Sabriel
Series 1 Episode 1
Book 1 of The Old Kingdom Series by Garth Nix
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
Our first episode is about the book Sabriel, book one in the Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:01-1:05)
N: Hey everybody, since we are either starting a new series or reading a stand-alone book, I'm jumping in to remind you what the rules are for this podcast. First rule is: no real-people stories. That means that any details from our own lives are merely anecdotal, and we are not reading any books that depict real people as their characters in any way or are based on historical events. Second rule is that we are judging everything off of how the author treats characters and what they put them through. We are not judging the accuracy of the trauma, the accuracy of any actual conditions that may be portrayed, or the authenticity of a character's reaction to that trauma or that particular condition. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (1:06-1:20)
Plot Synopsis (1:20-1:34)
N: In “Sabriel”, the first installment of “The Old Kingdom”, Sabriel is confronted with the end of her childhood, and the full magnitude of her role as Abhorsen, the one who keeps the dead down, searching for her father and discovering her place in the world as she is hunted by new and old enemies alike.
Factions (1:38-5:03)
Topic 2: Sabriel dealing with human death. Begins at (11:25), CW for death, loss of family member, animal death, swearing/language.
N: Ok, so, moving onto our main character, Sabriel. Um the first topic we’re gonna talk about with Sabriel is her first experience with a - the physicality in the actual moment of a human death. Um, Sabriel - so it’s important to note here, Sabriel’s been training to be an Abhorsen, her dad has been training her her whole life. She has a - an intimate familiarity with death and its river and its - its gates, and um she hasn’t gone through all of them but I think she states in the book that she’d gone up through the 5th precinct?
R: Yeah, like at some point she says how many and then also like there’s this bit where she lists, she’s like “I banished a Modicant when I was this age…”
N: ...yeah...
R: “...and I closed the final page of the book of the dead a year ago, I don’t feel young anymore.”
N: Yeah, like she’s not - this is not like death itself and - and what happens after you die. Those are things that are …
R: ...Like there’s even…
N: Like they’re not even weird to her anymore, like...
R: “…death and what came after…”
N: ...it’s just a part of her life
R: “...was no mystery for Sabriel, she wished it was.”
N: Yes. Um and then obviously she’s familiar with life and people that are alive, um, and there’s a moment - the very - literally the beginning of the book, um, where her friends or one of the younger students I don’t know if they’re actually friends, but, one of the younger students, her bunny rabbit got out and got, and died. It got hit by a car? maybe?
R: I think? Yeah, because it was on the road, so.
N: Yeah, and Sabriel steps into death, and grabs the bunny spirit...
R: ...It was run over...
N: ...and sticks it back in the bunny, and the bunny is good to go now.
R: Yeah the first, the first lines in the book are, “the rabbit had been run over minutes before.”
N: Ok,yeah.
R: After the, after the prologue, that is the first thing.
N: So, like we see like our first introduction to Sabriel as a character is her stepping into death, and grabbing a bunny and putting it back in its body so it’s alive again. Um.
R: Yeah.
N: But then later on, after she’s back in the Old Kingdom and trying to find her father and figure out what is even going on here and survive and not, you know, get found by the things pursuing her and stuff like that, um, she finds a - a charter mark on a - I think it’s on a...
R: It’s a bridge.
N: It’s on a bridge?
R: It’s on the post of the bridge.
N: That;s what I - I was trying to remember if it was on a fence post or a bridge. Um, and the way, like message charter marks work in this universe work, you can touch it and hear the whole message essentially. Um, so she does that, and this is these soldiers - it’s their dying moments where they’re trying to leave any information for anyone who can find it and hear it and listen to it, and at the very very end of the message, the soldier dies, right before the message ends, and that - that moment of that death, um, that was the first time Sabriel had ever experienced a human death, like the moment of a human death herself.
15:10
R: And even then it’s a little bit removed because it was like the message of it.
N: This is true.
R: Yeah, but it’s like - I put that out mostly because it slowly escalates throughout the book.
N: Yeah.
R: Because, first she has the message recording the moment of someone's death, and then a bunch of people die but they're not like nearby when um, it’s the - when she’s at Abhorsen’s house.
N: Mmhmm. Oh yeah.
R: A bunch of people dying in the river, so it’s like it’s a bunch of them, but they’re not - they're not - not super close and then it’s the guy, um, where that dead thing was riding him...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...and it just uses him up and chucks him.
N: Yeah.
R: So it feels like an esc[alation]- a very, it’s a gentle escalation on a - on a rough subject.
N: Yeah.
R: But it - it feels - feels like a pretty natural buildup so it’s not like “Oh we’re gonna have a death in like a most deathy-death way ever.”
N: [laughs]
R: But, but it does have - it does have a pretty natural build of like, we got a recording of someone dying...
N: ...Then we have a death...
R: ...that includes a little bit more death. Then we have - then we have like some deaths, um, and then we have someone dying like right in front of her and then her having to fight the dead thing that killed him. And then we have like - the - the climax at the end with um - briefly mentioning, that it - it builds up to, we’re gonna - our next segment will be talking more about the death of Sabriel’s father, but it - it kind of is this escalation, it builds up to, um, Astarael, her having to fight to not fall into death, and also feeling her father pass.
N: Yeah.
R: And I think it’s a very well done escalation, where it - it kinda goes from like “I've got this, I’ve been in Death a bunch, I’ve banished all these...
N:[laughs] ...This naivety...
R: ...I - I am hot shit.” Like, “I can do all this stuff, I don’t feel young anymore. Oh! I’ve never actually felt a person die,”
N: [laughs]
R: Um, “Oh my goodness, all these people are dying in the river, and I can’t do anything, I’ve got to stay here,” and then,”
N: Yeah.
R: “I couldn’t save this guy.”
N: And she talks too about um, about feeling the shock of it. That is - that’s actually a consistent…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...a consistent thing throughout in general all the books, and I don’t think we’ll touch on this again so.
18:07
R: She’s not getting numbed...
N: ...no...
R: ...but she’s definitely getting acclimatized.
N: Oh yeah. You - you definitely acclimated to it, um...
R: ...Acclimated that’s it...
N: ...if you can feel it.
R: Acclimatized isn’t a word, I don’t know why I went for that. Yeah, getting acclimated to death in a more visceral way.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Because she was totally a student of death.
N: Oh yeah.
R: Like a good one.
N: Um, but there’s this - there’s a very consistent descriptor throughout all the books of the first time or the first couple times that someone who has this death sense feels that moment of death, it is a shock.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s - it is shocking, and it is - it’s all they can think about for a second because they - they just felt and it was, it - it is traumatic, um.
R: Yeah.
N: And - and I think that - it is, it is one of those things where, we’ll get to this in our reading also but, um it’s a very necessary trauma, um...
R: For the story to happen yeah.
N: Well for Sabriel in general, like...
R: Yeah.
N: It - it is something that would happen because she can sense death.
R: The only way to not - the only way to get around it is to have it be that if - if it hadn’t been the first time.
N: Oh yeah.
R: The first time didn’t have to take place in this book, but the book couldn’t happen...
N: ...That is true...
R: ...without this happening a lot.
N: But everyone who can sense death...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...will have this moment where they experience death for the first time and um, but also she definitely does get acclimated to it by the end of the book, like, she’s very aware still when people are dying, um.
R: But by the end...
N: ...But it’s not...
R: …of the book...
N: ...distracting...
R: ...she’s killing people...
N: ...anymore.
R: Right. By the end of the book she’s killing people.
N: Yeah, she is causing that - that death.
N: Hi, I’m Nicole.
R: And I’m Robin, and today we are discussing “Sabriel”, by Garth Nix, book one of “The Old Kingdom” series.
N: Ok, so our factions for this book: we have Sabriel, our main character, we have Touchstone, who is also our minor character spotlight, we have Mogget the cat (for now), uh we have the old Abhorsen, who is Sabriel’s dad, we have the army at the perimeter between the Old Kingdom and… how do you say that?
R: Ancelstierre
N: Ancelstierre. Okay. Uh, and then we have the teachers and students at Sabriel’s college, which is Waverley college.
N: So our minor character, huh?
R: Super quick factions thing.
N: Yes.
R: Uh, Sabriel’s dad uh, who... she thought his name was Abhorsen, uh when I was a kid and I read the books, I thought his name was “Emeritus”, because Mogget, when he needs to distinguish, calls him “Abhorsen Emeritus”.
N: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
R: It was upon rereading this book, and being an adult who knew what “emeritus” meant...
N: ...Oh my gosh...
R: ...was when I realized that that was not his name.
N: Can you give a brief definition for “emeritus”, just for any...
R: ...Ah, “emeritus” is - a...
N: ...listener who does not know
R: ...basically, it’s - it’s latin for something that probably means “the former”, um
N: Oh yeah.
R: That’s how it is used in english.[typing sounds] Uh, yeah, “emeritus” is the former holder of an office and the reason I now know it is because you’ll have a “professor emeritus”, it’s, you know someone who’s retired, could teach a class if they want, and the college still calls them a professor, even though they don’t necessarily teach there anymore.
N: So, Mogget was trying to say like, “Hey…”
R: ...He’s dead…
N: “... he’s not him anymore.”
R: ... and if he’s not dead, he’s not coming back to his job.
N: Yeah.
R: So it’s a way of being respectful, and not stripping a title, while still indicating that you’re not currently filling the position.
N: Ok. Yeah. Cool. Yeah I also - I don’t remember what I thought his name was when I was a kid, I do remember thinking - actually no, I think I just thought we never learned his name?
R: Mmhmm. Yeah, I definitely thought “Oh good, his name is Emeritus.” Except I thought it was Am-er-eye-tas, yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: So minor fun thing in case someone else thought his name was “Emeritus”.
N: [laughs] Or thought he was nameless like me.
R: I mean, we don’t get his name, it’s not “Emeritus”.
N: We do! Well...
R: No - no, we don’t. That's the whole thing. We never find out what his name is, we just have his title and then we have “no longer holding title”. He’s only ever referred to as Abhorsen, or Abhorsen Emeritus.
N: Huh, ok.
R: Yeah. Which I think is part of the point...
N: ...Yeah, at least for this book...
R: ..his identity is being the Abhorsen, and so it’s pointing Sabriel towards that being her whole identity. So, minor, minor thing.
Topic 1: Touchstone's PTSD and loss. Begins at (5:03), CW for loss (family, culture, identity), PTSD, mocking nickname, death, ritual sacrifice.
R: Um, so, for our minor character spotlight we are going to discuss Touchstone, who was, uhhh, preserved as a wooden figurine, uh, at the front of a ship, for 200 years. And before that he was the half brother of Rogir, the prince, who is the one who broke the kingdom and got everybody killing people more. But there were - always necromancers. But Rogir ushered in a new era of terribleness.
N: Yeah, and - and specifically with our spotlight, we’re not actually focusing as much on the 200 year slippage...
R: ...Right...
N: ...uh, because that is a big deal, and it definitely affects Touchstone, but um, we don’t get as much of Touchstone’s reaction to that as we do to Rogir’s betrayal, and the trauma that he suffered right before he fell into that sleep. Rogir was - was the prince, left, came back, and then brought I believe it was indicated, all currently living members of the royal family, including Touchstone, down where the great charter stones were and was planning on breaking every single one of the great stones, by sacrificing a family member on each stone.
R: Yep.
N: He only broke two, um, but Touchstone - part of this trauma with Touchstone, is that he was instrumental with getting the other people to go down to the reservoir. Like, Rogir was his best friend, and comes to him and says, “Hey, help me,” like “I’ve got this cool thing down there, and I just - I want to show everybody, and help me convince my mom, the Queen, and my sister to go down with us,” because the Queen - didn’t want to go.
R: It was just convincing the Queen I thought, because the sisters were already down there, which is why two stones were broken already.
N: Oh, ok.
R: Unless they had so many sisters, but at least the - the two stones that were broken, it was broken with the sisters as they got down there.
N: Yeah.
R: The stones were broken which means they weren’t the ones walking with the Queen.
N: Yes, but he - he needed the Queen, I think for the - to get all the stones. And - and Touchstone was the reason that the Queen went because he - he backed Rogir up - Rogir up, even you know, without knowing what it was because he trusted him. He was his best friend, he was his half-brother, he was the Prince, and...
R: Yeah.
N: He didn’t see anything suspicious in that. So, then, as they got down to the reservoir, they saw a couple of Rogir’s undead servants, um, cracking a stone, with his sister’s - his sister’s blood. Like they saw it happen, and then Touchstone, lost a lot of the memory there, and then woke up 200 years later with this trauma, with the fact that he... he was a - instigator in it, he was an accomplice to it, um, fresh in his head. That was the memory fresh in his head.
R: Like even with his - his name, his name is, is we’re told, is a fool's name. Um, Mogget named him Touchstone, and he starts to protest and says “No that’s a jester’s name, that’s a fools name” and Mogget’s basically like “But you were a massive idiot, so don’t you think it’s appropriate?”
N: Yeah, like “Uh, sounds about right, problem?”
R: And this is the first hint that something more - that he was like more than just a victim in some way, because we have that - we learn that before we get his backstory.
(8:53)
N: Yep. Um, and - and there’s a lot of very stereotypically, and I say stereotypically on purpose, PTSD-type representation of his memories of this and his reaction to them, um, we get a literal description of the first time he goes down to show Sabriel the reservoir. He - he freezes, he has a panic attack at the top of the stairs.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And - and not because of the broken charter stones, although that is also traumatic for them in - in a different way, and not because of the undead, ‘cause this is a point where there is undead literally everywhere. Like them freezing and holding still is more dangerous than going down to that reservoir in the moment, um. But he - he has a panic attack because he flashes back to the last time he walked down those steps, he was unwittingly leading the Queen to her death. It was - I don’t remember, do we know if the Queen or the King was his parent?
R: Um, I didn’t get the impression that a Kind was still in the picture, because I think Rogir was older and the Queen didn’t marry Touchstone’s father.
N: Ok, so then he’s literally leading the - he flashes back to leading his mother to her death.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, and there’s a - there’s a couple other moments, because they had to go destroy Rogir’s body, or that was the plan anyway, um, and it was on the other side of the wall, um, outside the Old Kingdom, and they go and they get the body, and again, like getting close this - to the source of his magic, there’s - there’s other reasons why that’s a difficult thing emotionally or physically, or magically for people to do, but again, there’s a couple of moments where Touchstone just - just freezes, he just can’t.
R: Yeah.
N: And - and Sabriel has to be kinda like “Hey, hey come one, I need you. Heh. Are you alright? Are we doing ok?” And then he kinda snaps out of it, but like he very much flashes back to that, multiple times, um, when confronted with anything that - that, that reminds him or relates to that - that moment when he, he lead the Queen down and then saw his sister killed.
Topic 2: Sabriel dealing with human death. Begins at (11:25), CW for death, loss of family member, animal death, swearing/language.
N: Ok, so, moving onto our main character, Sabriel. Um the first topic we’re gonna talk about with Sabriel is her first experience with a - the physicality in the actual moment of a human death. Um, Sabriel - so it’s important to note here, Sabriel’s been training to be an Abhorsen, her dad has been training her her whole life. She has a - an intimate familiarity with death and its river and its - its gates, and um she hasn’t gone through all of them but I think she states in the book that she’d gone up through the 5th precinct?
R: Yeah, like at some point she says how many and then also like there’s this bit where she lists, she’s like “I banished a Modicant when I was this age…”
N: ...yeah...
R: “...and I closed the final page of the book of the dead a year ago, I don’t feel young anymore.”
N: Yeah, like she’s not - this is not like death itself and - and what happens after you die. Those are things that are …
R: ...Like there’s even…
N: Like they’re not even weird to her anymore, like...
R: “…death and what came after…”
N: ...it’s just a part of her life
R: “...was no mystery for Sabriel, she wished it was.”
N: Yes. Um and then obviously she’s familiar with life and people that are alive, um, and there’s a moment - the very - literally the beginning of the book, um, where her friends or one of the younger students I don’t know if they’re actually friends, but, one of the younger students, her bunny rabbit got out and got, and died. It got hit by a car? maybe?
R: I think? Yeah, because it was on the road, so.
N: Yeah, and Sabriel steps into death, and grabs the bunny spirit...
R: ...It was run over...
N: ...and sticks it back in the bunny, and the bunny is good to go now.
R: Yeah the first, the first lines in the book are, “the rabbit had been run over minutes before.”
N: Ok,yeah.
R: After the, after the prologue, that is the first thing.
N: So, like we see like our first introduction to Sabriel as a character is her stepping into death, and grabbing a bunny and putting it back in its body so it’s alive again. Um.
R: Yeah.
N: But then later on, after she’s back in the Old Kingdom and trying to find her father and figure out what is even going on here and survive and not, you know, get found by the things pursuing her and stuff like that, um, she finds a - a charter mark on a - I think it’s on a...
R: It’s a bridge.
N: It’s on a bridge?
R: It’s on the post of the bridge.
N: That’s what I - I was trying to remember if it was on a fence post or a bridge. Um, and the way, like message charter marks work in this universe work, you can touch it and hear the whole message essentially. Um, so she does that, and this is these soldiers - it’s their dying moments where they’re trying to leave any information for anyone who can find it and hear it and listen to it, and at the very very end of the message, the soldier dies, right before the message ends, and that - that moment of that death, um, that was the first time Sabriel had ever experienced a human death, like the moment of a human death herself.
(15:10)
R: And even then it’s a little bit removed because it was like the message of it.
N: This is true.
R: Yeah, but it’s like - I put that out mostly because it slowly escalates throughout the book.
N: Yeah.
R: Because, first she has the message recording the moment of someone's death, and then a bunch of people die but they're not like nearby when um, it’s the - when she’s at Abhorsen’s house.
N: Mmhmm. Oh yeah.
R: A bunch of people dying in the river, so it’s like it’s a bunch of them, but they’re not - they're not - not super close and then it’s the guy, um, where that dead thing was riding him...
N: ...Yes...
R: ...and it just uses him up and chucks him.
N: Yeah.
R: So it feels like an esc[alation]- a very, it’s a gentle escalation on a - on a rough subject.
N: Yeah.
R: But it - it feels - feels like a pretty natural buildup so it’s not like “Oh we’re gonna have a death in like a most deathy-death way ever.”
N: [laughs]
R: But, but it does have - it does have a pretty natural build of like, we got a recording of someone dying...
N: ...Then we have a death...
R: ...that includes a little bit more death. Then we have - then we have like some deaths, um, and then we have someone dying like right in front of her and then her having to fight the dead thing that killed him. And then we have like - the - the climax at the end with um - briefly mentioning, that it - it builds up to, we’re gonna - our next segment will be talking more about the death of Sabriel’s father, but it - it kind of is this escalation, it builds up to, um, Astarael, her having to fight to not fall into death, and also feeling her father pass.
N: Yeah.
R: And I think it’s a very well done escalation, where it - it kinda goes from like “I've got this, I’ve been in Death a bunch, I’ve banished all these...
N:[laughs] ...This naivety...
R: ...I - I am hot shit.” Like, “I can do all this stuff, I don’t feel young anymore. Oh! I’ve never actually felt a person die,”
N: [laughs]
R: Um, “Oh my goodness, all these people are dying in the river, and I can’t do anything, I’ve got to stay here,” and then,”
N: Yeah.
R: “I couldn’t save this guy.”
N: And she talks too about um, about feeling the shock of it. That is - that’s actually a consistent…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...a consistent thing throughout in general all the books, and I don’t think we’ll touch on this again so.
(18:07)
R: She’s not getting numbed...
N: ...no...
R: ...but she’s definitely getting acclimatized.
N: Oh yeah. You - you definitely acclimated to it, um...
R: ...Acclimated that’s it...
N: ...if you can feel it.
R: Acclimatized isn’t a word, I don’t know why I went for that. Yeah, getting acclimated to death in a more visceral way.
N: Mmhmm.
R: Because she was totally a student of death.
N: Oh yeah.
R: Like a good one.
N: Um, but there’s this - there’s a very consistent descriptor throughout all the books of the first time or the first couple times that someone who has this death sense feels that moment of death, it is a shock.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s - it is shocking, and it is - it’s all they can think about for a second because they - they just felt and it was, it - it is traumatic, um.
R: Yeah.
N: And - and I think that - it is, it is one of those things where, we’ll get to this in our reading also but, um it’s a very necessary trauma, um...
R: For the story to happen yeah.
N: Well for Sabriel in general, like...
R: Yeah.
N: It - it is something that would happen because she can sense death.
R: The only way to not - the only way to get around it is to have it be that if - if it hadn’t been the first time.
N: Oh yeah.
R: The first time didn’t have to take place in this book, but the book couldn’t happen...
N: ...That is true...
R: ...without this happening a lot.
N: But everyone who can sense death...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...will have this moment where they experience death for the first time and um, but also she definitely does get acclimated to it by the end of the book, like, she’s very aware still when people are dying, um.
R: But by the end...
N: ...But it’s not...
R: …of the book...
N: ...distracting...
R: ...she’s killing people...
N: ...anymore.
R: Right. By the end of the book she’s killing people.
N: Yeah, she is causing that - that death.
Topic 3: Sabriel dealing with the loss of her father. Begins at (20:06), CW for death of a parent, grief, denial of loss.
N: So our last topic is the death of Sabriel’s father. Um, and this is a weird one in this story because when we start the book he’s already dead.
R: He’s already in Death. Let's make that distinction.
N: I mean, I - I would argue he’s already dead.
R: Ok. Well I think that...
N: ...Because when…
R: ...the book has a lot of ambiguity about that.
N: I mean the book does, but not when she finds him at the end.
R: True. Yeah, he is...
N: ...And - and I would argue - argue that the book has less ambiguity, that Sabriel is fighting for ambiguity.
R: Ok.
N: Because...
R: ...because everybody else that is like “You know he’s dead right?”
N: [laughs] Yeah, everybody else is like…
R: “...he sent…”
N: “Hey, he gave you the bells…”
R: “... He sent you the bells and the sword…”
N: “...and the sword,” Like, “He - he sent you his only instruments that matter, he’s not coming back.” And she doesn’t want to accept that, um, which is actually why we’re talking about this being as traumatic as it is, and why we listed this after her experience of a human death.
R: Right.
N: She starts out the book, getting his bells and his sword. And then, and - and she - she doesn’t believe it. She doesn't believe that he’s dead, she’s firmly completely certain that he’s trapped somewhere, and she can free him, and she can find him, and he’ll be alive and she has to do is find his body and it’ll be all ok in the end, and then when she...
R: ...Without - she’s not really thinking about if he’s trapped enough.
N: No, but she’s just thinking, like, “I’ll just - I’ll get him back, and I’ll be fine…”
R: ...Oh sure sure...
N: “...It will be ok,” Um...
R: ...But it’s also like...
N: ...She doesn’t say the word trapped but there’s this definite feeling of like…
R: ...Yeah.
N: ...“No I’ll go rescue him - it’s all good…”
R: ...Right, but if he...
N: “...I’ll bring him back again”...
R: ...but if he had his - if he had his sword and his bells to be able to send them to her, if he - if he had been fine he would have been able to get out and she just doesn’t see that at all.
N: Yeah, um, and then there's a - there’s a moment where she has to [pause], she has to talk to the perimeter guard, the army, um, and - her father had fashioned, huh?
R: Colonel Hoist?
N: Yes, Colonel Hoist. Uh.
R: I remember it because it sounds like “horse”.
N: [laughs] um, her father had fashioned wind flutes to keep the dead down and there's a lot of dead in that spot that - to be kept, to be kept down. Um, and Sabriel’s talking to the Col-o-nel, um.
R: Colonel [“ker-nel”].
N: To the Colonel, and - I learned that word by reading it, sorry, um.
R: We can later have a separate debate about the interesting etymology of that - and the split between how you say it and how it’s written. It’s - it’s great. Uh, but.
N: Ok, that’s fair. Uh, She had a - so she was talking to the Colonel and he desperately needed her to tell him when - would die, because they would. ‘Cause her father had crafted them, she was going to have to craft new ones, eventually.
(23:25)
N: And - she hedges her answer so much because, maybe, according to her, “If he’s dead, then they'll fall the next full moon. Or... if he’s really not, and it’s all ok, and I save him, and he comes back then maybe I won’t have to make any more and maybe you’ll all be fine,” and the first time around when she’s talking to the Colonel, she does not want to give a solid answer on that, because giving a real answer would be admitting that her father might not come back. And, and then we move on and then she finds Mogget at the house, and Mogget - straight up tells her in multiple, multiple statements that if he sent the bells and the sword, he’s not coming back. And also that Mogget is experienced enough and old enough and tied to the Abhorsens enough that he knows that her father’s not coming back and Sabriel’s like “Well, you’re wrong,” and “I don’t even know who you are anyway,” and “I’ll save him, you’ll see,” and Mogget’s just kinda like “Ok, sure buddy.”
R: Yeah.
N: Um. And even after that, she really just does not, [pause] she does not accept that he might be dead until she actually does find his body, go into death, find his - what is his trapped spirit, spirit that’s trapped, released him, and then he - he has to be the one to tell her “Hey, no I’m definitely dead, I can come back for a hundred hundred heartbeats, and when those heartbeats end I’m gone forever.”
R: Yeah.
N: And he forbids her from even trying to bring him back by any other means.
R: So like “I’m doing this on my own terms, and then i’ll die...
N: ...Yeah...
R: “...because my last lesson to you is that everything and anyone has - everyone has a time to die.”
N: Yeah.
R: Boy, what a way to drive home that lesson.
N: Oooh buddy.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, but she, you know - and I’m not, I’m not advocating for the seven stages of grief that are kind of outdated and subjective a little bit, but if you want to, you know.
R: But that - there are stages.
N: There are stages, but she gets firmly stuck in the denial stage for...
R: ...Oh totally...
N: ...the majority of this book.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um.
R: Whether or not you think of it as a stage, she is in...
N: ...She is in...
R: ...denial...
N: ...denial. Um, and *cannot* let go.
R: And the only person she believes that is dead is him.
N: Which...
R: ...Which...
N: ...thankfully in this book...
R: ...in this book...
N: ...is possible...
R: ...is possible...
N: ...yeah. It’s like “Oh good, well it’s good that - she can… Um, and then - I think there is a moment after that where she almost gives up because she couldn't save him, and that's not her fault, but that’s not what grief is about. [laughs] Um.
R: Right.
N: That’s not what the trauma of this is about. It doesn’t matter that it wasn't her fault that she couldn't save him. There was nothing to save, um. But she - she almost gives up and basically, starts to despair and says “Well, you know, I couldn’t even rescue my father, how - how could I rescue everybody? I couldn't even save the one person that mattered the most to me, so why should I even try?” And then Touchstone kind of pulls her out of that and basically said, “No, let’s do it together. We’ll make - we’ll make a better future and we’ll find things to care about, and then it will be ok.” And...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...that works, um, but she - she definitely didn’t just - she spent the whole book just not processing and not dealing and refusing to face it, and so then when it - when she was kind of confronted literally with her, with her father’s death, um, she almost just breaks down and is done.
(27:51)
N: And - it - there’s a very um, there's a very kind of odd, uh, comparison there with our second topic. Um, with her slow acclimation into feeling humans dying in real time because... she doesn't... like she - she experiences those - those human deaths, and over the course of the book like we - like we stated, um, she gets kind of acclimated to it and so it’s something she’s never not aware of, but it’s not crippling, but she spends the book denying a particular death, and so then when she finally confronts it, it’s too much. She - she spent no time acclimating, she spent no time adjusting, she spent no time processing. And it - it was overwhelming, at the end.
R: Yeah.
[long pause]
N: Any more thoughts on that one?
R: Uh, no? I - I think.
N: These books are pretty straight forward.
R: I really, yeah this one’s really straight forward. I like - I like how it’s handled. Um, because, uh, it’s like, you know, any way she could have reacted to this is totally fine, but, she - there’s a really good balance between - it feels like her refusing to process is purposeful. It’s more than just “We’ve got to get on with the story,” and it’s, “she needs there to be a story so that she doesn't have to deal with this.”
N: Yeah, very much so.
R: That this is so big, that it’s like she goes through all this stuff that at any other time would be pretty terrible, because it’s like “At the end of this, I’m gonna save my dad. At the end of this everything is gonna be fine.” And there’s this very, like, innocent feeling of “If I can just rescue him, then everything will go back to normal.” Now, she never - she never says it. She never says it with that naivety. But…
(30:16)
N: She hints it for sure.
R: Yeah. And it’s - ‘cause it kinda goes from “Oh I gotta rescue my dad” to “Oh no - oh no the whole kingdom - this is the whole kingdom? - the whole kingdom is like this?”
N: Yeah.
R: “These stones are broken.” And she goes from - ‘cause her father’s kind of the Macguffin so it’s like...
N: [laughs]
R: ...it goes from “Ive gotta go rescue the Macguffin” to “Oh no there’s a big saga, we’re gonna need more books.” Like.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: And - in this really good way. And if you’re gonna have a MacGuffin, like, having it as a distractor for building the background that makes the following books feel useful and necessary and, like, they build on something good, is nice. Uh, I like that’s drifting into wrap-up territory so let’s end this segment, but I think - I really like the role that her search for her father plays because she’s not “one track mind”, but she’s got this goal.
N: Yeah.
R: She - she has this very very clear goal and she’s slightly - like she adjusts her path but not her expectations until like the last third when she’s slowly inching towards accepting, “Ok, maybe you won’t be back and then it’s - it’s like “Maybe he will, no, oh he will - I’ll definitely save him. See look, there he is in a diamond, he’s gonna be fine.” And then, “He’s in a diamond of protection,” Like, “Oh yeah, he’ll be fine.” But.. yeah - I really like how him having to tell her “I’m not coming back.”
N: Yeah.
R: It just works so well. Sorry if that was a little - little rambly, I just - I.
N: It’s all right.
R: It’s a good MacGuffin.
N: It is.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (38:17).
R: So, for - for Touchstone; the betrayal by Rogir, that is backstory.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: And then the PTSD is somewhere between mild and moderate. I think it’s more on the mild side...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...in terms of how it is depicted. Again, this is - this is how it is depicted in this story not how bad it is implicitly or explicitly for the character.
N: Yes.
R: So with that, we don’t - it’s more like you get like the shape of it without - we’re not delving in, like he’s not talking about how it’s affecting him in his head, he’s not talking about it. It’s more Sabriel’s seeing, um, kind of what it does. And it feels a step removed...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...in a way that...
N: ...other people see him freeze. But we don’t get turmoil from his brain.
R: Right. We don’t - we don’t get a litany of thoughts, we don’t get - we don’t get something that, unless someone has a very low trigger threshold, we don’t have something that feels like it would be triggering, um, just from reading the description. It’s - it’s recognizable but mild. Or, it’s backstory.
N: Yeah.
(34:00)
N: Um, Sabriel experienced a human death.
R: Oh that’s moderate, building up to severe.
N: Yes.
R: So her father died - and just like that, I just keep coming back to that moment - that moment with, like, Astarael where...
N: ...That was very severe...
R: ...she’s...
N: ...definitely severe.
R: It - it’s so powerful, but it’s - it’s powerful but then it, yeah in terms of trauma depiction, it’s severe. Um, but just uh, it’s such - it’s such a good narrative moment.
N: Yes.
R: I would say that it is severe and detailed because it’s magical, it’s probably not going to be traumatic to read, probably.
N: Um...
R: You might get some feels.
N: Yeah.
R: Lots of feelings, um, I - I don’t know. I suppose, I haven’t had a parent die. If you’ve had a parent die, this passage is gonna be rough, it’s gonna be real rough.
N: I would argue if you’ve had a parent die the book is rough in general.
R: Yeah.
N: ‘Cause it starts with him...
R: ...You know what?...
N: ...possibly...
R: ...I’m gonna go ahead and say, given if - I’m gonna go ahead and say if you have - if you’ve been around - because I have - I have not been around a lot of death, I, at this point, still have never been to a funeral. I’m gonna go to the first memorial I’ve ever been to tomorrow.
N: Oof.
R: I don’t know that's gonna be, like I - I have never been to a funeral so I should not weigh in on whether this is traumatic for someone who has a lot more presence of death in their life ‘cause I - I just don’t. Depending on how I decided to count it, I could claim eight grandparents like, I just…[laughs]
N: Yeah. Um.
R: I mean you - you can too, but - but yeah, it’s - it’s very far away for me, um, so I’m gonna go ahead and say severe, and take care of yourselves.
N: Yeah.
R: But - but it’s a very, very powerful passage.
N: It’s very very well written.
R: Super well written. Um, so then, yeah leading, so her - her refusing to believe that her father has died I think, them - for her it’s, I think it’ll be - it’ll be pretty recognizable. It will have a lot of emotional echoes. The actual depeicting - the actual depiction I think is more mild. It’s mild but repetitious.
N: I, yeah, I’ve been kind of debating myself if the repetition kicks it up to moderate. But I - I don’t actually think it does, because the repetition is just her being optimistic that it will be fine.
R: Right, like if you’re...
N: ...It’s not...
R: ...you’re taking...
N: ...repetition....
R: ...what she’s saying, it’s...
N: ...that he’s dead, it’s repetition that she is like, “We’re gonna go get him!” Um, and that’s about it.
R: Yeah.
N: That’s about all that happens there.
R: Yeah, so it’s - it’s definitely mild. Yeah, like you’re saying, the repetition is, “Oh everything is gonna be fine,” so if you believe Sabriel, it doesn’t even feel like it’s gonna be traumatic and then you get a gut punch. So...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...it’s mild, until it is severe.
N: Yes.
(37:44)
N: So, moving on to “why this trauma”, um. With Touchstone, this is the setup for the whole book.
R: Right, it was totally integral.
N: Yeah. I don’t think it could have been replaced by anything else. There wouldn’t really have been, I - I don’t know of anything else that would have made sense.
R: It could have been replaced by something equivalently terrible, but not...
N: ...I mean not really because....
R: ...not in a way that would make the story better.
N: Well, I mean it wouldn’t make the story make sense.
R: Yeah.
N: Because the whole point of this - the whole story - the whole Kingdom story hinges on what Touchstone did and what it caused. And I don’t...
R: You could change - you could change how many people died, you could change how closely Touchstone was related to them.
N: Could you though?
R: But other than - they could have been brothers other than sisters, there’s just like-
N: I mean but that’s not changing the trauma, that’s just changing the characters.
R: That’s true. That’s true.
N: I don’t think you could change that at all. I - I don’t think there’s anything about the trauma that could have been replaced in a way that would have kept the story the way it was.
R: Yeah, so integral, it is not interchangeable, and it is very, very relevant.
N: Incredibly relevant. Um.
R: Um.
(38:59)
R: Her experiencing the moment of death, um, I don’t think it’s necessarily integral to the plot that the first time she felt it happened within the book...
N: Yeah, it doesn’t have to happen “on camera”, so to speak. Um, but I would argue that her being aware of those things is integral to the plot, and I think like, I think - I think it’s not even something that we can really argue of this one whether it’s interchangeable or - irrelevant, I think that it would...
R: ...it’s a book about...
N: ...either have to...
R: ...going into death.
N: Yeah, like I think...
R: ...It would be a totally different book if it did something else.
N: I think that - that seeing that moment, again like quote-unquote, “on film” um, might not have had to happen in the book, but you really can’t replace it with anything, and it’s definitely relevant. So it’s weird because technically we didn’t have to see it, but it had to happen.
R: So it’s not integral, but if you’re gonna have something you can’t really have a different thing.
N: I’m gonna say it’s integral because...
R: ...Ok...
N: ....we can, we can argue about the semantics of whether or not it had to be on or off camera, but it had to happen.
R: Right.
N: And...
R: ...If she’s gonna be in death, some time has to be the first time.
N: Right, exactly.
R: Could have been backstory, could have been depicted...
N: ...Right but that doesn’t change
R: ...But it had to have happened….
N: Yeah. That doesn’t change it, it happening, um.
R: Yeah.
(40:32)
R: The death of her father, he is the MacGuffin so it is very integral to the plot...
N: ...Well, more than that - more than that if he was still alive, the book…
R: …there would be no story...
N: ...wouldn't happen, there would be no story at all, um, and...
R: ...You could tell a different story in this location with these characters, but that's what the other four books are for.
N: [laughs] Yes. Um, and - and also I think her refusal to deal with it is also integral to the story, like, I think every part of that - she wouldn't have gone to the places that she did and made the decisions that she did if she had accepted it outright. She would have made…
R: ...And it’s…
N: ...a different decision.
R: It’s such a long trek too...
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...that, that - that optimism for 90% of the book is really important because you don't want 90% of the book to be impending doom and then the last 10% to be a kick in the face.
N: Yeah, no…
R: It, it would be a very different book...
N: ...you need that stuff in there, yes.
R: ‘Cause, yeah. ‘Cause the whole book is I know you think - I know you’re trying to be happy. All this other stuff is terrible, it’s just gradually building how much stuff is terrible, until that last final; “oh this isn’t ok either”.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, just speaking in general terms, like it’s - it’s important.
N: Yes.
R: That build up, yeah.
(42:01)
R: So whether the trauma was treated with care, I would say…
N: ...I would argue...
R: ...not as beautifully as “Golden Compass” like it’s not - it’s not callous.
N: [laughs] Ok, ok. No we’re not - we’re not comparing books. We’re looking at one book at a time.
R: Ok, not comparing books.
N: We’re not creating a rating system of, a line up, we’re not doing that.
R: Ok.
N: Um.
R: When we have a season, I want a line up.
N: We can do that. We can totally do a line up later, but not in the moment.
R: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ok.
N: Ok.
R: Alright.
N: So - talking about was - was the trauma treated with care, um, I think...
R: It’s not callous, but it’s also not really kid gloves either, it’s kinda like, it’s - it’s not going, it - it’s definitely going to bring up a lot of feelings if you’ve lost someone close or if you’ve lost a lot of people.
N: I would - I have a question with that though.
R: Yeah?
N: Because, I - so this is - this also something else I was kind of thinking of as we were recording the rest of this, um, I don’t really know of a way it could have been treated with more care? Because, other than literally…
R: ...That’s a good point…
N: ...lying about what was happening, it’s...
R: ...Other than having - Ok. So, let’s...
N: ...I think it actually was treated with care, it’s just that these specific three topics are, first off, not everyday experiences for most people. And I don’t mean - I don’t mean losing a parent, that’s not what I’m talking about, I mean, um, specifically the trauma that Touchstone undergoes is not possible...
R: ...Oh yes...
N: ...in real - in our non-magical world. Uh, experiencing a death, feeling it happen, because we’re not just talking seeing someone die, we’re talking about, like a “death sense”, that is not a thing that exists in the same way in our world, so it’s also not something that you can gloss over going “Eh, people know what this is.” You can’t do that - ‘cause it’s not gonna be there then. And...
R: ...That’s true...
N: ...and also like, other than, I would - I would argue that even her father’s death was treated with extreme care. We weren’t subject to her freaking out, we weren’t subject to a lot of built-up trauma ahead of time, and also the person she was losing did tell her she was losing him. She got...
R: ...right...
N: ...she got closure, and she got closure “on screen”. We saw her get closure. I would argue this was handled with extreme care, it’s just that the topics were ones where you can’t gloss over them without them not really making sense.
R: She gets closure, and then an explicit decision to continue to live despite everything that’s happened.
N: Yes. Um, so yeah I - I would argue - I would argue it was treated with extreme care, it’s just, it - it’s hard to treat something that doesn’t exist in our world with… care? Because eventually…
R: ...Right…
N: ...you’re too ambiguous, you’re too - you’re too um...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...you’re too ambiguous...
R: ...I would - I would say...
N: ...and you lose it.
R: I would say that in terms of it being treated with care, this is an instance where the magical analogue brings the trauma closer rather than further away.
N: That's fair, yeah.
R: And in that sense, I - I think it would have been a worse book if it had been treated with more care, but it would be possible to have done so. And I wouldn't want to read that book either.
N: [laughs] Oh yeah. You could - you could totally have written a book where you just didn’t actually talk about it, but that would not have been the same book. Um, so we’re gonna - we’re gonna rate this with “enough care”.
R: Yeah.
N: So far we have four categories to this one, where we kinda started out with two when we were first talking about this - this podcast. We have yes, no, not enough, and enough.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, and that’s fine.
(46:27)
N: Uh, point of view of our trauma. Touchstone, we actually, we basically, well we get him and Sabriel.
R: In - in this book, we have uh, a couple of different points of view. The main one is Sabriel, we get a few moment where it’s - where it’s focused, um, not in Touchstone’s head but following Touchstone, not in Mogget’s head, but following Mogget, and then we get some moments in the heads of one of the dead. Um, and in terms of feeling people die, we do get the perspective of someone dying, so in terms of that type of trauma being depicted in the book, I feel like it fits in that category, even though it is not the perspective of our main character.
N: Oh yeah...
R: ...I think that it...
N: ...absolutely...
R: … uh, that - that totally fits.
(47:14)
R: So as for the betrayal, the betrayal and stuff with Touchstone, we mostly get Sabriel’s perspective on Touchstone.
N: We do get Touchstone a couple of times, even when Sabriel’s awake though.
R: A little bit, not as much.
N: Well we get him in the moments that matter, I feel. Um, this is just my opinion, but we get it - we get him when he first wakes up.
R: Right.
N: Uh, we get him as they go to the reservoir.
R: Right...
N: ... And we get a moment as he...
R: ...but whenever he’s talking...
N: ...sees Rogir’s body.
R: That’s true, but whenever - wherever he’s talking about the betrayal and the backstory, it is not his perspective.
N: that’s - that’s true, but it is his words, and also...
R: ...Oh sure...
N: ...and I think that’s part of “the treating it with care'' thing where, we’re not getting things viscerally, we’re getting it told to us as a story and I think that that’s a, I don’t that that’s a problem. I think that that’s a necessary...
R: ...Oh no, not a problem...
N: ...distance? Um.
R: Yeah.
N: And - and speaking with the way we’ve handled point of view in other things too, um, we - we very much get the victims’ feelings in the aftermath.
R: Right.
N: We get Touchstone...
R: ...So...
N: ...and then...
R: ...looking...
N: ...and then, but then we also get the perspective of the people who care or are incredibly invested in what happened. Mogget, was - I don’t remember, did they say he was there? Oh no he was, he went with the Abhorsen at the time and he arrived too late... So yeah, so here our perspectives on Touchstone’s trauma are; Touchstone, the victim, Mogget, who witnessed it, and then Sabrie,l who is the person who cares about Touchstone as a person.
R: Right.
N: And also the person, alive, that he cares about in return.
R: Yeah.
N: So I - I do think this is a good - I think it’s a good spread actually, of - of people.
R: Oh yeah.
(49:23)
R: Um, and then for experiencing the moment of death, like I said we have - we have Sabriel experiencing someone die, and then we also have the perspective of the newly- and the long-ago-dead, and what that was like.
N: Yeah.
R: Um, so we get during - we get before, during and after, kind of, from a mix of perspectives in a pretty good way. I don’t think we have the perspective of anyone as they die, but we definitely have, as they die and then that dead creature who had been dead for a very long time, and given how - how integral the world after death is in these books, getting that creature’s perspective - and I say creature because, like, they don’t remember - they don’t remember what they were. They don’t remember - they don’t remember their past other than that they were human. So, this - this very old...
N: ...They remember they are…
R: ...dead person…
N: ...creatures now, even if they...
R: ...Right...
N: ...were human before, yeah. And - and...
R: ...But see...
N: ...and again, kind of bringing it back to the language that we used before, we basically just get the victim perspectives. We get Sabriel…
R: ...Yes…
N: ...who’s experiencing it, and we get people who were the victims of whatever it was that killed them.
R: Yeah.
N: But we’re not...
R: ...I would argue...
N: ...we’re not given like a necromancer feeling death or being happy about it in some way. Like, we don’t get perpetrators.
R: Oh that’s true. The only thing... I would think we get perpetrator, is we get attempted perpetrator, um with Thrall, but...
N: Yeah, but - but that he doesn’t succeed. [laughs]
R: This is true. Yeah. We get the perspective of someone dead trying to inflict more death, and they don’t manage to. But we do get their perspective as someone on both sides of this, in a really weird way that’s not possible in a lot of other stories.
N: Yes.
R: Um, so that’s nice.
N: Um. With Sabriel’s dad, we really just get Sabriel.
R: Yeah, we don’t get him. That’s part of the point.
N: I mean yeah. That - that makes sense, like. And - and it ties in nicely with - the story essentially.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, yeah - and the aftermath is only on Sabriel.
R: Yeah. I mean 90% of this book is Sabriel’s perspective. And then...
N: Yeah, and this is...
R: ...being that this is…
N: ...intrinsically tied with her and nobody else.
R: Yeah, dipping into other places to enrich the story, but not - not diverting for major sections. Other books have dual narrators, other books in this series have dual narrators, this... really I wouldn’t class as one of them.
N: Right. It also makes sense that it’s the first book and the one with...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...the smallest cast of characters.
R: Yes. Oh definitely.
N: Yeah.
(52:33)
R: Alright, so moving onto next thing; aspiring writer tip. What do you have for this one?
N: Aspiring writer tip. Don’t be afraid to create something for your book’s world. Um we had - we had some of this with our... the other series that we did, but, it...
R: ...Like don’t be afraid to make something...
N: ...feels...
R: ...dark?
N: No, no.
R: What?
N: Um, something - so both of the books that we - both of the series that we’ve covered so far, the author has created something intrinsic about the - the world the story exists in. Um, for the - for “His Dark Materials” they created the Daemons, and also the branching worlds that are on similar timelines but not - not the same at all. Um, and the Daemons especially, felt very very real in the story’s world.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, and then in here, in - in this series, um, they’ve created death and the Old kingdom, and charter magic, and free magic, and they’re all connected and they’re all related, but none of them feel, like - like they don’t exist in our real world, but none of them are - none of them feel off, or wrong, or separate, or like a, the author just needed something and grabbed it from somewhere, like they all make sense. They all make sense...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...The characters treat them as they make sense, and they’re - they’re not extra.
R: And an interesting thing I would say with all that, there are explicit characters who don’t...
N: ...Don’t believe...
R: ...more so in the later books, but there are characters who don’t treat it seriously...
N: ...Oh yeah!...
R: ...and don’t think it makes sense because they’re from that part of the world. They’re not from...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...the Old Kingdom, they don’t work at the border...
N: Mmhmm, and that doesn’t detract from the...
R: ...In this book...
N: ...story at all. If - if anything...
R: ...Right...
N: ...it makes it feel more realistic.
R: Right, and like - I mean, and the... we can talk about this more in the later books ‘cause it’s definitely more of a thing in the later books, in this book we mostly hear about people who aren’t up on this.
N: Yeah, but I would - I would say, as an aspiring writer tip like, don’t be afraid to create something in the world that either doesn't make sense, or doesn’t run the way ours does. That - don’t let that, don’t let it - don’t let it be unrealistic mess you up. If you like it...
R: ...Make rules...
N: ...and you can...
R: ...make cool rules and follow them...
N: ...make it make sense to your characters? Go for it.
R: Make rules, and then follow them.
N: Yeah.
R: No gratuitous deus ex machina’s please.
N: [laughs] Yeah.
R: They look cool in movies, but they make spending the rest...
N: ...they make reading very hard.
R: They make reading very hard. ‘Cause I can remember 200 pages ago when something happened that means that there’s no way this you’re doing at the end can happen.
N: [laughs]
R: Um, but yeah. Build - build cool rules and then follow them. Books that I really hope we can cover in this podcast are, ah, there’s an author that’s super - I keep being “like there’s an author who’s super good at making cool rules and then following them”, eventually we’ll get there. Eventually we’ll read these books...
N: ...Put them on the list...
R: ...and then you will know.
N: We have a list.
R: Oh I did.
N: Ok.
R: I did. That’s on the list. I already told you who it is.
N: Oh! Ok.
R: I just - I just feel like I’m gonna keep...
N: ...you just want to get there
R: ...eventually, eventually we’re gonna cover this author. Um, so exciting. It’s my favorite author. Anyway, um, build cool rules and then follow them. This system with death is a really, really cool set of rules, that’s got enough to get this story going and enough room to play that you can flush it out over the next several books, and that’s what he does.
N: Yep.
R: Uh, it’s very exciting.
N: It’s very very…
R: Uh, favorite non-traumatic...
N: ...You can tell that he’s thought it out. Oh, and I - I would also put in with that whole - follow, follow...make cool rules and follow them, plan out all of your rules, if this is the kind of writer you are, you like to plan things out. Plan out all of your rules, and then don’t give us all of them immediately. Like you don’t have to...
R: ...Oh yeah, don’t...
N: ...You don’t have to like, spill everything all at the beginning.
R: Oh don’t tell us all the rules.
N: No, no.
R: Don’t tell us all the rules.
N: We can make that...
R: ...Find out...
N: ...we can even make that an aspiring writer tip for our next book actually.
R: We’ll just save this one, we’ll just say it in this one - if you’re gonna make cool rules, don’t tell us all of them, because figuring out what the cool rules are is part of the fun of reading and then being right about the cool rules is even better, like have rules, be consistent. Uh...
N: Have fun, make something you like.
R: Yeah.
N: Um.
R: And then have characters react naturally given that those are the rules.
N: Favorite non-traumatic...
R: ...Or unnaturally if they refuse to accept that those are the rules, and that will - [nervous laugh] that’s gonna happen later in this series...
(57:55)
N: Um, favorite non-traumatic...
R: ...so much.
N: ...thing, in this book. What do you think?
R: Uh, I was hoping you could go first.
N: Oh I can go first.
R: Ok.
N: Um, I really like the bells. I just like...
R: ...Yeah...
N: ...I just like characters, I like - I like the fact that the bells have personalities...
R: ...Mmhmm...
N: ...and that is totally something that will get fleshed out later, but I like that the bells have personalities. [laughs]
R: Yeah.
N: And I like that they - they want to sound on their own accord and they have their own agenda, and it - it entertains me a lot. Um, so much so, and I actually told Robin about this when we were just talking about the book before, I have actually made a DnD character before, and I want to play her more, that is loosely based off of this, um, and she is a combo-class sorcerer/bard, and she has, her weapons of choice are bells.
R: Nice.
N: And eventually, if I ever play her enough to level her up enough, I want her to take something that makes her more of a necromancer.
R: Mmhmm.
N: But I - I like that the bells have personalities.
R: Oh, um. Think about doing Cleric instead of sorcerer.
N: Egh. Gross.
R: Uh, you don’t want to memorize spells?
N: I - I, there’s other reasons I chose sorcerer, I can tell you about this later.
R: Ok, ok. Um, favorite non-traumatic thing, um, I, [sighs] I liked all the creepy stuff.
N: [laughs] See you’re having the problem - I mean I liked all the creepy stuff too, this book just has something that isn't creepy that I also liked, [mumbles].
R: Oh, oh that’s what it was; the sendings, the Charter Sendings. The Charter Sendings who are old and stubborn and - scrub Sabriel and give her a bath because they know best and she has to have a bath. And, they give - they give Mogget, uh.. plain linen and cheap plates, and they give Sabriel...
N: [laughs]
R: ...an awesome table cloth and cool plates or something and, yeah. And then they all like...
N: ...and Mogget had to eat out of the kitchen when...
R: ...treat her and stuff and like...
N: …an Aborsen’s not in the house...
R: ...We should say that the Charter - the Charter S..., yeah the Charter Sendings are like magic servants, and they’re...
N: ..bespoke-like servants...
R: ...right. They’re not, hmm.
N: They’re not people...
R: ...Something I would like to have...
N: ...they’re not sentient, they have been imbued with the free will to do their specific task.
R: Mmhmm...
N: ...and they literally...
R: ...Well, I...
N: ...can’t even go too far away from their, their conjuring marks. They’re stuck.
R: I’ve been listening to a podcast that has me thinking - interesting things about sentience and personhood, and I wanna finish all five books and then maybe have a debate with you about whether they're sentient and whether they’re people, um.
N: Ok.
R: But, that’s - that’s totally separate, you don’t have to keep this line in the podcast anyway.
N: Ok.
R: But I just - I, when - when we’ve finished this, when we’ve seen what’s in all five books, um, since I’ve been listening to “Philosophers in Space”, I want to have a debate about whether they’re actually sentient and whether we should treat them as though they’re sentient and have personhood, despite the fact that they have all been made mute, because I do not think that being unable to speak should be disqualifying.
N: Oh that has nothing to do with my logic for this.
R: Oh, oh no. But I, I wanna get through all five and then see how I feel about it, because I definitely have some changed assumptions...
N: ...Oh ok...
R: ...from reading this. Because they develop personalities over time, which feels like...
N: ...Um, they - they...
R: ...which feels....
N: ...don’t though?
R: They - they do.
N: I don’t think so.
R: They do. They - it, ok. I gotta reread the other ones, but it - it feels like it’s saying they do. Anyway, so, my favorite thing; the Charter Sendings. And, they, like… Yeah, I like - I like how they act like they know best and they, uh, swear fealty, not that fealty is a thing to aspire to, but like it’s a cool moment.
N: They acknowledge the passing of one master to another. Yeah.
R: Yeah.
Outro: Begins at (1:02:44).
R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.
N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
N: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.
R: You can leave us an iTunes review, this helps people to find the show.
N: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.
R: Thanks for listening, the next episode is already in your feed.