The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress
A Stand-Alone Book by Robert A. Heinlein
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
This fortnight we bring you our discussion of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", a stand-alone book by Robert A. Heinlein.
*A brief vocabulary note: The term "Loonies" is used throughout the book (and our discussion) as a term for residents of the moon. This term has a historically ableist context in modern English but is not used derogatorily in the book.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-1:03)
R: Hello everyone! Since this is either a highlight, a stand-alone book, or the first episode in a series, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, we do not read books about real people, and we are not reading historical fiction. The second rule is that we are basing our analyses off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, nor the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only, the hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come solely from personal experience. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all audiences, please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (1:04-1:26)
Plot Synopsis (1:29-1:38)
N: Today we will be discussing “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,” By Robert A. Heinlein, a book about revolution on the Moon, and how they got there.
Factions (1:38)
N: Hi, I’m Nicole.
R: And I’m Robin and welcome to Books That Burn. It’s sci-fi, which means Nicole’s the one who picked it...
N: [laughs]
R: ...and I was pleasantly surprised by how much I really, really liked this book. Uh.
N: Have I picked all the sci-fi ones we’ve done?
R: All both of them, yes.
N: Oh. Wait, no we’ve done more than...
R: Eh, regardless, you’ve - you’ve picked the sci-fi.
N: Ok, I’ve...
R: ...you - you really...
N: ...also picked a lot of the Fantasy.
R: Oh, yeah, no. We’re pretty even on Fantasy, but if it’s sci-fi...
N: ...Oh, ok. It’s alway me. Alright, I gotcha.
R: Like, distoptian, in the future, with different tech isn’t the same thing as sci-fi.
N: That’s true, and I think you’ve picked those. Ok.
R: Yeah, I’ve picked those. So, anyway, factions! We have Mannie, we have Mike, also known as Mycroft, also known as Michelle.
N: [laughs]
R: We have Wyoh - we have Wyoh, uh, full name Wyoming Knott, with a K. Uh, it’s - it’s fun. It’s a cool spelling. Lots of puns, lots of being upset about puns. Uh, we have Prof, we have Mannie’s family. We have the Lunar Authority. General comrades, most of whom then become, uh, governmental. We have Terrans, in mostly government roles. [sighs]
N: Well we get - we get a bunch of random interactions with like, random citizens.
R: Yeah. I guess um...
N: ...We do get that a little bit.
R: ...Little bit.
Topic 1: Marie Lyons - Rape and murder. Begins at (3:19), CW for rape, gang-rape, murder, police mention, mention of sex slavery. *Discussion contains an explicit quote from the text.
R: Uh, ok, so, uh, for our minor character spotlight, it - in general we pick something that is lower in like - usually in our episodes, our topics ramp up. The topic for this one is rape and murder.
N: Yeah.
R: The way that it is handled in the book is the only thing that lets this be the lowest thing on the order of escalation in the book.
N: Although to be fair, we put the minor character first no matter what.
R: Yeah, we always put...
N: ...So...
R: ...the minor character first, we just wanna say, “Hey…”
N: ...Yeah...
R: “...we understand that this is possibly the biggest trauma in the book, and the only reason we say ‘possibly’ is because of how it is handled.”
N: Yeah...
R: ...Now...
N: ...so, we - we know that we have and will again, cover books with rape and with murder in them, however - and we don’t wanna - we don’t wanna have the same topic over and over and over, and have you guys just be listening to our opinions on the same thing forever, but this book does a very, very good job of having this happen in a very, I don’t even know what the right word is, a very...
R: ...Purposeful? I don’t want to quite use the word - calculated isn’t quite right.
N: Uh...
R: ...It is...
N: ...it’s not - it’s not calculated in the story, it is...
R: ...Yeah, but for the author it’s calibrated.
N: Yes. Calibrated is good. It’s a - it is a calibrated trauma that is absolutely a thing in the plot, but the way the wording is and the way it’s - it’s handled in the text. This was less - like this - the - we’re gonna - we’re gonna read a quote in a second. This is all you get. You don’t...
R: ...If...
N: ...You have...
R: ...if you...
N: ...there are no other details, nothing.
R: If you want to skip the quote, then just press your go forward button and you’ll miss very minimal commentary. Alright.
N: It is a single sentence.
-----Sentence begins on the next line-----
R: And it is, “Not satisfied with raping her, they abused her in other ways and killed her.”
-----Sentence ends.-----
N: End quote. That’s it.
R: That’s it, that’s the whole thing. We have a little bit of background. We know that it was six soldiers, and that’s it. Um, so, uh.
N: [laughs]
R: Thank you for joining us again, if you skipped ahead...
N: ...Welcome back...
R: ...we’re done - we’re done with that description. Um.
N: Yeah, it - honestly, eh - and - and not that we’re gonna say anything terrible, but [sighs] our discussing of it right now is honestly, no joke, if you’re listening to us right now and going “Man, ok, I can handle this conversation. I don’t think I could handle the book,” our conversation is probably more traumatic to listen to, than the book section was to read.
R: And we try to not have...
N: ...It’s so...
R: ...that be the case...
N: ...so carefully handled.
R: We have not - that not be the case, but since most of how it’s so careful is that it gets very little - the very low word count…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...us talking about it at all ups that.
N: We are...
R: ...So...
N: ...we are spending more time and more words on it than the book does.
(6:49)
R: Yes.
N: Full stop. No - no - it’s not even close. Just by - just by virtue of it being a topic that we talk about for ten minutes, we are spending more effort on it than - than you would have to endure in the book. But...
R: ...So anyway...
N: ...honestly, that’s part of why it made our list, because it’s so delicately done, and it’s so quickly done, and there’s no details, there’s no - there - there's no objectifying of the victim. There’s no descriptions of anything.
R: Yep. And...
N: ...Nothing...
R: ...the first thing that we are told is her name and her background, and then a little bit of context, and then the sentence that we read. And...
N: ...And - and we get no...
R: ...that’s it.
N: We get no physical description of her at all.
R: Yes.
N: We get who she is as a person, her name and what she does, and that’s it.
R: And I think like who her parents were, like...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...but who her parents were in the sense of were they from Luna or Terra.
N: Yeah, we get like, their citizenship? Technically, I guess...
R: ...So...
N: ...kind of?
R: Yeah and...
N: ...but that’s...
R: ...and...
N: ...but that’s it. But again, those are very humanizing details. There is...
R: ...Oh yeah…
N: ...nothing about this that dehumanizes her even a little bit.
R: The only pushback I would give on that characterization, is that very small amount of time spent for the text and the way her death is immediately politicised is a kind of dehumanization...
N: ...Oh...
R: ...but in comparison to how most victims of rape are treated in a police procedural... Like the - if - if - if you compare it to a - a T.V. show police procedural, where you have a victim and then you spend 45 minutes finding out what happened, this gives more dignity, less stress and less trauma in the depiction of it than a murder mystery story, like, yeah. But, I - I don’t - I don’t want to - I don’t want...
N: ...That makes sense and...
R: ...to characterize it as “They - it’s handled so well,” I’m like, mmm?
N: I mean it is though, it - well, here’s - here’s what I...
R: ...What’s - what’s...
N: ...here’s what I say...
R: ...handled well.
N: It was - it is handled well by the author...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...which is what we’re talking about. It is true...
R: ...But...
N: ...it is true that the event in the story ends up being up the catalyst for a major part of the plot, but even then what happens is, it is the cat - it’s not the catalyst where somebody took this thing and said, “Well let’s - let’s start this other thing with it.” No they were - they were already building and looking for that other thing.
R: They were waiting for an excuse...
N: ...Well...
R: ...to do things that are already...
N: ...I...
R: ...planning to do...
N: ...I - I - yeah. I - I wouldn’t even say - I wouldn’t even say excuse, I would say opening almost, and it is true that - the - the - the actual events that were specifically triggered by this event um...
R: ...And we use “triggered”...
N: ...they - they didn’t have...
R: ....in a “one event causes another” sense...
N: ...Yeah, yeah...
R: ...in this case.
N: Yes. Um, so, the actual - the actual things that were triggered by this event were not somebody manipulating the event.
R: No.
N: They...
R: ...It was just - manipulating the coverage.
N: They were - they were manipulating the coverage, but they - like there - there was, I’m trying to, I mean I guess we can just say it ‘cause [laughs] I...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...it’s - I’m almost trying to edge around spoilers, and there’s no reason to do that. So, this - this...
R: ...This book has been out since the ‘60’s.
N: [laughs]
R: You’ve had the time.
N: Well.
R: It’s on the back cover.
N: If you knew about it.
(10:48)
R: It’s on the back cover.
N: [laughs] Uh, so the - so the rape actually triggered mass riots of people being upset at the group that had included the rapists.
R: Mmhmm.
N: That is what happened.
R: Yes.
N: And then the people who were trying to overthrow those - that - the lunar - the Authority that...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...included those rapists, took advantage of the fact that the people were already rioting...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...to then push to actually overthrow the government.
R: Yeah.
N: So, I - I - I wanna push back, I guess on your pushback a little bit...
R: ...Ok, sure...
N: ...and just say that - that - that I - I don’t think that it was a case of “This event happened, and so it was then taken advantage of,” because nobody looked at this event and then took that story and then made it news, it was gonna be...
R: ...No...
N: ...news no matter what.
R: I mean “excuse” in the very literal, they were planning to do a thing and then this was...
N: ...This was the...
R: ...what they said...
N: ...This was the time for it...
R: ...was the reason.
N: Yeah.
R: This is what they said was the reason for doing the thing, but it was not their reason for doing the thing, otherwise they would not already have been so well planned and ready to take advantage of it.
N: Right, and...
R: ...So...
N: ...also something I - I think is important too is that um, trying to think of the right way to say this, um, this was not a case of a woman is raped and murdered and people use that to incite a riot.
R: Mmhmmm.
N: This is a case of, a woman is raped and murdered, and everyone who heard about it was ready to beat down the door of the person who did it. This - this was not - it was not used to drum up a reaction, that reaction was there. People were upset and angry that somebody had been treated this way.
R: And I wanna take a minute and talk briefly about why it was such a like - why they rioted so quickly like...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...contrasting it with how, like set up for this world, uh, which I think is really, really cool and I like it a lot, and I know this is kind of a dark podcast, but this whole - this idea was like really, really cool. And I’m like, “An author in the ‘60’s wrote this,” and I’m so excited like, you don’t have to be like, terrible just because it was the past. I like this.
N: [laughs]
R: Anyway, so the basic ethos is on the moon - Lunar - on the Moon, on Luna, women are outnumbered about ten to one. There...
N: ...Uh, it was ten to one when the colony was founded. Now it’s close to...
R: ...That’s true, it’s now two to one?
(13:42)
N: Yes.
R: Ok, historic - when it very first started, and when the start of this culture happened, they were outnumbered ten to one, the ratio is a little better now, but it remains, um…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...therefore they are precious, therefore they have all say in relationships. Not in the sense that they could force somebody, but in the sense...
N: ...Mmm...
R: ...that - in the sense that nothing will happen if the woman doesn’t enthusiastically consent.
N: Yeah.
R: They don’t use that phrase, because it’s the ‘60’s but that…
N: [laughs]
R: ...but that is what is being described with more words, is that enthusiastic consent is required by the woman…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and uh, if - and any other partners that she may have, female or male, will have nothing to say about it.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: There - there are scenes in this book of married women kissing, or even married men, kissing other people and it’s - it - that like, married women kissing someone else with their husband right there, and it - it’s - it’s her choice, it’s her call. It’s almost like...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...it’s almost like the entire - the entire settle[ment] - the entire colony, the entire settlement on the Moon, on Luna, is everyone is in an open relationship if they consent to that person?
R: Well.
N: Kind of? Almost? Like there’s...
R: ...There are - there are monogamists, there are. It’s mentioned.
N: There are monogamists but as far as a society, there’s very much just this, um...
R: ...There’s monogamists, Prof seems pretty ace, um, it’s hard...
N: ...Yeah?
R: ...to tell ‘cause ace are just older and...
N: ...There just - just the one older man in this - in the - in the group.
R: Yeah, it’s hard to know if he’s ace or just like done trying to have relationships.
N: Yeah.
R: He refers to himself as monogamous, but he’s not with anybody. So…
N: Yeah, that’s fair.
R: Yeah.
N: But I mean - but there’s very much this - this - when I say open, what I mean is if two people...
R: ...Not possessive...
N: ...Not possessive, yeah, if two people consent to doing something with each other, zero other people on the planet are gonna have an issue, and honestly, the only people that might even say something is like, their other partners might say, “Hey, tell us if you’re sleeping with someone else instead of coming home tonight, because that’s like, courteous to let us know that you won’t be here. We’ll miss you.” You know like, keep the head of your household informed that you’re safe, and didn’t die in an accident somewhere. Just say that you’re sleeping somewhere else. Like there’s - there’s a thing where like the head of - of our main character, Mannie’s household basically says like, “Hey, if you’re sleeping with someone else, please tell me, but then go...
R: ...so that we can invite them...
N: ...go do it...
R: ...to dinner.
N: Right, [laughs] like let me know so that I can get to know them too, or that we can - but - but there’s no - there's no jealousy, there’s no possessiveness, there’s no “This is my person,” like that - that doesn’t happen. There is rejection, there is... people saying no to interaction.
(16:44)
R: Uh huh.
N: Absolutely, but in every single situation of a Loony with another Loony, that is what they call themselves.
R: Yes it is. [laughs]
N: Clarifying, that is the literal official term in the book, they are Loonies who live on Luna, and that is their self-identified...
R: ...Mmhhmm...
N: ...phrasing. Um, every single time that you see an interaction there, it is always, either full consent or full respect for a no. No...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...in between, no hedging, no, “Aw, come on,” no nothing. It’s great.
R: And - and there is one instance where an Earthling doesn’t understand this...
N: [laughs]
R: ...and, uh the Loonies who are all in the relationship with the woman in question...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...there’s like - like three or four of them at least.
N: Yeah.
R: They um, basically the main character very narrowly helps this Earthling avoid being killed because he disrespected her not giving enthusiastic consent. I’m not sure if she said no? Or if he - I think it was he tried to do something physically...
N: ...Oh...
R: ...without her having said yes.
N: He tried to pull her in and kiss her without her having already agreed to it.
R: Ah - yes. Yes, there was not an enthusiastic consent.
N: Yeah, and it wasn’t even that she rejected him, it was just that...
R: ...She hadn’t said yes.
N: She hadn’t said yes, and that was it. That was the end of the conversation, and this guy almost died for it because that’s...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...how this goes in this...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...situation, um. And - and then contrast that with the - the actual rapists in - with our - with our topic here, who are from Earth, and Robin you had pointed out a very good...
R: ...Yeah, uh...
N: ...good point.
R: After it happens, the officials are upset that the soldiers weren’t given their own women, because then this wouldn't have happened, which is very terrible and makes me wish that we could swear on this version of the podcast.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, if you want to very occasionally hear us swear, support us on Patreon. Uh, but, yeah...
N: ...It’s - it’s...
R: ...so...
N: ...literally, I do want to be explicit here, and I - I did put this is in our content warning, the - the contrast here is between a society who will kill the person who tries to force you to do anything, even if it’s just you haven’t been enthusiastic in your consent, versus...
R: ...That - that the other person wasn’t enthusiastic in their consent, or, you’re not killing someone for...
N: ...No, you’re killing...
R: ...not saying yes...
N: ...you’re killing someone if the person they’re trying to get with didn’t say yes. Um, versus a squad of, call them what they are...
R: ...Terrorists...
N: ...prison warders, space police...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...from Earth, who need their own sex slaves so that they don’t rape local women. The dynamic contrast between those two groups is whoa - like miles wide, and deep, it’s so incredibly different, and it’s - it’s set up in the book very, very well.
R: Mmhmm.
N: It’s very, very good.
R: Yeah. It is done so well and so memorably, that when I went to glance at the text, it took me about fifteen seconds to find it, just ‘cause...
N: [laughs] Yeah...
R: ...just how it is...
N: ...it’s - it’s so quick and it’s so clean, and it’s just, “Ok, here’s what happened, here’s the human being that was injured by it, and we’re done. Moving on.”
[Musical Interlude]
Topic 2: Mannie - Racism. Begins at (20:39), CW for racism, police/jail mention, discussion of deportation, mention of assault.
R: Moving onto Mannie and racism. Ha, so,on Luna, people’s skin tone and hair color are mentioned in a way that is not tied to race. It is occasionally tied to uh, ethnicity specifically uh, Chinese which to be clear, on the Moon they have a separate term which is Chinee. As far as we know that is not a slur. If it is, we’re very sorry, this is the term in the book. The [sighs], not aware of it being one uh, in reality, and it is not in the book used as a slur. The reason that it’s called out separately is because LunoHoKo, Lunar Hong Kong, is a substantial segment of Luna, and it is filled with people who are descended from people who came to the Moon from China, but it is not...
N: ...Well…
R: ...exclusively that. It just...
N: ...specifically people who were imprisoned/deported to the Moon by the Chinese government.
R: Ok. That’s...
N: ...So...
R: ...true...
N: ...that doesn’t - and - and it actually does say, and I’m not gonna try and find the page right now...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...it actually does say that that is not even mostly Chinese.
R: Right.
N: It’s - honestly it’s a lot of like “China was conquering different nations, and then sent their people away to the Moon.”
R: Yeah, so...
N: ...So like there’s some Chinese, but really it’s - it’s - it’s Lunar Hong Kong because it was China who created that - that particular part of the settlement.
R: Yeah.
N: But as far as like the ethnicity goes, it’s - it’s a whole bunch of people that were just the people that in fiction, this - this version of China wanted off of Earth.
R: Yeah.
N: Which is - which was not just - which was not their citizens, because they like their citizens...
R: [laughs]
N: ...essentially.
R: Yeah. So...
N: …[laughs] it was - it was everybody else.
R: Chinee is used frequently throughout the book, and it’s not - it’s not taking...
N: ...I can’t - I can’t...
R: ...the time…
N: ...think of a single...
R: ...it’s never explicitly about an ethnicity or appearance or anything. It’s mostly just, “Is this person from LunoHoKo?”
N: Yeah, it’s - it’s almost a location. It’s like calling someone a New Yorker.
R: Yeah, yeah, it’s like that.
N: It’s like that.
R: Yeah, just on the Moon.
N: Or - or a - a Yank - a Yankee.
R: All of this is to say that...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...the book begins to grapple with racism when the narrator briefly is on Earth.
N: Yeah, it's - it’s really interesting, so I just - I - I wanna...
R: ...Yeah, yeah...
N: ...cut in ‘cause I wanna - I wanna make sure we put in something kind of first...
R: ...I thought you might...
N: ...here in this conversation. [laughs] This book does not presuppose that you as a reader will assume that the narrator is a white man.
R: Nope.
N: In fact, uh, this book kind of assumes that you don’t care, and that you don’t know, and you know that you don't know, and you also are not trying to figure it out. Uh, so they - they actually - they set it up where uh, the narrator is Mannie, and he - he’ll describe other people, but he never describes himself, because when you’re thinking through and you’re telling a story, you - nobody in real life looks down and says, “My lily white hands,” like that doesn't happen. [laughs]
(24:15)
R: [laughs] Yeah.
N: Nobody looks at themselves and says, “Ah, my lovely golden skin,” like that’s - that’s not a thing that happens in the real world. That is a thing that fiction authors do when they’re like, “This person isn’t white because we know you think white’s the default,” like, but this book doesn’t do that at all. And so, it - so it’s just really interesting, ‘cause we - we literally see the word through - the world through Mannies’ eyes and we see what he is seeing, and he is not staring at his own coloring.
R: Yep.
N: At all, and I - I think that’s important, and - and then - ‘cause then you know why us talking about Earth is such a - a - a big deal...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...here.
R: Uh, so then when he does go to Earth, uh, he - he gets - he basically gets the, “No, where are you Really from?” when he says his background, because he’s like, “I’m from Luna. That's kind of the whole point of this.” And then they’re like, “Where are your parents from,” and he’s like, “Luna?” Like, “Where are your grandparents from?” “Earth? What…”
N: …[laughs] Yeah, it’s...
R: “...what do you want?”...
N: ...it’s really funny...
R: ...like...
N: ...like he does not know what to do with this. He’s like, “Well, I was born and raised on the Moon, and my ancestors were deported there from, [shrugging as a sound].”
R: Somewhere on Earth.
N: “Your - the - the planet that I’m visiting right now?” Like, “I don’t know where. Depends on which ancestor,”
R: And they’re like, “But which of your four grandparents...
N: … “Where are you from?”
R: ...was from which part of Earth,” and then he kind of like shuts them down by being like uh, sss- uh, but uh by saying uh, that his uh - one of his grandmothers was from - was from an area that was repeatedly conquered and pillaged and all of the stuff that goes along with that, uh, see our previous topic, um...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and...
N: ...well…
R: ...so…
N: ...not for discussion of that...
R: ...eh...
N: ...well, not that part...
R: ...well anyway. Um, and like, it doesn’t say that she was assaulted and that’s how one of his parents exists, but it’s like, he doesn’t know that it’s not?
N: Yeah, like he - his - his family history as far as he is concerned is Luna, Luna...
R: ...and...
N: ...and “That big blue planet down there, and you know we’ve got some fun stories about maybe some ancestors that might have been mine, meh, I don’t know.” Like, it - it’s so - it’s just not even what he - he - he - he literally doesn’t care.
R: Yeah.
N: Because it’s not part of his identity, and it’s - and it’s not that he is missing part of his identity, it's that for him, as a Lunar uh, I keep trying to...
R: ...as a Loonie...
N: ...say citizen, as a Loonie, he can’t be a citizen without citizenship.
R: Yeah.
N: As a Loonie, his whole everything is just what existed on the Moon, and on the Moon they don’t divide people up in those ways.
R: Yeah.
N: They just don’t care.
R: It’s not that there’s no divisions, it’s that that really isn’t one of them.
N: Yeah, there's - there’s other divisions, it’s just not - not this one that we...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...we like on Earth.
(27:31)
R: And it’s kind of a - it’s done in this really cool way where it’s like a criticism of “Did you ever think about how this is really bonkers and we shouldn’t be doing this on Earth…”
N: [laughs]
R: “...wink wink, nudge nudge.”
N: Yeah.
R: What - what are...
N: ...cough cough, jab...
R: ...what are you doing...
N: ...in the ribs.
R: And I’m like…
N: [laughs]
R: ...I’m like good on you, writer from the ‘60’s, uh.
N: [laughs] It’s a really good deconstruction almost of it...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...just...
R: ...and...
N: ...it’s calling how - out how absurd it is, in a very, very funny...
R: ...like it matters...
N: ...to read way.
R: It matters way more as a...
N: ...It’s good...
R: ...identity that he’s part of a 90 year old line marriage, and if you wanna know what that is, read...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...the book.
N: [laughs]
R: We do not have...
N: ...yes...
R: ...time, it’s cool, it’s poly.
N: [laughs]
R: Read the book, anyway.
N: It is - it is healthy polyamory...
R: ... in like this really cool...
N: ...read the book...
R: ...Luna-specific way. Uh.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Anyway, so he has this family photo, that has like all of his family, and like all like, seven, eight, of his husband’s wives and things,
N: [laughs]
R: Like, seven...
N: ...I don’t remember how many...
R: ...or eight of each of those, uh, and because his family photo clo - shows clearly like multi-racial, moolthy - molthy - multi-ethnic polygamous family, um, he then gets arrested for polygamy and then that’s like, that’s like a whole thing. Um, and it’s stated in the book that racial prejudice and racism of various types is part of why he’s arrested.
(29:09)
N: Specifically it states that the person who - who advocated for his arrest, it was the polyamory, but it was also that his family was clearly a mixed family, and the way they put it was, “The range of color in the Davis family...
R: ...Oh yeah...
N: ...was - that was upsetting to that person.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Like it wasn't that he was a person of color, it was that his family included people on a - on a spectrum and how dare they, and it's - a - and also, it’s - it’s good to hear when we’re talking about, like, essentially cultural differences in the book…
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...um, he had no idea that anyone would even care about something like that. He showed them his family pic - the picture he had of his family, ‘cause he loves that - that picture, and it was precious to him, and he was trying to - part of uh, his goal was to - to essentially humanize the Loonies to the Terrans...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...and so he was showing them his family photo to be like, “Hey look! We’re just like you guys,” and they looked at that polyamorous, multiracial photo, and went, “What? We hate this. We don’t want to be this. How dare you impinge on my identity of you,“ essentially, and - and it got him thrown in jail, but it - it was legitimately for him it was this positive like, “Hey, let’s - let me share my family that I love with you,” and he had no idea that anyone would even - could possibly look at his photo and have a problem with that.
R: Yeah.
N: And it - again, it - it draws a very stark line in the - of contrast.
R: And part of what we’re talking about is trauma, because it goes from like, literally not a thing where he has lived for however many decades. We don’t know how old he is, but there’s a point where someone’s like, “Are you like, twenty-two?” And he’s like, “I have been married longer than that.” But, other...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...than that we - we don’t get how old he is, but.
N: He’s at least in his forties or fifties.
R: Yeah.
N: At minimum, just from other count - context things.
R: And so, for like the first time, at age, say it’s even just fifty something, someone’s like “Did you know that your family’s multiracial and we hate that?” And he’s like “What’s...
N: [laughs]
R: ...racial?”
N: He’s like...
R: “...Race…”
N: ...right. He’s like, “Uh?”
R: “You Terrans…”
N: ..ok...
R: “...are not ok, are you?”
N:[laughs]
R: Uh.
N: And - and even the way they describe it, he even says he doesn’t even say muiltiracial, he says range of color.
R: Yeah, yeah. He doesn’t...
N: ...Like he does - he doesn’t have the vocabulary for that racist idea.
R: Like…
N: ...he - he doesn’t have those words.
R: Like we know that that’s what the author is...
N: ...right...
R: ...critiquing, but I - I...
N: ...right...
R: ...I really appreciate that it is a critique and uh, like this - this book is not dystopian, but it is - it’s - it’s - it’s pitching Earth in the 2070’s as a dystopia...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...in the background of all the stuff happening on Luna.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: And the most...
N: ...yeah, real good...
R: ...like troubling dystopian things, are the stuff that they didn’t change and assume is just the same, if what was...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...happening in the ‘60’s projected unchanged, well, 19’...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...1960’s is projected unchanged until the 2070’s. And that stuff feels...
N: ...It’s just...
R: ...the most...
N: ...it’s just scary...
R: ...dystopian...
N: ...good...
R: ...because…
N: ...um...
R: ...reality is terrible.
[Musical Interlude]
Topic 3: Mannie - Ableism. Begins at (32:49), CW for ableism, description of missing limb, loss of autonomy.
R: Moving onto Mannie with disability and ableism. Uh, specifically uh, loss of a limb. So...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...we have - the briefest backstory is that he is missing an arm.
N: [laughs]
R: I believe it’s his left one.
N: It’s his left one...
R: ...Um...
N: ...it was cut off by a laser cutter that was...
R: ...Ah...
N: ...mis-...
R: ...ok...
N: …-used, mishandeld.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And we don’t actually...
R: ...It’s super early...
N: ...know if he mishandled it or if somebody else did some - we don’t actually know. There isn’t really a lot of details, ‘cause again, like I’ve said in previous topics, this is all through Mannie’s eyes, and Mannie doesn’t care that you know why he lost his arm. He just cares that he is functional with prosthetics. Like that’s it, like when he does or doesn't have an arm attached, that’s what matters.
R: Like he’ll mention it, like, he has a social arm because, yeah the social arm is the one that looks like a flesh arm.
N: Or as...
R: ...And...
N: ...close as he can - as he can get it.
R: Yeah, as close as he can get it.
N: Yeah.
R: Um. [sighs] Yeah, so he has uh, different arms. He has them numbered and they’ve got different functions and features, and like one has a recorder and one, like, can solder? Like I don’t know...
N: ...Uh, I think...
R: ...if one can solder. It’s that kind...
N: ...I think it’s...
R: ...of idea.
N: I think it's number six arm just has a lot of engineering and, I hesitate to say chemical, but a lot of just like functional tools that he uses day to day, so I think it does have a solder. I think it has various screwdrivers... things. You know that...
R: ...So whenever someone...
N: ...that he uses on the job. He’s a mechanical...
R: ...Whenever...
N: ...engineer.
R: Whenever he has to do something that is basically just dependent on he had this tool because it’s in his arm, it mentions what arm he is using.
N: Yeah.
R: Or if it’s just like, “Ah, I’m changing clothes. We’re about to go to a social function. I put on the social arm,” Like.
N: I think arm number four has the recorder. Arm number six has most of his - most of his uh, gadgets that he uses for - for just work and jobs. Uh, I know he has number two. Is number two his social arm?
R: I do not remember.
N: I don’t remember...
R: ...I was not super...
N: ...either...
R: ...worried. I just know he really likes number six.
(35:20)
N: Number six...
R: ...Ah...
N: ...well, he is - like I said, he is a mechanical engineer. Number...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...six has all of his mechanical engineering gadgets.
R: Yep.
N: It’s his fav. It’s the one he uses at work day to day, do - making his living, so yeah, number six is his favorite arm. It’s most versatile for him.
R: So anyway, we’re super excited about his arm, you can tell.
N: [laughs] I - I like...
R: ...It’s got just enough like, weird nerdy...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...detail that it’s like...
N: …Oh yeah…
R: ...is it number three or number six, or number two, um.
N: [laughs]
R: But as it matters…
N: ...It’s so…
R: ...more...
N: ...specific.
R: As it matters for this particular thing, there is some - he - he is missing an arm and on Luna, he is generally not treated as disabled. Uh.
N: Yeah, well, to be fair on Luna he generally has something attached to his - the - the remainder of that - that - that limb, and is doing something with, like...
R: It seemed as though he has a shoulder…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...but not much below it...
N: ...I kind of...
R: ...it had that kind of a feel.
N: I - the mental image that I had - when I was younger and reading this as well as rereading this this week, was that he has a shoulder and maybe like - like you know kind of where your shoulder muscle stops and your - your tricep and bicep kind of take over?
R: Yeah.
N: My mental image is that that’s kind of the cutoff, so he has like a full shoulder and a full rotator cuff...
R: ...But just to be clear...
N: ...and just like
R: ...he’s not...
N: ...no lower arm...
R: ...super worried...
N: ...most if not his upper arm. Yeah, again, he’s just functional, it's fine.
R: Yeah, he’s not worried about it. He’s not describing exactly how much of his limb is missing.
N: No.
R: We’re guessing because…
N: ...It’s...
R: ...that’s based...
N: ...that’s the visual...
R: ...on how...
N: ...from the text...
R: ...he talks about it.
N: Yeah, well he talks about like, connecting them, and - and...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...it’s always - it’s always arm, it’s never shoulder. It’s never - like he never talks about the joint locking into - like we never get details like that, we just get like, “He puts on this arm,” and it- it - it’s very. Well, he does say his stump, of - a couple times.
R: Yeah. So...
N: ...Which is - I think that’s why I have the mental image of him still having his full shoulder and like a piece of his upper arm, is because he calls it a stump.
R: So...
N: ...Um...
R: ...then we get to the first instance, and basically only instance in the whole book of him not having an arm being a disability because - I don’t comfortable using the term disability for the rest of the book, because that’s not...
N: ...Um?
R: ...how it’s couched, that’s not how it’s portrayed, it’s like...
N: ...It’s not how he thinks of it, which...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...is important.
R: Yeah, you’ve got some things you’re gonna say, as...
N: ...I do...
R: ...on Luna like after Earth. I wanna say the Earth bit...
N: ...Yeah, go...
R: ...and then sure...
N: ...for it.
R: Um, so when he travels to Earth and is packed in the hot shot, his - he takes um, certain drugs, consensually, for the flight to wake him up at a particular time, but have him be asleep before that and when he wakes up he finds that - so he had - he had packed two of his arms in the storage, and then his arm had been removed...
N: ...His - the third arm...
R: ...after he was drugged. Yeah...
N: ...he had a - he had a third arm attached, and two packed in - in his stuff.
R: Yep, so the arm that he had put on him because it was the most needed for the part where he is supposed to wake up and do things in the middle of this flight, uh, his arm was removed, is not with him on the ship, and appears to have been removed - I - I’m - I thought it was on the ship with him, Nicole...
N: ...No...
R: ...thought it wasn’t. That detail isn’t important. The main part is that he can’t use it. It is packed, it is somewhere, either inaccessible, or not even on this vessel, and it means that in a life or death scenario where he is trying to do things to help him not die, to help Prof not die, to help Stu not die. Stu’s the other person with him.
N: Mmhmm...
R: Him, Prof and Stu, uh, trying to help them all like be alive.Wait is Stu with him?
N: No, Stu’s been on Earth for...
R: Sorry, Stu’s already on Earth, uh, he’s trying to keep Prof alive.
N: Mmhmm.
R: And he’s got to give him like certain drugs so that it will like, start his heart and he like does them all even though he thinks Prof is dead, and it’s like cool, and super dramatic, and he’s doing all of this, cursing the person who took off his arm.
(39:50)
He even says, “Was sorry I didn’t know name of my helping friend. Could have cursed him better.” Uh, because someone tried to be “helpful”, and instead made everything so much worse. Someone removing his arm to clean it, meant that he could have died. It took him two to three times longer, minimum...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...it doesn’t give us an exact number on it. From the description it sounds like two to three times longer to do things...
N: ...At least, yeah…
R: ...in this dangerous situation. And that is the first time that for him, not have - in the text - not having his arm is some kind of disability because until then he was completely able to do everything he wanted to do, and able to do some really cool stuff that other people who just had bio arms, weren't able to do. Like, he’s like extra able for - for the rest of the book, and then some terrible, clueless person…
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ….Uh, does this thing, and it sets him up to possibly die, and then once he does make it to Earth, it means that he doesn't’ have a thing that he was counting on to do a bunch of stuff...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...in a very important way. That is my spiel about how it’s handled on Earth. You had a little bit to say about uh, the abilsim on the Moon, because you have read this more time, and to be frank, this is my first time through, you’re talking about stuff that is subtle enough that I missed it.
N: Ok, so, I - actually we were both wrong, because I just found the passage.
R: Mm...
N: ...Um...
R: ...Ok...
N: ...alright. So, I’m just gonna read this paragraph. It - uh, he’s in the - he’s in a hospital being talked to by a nurse on Earth. Uh, “She asked how I felt. Told her I was right, just hungry. Sister, did you see some prosthetic arms in our luggage? She had, and I felt better with number six in place. Had selected it and number two and social arm as enough for trip. Number two is presumably still in complex. I hope someone was taking care of it. But, number six is all around most useful arm. With it and social one, I’d be ok.” Oh wait, no. I was right. Sorry.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, so he had - he had planned to have three arms. One of them was taken off his body without his con - without his consent and he assumed was just still on the Moon somewhere.
R: And it’s - it’s - it’s the...
N: …Like…
R: ...number six arm that’s missing...
N: ...No, his…
R: ...that will be missing when he wakes up?
N: Uh, I just paged away from the - oh there it is. Uhhh, number two is not his social arm. I was wrong. So he had selected number six, number two and social - his social arm.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Number two was presumably still on the Moon. Number six was equipped, and he had his social arm with him. So his...
R: ...and then when he wakes up in the hot shot...
N: ...He has no arm, and is struggling to be one handed.
(42:58)
R: Right.
N: Yeah.
R: And so I think the six was packed somewhere.
N: Yeah, yeah...
R: ...Two...
N: ...Six and his...
R: ...social arm…
N: Number six and his social arm were packed, which was the plan, and he had pl - he had wanted to have number two attached.
R: Oh, ok, alright.
N: And they took number two off his body, and, good question. Also, this means that I - I had misremembered, when we were talking before the podcast, um, social arm is not the same as number two, which actually makes me wonder if you’re right, if number one is the one that looks the most realistic. I wonder if number one is social arm.
R: Oh, yeah, ‘cause there’s nothing labeled number one. We had this discussion before...
N: ...Yeah [laughs]...
R: ...we started recording. No, none of the arms were labeled as number one, but most of the other numbers get mentioned, at least in a cursory way...
N: ...Yeah...
R: … and so he just refers repeatedly to social arm, and so maybe that’s number one? Like the very first prosthetic to make other feel - people feel better?
N: Well...
R: ...Uh...
N: ...I - I would argue - I would argue it’s probably not just to make other people feel better.
R: Ok, sci-fi, probably can like move fingers and things.
N: Yeah, I was gonna say, it's probably just the most - the closest thing to just replacing his functional...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...initial arm.
R: And all the other ones give him like, upgrades.
N: Right, like - like he - he - he did - you’re not gonna - if you have the choice between having multiple replacement prosthetics, you’re probably gonna get one that looks like the original part.
R: Yeah.
N: If nothing else, just so that you have like fingers, you know. If you’ve - if you’ve grown up your whole life with digits, getting them back is helpful. And then, it’s like, “Well what do I need? I need an arm for work. I need an arm that has, you know, this feature or that feature. I need an arm that can - can help me in this - in this situation I find myself in a lot,” like, I - I - I don’t - I don’t think - on - only because the way the text is worded, and the fact that he has multiples and carries the social one to specific events, he - he’s not - he doesn’t go out in the social one when he’s around people. That’s not what happens. He goes...
R: ...Oh, no, no, no.
N: ...He goes...
R: ...I was...
N: ...out with...
R: ...referring to...
N: ….social arm...
R: ...how he was doing it...
N: ...Oh, no but I’m saying like he did - he’s not taking other people’s...
R: ...No, he’s not...
N: … and like reactions into consideration or anything, like he’s not assuming anyone’s gonna have a problem if he shows up with something else. So...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...he’s literally just living his life. He uses social arm when he’s going to be social and he wants to have fingers. And thats...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...it. That’s as far as it goes. Um.
R: So you referred to in the notes, ableism on the Moon.
N: Yeah, now that we’re done geeking out about [laughs] prosthetics and how cool they are for when we have the tech for them, um. [laughs] Yeah, so there’s some - there’s some things where, I - it - it’s. Ok, so, first of all disclaimer: I am not missing any limbs.
(45:59)
I do not have uh, chronic, well that's not true. I do have some chronic things. None of my chronic things are physical disabilities in the way that - that losing a - a limb, and I - I say losing not just missing because the - I - I would - I would assume, I could be wrong, I would assume there is a difference between just never having that thing in the first place, versus being used to having it and then losing it, um.
R: Based on someone I know, they do appear to be very different things.
N: Yeah, so he - he had two arms, lost an arm. Uh, there - there are some - so he never gets any out right he - he never gets any - oh - other than the one, as he puts it, very helpful friend, who - who takes his arm off for him without - without him - without him agreeing to that, he never really gets anybody who does kind of those - those - those things that happen to disabled people all the time, here, on Earth. He doesn't have people that try and take over what he’s doing, ‘cause, “Oh no, you don’t have two arms. Let me - let me just move your body. Let me move this thing that you were reaching for.” Like he doesn't get any of that. He doesn’t get any of those like, those microaggressions that come with - with appearing disabled in our...
R: ...there’s no parking..
N: ….our society...
R: ...therefore there’s no problems...
N: [laughs]
R: ...with handicapped parking.
N: Right like...
R: …’Cause there’s no...
N: ...he doesn't...
R: ...parking.
N: He doesn't have like...
R: ...There’s no parking because there’s no cars. [laughs]
N: [laughs] Right, no one parks. It’s fine. Um, but yeah, but he - he doesn't really have like - he does - he doesn't have special treatment in a dehumanizing way. Um, but he - he also doesn't really have special treatment in a, like, ‘Your prosthetic lets you do things that other people can’t,” kind of way. Like he - he - he [sighs].
R: It’s mostly useful to him. There’s no one...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...sitting there saying, “Hey since you have this arm, can you do this thing for me?” Like that doesn’t happen...
N: ...It doesn’t happen...
R: ...in the book.
N: No.
R: We can’t say it never happened in this character’s life, it’s just not a thing in the text, and the...
N: ...I...
R: ...text is all we have.
N: I would actually like to - so here’s the thing that I - here’s the thing that I look at, with this book, and this is I guess kind of - this is kind of my, I don’t know like hot take, if you wanna call it that. I wouldn’t. But...
R: ...Not for a book from the ‘60’s.
(48:29)
N: [laughs] No, not for a [laughs] no. Uh, I think it is very interesting that for a disabled character, we get to see him in kind of three different I guess, um, three different parts of his personal navigation of this disability. So, uh - and we never see him pre-accident. That is all backstory and like - like Robin said, we don't even get a lot of details. We just know that it happened and he’s adjusted and he’s fine. Uh, essentially. But we see him - we’re - we’re kind of introduced to him as a character where he is in full control and just has this arm, and does these things, and has tools, and just functions, and it’s great, and it’s wonderful, and it’s an asset, and it gets him jobs that other people can’t necessarily do, or don’t do as well, and he has this like, this extra thing, and it’s - it’s just this - it’s just this part of him now, and - but it’s so versatile. It’s so much more versatile than like, a hand. It’s so much more than that. But then, we also have this intermediary, and this is where the fact that he - he lost his arm specifically, I think comes in. We have a couple of different conversations that he is having people - with - with people where he - there - there's this um, a comparison made at least once, uh, to you know, losing this thing versus giving up - what if, you know, what if he were to give up this thing instead of having lost his arm, and its - it’s not direct in a way where it’s like, “Well, if you could have your arm back what you do,” it’s not like that. It’s - it’s a comparison where he’s comparing a trauma with another character. They’re talking it through and they're - they're trying to - to understand each other, and he has this internal thought of, “No, if I could go back I wouldn’t lose my arm.” There’s very much this sense of like, no he - this is a loss for him. He’s adjusted and he’s functioning, but he lost something and it impacts him every day, and he - he has that - that internal thought of, “Yeah, I understand how that would be awful. I would not risk my arm if I had had the choice.” and then, finally, we have that moment in the shuttle, well, it’s not really a shuttle. It’s a glorified uh, giant, tin can...
R: ...It’s shuttle like...
N: ...It’s shuttle-esque. [laughs] it’s probably similar to...
R: ...Space...
N: ...our current space shuttle’s build...
R: ...object.
N: [laughs]
R: Space object.
N: Yes, that - that tin can that they’re strapped in, um. But - but then we have him in that situation where he has been stripped of - of his devices and - and not with consent, not with preparation. In fact, like Robin kind of alluded to, he’s been taken - that has been taken from him in a moment where it could have been deadly. It could have been crucial that he had the laser cutter, I believe, that was on arm number two that he mentioned, uh, to slice his way through that steel. He and the professor could have just died because somebody took his arm off him. And - and - and - and he is aware of that fact but, you get this - the - the text does a really good job of - again, it doesn’t you the reader through his feelings, but like, how he is feeling about it comes through, and he is upset and angry and frustrated, and “Oh my god, this takes forever. I can’t do anything. I’m so helpless. I can’t even turn around. I can’t even reach across my body to like, move. My companion might be dead. If we run out of oxygen we’re dead. If our rescuers don’t know where we are, we’re dead, and I should be able to do something, I literally should.” That’s not him putting something on himself. Like, he was equipped to be the person keeping them alive, and then some, you know, “helpful stranger” decided to take his prosthetic. It - it - it - I don’t know. It’s very interesting to me to watch him really be in those three dynamic places, um, as - as a character. So, in general we get to see him running around just living his life, but like, he’s not just, adjusted and fine, like. You know, this is - this is a real trauma and a real injury and, a real um, it’s just a - a real thing that he has to - to deal with and constantly be aware of.
[Musical Interlude]
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (53:35).
R: Moving on to the wrap up and ratings. For the gratuity rating, for Marie Lyons. It’s...
N: ...This is interesting. [laughs]
R: It’s a mild - it is mild language on a severe topic.
N: With like zero details.
R: Yes, like, the - the bare bones minimum...
N: ...Ok...
R: ...so that you know.
N: Robin?
R: Yes.
N: Question for you.
R: Yes.
N: Would you consider the content warnings, just as written, generally, for this topic in our podcast to be severe content. Just the words.
R: Nope….
N: ...Then this is...
R: ...I would not...
N: ...then I would not consider this topic severe.
R: Ok.
N: Because...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...We literally only get a - a - a single sentence statement, “This thing happened to her,” done.
R: Yeah.
N: So, that’s my argument. I think it’s mild.
R: Ok.
N: And I think it is mild off screen.
R: Ah, yes, so I’d say if you - if this topic is a trigger for you to the degree that our show notes are triggering for you...
N: ...Yeah. If you - if you...
R: ...we are very sorry...
N: ...read it...
R: ...and also that’s - that’s how...
N: ...Thats...
R: ...that’s how strong your reaction...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...aversion, past trauma would have to be in order for this to be anything other than mild.
N: Yeah, if...
R: ...It’s...
N: ...just that word appearing in the wild with no context and nothing is a trigger, then this is a thing. If it’s not, you’re honestly probably fine.
R: Yep.
N: This book is so good about just really honestly protecting its readers.
R: Yeah.
N: It really is. Without sacrificing story.
R: Yep.
(55:48)
R: Uh, for the topic of racism. It’s...
N: ...ag - [laughs] again super protected.
R: Yeah. Uh, so...
N: ...This one I...
R: ...I...
N: ...This one’s not mild, only because...
R: ...This is...
N: ...the consequences...
R: ...moderate.
N: Yeah, it’s - it’s not eve - it’s not even severe. Um.
R: Yeah.
N: And - ah - ah - and I’m gonna go ahead and say it’s not even severe for similar reasons. There’s like, you’re given - you're given the basic, bare bones, framework of context, in a couple sentences. There's no major descriptions, there’s no... nothing. The character is in and out in like less than a page.
R: Yeah. It’s - it’s...
N: ...Not even...
R: ...almost - it’s almost an entire book of, “We don’t have that here and it doesn’t come up, and literally isn’t in the book,” then moderate, for a page or less.
N: Yeah.
R: And then [disgusted sigh] Earth - Earth people, boy. [laughs]
N: Just so you all know, Kohaku tried to type, and I picked her up, and now she’s licking my hand and just sitting in my lap, but her, uh, upper body is supported by hand. She’s just hanging out, like a - like a lemur almost. [laughs]
R: Hmm. Exciting.
N: She’s - she’s...
R: ...Uh.
N: She’s in episode this week.
R: This - so...
N: ...Anyways, talking about race...
R: ...Ableism.
N: …-ism.
R: Yes.
(57:20)
R: Ableism and disability, do you think the main scene with this is moderate or severe?
N: Um, I’m not sure.
R: Moderate depictions? If it had gone...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...badly, we would have had a different trauma that would have been severe.
N: I think [sighs], I think moderate depictions to a severe situation. I - I think this is definitely one of those where - I mean again, like our other two topics...
R: ...In that situation, the severe...
N: ...if you...
R: ...part wasn’t the ableism. It was the...
N: ...No, what...
R: ...someone did a weird...
N: ...No, actually I would - I would take - I would flip that.
R: Oh, ok...
N: ...Flip the severe part. I think the severe part was the ableism.
R: Okay, alright. Ok.
N: I think the actual thing that happened...
R: ...A good point...
N: ...was portrayed in a very moderate way, but the - the someone - the - the - the specific ableism of someone else taking control of your body, I think that is a severe trauma.
R: Ok.
N: Oh - only because I have - I have people who have very similar, not precisely the same, uh, disability as our main character, and somebody else inflicting decisions on you to that extent, even without the other situations, like that’s a major trauma in and of its own. But I do think, again, I do think the portrayal is moderate. I - I don’t think it was portrayed in a severe way, but I do think the actual active ableism was pretty severe. That’s why I don’t actually know how to rate this one. You guys...
R: ...Uh...
N: ...it’s really when books are very good. [laughs] It’s hard when books do a good job, because we can’t just - then we have to really think about how we’re - how we're - we’re wording this, and so we’re - we apologize if it sounds like we’re saying the same things over and over. We promise we’re not trying to do that.
R: And like we’re here to assess this for you, it just...
N: ...Right...
R: ...gets tricky when we have to untangle, was this mild or handled with care?
N: Yes.
R: Or both? That’s…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...that’s the - that’s...
N: ...Or...
R: ...dance that’s happening right now.
N: Or even was this mild, handled with care, and also I’m sensitive to it.
R: Yeah.
N: Like, there’s - there’s that too.
R: Yeah.
N: Or...
R: ...So...
N: ...or the opposite and in this case where I know I’m not sensitive to this thing, so would it have been a more severe scene if I was? This is...
R: ...I think I’ll go ahead and…
N: ... this is the...
R: ...say...
N: ...only - this is the only topic of our three that has any kind of on screen, like, descriptions associated with it. I will say that. It's the only one.
R: Yeah.
N: That - so like it’s definitely not mild. We do - we do see what is happening to this character.
R: Let’s go ahead and say severe because the thing that was done was so...
N: ...You said invasive...
R: ...invasive maybe beyond...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...the pale.
N: Yeah, and - and in context potentially life threatening. It was...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...a thing.
R: Yep. So, leaving that on the gratuity rating.
(1:00:28)
R: Then for whether or not the traumas are integral, interchangeable, or irrelevant. For Marie Lyons, interchangeable.
N: Interchangeable, agreed.
R: There’s enough set up that I think other options would be worse decisions, but it is still interchangeable.
N: Yeah, and - and it’s - it’s interchangeable, but also the particular thing chosen, was set up to make sense very well. It was not shoehorned in at all. It was not gratuity...
R: ...No...
N: ...at all. It was not gratuitous, sorry, at all.
R: Mmhmm.
N: It is - it was definitely just - it - it made - it made sense, but - but yeah. Definitely interchangeable, there could have been other things. There could have been…
R: ...Yep...
N: ...a lot of other things. We had some set up for other things even...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...as well. Additional...
R: ...The...
N: ...set up for other things.
(1:01:24)
R: Moving on to the racism. I think that...
N: ...I think…
R: ...is...
N: ...this is...
R: ...I think it’s either interchangeable or irrelevant...
N: ...No...
R: ...so.
N: I disagree, it’s not irrelevant.
R: Ok, so interch - ok my - my only thing...
N: [laughs]
R: ...and the only reason I’m saying...
N: ...I realize that was a quick response but...
R: ...when - when - when the point is to - ‘cause it’s - it’s not the only thing like this that gets pointed out as the, “Boy howdy, Earth is not ok.” I think in that sense, it could have been swapped with something else. That is...
N: ...That is…
R: ...why I was saying interchangeable.
N: That is fair, but I - I would like to push for - so the actual - the actual...
R: ...The trauma...
N: ...the trauma itself, I would agree would be interchangeable. I think the context for the trauma was definitely integral.
R: Oh sure, it is integral that - yeah, in the - the framing. Everything on Luna was integral, the only thing related to it that was traumatic was interchangeable.
N:Yes.
R: It - so, yeah. Um.
N: So, interchangeable?
R: Yes. The trauma...
N: ...Ok...
R: ...is interchangeable. Um, taking out the backstory...
N: ...I mean and even with this same - same set up and similar trauma, the actual events would have been - could have been interchangeable too.
R: Right, that’s - yeah, so - that’s why I was thinking possibly irrelevant for the trauma.
N: Yeah, I - I don’t think the trauma’s irrelevant. It...
R: ...Ok...
N: ...It’s not even plot irrelevant, like it is - they talk about the fact that it was like - it was super - it - it - even if - if you stopped the story there, irrelevant, but the - but the way the story continued on, made it absolutely like something needed to have happened.
R: Ok. Ok, that’s fair.
N: That’s my...
R: ...Something...
N: ...that’s my argument.
R: Something needed to have happened, interchangeable. Ok.
N: Ok.
(1:03:33)
R: Then for the ableism it is…
N: ...It is integral...
R: ...integral, yeah.
N: It - it’s literally this person’s - this characters’ day to day.
R: Yeah.
N: Not - not necessarily ableism itself but um, just...
R: ...Also...
N: ...the life...
R: ...for like, this is not a spoiler, this is the first chapter, we have a...
N: [laughs]
R: ...main character with a prosthetic. We have a main character with a missing limb and a prosthetic…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...and...
N: ...It’s not just like...
R: ...it’s like...
N: ...they had cool cataract surgery for a prosthesis, like no. They’re...
R: ...Wait...
N: ...missing an arm. Like that’s a...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...that’s a thing.
R: That's a thing, um, and it’s handled - it’s handled so well, people. If you skipped the descriptions and like, I...
N: ...I - I...
R: ...it’s handled...
N: ...I would like to...
R: ...really well...
N: ...I would like to give you a like a one sentence summary of something I said in the topic, just in case you did skip.
R: Sure.
N: Um, we see this character in three different modes. We see them functional, good to go, enjoying the benefits of having multiple prosthesis - prosthesi? Prosthesis? Prosthetics.
R: Prostheses. Prosthetics.
N: Prostheses [laughs]. It’s a weird word to say, um, but he has multiple um, prosthetic arms, and we see him in his element thriving. We see that. We also see him contextualized and having conversations where we see him relfe - almost uh, reflecting a little bit. Not super deep, but reflecting a little bit on the fact that this is a loss. This was - this was a major life change for him, and even though he's doing ok now, he would not have given up that arm on purpose, even if he knew what he would have now. Like that arm - that mattered. That was a - that was a major trauma, and we also see him at one point without an arm, and just it was not - not ok. And - and we - but we see him - we see him in all three dynamics. It’s a very dynamic, very um, just - just very good set up and none of it is for show, and none of it is glorification of - of - or, that’s not the right word. Um, none of it is a feel good story to make you go, “Oh the disabled person,” like no. It’s just a thing that he lives with day to day, and we just are part of his day to day for a book, and so you just know about it. But - but it’s present, all the time, which arm he has in place, which prosthetic he is using is crucial to his function, and his life, and he - he mentions it. It’s not just a thing that happens like, nope. It’s - it’s a major part of the story.
(1:06:36)
R: So, moving onto was the trauma treated with care. Uh, for Marie Lyons, yes. So...
N: ...Absolutely...
R: ...much care. So much - so much care that attempting to discuss what happened...
N: [laughs]
R: ...is more traumatic than the literal text of what happened.
N: Yeah.
R: And that is not often some - like that’s...
N: ...Like that’s not often true...
R: ...I think it’s…
N: ...for anything, but especially a topic this - this...
R: ...Especially a topic...
N: ...bad...
R: ...we picked for this podcast.
N: Yeah.
R: Uh, yeah. Um, yeah spending more than one sentence.
N: [laughs]
R: Uh, anyway.
(1:07:22)
R: For the racism, yes. I think it was treated with care.
N: I think it - I think there’s...
R: ...At minimum, enough.
N: I mean you can’t have treated it with less care without it being written out completely.
R: Yeah.
N: Like there’s...
R: ...So I think...
N: ...there’s literally no other way to treat it with - with more care. [sighs]
R: Yeah.
(1:07:41)
R: Uh, then the uh, ableism and disability.
N: I think it was.
R: At least...
N: ...I think...
R: ...enough...
N: ...treated with care. I - I would have to defer. I almost want to either find out - I have a friend, I almost want to find out if he’s read this book, or recommend it to him and see what he thinks, but I also realize that’s pushing emotional labor on somebody else. Uh, but I - I - I feel like I personally don’t have enough context to say if this is treated with enough, or just with care. But as far as like, from an abled readers’ perspective, he - he’s just - he’s a very well rounded, nuanced, dynamic character who is disabled....
R: Well, uh...
N: ...But...
R: ...in - in our main topic I pushed back against the idea that he is disabled when he is on Luna because he is in no way disabled. He merely does not have a bio arm on that side. It is...
N: ...Well no, but he...
R: ...only - it’s only when someone...
N: ...but he is - he is disabled. Uh.
R: Ok.
N: I for - ok I - full - here’s my - here’s my logic behind this.
R: Ok.
N: I wear glasses. My eyes are awful.
R: Mmhmm.
N: If I take off my glasses for reader context - for our listener context, if I take my glasses off in order to read twelve point font, the book has to be within five inches of my nose, maybe closer actually. My eyes are terrible. I don’t stop being - like if - if we - if we hadn’t - like I mean - I guess technically that is a chronic disability actually, ‘cause if you take away my assisted device, if you take away my glasses I - I am, I think legally blind. Pretty sure.
R: Mmhmm.
N: I don’t stop being disabled when I put on my glasses.
R: Ok. Alright. Um.
N: And I - I realize that glasses are the socially accepted non stigmatized against disa - prosth - um, assistant aid to need, like I’m - I’m not saying I suffer from ableism all the time, or ever, because I need glasses. I am arguing that I don’t stop needing glasses just because I put them on. I don’t stop having awful eyes because I put on glasses.
R: Ok. That - alright.
N: That’s my logic.
R: Again, if you’ve read this book, we are interested in what you think about this.
N: Yes, please.
R: Um, we - we have the biases and perspectives that we have and...
N: [laughs]
R: ...that’s - that’s where we are. Ok, uh, but I...
N: ...I’m not even sure where...
R: ...do think...
N: ...ok. We’ve come to a consensus on that one. I - I...
R: ...I do think - I - I’m gonna go ahead and…
N: ...It’s at least enough...
R: ...enough.
N: Yeah, ‘cause we - we - we don’t - we don’t have the pers - the perspective to definitively say just yes on this one.
R: Mmhmm.
N: It - yeah, so enough.
R: Yeah.
(1:10:45)
N: Um, oh, perspective. [laughs] Point of view.
R: Point of view.
N: [laughs]. Mannie.
R: The point of view, it’s Mannie for...
N: ...This is our...
R: ...everything.
N: This is our third book, wait...
R: It’s - uh, we’ve had a lot...
N: ...fourth - fourth episode in our recording order which is - I - fair to say, not the same order you guys are gonna hear this. It’s the fourth episode in our recording schedule, uh, where we have had a single character perspective.
R: Yeah, uh, we’re recording this right after we’re recording “Hunger Games” is what happened, and so...
N: ...And - and...
R: ...we’re...
N: …”Hunger Games”...
R: ...after...
N: …”Hunger Games” is right after “Coraline”.
R: Oh that’s true...
N: ...Oh...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...Oh no! And - and um, the “Hork Bajir Chronicles,” oh no that had multiple perspectives.
R: Yep.
N: Ok, it’s fine. But, yeah, we had - we had like five recordings in a row…
R: ...Where it’s like...
N: ...that are like…
R: ...single person this whole time.
N: Yeah, two...
R: ...Well I guess - I guess “Hork Bajir” was last - was last week and so that broke it up a little bit, but...
N: ...Eh...
R: ...we’ve had - we’ve had a pretty good run of single character perspectives...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...for our recording schedule.
N: Yeah.
R: Uh.
N: But fortunately, you as our listeners are not going to experience them in that order, so it’s ok.
R: Yep. Uh, but yep it’s Mannie for everything. Which is...
N: ...It makes sense…
R: ...helpful when it’s his topics and…
N: [laughs]
R: ...a little less helpful when it’s Marie Lyons because…
N: ...Mmmmm or - or…
R: ...he didn’t meet her, ever.
N: Uh, true.
R: Yeah.
N: It - it is very much set up - I - I actually really like that it’s just Mannie, I think it makes sense, only because…
R: ...Oh sure, it does.
N: This…
R: ...I’m just saying it’s not as…
N: ...this is…
R: ...helpful for our podcast.
N: Oh yes, definitely, yeah.
R: Like, I’m not saying it’s a bad decision for the book, it just makes…
N: ...No…
R: ...the podcast trickier.
N: This is very different from “Hunger Games” and “Coraline” where we’re not watching events happen in real time. Uh, Mannie is the main character, but he’s also the narrator. He’s talking about events in his past.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Uh, so if it was from anyone else’s perspective, that would be a jarring shift in - in…
R: ...Oh sure…
N: ...book tone if nothing else, that would have been very difficult to - to read and - and kind of parse through um…
R: ...Alright…
N: ...so it - it makes sense that it’s all him, but it is all him.
(1:13:14)
R: Do you have an aspiring writer tip.
N: I mean I feel like I feel like I’ve given the tip I wanna give before, which isn’t ideal.
R: Hmm. Uh, ok, I think I have one.
N: Ok.
R: You don’t need to walk around labeling the races of all your characters.
N: Yeah.
R: Hello most - most fiction ever.
N: Or - or at least, you don’t need to - you - you don’t need to label only the nonwhite characters. Let’s go...
R: ...Oh yeah, good point...
N: ...let’s go that far and just say, “Hey, presumed caucasian ethnicity...
R: ...don’t do the presumed caucasian thing.
N: Stop - don’t just stop that as a reader, stop that as a writer. Please.
R: Yes please.
N: This book is so good. It’s so good with that. Eh - it’s - it’s amazing...
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...and - yeah. And - ah - and - and can I just say, it’s good at that, and it’s also not irrelevant to the story. This is not a backlog. This is not a like twenty years later, “Oh yeah, that person was completely a person of color. That person was definitely of this descent,” like no.
R: Mm mm.
N: It’s explicit in the text, and also it’s unassumed.
R: Yep.
N: It’s cool.
(1:14:37)
R: Alright, what was your favorite non traumatic thing about the book?
N: [sighs] Uh? Oh my gosh, there’s so many. Ok, this is not a spoiler I promise, it’s in like the first, I don't know, ten pages? Uh.
R: Mmhmm.
N: I like Mike’s jokes.
R: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
N: [laughs] I particularly like his inquiry and study into the uh - the nature of humor. [laughs] And I like how they went about it. I like how Mannie was going to teach him it’s - I - I like the set up. I think it’s well executed. I think it was funny to read. Um, [laughs] I just - I liked that [sighs] - I liked that - I - I liked his - ok, I will say this, so when I was younger, reading this, I already kind of knew these categories but this book did a really good job of stark contrastly outlining for young me the difference between funny never, funny once, and funny always.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And specifically, in that one scene, uh, with Wyoh it - it also outlined that something can be funny once or funny never to one person and funny always to someone else, and it’s con - it’s contextual. And I just like - I like how it’s broken down, and I like - I like Mike’s jokes...
R: ...Yep...
N: ...as a whole concept.
R: Alright, my...
N: ...It’s my favorite...
R: ...my favorite non traumatic thing, um, I - I just - I really liked the really cool form of polyamory embedded in this book...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...that’s a line marriage. Um, it’s - it’s really cool. I am aware that it would be problematic and has the potential to be pedophelic or ephebophilic if it were to happen in real life on Earth, because people are terrible.
N: Yeah.
R: But, as it is depicted in this book, it’s this - it’s this really cool thing that is a way to sustain and take care of people over generations in a situation where they are not allowed to make their own laws.
N: Mmhmm. Yeah. I - I honestly, I really like all of the - I - I like - I know I’m tacking onto yours.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Yours is also one of my favorites. Uh, I like the variety of polyamory.
R: Mmhmm,
N: And - and nobody's arguing that one is better or worse, or there’s, like...
R: ...There are several people saying, “Stop trying to act “ - to Earth people...
N: [laughs]
R: “...Stop trying to act like one is better or worse. What are you doing.”
N: Yeah. [laughs]
R: Uh, where Mannie has to explain what a simple divorce would be.
N: [laughs]
R: So if a woman decides to divorce one of her two husbands...
N: ...Let’s say she only...
R: ...but husband...
N: ...has two - let’s say...
R: ...and the husbands...
N: ...she only has two to keep nice and...
R: ...are business partners..
N: ...contained.
R: Right.
N: The guy is like, “Uh, that’s not simple. Oh no.” [laughs]
R: [laughs]
N: It’s very - it’s really - it’s really almost - it’s almost comical to read. You’re - but you’re not laughing at the custom, you’re totally laughing at the per - at the person who doesn't get it, and it’s just like, “Ah.” Not - not in like a mean way, but just like, yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s - it’s good. It’s well written.
R: Yup.
(1:18:14)
R: Alright, that’s it. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, I liked this book way more than I thought I was going to. And, I feel like we keep picking books that handle stuff well, and I know that streak isn’t gonna go forever...
N: ...Oh we’ve got some in…
R: ...but for now...
N: ... the pipeline that do not.
R: Uh. Yay. Well, that will be a thing. Uh, thank you so much for joining us this fortnight, and we will see you later.
Outro: Begins at 1:18:14.
[Musical Interlude]
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
N: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.
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N: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.
R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.