The Kingdom of Gods
Series 5 Episode 3
Book 3 of The Inheritance Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)
R: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (0:23-0:48)
Plot Synopsis (0:50-1:00)
N: Today we are discussing “The Kingdom of Gods” by N.K. Jemisin, where the longing for connection battles with the desire to stay true to oneself and the fear of dying alone.
Factions (1:01)
N: Hi, I'm Nicole.
R: And I'm Robin and today we are discussing “The Kingdom of Gods” by N.K. Jemisin, book three of the Inheritance Trilogy. Getting into our factions, we have Sieh, Dekarta, and Shahar. Uh, if you were here for episode two this is a different Dekarta who is named after the one from “The Broken Kingdoms”.
N:I think it’s…
R: …Then we have....
N: …I don't remember if we mentioned the original Shahar or not, so if we did this…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …is also a different Shahar.
R: No, because I think that historical discussion doesn't happen really until this book. Like, not in a noticeable way.
N: Uh, it does.
R: Not enough…
N: …I don't remember if we talked about it.
R: Yeah, don't think we did. So, Dekarta and Shahar, both named for people who died before they were born, but these are them in this book. Then we have Ramina, and Remath, Usein Darr, Intempus, Yeine, Nahadoth, Ahad, Glee, Kahl, lots of Arameri, also the Darr and various godlings.
Topic 1: Kahl - Abandonment. Begins at (0:50), CW for abandonment.
R: For our first topic we are discussing abandonment. Specifically in the - um, kind of taking the form of imprisonment in isolation but with abandonment as the catalyst for the whole situation.
N: Yeah. Abandonment is the…
R: …for cah…
N: …the traumatic angle we are approaching this from.
R: Yeah.
N: Because the…
R: …For con…
N: ...the imprisonment was the method…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …but abandonment was the - the trauma, the goal.
R: Yep.
N: Alright.
R: I feel sad about saying abandonment was the goal, but for this particular…
N: …Oh…
R: …case…
N: …This is deliberate…
R: …it…
N: …and intentional. [laughs]
R: Yep, um. Teah and nah, not great for Kahl or anyone else involved.
N: Oh, it was…
R: …So…
N: …it was great for [laughs]...
R: …[laughs] For a little while, um.
N: No, it was great for Seih. It was good.
R: For - I mean on the scale of gods a couple thousand years is a little while, uh but for Kahl, um just in case you didn't read the book, Kahl is the son of Sieh, we will get to that later, who was locked away in another dimension for at least two thousand years. Locked away so well that no one knew he was there to even look for him, um, and he had no one else to interact with. Sieh was made to forget. Anapha was the only one who knew, and she is dead. Has been dead for several thousand years.
N: Yeah, well mostly dead. Slightly alive.
R: She has - she has been not able to tell people that she did this…
N: …I know…
R: …for several thousand…
N: …I just really…
R: …years…
N: …wanted to make the princess bride joke.
R: Oh, okay. Sorry, I was not in that zone.
N: [laughs] Um.
R: Um.
N: So…
R: …So, Sieh being forced to forget, you had brought up the point that it was good for Sieh. [laughs]
N: Yeah, because it's the whole reason that he still exists.
R: Mmhmm.
N: This was a question - so here's the thing. This is a trauma that was definitely a - I mean literally the catalyst for, um, the power and purpose and essence of Kahl that he then became. Um, it def - it literally defined his identity, and - and in these books your - your god or godling’s identity is everything that they are. It is the source of their power. It is the thing that sustains them and is the thing that allows them to function in a very real way. It is everything about them as a personality, as a physical form as a - a source of - of free will and energy. It's everything, and so the fact that Kahl’s essence, so to speak, was shaped and formed by this trauma, is huge. Um, but on the other hand, if you think about it this way, and this is a major spoiler so - I know we - I know we tell every - you - we tell you all that that these sections are spoiler filled, but this is a major, major spoiler, so heads up. Um, the fact that - that Sieh would have - would have died, would have disintegrated, would have just poofed out of existence if Kahl had been allowed to just exist without being locked away, is huge, and so Enefa really had a choice here between killing her firstborn by allowing this other child to exist, or locking him away and both of them live. And so, it's - it's wild but thinking about it in that context, this was very much a deliberate trauma that was meant to mitigate a different, I would argue greater trauma, to someone else, um.
R: I would say…
N: …But also…
R: …it was…
N: …but also Kahll's existence is - is an irresponsibility in and of itself.
R: Yeah…
N: …by - but on…
R: …because…
N: …Anapha’s part.
R: Right, um, because isn't - is it - uh he is the offspring of Enefa and Sieh right?
N: Yes.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: So, Sieh as the personification of childhood…
N: …Childhood and innocence specifically.
R: Childhood and innocence, yeah, and so he can - he - he - it's weird, because he can have a lot of knowledge but innocence, it's a very different quality…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …and we have talked about books that um, deal with loss of innocence before, and we're going to talk about innocence - loss of innocence in the section too.
(7:04)
N: Mmhmm.
R: But, um - the - Sieh couldn't survive being a father, and…
N: …No…
R: …so Kahl as the new person was abandoned and it - it's interesting because I - I - there's - there's an emotional tendency that it's - it's clear that the gods have here…
N: …Yeah…
R: …which is to - to value the people you already know and are already close to even if some new person might be equally valuable if you had the same like duration of relationship with them.
N: Uh.
R: Like…
N: …Uh, yeah I would…
R: …Like…
N: …argue - see that - this is where…
R: …I think it’s at least a little bit at play.
N: I…
R: …Like…
N: I mean it might be a little bit at play. I don't know. That would be - that would be probably a question for the author because I don't think we're actually given enough information because Enefa is not around for her perspective.
R: No.
N: But if you look at it…
R: …I…
N: …like I don't actually think this was choosing her favorite necessarily - or - or - even if it is, it's not only that because this…
R: …No…
N: …literally was a case between, one of you snuffs out of existence or both of you survive. And Enefa picked the…
R: …Eh? Okay…
N: …both of you survive with one of you having major trauma, but both of you surviving. Enefa chose the solution that kept both of her children alive. If she…
R: …That’s true…
N: …had been choosing one over the other she could have snuffed Kahl out of existence.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Or - or just abort - like, essentially aborted the pregnancy. Like she could have just done that. She's also…
R: …Right…
N: …the goddess of death. Like, she - she could have just decided like, “Nope, I choose you. You need to go,” and instead she - she chose the only solution where both of them survive, because also Sieh would not have - Sieh would not have survived being trapped in all alone
R: That's true.
N: Like…
R: …I - I do think…
N: …Children do not survive…
R: …at least a little…
N: ...being abandoned by their parents.
R: I do think that at least a little bit of, favor the person who's already there, like is in place especially with how much emphasis is placed on him being the oldest of the godlings.
N: Well he is canonically her favorite.
R: Yes.
N: Canonically from every single person's perspective who comments on it, but also…
R: …Yeah…
N: …but also there's - there it - there really is that element of, one of you dies, or both of you live, but if you both are…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …to live, the father can't know about the child. And like - like there's so much of a - like this is - this is a very deliberate - this is the trolley problem.
R: Yeah…
N: …This is a very deliberate - like if you have the trolley problem and you set it up so that if the trolley…
R: …Oh yeah…
N: …goes on one track it will kill somebody. If the trolley goes on the other - there's three tracks in this situation. If the trolley goes on the other track it will kill the second person. But if it goes down the middle, one person will be damaged but alive, and the other person lives.
R: Yeah.
N: Like, what do you choose? Do you, you know, do you kill one person? Do you run over the head of the other person? Or do you just run over their feet? Well you just run over their feet.
R: I think this felt a little bit like the duration of relationship kind of a thing. It - I think maybe it felt to me like a little bit of that was in play because this is the kind of um - like…
N: …It's the kind of book…
R: …existential - well it's it's the kind - it's definitely the book for that whether or not it applies in this exact scenario…
N: …Yeah…
R: …and also it's just a conversation that comes up with my partner like…
N: [laughs]
R: …randomly…
N: …Oh, okay…
R: …all the time, it’s…
N: …and I'm not saying that…
R: …oh…
N: …that didn't happen, I'm just saying that logically…
R: …Oh yeah…
N: …logically this…
R: …There is some complexity…
N: …was the everybody lives solution.
R: Mmhmm.
N: It's just everybody lives and one person is…
R: …I just…
N: …so abandoned that they become the personification of vengeance, like…
R: …But in terms of trauma I'm - I'm uncomfortable with a solution that says, “Oh everybody lives because we put one of you in solitary confinement”...
N: …Good…
R: …and…
N: …you have empathy. [laughs]
R: Oh good. [laughs]
N: Like, yeah…
R: …No I…
N: …Like yeah.
R: …No absolutely…
N: …No absolutely….
R: …I - I…
N: …This is a situation…
R: …I feel…
N: …where every solution is a problem. There's no good…
R: …Yeah…
N: …solution in this particular instance. Like I think…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …I feel like the only - the only possible potential, and I don't even know if in - if in canon this would even have been a potential; the only possibility would have been that a different godling or god adopts, uh, Kahl as as a surrogate…
R: …and never tells…
N: …father and - and no one ever knows except the person - except Enefa and whoever she chose to lie with her. Uh, uh they would be the only two people who would know and she would make Sieh forget anyway.
R: Right.
N: Like that would be the only solution but I think canonically, if I remember correctly in the book, and if it doesn't explicitly say this it's definitely implied, um, there are only the four of them at the beginning.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And so…
R: …there’s no one else it could have been.
N: There's literally no one else it could, have been except I - I feel like like maybe she could have gotten Nahadoth to - to maybe do it, but the whole point of why like - the whole point of why she had a child with Sieh was because the other two were ignoring her. Like I don't think there was - I don't think there was a, “This is fine,” solution. There was only bad options.
R: Like A Tempus - Intempus doesn't reveal information, but he also doesn't …
N: …He also…
R: …lie…
N: …does not lie, [laughs]. Yeah.
R: [laughs] Right.
N: Even when he really probably should, like from a…
R: …Yeah…
N: …human - from a human perspective, when he really probably…
R: …And…
N: …should…
R: …Naha…
N: …and he cannot.
R: Nahadoth might agree while he's in one mood and then…
N: …and then…
R: …just not…
N: …just not care…
R: …agree later.
N: Yeah, exact - yeah. ‘Cause he's the god of change. He might literally just be like okay this is good now but tomorrow it's bad.
(13:16)
N: Or…
R: …Sure…
N: …”I don't feel - well you're not my real child so today I don't care.” “Wait, I'm what?” like, yeah like that's…
R: …but…
N: …there's…
R: …Given…
N: …we don't know, we don't know.
R: Yeah.
N: Um.
R: And getting back to the themes of abandonment here, um, this abandonment and solitary confinement by magical means um, shaped Kahl into…
N: …Princess?
R: …the personification of vengeance…
N: …Yeah…
R: …which I…
N: …Talk about aftercare.
R: [sighs] Yeah, and…
N: [laughs]
R: …I - I really, really [sighs]...
N: …fuzzum, come here…
R: …I like how it is an exploration of the idea that this kind of event - like there - there's a lot of - there's a lot of real world discussion about how something like solitary confinement changes who someone is as a person and some people who've been through that talk about how they are - they talk about it as now being a completely different person, and - to the extent that this is a magical analog of a really thing - of a real thing that really is done to people, it…
N: …A magical…
R: …It - it…
N: …personification…
R: …really expresses that…
N: …of the analog.
R: Right, it - it…
N: …Yeah…
R: …expresses that and it - and it shows it in this like really interesting way, and in that context the way this ends for Kahl is - is very sad because…
N: …Oh yeah…
R: …like they - every single thing that happened to him was someone else trying to pick the least bad of two bad options and him being on…
N: …He’s the virtual…
R: …losing size of it - a side of it every time.
N: Yeah.
R: Which I - I think is a - I would be shocked if it were a point made accidentally by this…
N: ...Oh…
R: …book…
N: …no I…
R: …given how…
N: …I assume it’s…
R: Yeah.
N: This book - this whole series, eh - this author is so intentional. Everything is - everything is intentional even things that you - this is definitely an author that’s like everything is intentional even the things that you think were con - inconsequential the first read through. Um, it's - yeah. It's - it's so - so deliberate.
R: And - and speaking of the trauma being abandonment, we also - frequently the story just like leaves and just doesn't worry about Kahl for a while [laughs], and then just like only checks back with him when it's forced to in a way. I just - it feels like the - abandonment becomes a tricky one to have a lot of concrete examples of because the biggest one is that he's constantly not there, and - yeah, so it's - it's - it's well done. It's resonant. It's all throughout the book. Um, but there isn't much more to say about it because it's so well shown.
N: Yeah, it's definitely one of those where, um, it's very…
R: …They did a good job…
N: …it's very viscerally imma - uh, um, depicted. But it's a good thing.
R: Oh yeah. Just viscerally something not being there is, tricky.
N: Yeah.
R: But, they did it.
N: Alright.
R: Stopping recording.
Topic 2: Sieh - Loss of Innocence. Begins at (17:00), CW for loss of innocence.
Main Character 1st topic “Loss of Innocence” (17:05-27:17)
R: Onto Sieh and loss of innocence. This is perhaps the most literal depiction of loss of innocence [laughs] that we've had so far…
N: …Or that we will ever get I think.
R: Per - yeah, probably, yeah.
N: This - this whole series has a very - a very - um a very physical interpretation of almost every concept if you were here for us - with us for book two then you saw that in the uh, morass of godlings…
N: …Yes…
R: …of every kind. Um, so Sieh is the deific personification of childhood and he is the eldest child and that comes up a lot, like the eldest godling, and I really, really like the nuance in how he discusses the way in which certain actions do or do not um happen in a childlike way, and it seems to be kind of hinging around like responsibility. Like if he does something - if he like - like a - as an example, if he like did something that helped somebody, and he just like, wanted to do it and it helped somebody that's totally fine, super childlike, great. But if he does it…
N: …If he - if he…
R: …because it’s like…
N: …if he does it because…
R: …it's the responsible thing to do, like…
N: …or if…
R: …that’s…
N: …someone is telling him to do it, or if he - if he keeps doing it past the point when he feels like it, now he's being grown up and mature and responsible; which is interesting because actually this book makes a distinction between making matured response - choices and making responsible ones. And responsibility literally kills, if I remember correctly, responsibility literally kills him. Maturity though…
R: It's fine.
N: It's fine, as long as he's still following his whims.
R: Right.
N: If he can make a mature response in the moment he's good to go. If he thinks it out and thinks ahead of time, “I will be mature because I have to -” now he's - he's done for.
R: Yeah like an impulsive maturity. Um - I - I…
N: …Is great…
R: …really did like that.
N: It’s…
R: ...yeah…
N: …really funny actually. [laughs] Um, like he's - he's legitimately genuinely kind, and thoughtful, and caring, but if it's not impulsive and if it's not in the moment then it's - it's potentially a problem. Like he - there - there are several points in this book, and other books to be fair, but this is the first book where we really have it like as a - as a point of view um, where he thinks ahead of time, “This moment will come and here is the response that I feel like I'll make right now, but if I commit to that I will lose myself, so I won't commit right now and we'll see what happens.”
R: Right and then sometimes…
N: …And then sometimes…
R: …he does what he thought he would…
N: …he does it and sometimes…
R: …and sometimes not.
N: Yeah. Yeah, but it's the - and - and also I love that he can plan things out if he's planning for them to be play.
R: Right.
N: Like that's great. like he can…
R: …Like at a park can…
N: …plan something but if he can make it a game, it's - he's - it doesn't matter if it's - if it's responsible or mature or - or - or anything else. If he can turn it into a game it's all fine.
R: Yep. Uh, and like doing childish things can help restore him, but…
N: …Yes…
R: …then also uh - leaning in towards with that loss of innocence, what he would need to be restored from um, with the way that being responsible hurts him, one of the most responsible things possible in the - in the world of this book, is having a child, um…
N: …Yeah…
R: …which like makes sense totally in the context of this world, and…
N: …And it makes sense…
R: …so…
N: …in the context of his persona too.
R: Absolutely, yeah.
N: Because - because inherently once you have a child, you are…
R: …The focus ships.
N: We - you are responsible for them existing.
R: Right.
N: Even - even if you give up your rights and you're not responsible for their life anymore in some - and we - and we don't with - that part is not actually explored in this book. I'm just taking it a step outside.
R: Sure.
N: Like even if you gave up your right to - to be part of a child's life or to - to be responsible for them.
R: In an existential way you are responsible that they exist and…
N: …Right…
R: …that level…
N: …and inherently…
R: …that responsibility…
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: That inherently is - is hit - is um…
R: …His __…
N: …his antithesis and so it - it - it hurts him, which is really funny because growing up is hurt to him.
R: Mmhmm.
N: So literally having a child ages him and then all of a sudden he's - no - he can't happen to his nature and so he loses his magic, it's just a whole thing.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, but it's so logical and it's so well put together, um - I - I mean all of the godling and god powers are. Um.
R: They're very complete, like they each…
N: …Yeah…
R: …have a gestalt that's very much like kept too, uh…
N: Yeah…
R: …and the low__
N: …is funny.
R: The way that all those interact with each other, um has a lot of really cool dynamics in the book.
N: Yeah.
R: So with - so with generally how loss of innocence is handled here we both have Sieh trying not to lose his innocence and then we also have him being very wary of the innocence of children specifically because in addition to being the god of childhood that also makes him the god of children.
(23:14)
N: Yes.
R: And so, he - in one of his interactions with - with Shahar, um, he's in one of his crueler moods very early on, and he - he does something where he's assuming that she's going to be a monster like the rest of the Arameri, and he does something that makes her lose a piece of her innocence, and so he has to give her something in recompense in order for it to not hurt him...
N: …Yeah...
R: …if he did that to her and, so I think it's important that it's - that loss of innocence here is not focused only around Sieh, but also on his impact on the world but then if he takes that too seriously then that wraps back around into responsibility.
N: Right. [laughs]
R: Like it's a very…
N: …Like to…
R: …complicated…
N: …like to…
R: …dynamic…
N: …in order for him to set up that situation he had to turn it into a game. It had to be fun for him.
R: Mmhmm. Right.
N: And - and I - I think also like, I don't remember if he's explicit - he's not - he's not explicitly like the god of cruelty but…
R: …No, no…
N: …he is definitely the god of - of not caring about repercussions, kind of?
R: Well so I think - uh I was thinking a lot about he - how he embodies the very natural child, the literal child like narcissism that…
N: …Oh yeah…
R: …for - in the real…
N: …He is the center …
R: …world…
N: …of his…
R: …like…
N: …own world which means he's the center of everything that happens and everything he does, and if it doesn't…
R: …Right…
N: …impact him negatively…
R: …He doesn't worry about it…
N: …it's fine and he just doesn't care, yeah.
R: Because children have a kind of narcissism…
N: [snaps]
R: …that is in the real world it is that they - their brains haven't matured enough to be able to think about how things affect other people and that slowly going away um, like it - like it - [sighs] - I mean…
N: …I mean - I mean the idea - the idea in - in a very real, and in this book very literal way, the idea that everything you do impacts something else is a - a - a mature concept.
R: Mmhmm.
N: It's a maturity of your brain on a physical level, it's maturity of your emotional, it's a - it's a sign of emotional maturity and just seeing the impact that you have on the world and on other people, and a huge part of him, and his power, and his set, and his identity, and his - who he is - is the ability to just go “Mehh,” [laughs], “Whatever”...
R: And it’s…
N: …”This is…
R: …it’s weird…
N: …this is what I wanted. It's fine.”
R: It's weird because having - having made that turn like relatively recently in my own life, um, like having - having known that it was a stage of childhood development that I was in while I was still in it, and then afterward - like before I was like, “This is - what do you mean this is a thing? I don't have this.”
N: [laughs]
R: And then three years later I was like, “Oh nope, nope I did, totally did, very different now.”
N: Yeah.
R: The thing that happened is that my brain did more stuff um, [laughs]. So I just…
N: …Yeah…
R: …it having - having recently like thought things in relation to that while I was in both sides of it, it made his delicate dance and his attempts to like straddle this line very finely, like I felt that in a very visceral way, because I'd had uh - I'd been lucky enough to have an awareness that it was going to be a thing and then watching it happen in my own head was very trippy, um, and - mm-hmm.
Topic 3: The Arameri - Cycle of Violence: Colonialism Edition. Begins at (27:20), CW for slavery, colonialism.
R: For our third topic, we have what I pithily called…
N: [laughs]
R: …cycle of violence, colonialism edition. So this has been a theme throughout all three books but we're talking about it in the third one, because it's the point where we have the most information, the most examples and we kind of get the culmination of this .
N: Mmhmm.
R: So we weren't ignoring it in books one and two, that just wasn't the space for it yet. With the Arameri we have the perspective of “We conquered you and there has been no war with us since we conquered you, so we should stay in charge,” uh which is very - [laughs] very colonialist from the uh…
N: …Also wrong…
R: …from - from the con - from the colonizer side.
N: Yeah, yes.
R: Uh, it's the Arameri’s modus operandi, and it's so just - like the mindset just so permeates everything that there's a bit where Shahar as an Arameri with a little bit of power, her instinct is to threaten violence against a people historically conquered and oppressed and killed by her people.
N: Mmhmm.
R: She is to threaten violence she doesn't intend to carry out, in order to get what she wants and she feels like it's fine because she's not gonna do it and Sieh has to point out that the Dar don't know that she's not going to do it and it only has weight because this wouldn't be her first - her family's first genocide and it wouldn't be her family's first time attacking and oppressing these people in particular.
N: Yeah, like this is not an empty threat even if she at the moment doesn't feel like carrying it out.
R: Yeah.
N: Like, she's a hundred percent relying on - um, on the - the structural supremacy of her conquering people and the fact that they are still in charge.
R: Like if someone habitually hits someone, it's not better that they pretend they're going to and then don't one day, like…
N: Yeah.
R: [laughs] …and that's the - the thing she's trying - she's doing, but at the scale of nations.
N: Yeah.
R: And then…
N: …Yeah, it's - it’s very well done in a way - but - but the thing about it is, it's not done in a way that is directly - at least as far as I could tell, I don't think it's done in a way that's directly mirroring like one to one anything in - in real history. Like…
R: …Yeah…
N: …it’s - it's definitely its own - its own story, its own take, its own implications, and - and the - the godlings included kind of throw into more of that, um, and there's - there's actually - because we're talking about this only in book three, like I - I want to throw - I want to kind of call back to…
R: …Sure…
N: …book one and two just because, like we waited until now to have this discussion. Um, this is also implicit in and - and - and a direct - not just implicit but explicitly stated as - as also being kind of the - um, the - the reason why when the godlings were freed initially there was fear…
R: …Right…
N: …from the Arameri because their thought was “Oh, well someone has to be the conqueror, someone has to be enslaved, someone has to be in charge, and if they're free we're gonna be the slaves, because we have to have one, because…
R: …Right…
N: …this is how our system is set up, and they have to use our system because we are the ones that are - are more important. We are the ones that are good at this,” and so then in book two when that didn't happen, uh, there was just echoes in book two of the Arameri that we saw kind of saying like, “Why didn't you enslave us? Why didn't you take our perfect system and flip it on us?” And the godlings were kind of like, “What are you talking about? Just because you were trash doesn't mean we want to be trash. Like, we don't - like we - like we don't want that. We just want to live and be ourselves, and be true to our own natures, and exist…
R: …But also…
N: …and we don't…
R: …__…
N: …want anything to do with your - your - your - your awful like conquistador slavery system that you've built. Just leave…
R: …I was gonna…
N: …us alone.
R: But there's definitely also elements of like it taking a while for the gods to figure out how to exist without…
N: …Oh definitely…
R: …that.
N: Oh definitely.
R: Yeah.
N: No, they - they - there was definitely like, they had to kind of refigure out who they were without the slavery but like - but there was this whole - there was this whole back and forth of like, “Well someone has to be in control…
(32:38)
R: …Right…
N: …and now that you're free why didn't you do that?” A - and - it was just like this really not - not necessarily like a um - it's - it’s almost - it's really almost like a uh - out of context it's almost a - a call out to that mentality and that fear of like, “Oh well, you know, we're just if -” like - because that's a real thing that happens, uh I mean we're american.
R: Yeah.
N: It happens all the time here in this country where you know if it's like, “Oh well this - this minority group is gaining more people in positions of power,” and so then the person in the oppressive group literally is - is scared because they treat the minority group badly and assume that every atrocity historically that that group has done to that minority is going to happen to them, and it's a real conversation that like in our country happens because then they kind of get people that look at them and say, “Hey, this isn't the only way of doing things,” [laughs] like…
R: …Yeah…
N: …it's - again it's that - it's that point of like just because you're awful doesn't mean that everyone else has to be awful and it's - it's so well - that conversation just happens in such a clear real way in this series and it's just it's very good. It's very well done. It's beautiful to read.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, it's all - it's really - it's really great.
R: It reminded - the way you described that - that way that cycle happens um, in real life like it kind of it reminded me of this thing that I um read that said that um cis people think cis is a slur because they use trans as a slur.
N: Yeah, absolutely.
R: Yeah, it's - it's that - that little like, “Oh no, you're doing the thing to us…
N: [laughs]
R: …that we did to you. And it’s that…
N: … “Oh no because you have to be - we have to figure out what you're doing.”
R: Right.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: Or - or even um, like white people being upset with cracker or karen. Like no, these aren't slurs guys.
R: ‘Cause…
N: …Like hey…
R: …no, these aren’t.
N: Just because - just because somebody else came up with a word to describe a certain way that you were acting doesn't mean you're being oppressed.
R: Yeah, it doesn’t.
N: Like it's - it's the - it's the same conversation. It's - yeah.
R: Yep, um. So then we have kind of part two because…
N: …That…
R: …you mentioned…
N: …that makes me want…
R: …__…
N: …karen memes with the Arameri ‘I want this.’
R: Uh.
N: i don't think that'll ever happen, but I would laugh very, very hard if I came across one in the - the internet wild so to speak.
R: [laughs]
N: [laughs]
R: Uh.
N: If anyone loves this series and is good at memeing hit me up, tag me on twitter. [laughs]
R: Uh.
N: Please. [laughs]
R: Don't - don't tag me, tag Nicole. Uh [laughs]
N: [laughs] Tag specifically Books That Burn #Nicole because I want to see these. [laughs]
R: Huh, um.
N: I love this. [laughs]
R: You - you enjoy this.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, okay so then part of this in these books being a cycle of violence is, um, on the Dar’s side, and to be clear the Dar are not the only people the Arameri have oppressed.
N: Correct.
R: They just are kind of centered in these books because Yeine is - was a Dar when she was a human.
N: I think it’s more than…
R: …um…
N: …that but that is…
R: …Well…
N: …they are kind of the center society that we learn the most about.
R: Rhere is - there is more than that but in terms of like plot importance to all the characters involved, there is a sense...
N: …There is an element of that, yeah.
R: There is - there's definitely this complicating element where one of the Arameri’s got - a gods literally was a Dar while they were alive. There’s…
N: …That’s - yeah…
R: …definitely…
N: …I’m saying…
R: …a complication…
N: …like - I don’t…
R: …now that…
N: …think that’s - I don't think that's all of why. I think it's just…
R: …No, no, no…
N: …part of it.
R: That's not all of it.
N: Yeah.
R: But that is definitely part and so um the Dar their perspective is kind of, “Well, you the Arameri conquered us and you tried to keep us from being ourselves so we should conquer you to stop you from conquering others ever again,” and there's a - there's very much attention in the book where the - we mostly have the Arameri’s perspective on this or the perspective of people who are closer to the Arameri than the Dar, and…
N: …Yeah…
R: …so there's this definite like fear intention of, “Oh no! are - are the Dar going to do to the Arameri what the Arameri did to everybody,” which is anything um, just general conquest to specific genocide wiping out an entire culture.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, and since the Arameri have been so terrible and now the Dar have access to godlings, um, even without the involvement of Kahl, the Arameri know that the Dar would have possibly have godlings and godlings are how - how they are married did all their bad stuff. They've got this like, real fear intention that it's going to be just as bad for them as it was for everybody else, and the - I really, really like the way the book handles it in the way that it kind of makes a real effort towards stopping that cycle of violence in a - a - a very purposeful way. Um, and if you have - if you're intending to read these after listening to this episode like I don't want to spoil that because it - it just - it's very good. I feel like it was appropriate.It works super well…
N: …Mmhmm…
R: …and um, I wanna leave that since the main thing I have to say about it is that it's super well handled.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Um. But I - just this mentality of, “Oh no, what if you do exactly what we did to everybody else for thousands of years,” [laughs]. Like the worst thing for the Arameri would be if literally anyone else acted like the Arameri.
N: Yeah.
R: And that's why colonialism is terrible. [laughs]
N: [laughs] Uh, not the only reason, but it's…
R: …That’s…
N: …definitely uh…
R: …that's one of the reasons, but yes…
N: …Once of the big reasons…
R: …yes.
N: Yeah.
Promo for Too Many Captains (39:25)
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Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (49:19).
R: Onto the wrap up and ratings.
R: For abandonment. For the gratuity rating, this is [sighs] - this is off screen, mostly? What do you…
N: …Uh…
R: …think?
N: Comp - I would argue completely…
R: …Like technically the abandonment is completely off-screen…
N: …technically…
R: …and then when the um, ricochet from the abandonment occurs, uh I guess that's - yeah that's a separate trauma…
N: …That
R: …that isn’t what we’re talking…
N: …that is a separate…
R: …about…
N: …trauma. The - yeah. The actual…
R: …Yeah...
N: …abandonment is completely backstory.
R: Backstory and off screen.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, to the extent that any of it technically is still occurring during the timeline of the book .
N: Yeah.
R: Um, yeah. That's [sighs] - yeah, just - it's hard to show someone not doing something. [laughs] Uh. [laughs](
R: For the loss of innocence, um, in terms of…
N: …This I - I would argue…
R: …I think that the scenes with the kids early in the book make it somewhere between moderate and severe.
N: I think it's severe.
R: Okay.
N: I think it's severe and depicted to be severe.
R: Yes, purposefully.
N: Like very, very, very, very, very intentionally.
R: Yeah.
R: For the cycle of violence.
N: Also severe.
R: Um? Yeah, yeah uh, we talked about a very particular thing of it. Yep, um, definitely.
(41:53)
R: Now for integral, interchangeable, or irrelevant. The abandonment is integral. Yep, loss of innocence is integral. Cycle of violence is integral, yeah.
N: Yeah, yeah there's no…
R: …I…
N: I - I don't think there is any trauma that I can think of across this entire series that is less than integral. I can't think of a single thing that you could interchange and not have it directly impact the plot of the story.
R: Checking your notes, I don't know if you can check your notes for the previous two books, did we list everything as integral for those two?
N: I'm looking at that right now actually. We…
R: …Uh huh…
N: Well we said - actually no, we did say that ostracization and atmosphere of cruelty were interchangeable, but I think we…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …also had like a really long - in - in book one, I think we had a really - if I remember correctly we had a really long conversation about that because I thought that they were all integral…
R: …Yeah…
N: …and then you argued that like the super specific precise examples were inner - were inter - were interchangeable…
R: …Yeah, yeah, that’s right…
N: …but the concept of it was integral…
R: …So yeah um…
N: …and then we wrote down interchangeable because you could have technically given different examples. [laughs]
R: Yeah. [laughs]
N: Yeah, like…
R: …So…
N: …for this…
R: …in general…
N: …entire book - this entire series…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …everything we've listed is integral.
R: Yeah, in broad strokes the top - the traumas are integral, and then, yeah I…
N: …Like certain scenes could have definitely been written differently, but that's not the point.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: And I - I definitely - I really like that in the series because it feels like there's no wasted space, it makes it - not - not that it's bad if a - if a book has interchangeable or irrelevant traumas, but if a book doesn't have any integral ones and only has interchangeable or worse only irrelevant traumas…
N: …Right…
R: …um that - that starts feeling bad…
N: …We actually…
R: …but this…
N: …had this discussion before we started recording…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …uh, because Robin was kind of saying, um, that books where all of the traumas are - are less than integral start feeling just…
R: …They start feeling like you just want me to feel bad…
N: …Yeah…
R: …without like an aim to it…
N: …Yeah…
R: …or worse where the point is wanting the reader to suffer, but with this it feels like you want them to understand suffering…
N: …Yes…
R: …uh, of different kinds which has a very - has a very different feel and, um, I appreciate it.
N: Yeah.
R: So…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...again…
N: …This is…
R: …now…
N: …this is…
R: …bad…
N: …definitely…
R: …not that it’s bad.
N: This is definitely a book where the characters go through things - in a series not just a book, where characters go through things in incredibly viscerally depicted and - and - and existential or conceptual ideas are depicted very literally, um, and so you see physical literal effects on characters for things that normally in our real, tangible world uh, would have been purely conceptual, um.
R: Mmhmm.
N: So…
R: ...Yeah…
N: …I - I mean things like - I'm not gonna - not - not plot spoiler things, but just as a couple of examples, we have a minor character who I don't think we ever actually have as a character that we talk about specifically, but we have - there's a godling uh, named Lil whose essence…
R: …Mmm…
N: …and powers are derived from hunger.
R: Yeah.
N: And that doesn't - that isn't necessarily just food but it can be. But she is
R: …Yeah…
N: …hungry all the time, forever because that's who she is. She is hunger.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And - and she's not - and it's - and it's - sometimes it's food and she is hungry to devour, but also, you metaphorically look tastier to her when you are hungry for something. Maybe it's food…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …maybe it's power, maybe it's money, maybe it's security, maybe it's - doesn't matter. If you are…
R: …Yeah…
N: …hungry for something, you start looking more, and more like a meal to her and she wants - she is now hungry for you. And it's…
R: …Yeah…
N: …it's very - it's just - it's things like that where - but she's not that - she's not just a like, a thought. You know…
R: …Right…
N: …she's a real concrete character with a physical form whose teeth get longer and sharper and hungrier when she's around someone who's hungry for something. And it - it's - it's - it's very, very good and it's very well depicted and every single - every single godling and character is like this. It's - just - it's just really good. [laughs]
R: Yeah.
R: And as to things being treated with care, I think the abandonment, there are places where…
N: I think it was…
R: …There’s a…
N: …treated with almost too much care.
R: Yeah, I was gonna say…
N: [laughs]
R: There's a lot of - there's a lot of description and raw emotion but like we don't…
N: …The whole…
R: …we don't…
N: …It’s…
R: …have a - like it definitely dances around it a lot.
N: I would…
R: …Like this…
N: …I would argue that this character arc because it is not - because the trauma does not define the character's essence, and that's all I will say.
R: Right.
N: And the character arc is around this character's essence based on the trauma but not about it, I would argue that this particular depiction, this character's trauma of abandonment is also abandoned in the text intentionally, which I realized…
R: …Yeah…
N: …might sound like I'm talking in circles but I promise I'm not.
R: No like, we mentioned that abandonment is difficult…
N: …But I think it's intentional…
R: …when - when…
N: …I think we don't…
R: …Yeah…
N: …explore the de - abandonment, we explore other things in the book because the point is that this character has been abandoned and that includes by us the reader.
R: Yeah, like it's hard to know…
N: …I don't know if…
R: …it’s always hard to know what…
N: …the author…
R: …to - to what…
N: …would state…
R: …degree…
N: …that way…
R: …intentional…
N: …or not, I have not clue, but that's how I read it. That's how I interpreted it.
R: Like ‘cause at a certain point it's hard to know whether a lack of description is care for the reader…
N: …But I think it depends on the…
R: …or if it’s…
N: …trauma, and I think in this trauma…
R: …No, no, no…
N: …I think it’s…
R: …for this one, yeah…
N: …I think it's mirrored in how the character is not talked about also. I think it's very, very deliberate. I think this piece is something that we…
R: …Okay…
N: …know but we don't get a chance to acknowledge it as - as an audience, and I think that that's deliberate because a - again, everything in the series is so literal and so physical, that I think this character was abandoned and then we as an audience are forced to abandon them again by never actually talking about that abandonment. Like I think that that's intentional - I think - I think it's intentional and if it wasn't…
R: …Yeah…
N: …it played out beautifully anyway.
R: So the one thing that makes me shy away from describing with care is because it - because where it exists it is so literal…
N: …I mean it's - it's either…
R: …I think it…
N: …care…
R: …could…
N: …or it's…
R: …a lot…
N: … zero care. It's one of the two.
R: I feel like it's zero care, because when it's talked about and depicted, it - it seems like the kind of thing that could resonate very badly for someone who…
N: …Who - who is…
R: …has…
N: …waiting for the character…
R: …similar…
N: …__…
R: …parallel - yeah…
N: …Yeah…
R: …who has similar parallel traumas, you will not get catharsis for this.
N: No, not even a little.
R: You won't.
N: Yeah.
R: And so I think it's zero care. Um…
N: …That makes sense…
R: …I think…
N: …to me…
R: …it’s intentional. I don't think it's bad, but I do think it's zero care.
N: Yeah, no that - that makes sense. I just - I would - I just - are - I'm arguing I guess that it's - it's definitely not in the middle.
R: Oh no, not in the middle, but I - I think none.
N: Yeah. Alright, I'll - I’ll agree. I'll agree with that.
(50:15)
N: Um.
R: For loss of innocence, um.
N: Uh.
R: Care.
N: I - care.
R: Either enough care…
N: …I think - I think - I think - I think enough care, because I think this particular character has so much care heaped upon them both by other people and also by themselves, trying desperately to care for themselves. Like we see this character losing their innocence and intentionally uh undergoing self-care routines to retain who they are…
R: …Yeah, I also…
N: …and figure out who they are. Like I think it's - I - this character gets, and this trauma gets so much care and so much after care every time and, sss - la - it's just so good.
R: Though I do want to make sure to keep in mind um loss of innocence both inflicted and received, and it's inflicted that I'm concerned about. I'm not sure if the points where they…
N: …I…
R: …either inflict or almost inflict loss of innocence on someone else, that's what I would use as my gauge of whether this is handled with care….
N: …I would also…
R: …__…
N: …argue that that's not the aspect we talked about it based on.
R: Okay, alright.
N: So - so yeah so there are instances of loss of care in this series that are not handled with - or loss of - instances of loss of innocence in this series that are not handled with care, but I would say that the overarching loss of innocence arc trauma…
R: …Okay…
N: …is…
R: …I…
N: … handled with care. That was - that was what we actually talked about in our…
R: …Sure, yeah…
N: …our segment.
R: Um, I'm good with that. I’d prefer a little more to settle at enough, but also like this isn't gonna [sighs].
N: This is a hard one.
R: Eh - because the bits where it's - it's talking about loss of innocence, aren't the things that would inflict loss of innocence on the reader, um.
N: Yeah.
R: This - this is a very, very sexually explicit series. We haven't talked about that whole much up until now. This is a very explicit series with a…
N: …This…
R: …lot of sex…
N: …this is…
R: …a lot of discussion about sex. It's really well done…
N: …This is not a…
R: …but…
N: …book for children.
R: This is not a book for children.
N: Which is partly why I think that this character who is a - who is inflicted with the loss of innocence, is treated with care, because…
R: …Yep…
N: …if this character and their actions were in a children's book, this would 100% not be treated with care, but this is not. This is in a book for adults with adult…
R: …Sure…
N: …themes and a - and it's geared toward adult experiences…
R: …Mmhmm….
N: …and adult…
R: …and so given a certain…
N: …understanding of a lot of different concepts, and so I think yeah…
R: …Given a - given a baseline of I wouldn't recommend this to anyone under 16, yeah, this was treated with care.
N: Yeah.
R: Okay, cool. I'm good with that.
(53:12)
R: For the cycle of violence, I [sighs].
N: I think enough.
R: Yeah enough.
N: I think it does…
R: …Um…
N: …a really good job of kind of shielding the reader from, for lack of a better phrase, backlash trauma if this is - if the - if - if the characters being - if - if the characters who this violence is being inflicted on, resonate with you as a reader and with your - your past history for whatever - whatever part of who you are and your identity and your history this would resonate with, I think it does - it does a pretty good job of kind of shielding the reader from feeling the same feelings. There's - there's enough that's like out of context - there's - of our real world. There's enough of like, this is a fake situation and we have magic, and we have these other things that - that distance the reader from feeling like, “Oh I - that could be me.” I think there's enough of that but also there's - there's also enough of explicit conversation and context for the world and in the books where, it's definitely not just treated with care. Like I - like it's definitely something where you read it and you know what they're talking about.
R: Yep.
N: There is no ambiguity. There is no, “Oh well, maybe they didn't mean it that,” like none of that.
R: Mmymm.
N: It is incredibly in your face, and it is incredibly upfront, and honest, and straightforward, and characters who straight up say out loud “I am continuing this cycle because I'm supposed to, and…
R: …Right…
N: …because it - it is what my people do,” or what - like there is enough like graphically - graphically lose - used here kind of in a weird way but, enough like graphic…
R: …The - the…
N: …depictions of - of this cycle of violence…
R: …There’s enough…
N: …and colonialism…
R: …there's enough…
N: …it’s…
R: …specific discussion of it that even though we don't see in the book many - we don't see in the book…
N: …You don’t…
R: …the history…
N: …watch…
R: …that led to all of this, but…
N: …Yeah…
N: …it definitely conveys the weight of that. Um.
N: Yes.
R: So I'm good with enough care.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: ‘Cause I - I think there's enough protection for the reader without trivializing the…
R: …Yeah…
N: …characters in the story if that makes sense.
R: Yep.
N: Like the trauma…
R: …For the…
N: …is given full weight, but there's definitely like a barrier there.
R: Yeah.
(55:48)
R: For the point of view, it is Sieh except for a very short segment where it is someone else.
N: Yeah, pretty much for the whole book.
R: Mmhmm.
N: I think like for all of these.
R: Yep, yeah um, the only reason that there's a - a plot specific reason where very briefly it's not Sieh, um but I'm gonna just say that, but for - for at least all the traumas we talked about, those are just from Sieh 's perspective in this particular book.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, but when we need to we do get someone speaking about their perspective on other specific things related to these traumas, um in a good way. Uh, for - and that yeah that's just it for all three of these.
(56:39)
R: For the aspiring writer tip, do you have one?
N: Um, I would say, kind of based on the series as a whole, if you're writing and you have an idea for a depiction of an idea or a concept, just because it doesn't match the way your “supposed” to display it doesn't mean that it's not going to make sense to your readers, and not to be afraid of experimenting with how you show different things. Um, like this book for example, this book depicts conceptual ideas as people, um but at the same time, those concepts - like these - these characters have free will outside of those existential ideas and those conceptual ideas, and the characters in this book are given the free will to choose between following their natures and not.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And they have the ability to - to deny themselves so to speak, um, but that doesn't change who they are. That doesn't change the essence of them, and so even when a character deliberately says “I am not going to act according to the driving force inside me,” it's - it doesn't ever stop you as a reader from - from knowing and feeling the weight of - of - of what that character is bound to. And…
R: …Yeah…
N: …that is such a - a - a wild thing to put in a book in - especially because, at least a lot of the books that - that um - that I've seen that try and put like, you know, I've seen other books take concepts or - or emotions and turn them into characters, and I have never seen a book do it as well as this one. Like, I've seen books where, you know, you would definitely read them and kind of go, “Oh well, I mean I guess it made sense,” but in this one it - it works, and I - it's also…
R: …Yeah…
N: …I also know - I know that this is like a thing that at least a lot of writers here, where you know, like well, there's a - there's a particular way to do this, or there's - there's a way - there's a trope that you have to follow here if you want your - your readers to get it, or, you know, if you don't do it this way you're wrong, or if you don't do it this way it's not the right genre, and there's like…
R: …Mmhmm…
N: …there's - there's rules that you're - that you learn and - and there's - there's, sometimes backlash if you break those rules and I would - I would argue that - that this book is a very good example of - of you not needing to follow those rules if you can make it make sense.
R: Yeah.
N: And, you know, don't like - don't be afraid of - of - of playing with concepts like that.
(59:37)
R: Favorite non-dramatic thing about the book. Uh.
N: Non-traumatic? [laughs]
R: Yeah, that's gonna be the trick. Lots of things…
N: …I don't think there is anything [laughs] in this book that is non-traumatic.
R: There…
N: …Everything…
R: …uh…
N: …has the weight of some trauma. Every action is painful for…
R: [laughs]
N: …everybody in this entire series, and…
R: …Okay…
N: …I don't remember what I said for the other two books but I - I stand by that statement.
R: Sure, okay, um, uh, okay.
N: [;aughs]
R: Trauma adjacent thing I appreciated, I liked the solution for the cycle of violence. I think it was well handled.
N: Oh yeah.
R: Um okay…
N: …That’s a good one…
R: …but my - okay my favorite - my favorite non-traumatic thing, um at least not one of the traumas we talked about here [laughs] um…
N: [laughs]
R: …is the coda, and the events they're in, and the way this wraps up for Sieh and Dekarta and Shahar. I…
N: …Yeah…
R: …I love the ending. It's really good. It could have - it so easily could have felt trite or cheap and it just…
N: …It doesn’t…
R: ...it doesn't.
N: No, it…
R: …It makes…
N: …feels really good…
R: …sense.
N: It - it feels great. It feels appropriate. It's exciting, and it just - it's like there - there is a, like there - there is a short story, like a sequel novella to this trilogy that where - that I haven't read yet but I am going to, but even without that if it - if I didn't have that and this was the only - and I only had these three books, be like, “You know what? I'm good. I like where this wrapped up. This was amazing. Um, I'm content. I'm excited for the characters, but ah - I'm good, I have enough,” and just that kind of like peace and calm especially after such a tumultuous…
N: [laughs]
R: …trilogy in a good way…
N: …Yeah…
R: …um, is nice and I like that. It just - I don't know, kind of like the - some of the best aftercare in a series this just dense with darkness, um, I really like it.
N: Yeah.
R: Have I stolen yours or did you figure out a different one?
N: Oh no I have a different one.
R: Okay.
N: Um, I - I think I'm gonna actually stick to - this one is again, not necessarily a trauma we talked about but there is so little in these books that is not traumatic for somebody. [laughs]
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, e - even the good parts are like, there's something almost every time. Or - I say good, like positive for the characters, like positive things…
R: …sure…
N: …so the characters still have traumatic repercussions. Um.
R: Like even the - even the temple scene with Dekarta and Sieh isn’t…
N: …Isn't tr - isn’t trauma-free, yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: Um.
R: Yep.
N: I just - I might even have said this before and I don't care, I really like the - the powers and the way they're handled. I really like the logic behind the magic in the world. I really like the lore so to speak…
R: …Mhmm…
N: …of the gods. Um, I really like the way the gods and the godlings' powers are handled. I also really like, um this isn't really a spoiler, it's just kind of intrinsic to the matrix in this book - or of this book, but um I really like the logic behind which godling gets which magic and what - how - how their natures are defined.
R: Mmhmm.
N: I like that it's not arbitrary. I like that it is kind of a mix of who they're of - their parentage and also their experiences, um, and I also enjoy that the godlings have to figure out what their natures are bound to. Uh, this is not a series where the gods wake up and go, “I am the god of love,” [laughs] like no…
R: [laughs]
N: …they have to find it for themselves, and if they mess up and do something that is contrary to their nature, they get hurt, and they don't even know why yet, and it's like - it's just a very tangible, physical, conceptualization of this, and I really like it, and - and as somebody who in real life, I'm an incredibly tactile person. Um, I - I dance. I do martial arts. I play instruments. I - I have synesthesia. I - I feel smells as textures and I feel like sound as sensations like physical touch in my ear. I - I like glass blowing, and metalworking, and wood craft like, I'm - I'm physical. I'm a very, very incredibly tactile person and I really just appreciate how tactile the powers are and how they feel when you're reading them. Like…
R: …Yeah…
N: …like in a physical sensation in my head kind of a way. Like I - I'm - I - I think in 3D. I pick things up in my head and turn them, and rotate them, and touch them, and move and shift them, and pull them, and - and - and this book really scratches that like sensory itch for me, which is weird because it's a book and I'm reading it. [laughs]
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, but I just - I really like that, and it really like - it hits all those like tactile sensory points in my brain that usually only like picking up something physical and touching it, and moving it, and pulling it, would actually do but this book does that for me and I - I really appreciate it, and I really like it. This book - I say this book ,this whole series, all of it.
R: Mmhmm. Cool.
R: Alright. Thank you so much for joining us. This is the last book of this trilogy, so uh we'll catch you in a fortnight. Patrons, look for the epilogue…
N: …Next week…
R: …and everyone else thank you so much for joining us.
Outro: Begins at 1:06:02.
[Musical Interlude]
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
N: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.
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N: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.
R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.