N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin, and this is Books That Burn. Today we are discussing “Coraline” by Neal Gaiman. Alright, we have our factions. For the real world, we have Coraline’s mom and dad, we have Miss Forcible, Miss Spink, and their dogs. We have the old man, also known as Mr. Bobo, and his mice. In the other world, we have the Other Mother and the Other Father, we have Miss Forcible and Miss Spink and dog-Bats. We have the upstairs man who is technically Mr. Bobo? But we don’t talk about it, when he’s the upstairs man in the other world? And then we have the rats. And crossing between both worlds: we have Coraline and the cat. The cat doesn’t have a name, the cat explains in detail why cats don’t need names. Uh, for anyone who is listening to this after seeing the movie, but has not read the book, listen to the episode, you’ll be totally fine, the movie is an amazingly faithful adaptation. Just one note, Whybe is not a character in the book. His role in the movie is to be there for her to - for Coraline to externalize her dialogue. It’s a really smart choice for the film, but he is not in the text.

R: Alright, for our minor character spotlight, we have the ghost children and the theft of self.

N: So, these kids are - it’s explicitly stated, the ghost children are what happens when the Other Mother is - is done feeding on you. They are food.

R: Mmhm.

N: Coraline is the next meal.

R: Yeah, and one of the children describes it as, “She will take your life and all you are and all you care’st for and she will leave you with nothing but mist and fog. She’ll take your joy. And one day you’ll awake and your heart and your soul will have gone. A husk you’ll be, a wisp you’ll be, and a thing no more than a dream on waking, or a memory of something forgotten.”

N: Yeah. They - so we kind of get this um, I guess the implication is that - that these are all the kids that decided to stay with her, for whatever reason? Like she didn't shove them in the mirror and then just leave them there. They decided to - to abandon the real world. But they’re - they’re literally just like a, they’re - they’re not even ghosts necessarily? Are they? Like, they’re just….

R: Well, they are - they are the ghost children. Like they don’t remember their names. They have memories of parts of their life and other people, but...

N: I would argue that they are a memory instead of being purely a ghost, just because the thing that they don’t have is their soul.

R: Ok.

N: Ok. Maybe I should have been clearer. This is a mythological opinion that I have.

R: Sure. Not explicit in the text.

N: No.

R: They do...

N: ...This is - this is not a - this is a - this is a Nicole has a semantics question and thinks that these are not actually ghosts because she thinks they’re the memory of ghosts because she thinks the ghost part is the soul, which is the thing that has been taken from them, so I was mostly asking if that was your read

R: ...Well, I...

N: ...on this also.

R: I - I was thinking of soul as more of like soul in the sense of like if someone like is really good at music you might be like “Oh, they’ve got like a lot of soul”. I was thinking of it when they say like,“Your heart and your soul will have gone.”

N: Yeah. I think she literally plucked their soul out from them, and then...

R: ...So then you think...

N: ...I think they literally have

R: ...it’s not...

N: ...lost this thing like a physical object.

R: Ok. I mean I guess Coraline...

N: ...Coraline goes and picks up…

R: ...does look for...

N: ...physical objects.

R: That’s true. Ok, ok. So they are the memory, and then - ‘cause my objection to them not having souls anymore was going to be that at the uh, at the end in the dream when she’s talking to them, they’re much more together, and so they must have their souls but you're right. The soul literally is the thing that they’re looking for. So they’ve got a memory and they’ve got a soul. She puts the two back together and then they’re free.

N: Well, ‘cause that’s why they don’t remember who they are. Because...

R: ...Mmhmm, and then they start to...

N: ...yeah. ‘Cause she literally took who they are. So this is really - this a stripping of identity in the most literal sense?

R: Mmhmm.

N: And - and it’s just very, [sigh] man. It’s very understated.

(6:02)

R: Yeah, like it doesn't - it doesn’t dwell on it. I mean it’s not - it’s not even as explicit as, like most descriptions of like alzhiemers or something are. Like, it’s very - it’s very minimal and, I mean that - that quote that I read is the most explicit thing.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, and even that is like - it’s very poetic. The writing…

N: [sighs] Yeah...

R: [sighs] The writing in this is so good, it’s so pretty. Anyway, I will talk about that, [when] we’re talking about what we like. Um.

N: [laughs]

R: [sighs]

N: It’s poetry in books- so, here’s one of those things where I want to actually kind of quote the author…

R: ...Mmhmm?...

N: ...Probably - it’s probably a paraphrase, but essentially uh, I know he’s stated - I know he’s stated in interviews that this is the strangest book that he’s ever written...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...because, children read this as an adventure story and adults read this as a horror story. And I think that the - the implications of the ghost children being trapped there, at - because their souls have been taken, but they are still there...

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...I think that is a major part of what makes this feel like a horror story to - to adults.

R: To adults.

N: Yeah, ‘cause even like the other two things that we’re gonna talk about are - they’re - they’re honestly...if...

R: ...They’re more common in other works.

N: They’re more common, but they’re also more just like... things that as - I mean as sad - I mean as our podcast is demonstrating, they’re things that don’t necessarily cross it over into the horror genre even when they’re really awful.

R: Right.

N: And they don’t - and they’re things that are I think more common just in the real world and - and not - not common in the real world and that makes it fine, but common in the real world as in like, adults just kind of look at it and go “Oh yeah, that happens,” where as like the - the theft of - of your literal self, of who you are being plucked out, and also Coraline going “OOh, hide and seek, alright let me go find these!” I mean, she’s not quite that just, cavalier about it, but - but just the idea that her response is “Oh, all I have to do is find them and that - and then it’s all fine,” that is - that is definitely something that I think is - is one of those things that shoves this book into horror territory for - for adults reading it for the first time.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But I also think that this is one of those things where it’s handled delicately enough and it’s handled succinctly enough, that...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it makes sense that it would be something that would pull a child in and go - make them go “Oh, this is an adventure,” She’s rescuing them. This is good, this is cool, you know. This is interesting.

R: Yeah.

N: So, I just - I just thought that was interesting. And also, it’s - I think it’s interesting that the author has had that kind of feedback.

R: Mmhmm, yeah. I mean it, it definitely - most of the horror is fridge horror and implications. Like it’s not gory.

N: No, not at all.

R: Like, yeah.

[Musical Interlude]

R: Moving on, to Coraline with mind games, doublethink, and gaslighting; mainly gaslighting.

N: Yeah. So, we should be clear, because we have two - we have two - two worlds here that we’re talking about. And we have conveniently enough, we have two uh, two um, traumas that we’re discussing. This particular trauma is located in the other world.

R: Mmhmm.

N: The Other Mother’s world.

R: Yep.

N: And she, so she wants - she wants Coraline to stay with her, and she wants - because she’s hungry and Coraline is her food...

R: Mmhmm.

N: But like she - I find it really interesting that she does this. She essentially tries to do like, as little work as possible for herself. So she’s trying to convince Coraline to - to want to be there. Like, there’s this impli[cation]- I mean it - there’s not even an implication, it down right shows us that she very well could just, like wait for her wander down the tunnel and then just pick her up and drop her in a box and seal the key and then shut the door, and then that would be it.

R: Yeah.

N: Like she - totally could have just been like “Hup, ok. You’re my prisoner, now I’ve trapped a meal, I'm just gonna wait!” But there’s a lot of uh, spider symbology, there’s a lot of like, uh, explicitly stated webs that she’s weaving, both physical and - um, metaphorical, and she...

R: ...and saying that she’s like a spider and spiders don’t need to build anymore of the world than their web.

N: Yeah. And things like that where, she very much wants Coraline to choose her, to pick her, and her chosen method of doing that is really to - to just make Cora[line]- or try and make Coraline feel like that her parents have literally, physically abandoned you. And - and I think that this is kind of, I don’t think it’s unintentional that she picks that thing. I think that she is choosing the thing that she is trying to convince Coraline of, based off of how her parents actually do treat her.

R: Oh, absolutely, because if someone's problem at home is that they've got, like, helicopter parents who won’t leave them alone...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...then…

N: ....then, hey look...

R: ...she might do the opposite...

N: ...an escape for this...

R: ...tactic, right...

N: ...exactly. Um, but she like - she - there’s just a lot of instances in this book, and it’s not very long, and we still get a lot of different instances of where she is essentially saying “Hey, this thing, I’m - thats’ happening to you - here’s how I think you should interpret it, and it’s just another reason why you should come stay with me forever.”

(12:21)

R: Mmhm.

N: Like, “Check out - see look. You can’t find your parents? Clearly they’ve just abandoned you, you should stay with me forever.”

R: She even makes the same...

N: “Oh, you didn’t like the food, clearly I just feed you better, you should stay with me forever.” Like, that’s - that’s it. That’s the whole end game.

R: She even makes this, like, weird pantomime thing where she shows through the mirror how it looks in the other world, and it’s like…

N: ...Oh my gosh...

R: ...Coraline’s parents walking in and loudly announcing how awesome it is that they don't have a kid anymore.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: Like, and then she tells her that mirrors always lie.

R: Oh yeah, yea, tells her that later.

N: Like, well you just, ok well you told on yourself, but alright.

R: Mmhmm. I hadn’t actually thought about those two things in conjunction, because they are far enough apart in the book.

N: Oh, I a hundred percent read that and went “Ope, well, clearly, uh, I mean did you mean to tell her that this is what you are doing?” Like, but I mean Coraline’s...

R: ...I mean speaking of

N: ...already demonstrated that Coraline already knows.

R: Speaking of, like, gaslighting and contradictions like, “Look, I’ll show you this thing in the mirror...Mirrors always lie.”

N: Yeah.

R: Uh, we then have “nobody sensible believes in ghosts, that’s because they’re all liars.”

N: Oh yeah!

R: Um, are they...

N: ...oh my gosh...

R: ...do they exist, and you can’t trust them? Or do they not exist. Like, “Nobody sensible believes ghosts because they’re all liars,” that would be a coherent thought. But, “Nobody sensible believes *in* ghosts because they’re liars,” that’s doublethink.

N: That’s doublethink and also, it is intentionally set up so that she will doubt herself and - and think of herself as a liar for talking to the ghost children and our - from our first topic.

R: Also the moment where she’s like “We love the sinner and hate the sin,” I’m like, I - I am so sorry.

N: You have a particular reaction to that one.

R: I am so sorry to anyone I ever said that to when I was a Christian.

N: Oh no.

R: I am so, so sorry. I’m so sorry.

N: [laughs]

R: It’s so bad. Especially when it’s like, if you - you know, good child and you’re compliant, and then we will “understand each other perfectly” and will “love each other perfectly”...

N: ...Oh yeah, like if you just become the thing that I want, then I’ll understand you...

R: ...We’ll have no problems.”

N: Yeah.

R: Right.

N: It’s so gross.

R: Ah, it’s just, mmm. Because it’s like, “I love you. I just hate everything about you and all your life decisions, but I love you.”

N: Yeah.

R: It’s - it’s really terrible, uh, and it’s not even something that he made up, it’s a thing that people actually say, and again, I am so sorry. Um, but it - it's just, also like when she’s saying that - when the Other Mother is saying that Coraline’s parents must have abandoned her and gotten bored or tired, and she’s like, “I will never be bored, I will never abandon you.” Like, in the house are *three kids* to whom she made the same promises and then abandoned.

N: Yeah, literally just...

R: ...and we already...

N: ...ate them up and just...

R: ...met them...

N: ...and walked away.

R: Yeah, we’ve already met them by the time she says this. Like, this is right after.

N: That is an interesting point. Does she not know where they are? Because she...

R: ...I don’t think she’s given it another thought.

N: Oof. Ouch. Well.

R: I - I don’t think - I don’t think she’s given it enough thought. Like, she’s using their souls to power the illusion, explicitly.

N: But once - once she’s gathered their souls, they’re just...

R: ...right, they just exist...

N: ...effectively dead to her...

R: ...to power more of the web to trap more kids. Like, over time if she had...

N: [laughs] oh no...

R: ...more souls like the house would get bigger and bigger...

N: ...Right. That’s what I...

R: ...and more elaborate...

N: ...was assuming...

R: ...and more copies probably.

N: Yeah.

R: Again, that’s not explicit in the text, but it’s...

N: It’s implied, for sure.

R: Yeah. Yeah, it - it’s the mind games. So many mind games. And we - we’ve talked about the main points of the mind games.

N: Yeah.

R: And I don’t really have anything else to add for this section. Like, our - our last topic is going to be the biggest one with the most to say.

N: Mmhmm.

R: But - but in general, ah, this is showing a thing that happens a lot that is, “If you just do exactly what I want, we won’t have a problem.”

N: Mmhmm

R: And that kind of language, really gets used in the real world all the time.

N: Yeah.

R: And, it just like, squishes people, and...

N: ...Oh it’s awful, ‘cause you - you hear it and you think “Well if I was -”, you - you look at it yourself and you are like “Well, if I was just this thing,” or “If I was better,” or “If I was something they could bother to care about or understand or love, then we would all be fine,” but it’s not all on you to do that and - but it’s set up - but it’s set up to make you think that it’s your fault that they don’t treat you very well.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And that’s absolutely the set up that is - that is happening here.

(15:34)

R: Yeah. ‘Cause then you’re like “If I could just be this other thing that isn’t me, then it will be fine.” That - that can be anything from talking less to talking more to like, trying to be less queer, like it’s so - it’s so many things.

N: It’s so pervasive and it works for literally anything that anyone wants you to - to edit about yourself to suit them. Yeah.

R: Yeah, yep. And - and having it explicitly contradicted? I think it’s really important that the reader doesn’t get gaslit during this book.

N: Oh yeah!

R: Because, every time you have one of these things from the Other Mother, other than the very first “Look I’m awesome, I made food, can we put buttons in your eyes?”

N: Right.

R: Other than that first introduction, which again almost immediately has, “Well you can have this if we can mutilate you,” um, other than that very first introduction, every time the Other Mother lies, we’ve already - we already have the evidence that she’s lying.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And I think that’s important...

N: ...Oh yeah, absolutely...

R: ...for the reader.

N: Well we - it’s not even just that. We don’t only have the - we have the evidence that she’s lying but also, Coraline’s inner monologue directly says “Oh no. That is incorrect, you are lying to me.”

R: Yeah.

N: And I think that that’s - that’s important too. Especially because this is a book for children about children. Well, I guess it’s not for children - it’s not explicitly only for children but it’s a book about a...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...child and it’s written for children to be able to access, and it’s very - I think it’s very good, uh, demonstration of a concept.

R: Especially if it’s going to be very close to real language that people really use.

N: Oh yeah. Very - yes very much so. It’s very much a - a “Look, see this thing? That’s a lie.”

R: And we’ll definitely talk about it in the wrap-up, I just wanted to highlight it here.

N: Yes.

R: Ok, so actually moving onto the next section now...

[Musical Interlude]

R: Alright, so Coraline, dismissal and - of her desires combined with neglect. Both from the parents and from the Other Parents. So, our own guess on the podcast of how old Coraline is, is we think she’s like between eight and ten. We don’t get it explicitly ever in the book, but a lot of the way her parents interact with her kind has the feeling of, she’s starting to have autonomy and they haven’t noticed.

N: It’s not even just that they haven’t noticed, it’s - it’s that combined with when she tries - well it’s - honestly I wouldn’t even, I wouldn’t...

R: ...They’re not taking it seriously. Like they...

N: ...Well, I think it’s...

R: ...definitely...

N: ...more than that. I don’t think that she’s just starting to have autonomy, I think that - that they have abandoned her for so much for so long that she just has almost forced autonomy.

R: Yeah, like they - they totally dismiss her from rooms, often without looking at her.

N: Oh my gosh. Yeah.

R: They’re like “Oh, you can’t go in that nice room.” And like, I understand there being like a front room or a parlor, where you don’t want someone playing in it, but it sounds like she can’t even...

N: ...Well, they don’t want...

R: ...walk through it...

N: ...they don’t want the furniture getting - they don’t want things getting touched, they don’t want things getting messed up, they don't want things getting moved or broken or wear and tear appearing on them. Also, like the furniture in question is from a deceased grandparent? So like it’s - it’s an heirloom, it probably has sentimental value to one of - to whoever’s grandparent, to whoever’s parent it was.

R: But she doesn't get all that context, she just gets...

N: ...Oh no...

R: ...Oh you can’t...

N: ...She just...

R: ...be in there.

N: But I mean like - but that’s not even as bad, honestly I wasn’t even thinking of that as like a negative thing. That’s just, “Hey, this is the room that we don’t touch unless we have company. Ok? Ok.” and like, that’s actually - that feels fine to me.

R: Well no, I was more thinking of it in the, like she gets - I was more going to bring up, she gets weirdly inconsistent rules. Because...

N: ...Oh, I gotcha...

R: ...she’s not allowed to be in there, but when her dad is trying to get her out of his face, he’s like “Count the windows, find everything blue,” and he says like one other thing, and she says, “Well, what about that room?” and he’s like “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go in that room, that’s fine.” Like, it’s fine as soon as it’s to help get her out of his face.

N: Actually, I would like to posit a different theory.

R: Ok, sure.

N: I think it’s the mom that just doesn’t want her in there, and the dad doesn’t care.

R: Oh definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

N: I think it’s explicit that her mom says, “No we don’t touch that furniture.” Actually, I’m going to make a conjecture and say that it’s probably the mom’s parent who died, the mom’s mother who died.

(22:42)

R: Yeah, maybe. But anyway, in terms of like, a dynamic of...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...we - we explicitly have a dynamic of - like of one very strict parent...

N: ...Oh, yeah!

R: ...and one *super* lax parent.

N: Yeah.

R: And they’re - they’re both ignoring her.

N: [laughs] Yeah. Um, the mom is - and the mom like - there’s a weird parallel here where both the mother and the Other Mother just run right over and dismiss things that Coraline cares about in view of what they want.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like when the, when her real mother takes her shopping, she asks essentially for like, one item that she would like to have, she would like gloves, I think it was gloves...

R: ...Yeah, it’s gloves...

N: ...that are bright and shiny and cool, and silly. And her mom basically goes “Nah, you don’t need those.” And like yeah, but that, that’s true, she doesn’t, but that’s not the point, and the Other Mother - the Other Mother, it’s “I want us to play. You don’t want to play? Well that’s not what I want.”

R: Yeah, and I - the gloves, I think it’s - it’s clear from the way it’s described, that this is like buying everything they need for a school uniform. And so, she’s like “I wanna have some individuality, I don’t want to be all like my peers even though i'm in a uniform”, and her mother says basically like “That’s a silly thing to want,” instead of saying “The dress code says you can’t wear the gloves, do you want to have them to wear at home?” Like, something.

N: Yeah.

R: Like something that acknowledges why Coraline can’t have what she wants for a reason other than “I don’t want to bother.”

N: Mmhmm.

R: Thinking about the movie, the movie - like just super briefly, you might - if you only watch the movie and then you’re coming to the book, you might not get as much of that feeling because the movie makes it look like maybe they’re saying no to all the stuff because of money problems. The book doesn’t have that characterization. And so we don’t - in this text, we don’t have any of that context or that extra to say that there is like a real reason for her parents to just dismiss what she wants.

N: Yeah.

R: And that doesn't reflect either necessarily positively or negatively on the movie, it’s just.

N: Oh no, it’s just...

R: ...It’s just a difference...

N: ...it’s a different medium. It’s a different medium. Yeah.

R: And here, in the book, they - they don’t show it, like. We don’t - like, we don’t know what their parents do, we just know that they’re always busy.

(25:33)

N: Well, we know they're busy on the computer.

R: Well yeah, her dad’s busy on the computer...

N: ...that’s it, that’s all we get...

R: ...like her mom’s busy on the computer? Yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: So, there is a - we kind of had an interesting thing in our notes here, because - so she - so she doesn’t want - she specifically doesn't like food that her parents provide, because her mom just makes something frozen and then just like heats it up, right?

R: Mmhmm.

N: And her dad makes “real meals” according to her.

R: But…

N: ...But…

R: ... it’s a real meal, where like...

N: ...it’s a real meal...

R: ...half the pizza’s under[cooked] and half the pizza’s over[cooked].

N: Yeah, it’s a real meal that he like tries from a recipe and he - he tries to make it like really complicated and fancy and it - and she explicitly says essentially, that she doesn't like recipes but also there's kind of this implied, like Robin was just saying, there’s kind of this implied, like it’s not just that she doesn’t like it it’s that he just doesn’t make it very well and it’s gross, and she doesn't want to eat something that's gross.

R: Yeah.

N: And - but then, I found it really interesting that like, so she is left to kind of - so then when she basically says like, “Well I don’t want to eat that,” her parents are like, “Ok, well fend for yourself child.” And...

R: Yeah. And I made the point that she’s always able to fend for herself because they put food for Coraline to eat when she doesn’t like what “we” eat, but Niki made the counterpoint that, why didn’t just make what Coraline wanted to eat...

N: ...Or...

R: ...and if she’s...

N: ...or it’s like not even why didn’t they just make that, I just - I’m just - my argument...

R: ...Uhuh, sure...

N: ... is that, “Yeah, sure, little kid, you can forage in your own home,” is not providing for a child.

R: Yeah.

N: That’s my argument, is that yeah - and also I don’t actually think that they explicitly have food for her for when uh, she doesn't want their food. I don’t think that’s what’s happening.

R: Oh, you think that she’s...

N: ...I think that...

R: ...just eating stuff?

N: Oh no, I think that the food that she’s preparing is the food that her mom buys because she would have made it if the dad didn’t make dinner.

R: Hmm.

N: And yet...

R: ...She doesn’t like it when her mom makes it.

N: She doesn't like it when her mom makes it because she thinks it’s boring, but she will microwave her own frozen pizza.

R: Interesting. Or whatever it is, it’s not explicitly pizza.

N: Well there is - there is one where she talks about microwaving a frozen pizza...

R: ...About a frozen pizza?

N: ...That - yeah, that was - that is actually a food that I remember ‘cause I went “Ooh, you’re supposed to put that in the oven. [laughs].

R: Ok.

N: I remember thinking that but - but no, I think that is an interesting juxtaposition here where I don’t actually think that she’s eating food that’s different from what her parents are providing, I think that she is, I guess looking for control over it, or looking like, “Well, if I have to fend for myself, at least this is something I chose,” kind of?

R: Yeah. And again...

N: ...And it’s a...

R: ...the characterization here is thin enough that we can get into speculation really fast. Do you want to move on...

N: ...Oh, yeah...

R: ...about how she’s treated about her name?

N: Oh my God, yeah. So - this - is this - is this treatment neglect or is it...?

(29:03)

R: I think it contributes...

N: ...I feel like it is...

R: ...to the broader, well, adults who literally aren’t responsible for her not remembering her name very well, I don’t - I don’t think that is neglect or abuse? I think that...

N: ...Oh I’m not saying them forgetting her name is neglect or abuse. I’m saying when she says “My name is Coraline,” and they go, “No it’s not, it’s Caroline.”

R: Oh yeah, yeah that’s - that’s weird. It’s - I think it’s a combination of old people being like “Oh, it’s definitely not the words that I heard, Caroline, what are you talking about? Your parents said your name is Caroline,” like...

N: Oh that’s a horrifying implication.

R: Well, I don’t - I don’t know if...

N: ‘Cause her parent’s definitely call her Coraline.

R: Right, I - I think that just the old people around her don’t think it’s a real name, and just don’t...

N: ...I don’t think they listen to her.

R: Oh yeah…

N: ...I don’t think they hear her…

R: ...they definitely don’t listen to her.

N: Well ‘cause the old man heard the rat.

R: Mmhmm. The - the mouse, yeah.

N: No, it’s a rat.

R: Um, nope, real world it’s mice, other world it’s rats.

N: Oh...just kidding.

R: Yep, so...

N: ...I thought it was rats forever...

R: ...the mice called her Coraline, and he’s like “It’s weird that the mice don’t know your name,” and she’s like...

N: ...Yeah, so clearly he heard them but - then he didn’t hear her.

R: Yeah that’s a good point, if they can hear when someone else says it.

N: Yeah.

R: It - it more builds into the bigger picture of her feeling unseen and unheard. In any other book I wouldn't call it neglect, but it definitely builds to the emotional, um - it builds into the feeling of this world...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...in a really smart way. Especially since like, being a kid and not having people take seriously what you want to be called...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...and if it’s anything from “I don’t like my nickname,” to “I don’t like my given name, please use my nickname,” like...

N: ...Yes...

R: ...at minimum, like, that happens, a lot. Again not spending a ton of time on that, just mentioning how it really - it builds into the overall…

N: ...really bad…

R: ...feeling that her identity and her decisions are not taken seriously.

N: Yeah. And - and we also like, we kind of talk about this, well ‘cause we have to when we’re putting together our...

R: ...notes. Yeah...

N: ...our own notes, so we - when we do this podcast, we always have - we kind of put our minor character first, no matter what, right?

R: Mmhmm.

N: But then with our main character, we go in, in what we feel is the order of escalation, so like the most impact the trauma has on the character, or the more severe the trauma, and the way it’s written, it goes second.

R: Mmhmm.

N: We honestly think that what seems like a lifetime pattern of neglect and abandonment and ignoring her as a human being, we think that that is more traumatic to her and it affects her more than the...

R: ...Than the gaslighting...

N: ...villain - than the villain and the plot of the book of this thing that is happening to her. Like...

R: ...And, feel free

N: ...I just wanted...

R: ...to read the book...

N: ...I just wanted to point that out...

R: ...and disagree with us, but.

N: Oh, yeah no if you - if you read it or you watch the movie and you do not think that’s true, ok cool. But when we - when we were reading this, we really looked at it and went like, “Man, the underpinning for why this other trauma happened really is that her parents just don’t take care of her.”

(32:46)

R: Yeah.

N: And, as a person, they just kind of buy food and make sure that she has clothes and, then that’s it.

R: Yeah, and they don’t interact with her...

N: ...that’s all...

R: …they don’t play with her at all.

N: And not even - not even just not playing with her, like I would - I would - I think that the first half of that sentence is the most accurate. They just don’t interact with her.

R: Yeah, I think it’s time to move on within this topic to how she gets neglected in the other world.

N: Oh yeah, whoops.

R: Now we’ve got the set up, the baseline for how she was at home.

N: Yeah.

R: So...

N: ...Oh she was, yeah, go for it.

R: So, in the other world, the most extreme form of neglect in this book is that she gets locked in a room with no food or water for some indeterminate amount of time - she gets threatened with being locked up until she’s good, which is “compliant”, which is until she says she loves the Other Mother, and it’s - it is - that - this event is part of why this topic is our second one, but it is, uh, she - she gets - she gets locked in this room with - with nothing and she's told that she has to change her personality - reference our earlier section on gaslighting. She’s basically told that she has to lose her personality in order to get out and have freedom.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, and then there’s this - she gets offered like - so she’s locked in this room with nothing and then back to back is offered anything, everything that she’s told her real parents that she wants, as like a bribe to get to stay, and it made her - it made her want to leave and be like “No, I didn’t want those things, because they were those things. I wanted them because I wanted them and I wasn’t getting them.” And it has like a weird...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...it’s got like a weird message, because it seems like she’s now fine with how inattentive how her parents are because it’s better than getting locked in cupboards by - or locked behind mirrors, by the...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...Other Mother? Which it’s a weird potentially squicky message, you - you pushed back on, when we were talking about the ending of this book, did you have any specific thoughts here?

N: Wait, what? Which - which part did I push back on?

R: Um, I had started to say that she was now willing to accept their level of attentiveness because it’s better than...

N: ...Oh!

R: ...active abuse?

N: Oh my gosh! Ok.

R: Yeah, you had lots of thoughts.

N: I - I do have lots of thoughts on that, I - sorry. I had forgotten which part I had...

R: Yeah.

N: ...had a thought - ok, so. I don’t think she’s accepting the real world.

(35:52)

R: Mmhmm.

N: I disagree.

R: Ok.

N: Um, I - I think that she says that as a line to the Other Mother to throw it in her face, and to make her upset enough to act the way that she needs her to act so that she can snatch the snowglobe.

R: Ok...

N: I think - I think it is a direct manipulation on Coraline’s part, um, that is kind of - she’s kind of feeding back on what she knows the Other Mother doesn’t want, because she wants her mad and not paying attention in that moment. And, on top of that, I - I - she - so she, she definitely like, she definitely looks at it and says essentially that - I - I think that she really does believe that if she just got everything she wanted, that’s not fun, that’s not helpful like, she doesn’t want - she doesn’t want to just be handed the things she asks for. But I don’t think that’s because she’s accepting the neglect in the real world and I don't think that her - think that she just - I think she recognizes a little bit more that her parents are not doing this on purpose, and I think she - she appreciates that they are trying to do things, like her dad trying to cook and come up with cool recipes for his family, and give them food and stuff, and she is trying to appreciate them more?

R: Ok.

N: But I think that that is because the Other Mother makes it very clear that the Other Mother wants her to be what she wants and she goes, “Oh good, my parents aren’t like that.” But I don’t think that it’s because she thinks that it’s all fine now.

R: Yeah. It’s like she’s trying to reach out to them more...

N: ...Right, like she’s kind of...

R: ...knowing...

N: ...she’s kind of saying “Ok, well, what they’re doing isn’t ok, but instead of just demanding that they come to me, I’m going to go to them maybe a little bit and see if it gets better.”

R: Yeah.

N: And I - I - yeah. I don’t think that she's just fine with it, um, but also I think that she’s - she’s still, I mean she still is - she still reads as very young.

(38:10)

R: Mmhmm.

N: And this is almost maybe a little bit of maturing on her part, inadvertently, where instead of her saying well, you know, “We don’t have a good relationship,” or “They don’t treat me very well, so i'm going to be in their face and demand that they pay attention to me,” instead she’s saying “Hey, I’m gonna reach out to them and try and be part of what they’re doing for me, like dinner time.” [loud cat meow] Hi Haku. And I, I don’t think by the way, I’m not condoning that as a method of - a reaction to abuse, like, it is not your job to reach out and make your abuser stop.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, but I do think that that is the - I do think it makes sense that that is the motivation here.

R: Mmhmm.

N: I think she’s trying to appreciate them as parents more, but also it’s not - it’s not an excuse. And she doesn't say like, “Oh it’s fine now,” she just says that, “Hey, I don’t need everything handed to me, I just want to be legitimately heard and taken care of.”

R: Yeah, and then also like, at the very end, she uses the fact that they’re not paying a lot of attention in order for her to be able to handle the logistics of tricking the hand...

N: ...Oh yeah!

R: ...at the well, and making everything actually be resolved.

N: Well that is the other thing too, is that she straight up doesn't even consider going to her parents for help...

R: ...Oh, no.

N: ...when she has a literal piece of a monster stalking her, to try and get back access to her.

R: Yeah.

N: It doesn’t even occur to her. Her parents were kidnapped, and locked away, and helped her get out, in theory, and she doesn't even ask if they remember it.

R: Yeah, well, she said that it doesn’t seem like they do. They don’t appear to have noticed that they’re missing two days. We do have a line about that, but again, I don’t know all of what they said or did to make her come to that conclusion, because it doesn't describe it. Like it - it’s not important to the plot, what - and so we don’t get that?

N: Right.

R: And it - it works in the story, it just makes it a little bit harder to talk about the book from the angle that we’re approaching it.

N: I would honestly love to have a sit down with this author and just ask him about this book.

R: Yeah.

N: But.

R: Yep.

N: Alright, that’s all I had.

R: Alright, moving on to wrap up.