to be too pure,” so even - even though she can't see it, she can - she gets enough information to know that a lot of what are kind of classic cultish indoctrination stuff is going on.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And, then they [sighs] - in this place, and you had wanted to talk about this part…

N: …I think this is important…

R: …Um, what?

N: Yeah, go ahead.

R: You would wanted to talk about this part is that - so within the cult there's a bunch of different stuff that they're doing, and we get a little bit of it because the book really isn't how she was taken in by a cult because…

N: …Oh…

R: …she manages to fight a lot of the indoctrination.

N: Yeah.

R: But one of the things that they do to try and break her down, whether it was on purpose or whether they just didn't…

N: …Oh…

R: ….think about it…

N: …She asked…

R: …I’m…

N: …No…

R: What?

N: She asked. She asked. This was on purpose. So they - she - we see her canonically in the book. Uh, she uses a - a - a walking stick, a cane to get around…

R: …Mhmm…

N: …um, and when she's kidnapped they don't take that with them, um and one of the first things that she asks when she wakes up is for a stick or something so that she can navigate, and she…

R: …Like literally anything.

N: Yeah, and she is told no. And - and when - we say - when we say anything, in the book there's a couple different times when she doesn't have her own stick available that she just grabs or somebody finds her something. Like at one point she uses…

R: …Like a broomstick…

N: …a broken - yeah, a broken broomstick handle. Like she did not need like a hand carved perfect cane built for her. She just needed a stick. And she was told, “No, I’m sorry we don't want you to be able to navigate on your own. We are keeping you a prisoner and because you are blind, we are using the fact that you need us - you need an aid to - to constrict your autonomy.”

R: Yeah.

N: Like that was intentional.

R: Yeah.

N: A - and that also includes um, uh, they have - uh, just like - we have - we have it on here is forced labor, it's just like cleaning of the - of the - the - the temple that they're in, the area that they're in.

R: Yeah, it's - it’s forced labor because they're made to be there and they're not getting paid.

N: Yeah…

R: …So…

N: …but - but they're - but it's cleaning, it's cleaning work is what they're what - they're being told to do. And I say they, I mean her and anyone else who is a novice initiate. Um, and they don't even give her anything to navigate during that time. Like she's literally cleaning with no nothing to even know where she is or what's going on or anything, in - intentionally.

R: And then to punish her, um after some stuff that goes down, to punish her they lock her in her room for days and days, and eventually she asks just to get to be on the cleaning detail again and she is…

N: …Yeah…

R: …told no, and Dateh gloats that this means the indoctrination is working because it means that there's - that she is so desperate, that she just even wants the routine of that forced labor. And he like says it to her in face, basically. Like he specifically says…

N: …Yeah…

R: …that, “Oh see you - when you have nothing you, then want this routine,” and I don't remember if he uses the word indoctrination or not, but he is gloating about this concept in particular, that's like, “Ah we the cult, we have kidnapped you and we have broken you down.”

N: Yeah, it's - it's just not. [sighs] There's - there's a lot of things here. Where I mean really the - really - really it's just a lot of examples of the same - of the same thing where, you know, she's being her - her movement and her autonomy is being restricted because it's more convenient for someone else if she is under their control. Um.

(22:29)

R: Yeah.

N: Oh, we didn't actually put this in our notes, but I do also want to mention the offer that she was given at the end of the book. Essentially again, be restricted to the palace or die.

R: Oh.

N: Like…

R: …Yeah…

N: …be here…

R: …we'll talk about it in a different way in the next segment but, yeah…

N: …But it's worth it…

R: …that’s true…

N: …It's important to mention…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …here too. Yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah, she was given a - she was given a uh - a uh - a “good deal”, [laughs] um.

R: Yeah, the good…

N: …The good deal is you…

R: …was…

N: …might live if you agree to not be our, slave. We don't do that anymore but…

R: …It would be…

N: …you could be restricted to here forever.

R: And you can…

N: …Yeah…

R: …be in the palace forever, and if you go anywhere do anything we don't want you to do, we can - not only will you die we can kill you remotely.

N: Yeah. We can snap…

R: …That was…

N: …our fingers and end your life, like, okay.

R: Yeah, that's what she's offered and [sighs], it's interesting in terms of the way the author's framing this trauma because having kidnapping and loss of autonomy as something inflicted on her or threatened against her by every faction with any kind of power…

N: …Yeah…

R: …um, by every human faction with any kind of power, from the Order Keepers, to the New Lights, to - um, to T’vril and Sky, it - it makes it - it makes it a little bit - it makes the who's the good guys and who's the bad guys a little bit murkier, and if you want to say they're all the bad guys then…

N: [laughs]

R: …I'm not going to fight you on it on this particular…

N: …Oh…

R: … point…

N: …I think they're all the bad guys. [laughs]

R: Yeah, no. I - I wouldn't - the the way - for me that's hard because I love T’vril so much in book one, but it's hard…

N: [laughs]

R: …to be a nice person and be in charge.

N: Well?

R: Um.

N: Yeah.

R: Which is a thing I would love to get to talk about for some other book that's not this book, but…

N: It's not this…

R: …Yeah…

N: …series. I don't think we have any…

R: …That’s not this series…

N: …I don't think we have any heroes in this entire series we have antagonists at best, or not antagonists. We have anti-heroes at best. We have like…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …people who happen to be points of view at best. [laughs]

R: Like even like Shiny and Madding, like - it takes a - there's a lot of care taken from the author to push back against the idea of any of them wholly being good, even Oree.

Topic 3: Oree - Guilt / Body as a weapon. Begins at (25:03), CW for weapons, mention of sex, death, loss of autonomy, guilt.

R: Alright, speaking of uh, no one totally being a hero in this book, for Oree we have guilt in the very specific form of her body being - being a weapon. It's both used as a weapon and it just is a weapon without really any specific work on her part.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, it's mostly luck that she hasn't already killed someone by accident.

N: I was wondering about that like, she's never bled in the presence of…

R: …She's never bled around Madding…

N: …like at all?

R: Not to be graphic but like, they've never had period sex? Like this book acknowledges…

N: …Yeah…

R: …the existence of menstruation, so…

N: …Yeah…

R: …that - that could have been something that it mentioned, um, and they didn't so, okay.

N: Yeah.

R: Kind of wonder if that would count, but alright, because that's not life blood but, anyway.

N: But still…

R: …Uh…

N: …I don't think things - I don't think blood is split into categories in your body.

R: Magically in…

N: …Uh…

R: …different mythologies will have different things. I don't know…

N: …I mean…

R: …what this has…

N: …yes, but - but the property here is just blood. It's not her…

R: …Yeah…

N: …life blood, it's her blood. I would assume that it counts as the same.

R: So then we run into, how did she never accidentally kill him during period sex, but okay. Alright. I guess - I don't know. I don't know what's going on with there because, the book has a lot of sexy stuff but it is not specific in that way, and their relationship is in the past. So, um.

N: Yeah.

R: Specifically what's going on with her blood is that because she is a demon, a demon in the series being defined as the offspring however distant of a god and a human.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, or someone who is then the descendant of the offspring of a god and a human. Uh, demon blood can kill gods and godlings. Uh, anyone who's read the book and has a quibble with the use of the word gods, uh, she is told “Your blood can kill gods,” until in terms of guilt and fear that, framing it as gods and godlings is appropriate to this particular discussion. So, her blood specifically was used to kill her lover Madding, like - um [sighs]. That's the guy's name.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Dateh used her blood to like make an arrow and then that arrow killed Madding, and she - she felt like responsible for this even though she found out that her blood was a weapon almost immediately before Madding was killed, and it was kind of like, “Ah, this is your blood and it is deadly,” and then Madding is dead. There wasn't a whole lot of time. Yeah.

R: Um, it was, “Your blood's a weapon. This is an arrow made of your blood turned into a literal weapon. Your lover is dead.”

N: Yeah.

R: And then in terms of like guilt, there's also like this ambiguity going on where, because um Dateh is also a demon and he's the one whose blood was used to kill Role and several other gods before he got a hold of her, she can't be sure which gods - after a certain point in time she can no longer be sure which gods were and were not killed with her blood. And it seems as though she feels guilt as though all of the dead gods are her fault, um, whether or not it was her blood and even though she didn't kill any of them directly.

N: Yeah, she's gotta - she's really feels guilty just that anyone has died because someone used her to do it. Haku? What are you doing? Sorry our Junior Assistant Editor just tried to dig behind my back at the chair, like what? Haku, come here. Come here. Okay, sorry.

R: It’s alright. She has to pretend to die at the end of the book in order to avoid being locked up, see our previous topic, or potentially killed even for existing, and then it's not enough and so she ends up kind of like alone - or, not quite alone, eventually alone…

N: …Yeah…

R: …and away and separate from everyone she's ever known except for Shiny, who she's only known for like less than a year. Um, and, even then, it's - it's not enough, and people still come after her. Um, so as guilt we have that her blood can kill gods, many of whom are her friends, but she cares about them in general. And then we have the specific facet that her body is a weapon that is used against her lovers. As we mentioned Madding was killed with the arrowhead that's made from her blood and Dateh and the other, um - the other New Lights seem to take delight in taunting her with the knowledge of that.

N: Oh yeah.

R: And like…

N: …Like…

R: …you …

N: …just - just…

R: …like…

N: …the fact that - that her - her body is being used to kill people is like the number one leverage against her for the rest of the book. [laughs]

(31:10)

R: It's like they're swinging her arm into someone else's face and then they're like, “Why are you hitting him? Why are you hitting him?”

N: Yeah, like…

R: …Why are you hitting him?” She’s like…

N: …Like, “If you would just let me control your arm, you wouldn't hit them anymore,” and it's like “Hey [laughs]. Whoa.”

R: Not - not that any of this works. That's not how this works. Um, so, Madding dies because of her blood and then just when she thinks maybe everything will be fine at the end, she then is - is threatened with death. Um, not - she's threatened with death because somebody else could use her blood as a weapon…

N: …Like ever…

R: …therefore - right.

N: Ever…

R: …Ever…

N: …in her life. [laughs]

R: I don't know, like to me this has - I don’t know this - to me this has a little bit of the same feeling - I know - I'm pretty sure I've used this analogy before. I know I've used it with you, I don't remember if I've used it on the show before, but it has a little bit of the feeling of “We can't have gay people in the FBI because someone might charge with blackmail. Oh who's gonna - or someone might blackmail them. Oh who's gonna blackmail them? Um we are, because you can't be gay and be in the FBI.” [laughs]

N: [laughs]

R: [laughs] Uh, [laughs] for anyone who doesn't know that fun bit of American history, um.

N: Yeah.

R: That was a thing. But - but yeah, it has a little bit of that feeling of like, “So we need to use you - we need to stop other people from using you as a weapon, because someone might want to use you as a weapon.” “Oh, who wants to use me as a weapon?” “Oh, we do. We want to use you as a weapon, and…

N: …Yeah [laughs]...

R: …we're very worried that someone else will, so we should probably do it first.”

N: Yeah.

R: Except, she's a person [laughs] and…

N: Yeah.

R: So then - yeah, and the gods threaten her with death if she doesn't leave Shiny, they offer to - they give her one day to think about it, and either she can die and that - she doesn't want to do that. She's okay with dying it seems like, but she doesn't want…

N: …In that moment.

R: Yeah, right, at that particular moment she is okay with dying but she doesn't want him to - she - she doesn't want him to break. She doesn't want him to be unable to ever love another mortal, because if he never learns to love mortals then, he will never be done with his punishment. And she does not want it to be et - eternally punished…

N: …Yeah…

R: …and so again we've got guilt, where if she doesn't die, then he'll be wrecked, and it ends up being that he offers to leave so that they are not together, um. Well offers, he declares that that's what he's going to do.

N: Yeah.

R: It's just - [laughs]. It's really well handled in the text like…

N: …Yeah…

R: … her whole existence is - her whole existence is a potential weapon, and people freaking out over it and guilting her over existing, when she didn't ask to exist and definitely didn't ask to exist in this manner. It's just - it's so well handled.

N: Yeah. It's just - they - it's really [sighs]. So the way - the way this is all set up in the story - I actually really like that it starts out with her just being a person, and the more she finds out about different things about herself - I mean because she has questions about different identity things, and different like magical things, and different like personal things with herself from the beginning of the book, um, but, we start out with her not having answers to those questions, and it's kind of one of those where it's like, you get to the end and you would almost rather never have an answer, because just her having that answer exposes her to this manipulation, and this potential for that guilt, and potential for people trying to hurt her and use her, because if she didn't know, then no one would have leverage over her. Like it's - it's - it's really - it is really well written. It's really well done.

(35:45)

N: Um, and it's just very interesting to read, um. And also I will say this, this is not - even - even after having read book one where we knew about the existence of demons and then - their blood being dangerous, we - we already had that information, uh this is not a book where either it feels like “Oh plot twist, whoa,” like, it doesn't feel like that. It feels like it makes sense, like it's a natural conclusion, but at the same time, I definitely did not read it anticipating it. It was just very smoothly integral into - integrated into the text.

R: I know.

N: And…

R: …It definitely not…

N: …It just kind of flowed, and it just made sense, but it wasn't something like, there's a lot of books I read where like, you know, I'm like “Oh no. This is going to be the ending isn't it.”[laughs] And even though this one had all of the clues, this story was written in such a way that I didn't really care about trying to figure it out because there were so many other things happening that mattered, if that makes sense? Like.

R: Yeah, and we kind of have this trust that was built up with book one that the weird interstitial narration will make sense by the end and will be really cool. Like, the author had already built up that trust by carrying it off once.

N: Yes.

R: So I was not super worried about the interstitial and then you find out at the end what it's about, and it's like, “Oh my goodness,” but specifically with the revelation of her being a demon, part of what helps is the very peculiar definition of the word demon in this text. It's not, “Oh by the way you were actually born in hell,” because that - that…

N: …Yeah…

R: …wouldn't really get carried off very well here.

N: No.

R: It's like, “I'm human but my eyes are weird.”

N: [laughs]

R: “I'm human but I can see magic.”

N: Yeah, that - that seems to be her…

R: …”I'm here…

N: …personal…

R: …but I…

N: …story arc…

R: …I do magic…

N: …her personal…

R: …I…

N: …story arc…

R: …__… exciting.

N: Her personal story arc seems to be, “I'm human but - oh whoops,” [laughs] like.

R: And then it's an ever escalating series of “but,” and then “Never mind, I'm not human.”

N: Yeah. “I'm not fully human.”

R: Yeah.

N: She's human enough for the curse to count.

R: Yeah, well - well it was mortals. I don't I don't remember if it was phrased as human.

N: Oh I thought it was human specifically, only because otherwise he would be constrained to help every single animal, and bug, and insect also.

R: I was thinking about that. Um.

N: Because he has to live as a human.

R: Mortals. It's definitely, “You may call upon your power only in great need and only to aid these mortals for whom you hold such contempt.” So…

N: …Hmm…

R: …mortals for whom you hold such contempt,” uh, definitely implies humans, and that - this language is from the “Hundred Thousand Kingdoms”.

N: Yeah, it’s the…

R: …Um…

N: …initial…

R: … “You will wander among mortals as one of them unknown,” Yeah, so… Yeah, it is - it is mortals. Uh, it would be interesting for him to like truly love - have companionship with like…

N: …Like a…

R: …an elephant…

N: …or like a…

R: …or a horse…

N: …or like a dog [laughs]…

R: …I…

N: …I - or a dog…

R: …or a dog…

N: …companion…

R: …[laughs] A dog would be more likely.

N: Well…

R: …Like you know…

N: …Not necessarily [laughs] but…

R: More - of - of the animals to randomly have an extremely deep bond with, there is a certain trope around dogs…

N: …There is…

R: …is what I mean.

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (39:22).

R: On to the wrap up and ratings.

R: For the gratuity rating for suicidal tendency, ah - [sighs]. Okay, for the dying a lot, that feels severe just going with what was the most graphic depiction of one of the events.

N: Um.

R: But we also…

N: …I mean I think it's severe.

R: Yeah. There's ideation involved enough that a person who doesn't speak a whole lot still manages communicate to the point of view character some part of their ideation, and then we also have a lot of depictions of the results of that ideation.

N: I mean we have more than that. We have explicit descriptions of death…

R: …Yeah…

N: …and how and why. It's just - it's just severe full stop.

R: Okay, sounds good. Uh, okay you say severe full stop so I just want to double check, does it rise to the level of torture porn?

N: No, not in this book.

R: Okay, okay…

N: …No…

R: …just making sure…

N: ...because it's not - it's not depicted in a way that is - it that is idolizing it. It's just very descriptive.

R: Right, okay. Just wanted to make sure, because I - I agree with that, just wanted to check.

R: Uh, for kidnapping, for the gratuity rating. Um. [sighs] Weird - I feel moderate for this.

N: I don't. I think it's severe.

R: You think it's severe?

N: Yeah, uh.

R: Okay.

N: Especially with her descriptions of, um the ableism involved and how it makes her feel…

R: …Oh…

N: …and the __…

R: …yeah…

N: Like the - the terms that she could be released under and the…

R: …Okay…

N: …blackmail involved, like no it's…

R: …So that's gonna…

N: …definitely severe…

R: Okay, so I was picking up more on how much care was taken there.

N: Yeah, there was a lot of care taken but also it's pretty severe.

R: Okay, I'm in the - in the middle of a kidnapping sequence in a different book that I'm reading and this is toned down a bit from that, but yeah I think that and the other unnamed thing I'm reading, it just I guess would both be different levels of severe. So in my head I was like it's less than this other thing. Um, okay.

(41:47)

R: For the trauma, for the suicidal tendency it is integral to the plot. It just - it is.

N: Wait, did we - did we rate the guilt?

R: I'm sorry, you're right we did not rate the guilt. For the guilt for the gratuity rating, the guilt uh…

N: …I actually think this is moderate [laughs].

R: Yeah it's moderate. Like the consequence - the consequences are severe, but, the consequences are bound up in the kidnapping and so it's a whole…

N: …Yeah…

R: …mess, but most of the severe bits are related to kidnapping and most of the moderate bits are related to the guilt.

N: Yep, okay.

R: Okay.

N: Now…

R: Now [laughs] on to uh suicidal tendency is it integral? It's - it's integral, it just is.

N: Yeah. Uh, kidnapping is also integral yep. And…

R: …And the guilt.

N: [laughs]

R: Everything's integral. Uh, quick check do you feel like any of them could have been interchangeable.

N: No.

R: Okay.

N: Not and have it still be the same story.

R: For…

N: …I also I will say with these books, there is not a lot of extra.

R: Yeah.

N: There's not a lot of details in general that are like, just could have been something else and are just in - or are just in there. Like everything is pretty very explicitly intentional and - and - and necessary, just like as a series. [laughs] Um.

R: Like in the first book some of the aesthetics could have been interchangeable but in this book where the main character can't see you don't even have that…

N: …Right…

R: …Um…

N: …right…

R: …to mention it…

N: …nope. Everything is…

R: …Yep…

N: …Everything is very, very purposeful.

R: Yeah, and it’s nice.

(43:33)

R: Uh, was the trauma treated with care; suicidal tendency [sighs] I feel…

N: …I think it…

R: …enough.

N: Yeah, it's either yes or enough. Um, it's a pretty severe topic and it's there isn't really a way to have it happen on screen in a way that's not severe, but the language used to talk about it is like bare bones, basic, minimum, you get the point, it's not super like descriptive, uh in a - in a - in a visceral way at all. It's just kind of there.

R: And also, there's a lot of points where it's off screen. Like every time it's on screen it's severe but there's also even more implied offscreen and I think the combination of those two points toward it being treated with care.

N: Yeah, yeah.

R: Along with the specific language involved.

R: For the kidnapping. I think - I think it was. Um.

N: I think it - it - I would argue for enough.

R: Okay.

N: Uh, because we do - we do definitely get - it's - I don't think it's - okay. I don't think it wasn't treated with care, I think that the descriptions and the - the reactions we get because our protagonist is blind, in - in a weird way her not knowing what's going on kind of protects the reader a little bit, but also there is a lot of her own fear and confusion and anger because she doesn't know what's going on. Uh, and kind of like this helpless feeling of like things are just happening to her in a way…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: … that I don't think was treated cat - it was treated uh, callously or carelessly at all, um but I - I do think it pushes it over the level where it was treated with enough care because, eh - especially if you're someone who has felt like that or - or who - who has a disability potentially that - that makes you feel that way when people are just doing things to you or to your stuff or.

R: Okay.

N: You know, I - I think - I think the author did a really good job of - of not making it again kind of more than it needed to be, but…

R: …So…

N: …I think…

R: …enough…

N: …it’s just enough…

R: …care but it's probably going to resonate strongly with someone who has…

N: …enough care…

R: …um…

N: …but there's…

R: …similar…

N: …a likelihood…

R: …experiences…

N: …there's a likelihood that - there's more of a likelihood that it'll resonate than not if that makes sense.

R: Yeah.

N: Um.

R: Uh, thinking about how we do our care ratings it - it seems like we say no care when it's enough that even if you have no overlapping trauma it's very stressful.

N: Yeah.

R: That feels like how our rating is shaking out.

N: Yeah, our rating is definitely shaking out where if almost nobody is going to be - is going to feel this scene in a bad way then it's treated with care, If some people might but only with direct trauma then it's enough care. If some people might even without direct trauma, it's not enough, and if everybody hurts then it's no - just not - no care. [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: Which, I mean that's fine, that's good.

R: Yeah, feels like a good metric. Um.

N: Yeah, it - it makes sense, um.

R: Yeah, we didn't know it was gonna be quite like that when we made these ratings but I'm very pleased with how well they've worked out and how consistently we've been able to apply it.

N: Yeah.

R: It feels like.

(47:04)

R: Alright so on to the guilt. The - uh, the guilt it - I - I would argue for not enough care.

N: Hhmm.

R: So…

N: Okay.

R: It's either - it's either barely enough or not enough, because there is so much - there's so much of a language of like …

N: …Like it's your fault…

R: [sighs]

N: …for being…

R: …Well plus…

N: …there…

R: …it’s your fault and that - that's got a lot of - that's got a lot of ideation that's gonna overlap which I think moves it from - from enough care to not enough, and then…

N: …Yeah…

R: …I - [sighs] I think I've gotta err on the side of caution and say like not enough care. Like it doesn't…

N: …Yeah, no I - I agree. I think - I think if we're not sure…

R: …that we should err on the side of caution and say…

N: …Yeah…

R: …not enough care.

N: Yeah.

R: Like it - it's - it's well handled but, it is stressful.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, probably the only thing that keeps it for being more stressful is that there aren't very many passages with that, um, specific language, but what's there…

N: …Yes…

R: …is very specific and very focused.

R: For the point of view for the trauma and aftermath, uh it's - it's Oree…

N: …Yeah…

R: …for - for everything. This is one of those single protagonist books. We do get um, her being told other people's thoughts as it relates to certain bits of trauma.

N: Yeah…

R: …And…

N: …like…

R: …so we get Shiny's own words describing his trauma in a - in a very like, really, really good scene. We get Shiny's own…

N: …Yeah…

R: …words on his trauma but it's filtered through Oree.

N: Uh, and I think - I think it's important - so I really like the way this happens where it's not just “Oh, they told me this so,” instead we actually see on screen Oree getting - having that - that conversation, um, and so yeah, it's very much - it's very much through her perspective it's very much through her eyes, but it's through her eyes as told by you know, by - by our…

R: …Yeah…

N: …main character. It's - it's very good. It's a very good way of doing that where we the audience get to hear it directly from the person talking and the person experiencing it, uh but without it being - what with their - with it still being through our main protagonist.

R: Yeah.

(49:49)

N: Um.

R: Are you ready for the aspiring writer tip, and do you have one?

N: Do I have one? I - I don't think - I don't know if I have one for this book. Um, well, no, actually, I'm not sure if we've had this one before, I feel like the answer is no but I'm - I - I - I think - see the problem is the aspiring writer tip I want to give I think is the same one we recorded for a different book. [laughs]

R: Mmmmm, okay.

N: So…

R: I have one.

N: Okay.

R: I - especially - there - there's gonna be a fine line between not having your characters process trauma and having a book that is nothing but them talking about processing trauma but…

N: [laughs]

R: …I think this book because this - this is a very it feels like a very dialogue heavy series so far…

N: …Oh yeah…

R: …like the…

N: …for sure…

R: …first book was dialogue heavy because it's all these political games and it's her going from room to room to have all these different conversations. Here it's dialogue heavy and internal thoughts when no one is around, even where she's vaguely talking to us, um…

N: Yeah both of these books are - at least so far in the series, are very much a narrator style story and so we - we get like - we get the dialogue that they're telling us about and we get their internal. um, communication with - with us as the audience and their not…

R: …And that's un…

N: …It’s great…

R: …common…

N: …Oh no…

R: …it’s…

N: …it’s but it's - it's very - it's - it's done in a way where it doesn't feel like it's just dialogue forever. [laughs]

R: Oh it doesn’t…

N: …It feels like a story…

R: …it’s just when I was going to do like a written - my little short written reviews, uh, right after I read this, I was like “This is a bunch of really good conversations while a bunch of stuff happens in between conversations, and it's really well done, and part of what in this particular book, and again like don't - [sighs] please don't use a disability as a gimmick. Like that - that would suck. I don't want that someone to think that that's the advice, but by - in this particular book, by not having to worry about describing every room…

N: …Mmmm…

R: …that she passed through…

N: …Uh, oh, here's the thing though…

R: …it feels like…

N: …here's the…

R: …she…

N: …thing though we do get an every room description.

R: Mmm.

N: We do.

R: True.

N: That is 100% in here. Like, it's not true that just because she's blind we don't get descriptions.

R: I didn’t…

N: …Our…

R: …I didn’t mean…

N: …descriptions…

R: …we don’t get descriptions, I meant [sighs]. We get…

N: …But I'm saying it's just as description heavy as any other, like there's no - there's no lack of - of room…

R: …Uh…

N: …description and area description it's just that those descriptions are different.

R: Yeah, I don't know what my tip is then. Like, well okay, what I was going to say with the description before you popped in is that it - it - it changed the perspective on what kind of thing got described, and I really like how it did that. I wasn't gonna say that we didn't have any descriptions, um, but the way in which she interacted with all of these spaces was different from the “Now we are in a different room having a different conversation,” feel that it would have been very easy to have.

N: Yeah, transitions are different.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah, and - and we also don't get - actually, here. What about this as a - as an aspiring writer tip.

R: Okay.

N: If you're gonna give - if you're gonna have a protagonist see or experience a world in a specific way, don't try to - it's not necessary to have them pretend to cater their descriptions to the audience just have them experience the world. Because this book does that very well but I've also read books where the protagonist is - is supposed to be blind or deaf or have something else that affects their perception, and you get a lot of the book saying, “Well I can't see this, but if you the audience member were here you would see [insert description]”

R: And, it's like, “How do they know that?” The only time…

N: …It doesn't even matter, it's not even a question of “How do they know that?” It's just this whole like…

R: …It's not good writing, yeah.

N: It's this whole like, if you're gonna have your character experience the world in the way then take your audience members inside that world. Don't…

R: …Yeah…

N: …don't try to translate. [laughs]

R: It did have a couple of points of translation but they - but those were mostly when magic enabled her to actually - the saturation of magic enabled her to actually have some aspects of sight…

N: …Yeah…

R: …that she doesn't normally get to experience and those were very few and far between…

N: …And I would argue…

R: …and…

N: …those aren't…

R: …pretty well handled…

N: …those aren't what - those aren’t even a translation. I would say that that's not even happening then.

R: Oh no, no, no. I'm - I'm saying the closest thing to - okay because she explicitly says, “Oh this must be what death perce - what people mean when they say depth perception,” that's why bring it up as…

N: …Oh…

R: …potentially a translation.

N: Yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about because at no point in this book does she ever say “If you were here as the audience member, here's the thing that you would pick up on that I didn't,” like that never…

R: …Oh…

N: …happens, ever. Not even once.

R: Yeah, no I - I - I agree there…

N: …and it's just very good. Yeah that's what I'm talking about like - that's what I'm saying, like there isn't even a closest thing to it because it just doesn't happen, um, and even then like with the magic and her kind of figuring out, like her actually being able to see the magic and kind of figuring out like, “Oh, that's what people are referring to,” like even then it's not - we don't even get a description of the things that she's looking at in that moment. We literally only get, “Oh now I see depth perception. That's kind of cool. Anyways moving on,” like we don't even get to know what she's looking at. Um.

R: Like she doesn't even…

N: …It’s all about her, it's not about us and how we see the world, it's all about her and how she sees the world.

R: Like yeah, like it doesn't try and describe how depth perception works…

N: …No…

R:...for people who have it or something…

N: …Yeah…

R: …which would have been the thing you were saying.

N: Nope.

R: Um.

N: Yeah. Exactly.

(56:10)

R: What is your favorite non-traumatic thing about the book?

N: [laughs] Uh [laughs]. I - I really enjoy - oh man I hope this wasn't mine from last book. It might have been. It's okay if it is I guess. Uh, I - I really like the way the different godlings powers are explored.

R: Yep, that was yours.

N: It was?

R: I'm pretty sure that was…

N: …Okay…

R: …yours last time.

N: It's just my favorite forever I think. Um, I - I think I highlighted - [laughs]. Oh man, who did I - I'm pulling up my notes again. I need to look at this again. Um, I think - okay, I'm just going to highlight a different - I'm going to highlight a godling instead - a different godling. Um, so last - so last book I think I talked about Sieh - Sieh, um and - and his - his child like everything. Uh, so I really like Lil as the hunger…

R: …Uh…

N: …because…

R: …stealing mine. [sighs]

N: Yoink, uh [laughs] no I - I like how as the hunger, she's not just hungry for food. Anything - like she is hungry to devour anything that is hungry for something else. So hunger for vengeance, hunger for - for actual food, hunger for love. I like that she develops - at the end of the book she develops a taste [laughs]...

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …for children's obsessive hunger to be loved and cared for.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like that's great actually, because she's not…

R: …Yeah…

N: …she's not devouring children, but she is emotionally devouring their need to be loved, which means she cares about the children. [laughs]

R: Like a complicated…

N: [laughs]

R: …version…

N: …It’s really funny…

R: …of the ending of Monsters Inc.

N: Yeah, [laughs] actually. Yeah, actually yes, that. Um, it's just really funny and I really like it. Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. I have a different one too actually that I want to mention. I - I had sent this in a photo of the page to you earlier which I just think is great. Um, [laughs] at one point without uh naming identities, um, Oree is praying to the deity who's running beside her because she forgets. [laughs] She's literally just like in a stressful situation and like - like she just - she just start - she just like says that god's name out loud and he just gives her a look like, “Huh? What are you talking about? What are you - what are you doing right now? “ike what is- what is wrong with you?” and it's just very, very, very funny, because she just forgets that he's right there and she just does - and she doesn't even - like she's not saying it is like trying to reach him. She - it's just an exclamation but, it's so funny to me.

R: Yeah, um, mine, I really liked the depiction of Hando, and unfortunately I can't really say any specifics because…

N: …Yeah, no spoilers…

R: …bad spoilers. Um, I really, really liked Hando and how he was handled, and, we don't get a ton of him in the book, but what we get is all just like really, really good, and…

N: …Yeah…

R: …I liked it a lot.

N: Yeah, he's pretty good.

R: Thank you so much for joining us and we will catch you in a fortnight.

Outro: Begins at 59:45.

[Musical Interlude]

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