N: Hey everybody, welcome to Books that Burn. I am Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin

N: And today we are talking about - so today is kind of a deviation from our standard set up. Um, this series, um, has five books, but two of them are really just halves of the same story, specifically “Lirael” and “Abhorsen”. They have essentially all the same characters, they're one continuous plotline, and within each character there isn’t like a lot of variation or change from one book to the other, and so it was very difficult for us to kind of separate them out into two stories, and also the two books kind of together have really two main characters. And so, this week and next week, or this episode and next episode, um, we’re gonna be talking about both books but from the perspective of each of our two main characters. So - so this episode we’re starting with Lirael, and we’re gonna kind of get her two points of trauma, um, and then next episode we’ll talk about Sam.

R: We’ve got Lirael who is um, ok we - we have Lirael who’s our main character, and then we have Sam and Ellimere who are Touchstone and Sabriel’s children, we also have Touchstone and Sabriel. We have the disreputable Dog, we have Mogget making a repeat appearance, we have the Clayr and a lot more detail on them this time, then we have a new baddy name Orannis. We have Sam’s friend Nick, Sam is from Ancelstierre. We have the Southernling refugees, they are from somewhere not in Ancelstierre, but on the Ancelstierren side of the wall, it’s just - they’re from a different country. Um, and then we have Hedge, and we have Chlorr of the mask. Hedge and Chlorr are both necromancers. Alright.

N: Ok.

R: Our minor character spotlight. You ready for this?

N: [laughs] So, our minor character - go ahead. Our minor character spotlight.

R: Oh ok. I didn’t know if I was going to keep monologuing, so...

N: ...You just introduce him and then we’ll...

R: Ok. Alright, so our minor character spotlight - our minor character is Mr. Cochrane, Sam’s Cricket - uh, coach.

N: Yeah. So he’s only really in...

R: ...all of my knowledge - all of my knowledge of Cricket is from these books, by the way.

N: [laughs], um, [laughs].

R: [laughs] For the record.

N: So, uh, full disclosure, all of my knowledge of Cricket is from a combination of this book and then a monster factory episode or two episodes by the Macleroy brothers.

R: Yay!

N: Where they play a video game, based off of this game.

R: One point, this is not - not an episode about Cricket.

N: Yeah, no, we are not discussing the sport here in any shape or form. But, Mr. Cochrane is Sam’s coach. Um, so, they go on a bus, they are trying to go back to school.

R: So they won the game

N: ...oh yeah….

R: ...so they won this emotional game...

N: ...they won the game.

R: This emotional high...

N: ...They’re like “Yeah, we did it!”

R: Yeah...

N: ...And then...

R: ...I think it’s like the last game of the season too.

N: Oh yeah, it’s the last game….

R: ...so it’s like a big deal...

N: ...of Sam’s school career, and he’s like “Yes! We did it!” and it’s great.

R: Yeah.

N: And then, they get attacked, well, their bus driver is bribed and takes them close to the wall, and then they are attacked by Dead Hands.

R: Yeah, well the bus breaks down because they got close to the wall, the bus driver ditches.

N: Yeah.

R: And then the soldiers show up, because they’re not supposed to be near the wall.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And poor Mr. Cochrane, because he’s just like “Nah, I’m in charge. You can’t order me around. These are my kids, and I’m in charge of them”. And then the perimeter soldier says “Get them going now sir, or I’ll shoot you where you stand”, and Mr. Cochrane’s day goes down from there. [laughs]

N: [laughs] Very rapidly.

R: [sighs] I’m just gonna run through kinda what happens to him, because it’s kinda this like, we talk about things in terms of order of escalation, and this story is just like - it’s just continually getting worse and worse, and worse.

N: It just kind of ramps up for him in about what, 20 pages or less.

R: Yeah, yeah uh 30 pages - 19 pages, 19 pages. Yeah, 191 to 220, in case you want to read this lovely little section on what happens to Mr. Cochrane for yourself. Um, so, they’re, so first they have to start walking away from the - away the perimeter, away from the wall, uh, the soldier uh, is like the boys are kinda like going along with it, and in this instance they are all boys.

N: Yeah.

R: They’re going along with it, um.

N: Sam is the only one that knows that anything is - is going on, at all.

R: Oh yeah, so Sam is like...

N: ...Everybody else is like “Oh the bus broke down, this is a fun adventure, ooh soldiers, ooh guns.”

(6:04)

R: “Oh we - we have to carry our cricket bats and stumps, yay. I mean we had to carry our gear anyway. Ok, what.” And then, Sam starts sensing dead things, and the perimeter soldier has the Charter Mark, and so I don’t know if he senses it or just believes Sam...

N: ...No, I think he believes Sam...

R: ...knows about the perimeter. Yeah...

N: ...Cause he knows Sam’s mom is the Abhorsen, but.

R: Yeah, so the soldier can’t sense it but...

N: ...Right...

R: ....Sam can and the soldier is like “Get out of here”.

N: And there’s this moment where like, the perimeter guard and Sam are taking everything deadly seriously, but Mr. ? is like “Look, first the army is taking away my authority over my kids and what we’re doing, and then my own student is giving the army orders. This isn’t ok, and I hate this.

R: “This is not how hierarchy works.”

N: Yeah, like “I am in charge, and you are my pupil and why are you giving orders to the people that took away my power.” Like there is this whole almost power struggle, but that power struggle doesn’t ever really happen.

R: Because the soldier has decided...

N: ...Or it happened very quickly. Or, no, no no, not even because of that. Just because a zombie shows up. A dead hand shows up, and it’s like “Oh wait, I don’t care as much about being in charge anymore, because I’m terrified.”

R: Yeah, so they are attacked by the dead and - Sam is like “Hey, so when they get close, hammer cricket stumps through their arms and legs,” I still don’t know what a cricket stump is, other than that this sport has spikes in it and that’s very convenient. Um so they hammer cricket stumps through their arms and legs, or Sam tells them “Do that if you need to, I’m going to go do magic now.” Uh, and then he goes into Death. [laughs] So.

N: We’re gonna kind of jump past, Sam has his whole thing in Death…

R: ...Yeah, yeah yeah…

N: ...but Mr. Cochrane...

R: …yeah, just talk about Cochrane...

N: Yeah. Um, so this whole time he’s losing more and more of his - his authority and his power.

R: And his sense of reality.

N: And his sense of - yeah. Everything that he knows and is solid in life, is being slowly stripped away. His sense of purpose in the moment, his sense of what is going on and who is where and what, and then the dead come back to life and attack him.

R: Yeah.

N: And, everything in his world is just flipped.

R: And then when they have to charge the dead, um, they have to run at them and attack them, and try and kill them and actually do the thing that Sam said to do, before he ran off. We have, uh, Cochrane - he’s like “Do this” and “Cochrane merely nodded dumbly staring at the approaching Dead Hands”, sorry I like - I love all these quotes.

N: They’re so good.

R: And then, I - I was noticing it again in this reread, I hadn’t really paid much attention to it before looking at this for this book, we have a description that Cochrane - when they threw the charge, Cochrane runs down the hill, perpendicular to everyone else...

N: [laughs] ...Oh yeah!

R: ...and I think that means...

N: ...He just leaves..

R: ...away from the dead, but it doesn’t quite say that.

N: Yeah.

R: ‘Cause it’s...

N: ...Well the dead are just surrounding them at this point, so it’s like...

R: ...he’s just charging them alone...

N: ...he probably didn’t succeed, but he definitely tried to just...

R: ...He tried to lead properly...

N: ...he tried to just run away.

R: Yeah. And then he’s found wandering in the woods, I believe it’s - let me get to the page, I believe it’s days later?

N: Yeah.

R: I’m sorry if I sound so glib, it’s just these books are so dark, that this is like a weirdly comedic thing from a, this is not our life perspective. Um, so we have…

(9:47)

N: Well, and also it’s kind of a coping method perspective, we both tend to kind of go there but...

R: ...Yeah, so...

N: ...this is a really - this is a really dark tragic thing.

R: So, Cocrine, so he runs down the hill...

N: ...but it is really funny that he’s just kind of like, “Oh no! Alright kids, I was in charge, and I hated giving that up, but bye!”

R: Well he doesn’t even say anything, he just runs down the hill...

N: …he’s just like, “Just kidding...

R: ...in the wrong direction…

N: ...I don’t want to fight the zombies. I will see you later.” And he just... leaves.

R: So then we have, uh, Nick’s - next time we hear what happened to him is in Nick’s letter where it’s just like half a paragraph. It - it is half a paragraph in Nick’s letter. Um, he - Nick is saying “Oh, you know, being at my school won’t be the same without you, or our fellow student who died,” and then we have “or even Cochrane, they found him five miles away the next morning apparently, gibbering and frothing, and I expect he’s locked up in Smithwood’s special hospital by now, should have been done years ago of course.” So, we don’t know for sure that he’s locked up in the mental hospital, that is probably the only good thing... in here. But, given that the author decided to put that in, I think we can safely assume that that is probably what happened to him. So, for the rest of this discussion we are going to assume that the end point for Mr. Cochrane is that he’s put into a mental institution.

N: And also for the sake of, I guess benefit of the doubt for the author, because we don’t actually know, we’re going to assume that that’s because, well not even benefit of the doubt, because this author very clearly sets up that people on, um, both...

R: ...Ancelstierre...

N:...sides of the wall, yeah, people - people in Ancelstierre um, they know that - that magic across the wall is a thing.

R: Well, no, it depends. People within about -

N: Hold on, hold on.

R: Mmhmm.

N: In this area, in this zone by the wall...

R: ...Ok…

N: ...they do, and so it is - it is far more likely that the implication there is not someone said the word zombie and got locked away, and more that he literally just can’t handle reality anymore.

R: Yeah. Well also, Sam’s school is far enough away from the wall that the wind has to be blowing just right for him to maybe feel any magic...

N: ...But they still know...

R: ...when any of the Charter hit the school...

N: ...they still know.

R: Yeah, but if Mr. Cochrane goes to a school that at that - very far away, and then maybe he doesn’t like, live near it, I’m just saying that he could easily like, be from some other part of the country, not have worried about the weirdness going on 30 miles away.

(12:34)

N: Ohhh, oh - oh - oh, I thought you…

R: ...Right, I’m saying…

N: ...were saying like the place that found him - yeah, no that makes sense.

R: No, I’m saying that there’s no reason for Mr. Cochrane to have ever thought about magic a day in his life, like even...

N: ...Yeah [laughs]...

R: ...even with Nick, like, referring to Sam’s Charter Mark as like a way to know that someone is of your particular religion.

N: [laughs]

R: Like...

N: ...That made me laugh very hard.

R: Yeah. So there is no reason to think that Mr. Cochrane had - you know - because like the school wasn’t like, “Oh, Sam’s a prince,” he was just like a rich kid at the school probably from Mr. Cochrane’s perspective, so his whole world is just turned upside down, and he just - he - he can’t - he can’t handle it, um. And this would have been a lot to handle, we’re not saying...

N: ...Oh no. We’re not saying like...

R: ...anything about him for not being able to handle it.

N: No...

R: ...But...

N: ...no, no, no, no, no...

R: ...like - but this is just...

N: ...not at all. It’s - it’s a lot - it’s a lot- it’s a lot and it really, honestly, kind of breaks him and his sense of reality.

R: Yeah.

N: And, that’s - that’s really what he goes through. And this is not something that happens slowly over time.

R: No, it’s in 19 pages...

N: ...This whole scene...

R: …and then a 1 page follow up.

N: Yeah, like this, this whole scene was probably less than an hour, honestly.

R: Oh yeah

N: There’s a lot of...

R: ...in his life...

N: ...detailed description, but like, this is not a long drawn out battle or anything, like this was over and done very quickly with - there were multiple waves of it, but the event was not this - very long passage of time at all. Um.

R: Yeah.

N: And so his entire world kind of shattered, and his whole sense of self and sense of reality was kind of shattered in probably less than an hour.

R: Yeah.

N: And that’s - that’s too much - too much for him to handle.

N: Alright, so in this week's episode, we are talking about Lirael specifically, both the book and the character, and then a little bit in the book “Abhorsen”, but, you know, mostly “Lirael”, so, uh, first thing that we’re talking about with Lirael is, her - there’s a moment in - in this book where she looks back into the past and looks back to see um, when her mom and dad met and - and when - when she was conceived essentially.

R: Yeah. She makes the choice to not continue the vision until the actual...

N: ...Oh yeah, no...

R: ...act...

N: ...she doesn’t like actually watch them do anything, but she sees them talking, and meeting and hears kind of who they are to each other, and this is pretty traumatic for her because…

R: ...So to discuss this...

N: ...it’s not what she was expecting...

R: ...to properly - to properly get the counterpoint I wanna first talk about like, kind of what she thought it was gonna be...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...and then what it turned out to be, because I think that - that shift is pretty important, and uh, it was - it was funny when we were like, “What - what even is there, what is it that she thought was missing,” and I’m like, “Romantic? She thought it would be more romantic than it was,” and I’m like “Oh yeah..,”

N: Romance is not my - not my thing.

R: Yeah. Uh, so, um, alright. So she - she never - first of all she thought of them as like “her parents”, like they were some sort of a unit, like they had a relationship, you know, the kind of thing you might think went into someone’s conception was hopefully the people involved caring about and liking each other, and, uh, so, she - like her mantra, and we’re gonna talk about uh, the first... focusing on the beginning of it, but her - her mantra, every day is uh, “No mother, no father, no Sight.” And, no Sight, we’re gonna leave behind for our next section, but on the “No mother, no father,” like this question is like two parts of a thing she says to herself...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...a lot, because…

N: …like she wakes up and says this and then goes about her day.

R: Yeah, and it sounds like she might go - she might say it to herself more often but thankfully the author did not pile that upon us, because “No mother, no father, no Sight,” every three pages...

N: ...that’s a lot…

(17:35)

R: ...would have been pretty rough. Um, uh, says you know it - “it was like worrying a toothache with her tongue. It hurt but she couldn’t leave it alone. The wound was part of her now.” So part of her conception of herself...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...is that she does not have parents, and she lists them, like, separately, like “No mother, no father,” because many of the Clayr don’t know who the - like their fathers are recorded but they don’t play an active part in their lives in any way...

N: ...Mmymm...

R: ...they don’t live at the glacier, so it would have been perfectly normal for her to have no - for her to have mother and absent father, but, not knowing the parentage at all, not having that sense of identity and then also not having her mother there, and having her just died when Lirael - oh yeah she died when Lirael was four, and they found out via like a messenger.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah, like some - some message that was sent saying that she had died. [sighs] Um, so, she doesnt’ - she knows who her mother is and that she died but not why she just dropped Lirael off at the glacier and then left again. Um, is there anything else you wanted to say with this set up?

N: Uh...

R: ‘Cause I’m fine mainly being the one to talk about this section because for me...

N: ...no...

R: ...like I really felt like the set up and then the turn, and I don’t know if you felt that as much.

N: I mean it really is a kind of a gut punch.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, she - she very much - like there - well there’s this expectation, there’s this thought that like - you know, well - and...

R: …they don’t have the parents, but at least they had this story __.

N: Right. I didn’t have them but at least they had each other.

R: Mmhmm.

N: It’s kind of one of those, um - and then she - she finds out that actually, um, her parents had eachother for literally like a few hours.

R: yeah.

N: Her mom had a vision that she was going to exist, and went out and found the father.

R: Yeah.

N: And - that was it, and she was done.

R: And it is less romantic than I slept with this person because the act told me to.

N: Yeah. It’s less - it was less [laughs] it was like you need to…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...exist, therefore, um.

R: Yeah.

(20:09)

N: And - and that was - that was - that was a lot, and it really - it really - it hit really hard to kind of the only piece of an identity really that she had clung to at all.

R: mmhmm.

N: Um, and fortunately by this point in the book, um, she had more things to kind of hold onto.

R: Yeah.

N: But imagine if - if she had gotten this revelation, or seen this vision...

R: ...when that was still her mantra...

N: ...when she had nothing else. That would have been it.

R: Yeah, [sighs]. Yeah. Uh, but yeah. So, she spends her whole life thinking and like trying to figure out how like her parents got together, and then it turns out that not only - yeah not only was it just one night, but it was - her - her mother traveling - the way it was put was you know was “Sleep with someone old enough to be my father.” That’s paraphrasing, I haven't looked up the exact quote. And so we - we should mention at this point Lirael is Sabriel’s half sister, and the person that her mother slept with was Sabriel’s father. Like, in the year that he died.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Possibly in the month that he died. But definitely within the year, by it happening in this way, Lirael doesn’t - she doesn't get her parents’ story, and when she does, it is disappointing, and she also - alright, this is going lead a little bit into the next thing, so I’ll - I’ll leave it for our next topic...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...but I do want to pick up the thread of her - her feeling alone while surrounded by family...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and then not knowing about the family that could actually relate to her until much later. I do want to pick up that thread, but we can go ahead and move on to the next section.

N: So piggybacking off of our last topic, ‘cause these two are pretty entwined. Um, so Lirael really, really, REALLY, really, really just felt alone and abandoned and ostracized, and - and the important thing here is that this was not - or an important thing I think, is that this was not done to her deliberately, um.

R: Mmhmm.

N: She was very much, even in like uh, when she’s living with the Clayr, who are quite literally all her family...

R: ...Right...

N: ...to some - relativistic degree or another...

R: ...I mean she even meets Filris...

N: ...they are all cousins

R: ...whose her great-grandmother or something

N: Yeah, like they’re - they’re literally - and they’re - they’re all family. They’re family the same way that like the King and the Abhorsen and the - the Clayr - Clayr are all related at some level, but it’s not - it’s not to the point of incest.

R:Right.

N: Um, but it is very much a giant, hundred thousand clan, group, that are all a family, giant clan, group. Um, and - the Clayr don’t even really realize or understand that she doesn’t feel like she’s a part of them because to her - or to them, she is. She’s just, part of the family. She’s part of the family who’s still a child, or she’s part of the family who just hasn’t received their Sight yet, or she’s part of the family who just works in the library at some point, or she’s part of the - just one of the other kids running around, or - like she’s - they think that they’ve included her, but what they don’t understand is that the one defining characteristic of the Clayr - above all else, is the Sight, and she doesn’t have it. And she...

R: ...Even the passage into adulthood...

N: ...it’s like she’s separate....

R: ...is organized around the Sight.

N: Yeah.

R: And so they’re like, “We don’t care about age...

N: ...Right...

R: ...We care about when you get the Sight,” and she’s like…

N: ...Right...

R: … “You don’t care about my age, you don’t care that I still don’t have the Sight?”

N: Yeah, yeah. And then it doesn't help that we are explicitly told - so the Clayr have a very um, distinctive look and so do the Abhorsens. The Clayr are brown skinned with I think...

R: ...Gold hair...

N: ...blue eyes? And blond hair.

R: Definitely blond hair.

N: I think - I think the eyes...

R: …It might have been light eyes, like...

N: … might have been light eyes, yeah...

R: ...lots of blue...

N: ...like blue, gray, green...

R: ...yeah, like blue, gray, green...

N: ...um...

R: ...that sort of a thing.

N: But the Abhorsens are pale, almost - like almost deathly pale, ha ha, um...

R: ...The - they’re pale…

N: skinned…

R: ..and then they’re more pale...

N: ...and then black hair...

R: … moreso unto death...

N: ...they’re black haired and dark brown eyes. So, would you think like coloration wise, they - that is a striking opposite. And, probably because of her, kind of Abhorsen inheritance, as far as like the Charters are concerned, Lirael does not look like a Clayr, she looks like an Abhorsen. But when she’s...

R: ...but no one ever...

N: ...a kid...

R: ...says to her - no one ever says to her...

N: ...no...

R: … “Hey, you look like this other part of our family.”

(25:22)

N: No, no. Well, and the Clayr don’t even know that. They don’t even know that that’s part of her heritage, for most - for a good - good chunk of the beginning of this book...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...so she’s just this deathly pale, black haired, dark eyed child, in a sea of dark brown skin, blond hair, light eyes, family.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And so, there’s this very striking like, she looks at herself, figuratively and literally and says, “I am not part of them, and they don’t care.”

R: Yeah.

N: And - and so there’s - and so the - bringing this to kind of our topic here, she actually gets, for a good - good portion of - of her childhood, a good five, at least years, and we kind of get the impression, even from like the beginning of the book when she’s fourteen, this is not - this is not the beginning of this. Um, it’s just the first time when we see it in her, when she is - she is very definitely suicidal.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, in the book itself she has at least explicitly um, told suicide attempt, um. She doesn't get as far as like, carrying anything out. She was planning, and going, and it was going to happen. Um, and - and there’s just this - the thing that really - that really drives her to it is that - that loneliness, that separation, that feeling of like, “I can’t even be a real Clayr, I can’t even be a proper Clayr, and that’s all I have. That’s all I am, and if I can’t even be this thing that I am, then I might as well stop existing...

R: ...Oh, so...

N: ...It isn’t even worth it anymore.”

R: ...I found the age gap, so - so she’d have to sit at a table with girls that are three or even four years younger. So basically, it sounds like either nine or ten is the most common age to get the Sight…

N: ...Yeah. So she was fourteen...

R: ...so she was ten, with some people at nine...

N: ...She’s fourteen surrounded by nine year olds, in the same clothing as them, eating the same food, following their rules, watching the grown ups that are eleven and twelve, over off with everybody else...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...like...

R: ...And being a teen...

N: ...oof...

R: ...stuck at the kids table, is a very weird feeling, even without all the rest of that other baggage.

N: Yeah, yeah.

R: But she has that on like a massive, daily scale, and not like just once a year at holidays or something.

N: Right, it - it - it is so bad that she, um - we see like even in the beginning in the book, there’s - there’s examples of her - and - and it’s narrated this way too, it’s not just shown, it’s told as well, um, she doesn't even eat with family. She goes down and eats with the people that come to visit.

R: Oh yeah.

N: Because then, they won’t look at her and see that she’s different, because everyone’s different. Um, and she - she...

R: ...Oh...

N: ...eats in her room…

R: ...I’ve…

N: ...instead of with...

R: ...I - I feel like since...

N: ...the group...

R: ...we’ve brought that up…

N: ...It’s a lot…

R: ...it is important to discuss how on this day, this fourteenth birthday day, where she goes down and eats with visitors, a visitor offers to show her around...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...because he thinks that it’s her first time at the glacier, and asks if her parents trade there a lot.

N: Yep. Because she is a little child, and he also doesn’t think of her as a Clayr, because she doesn’t look like it.

R: Well, I mean she’s fourteen, so...

N: ...She’s a child...

R: ...and we don’t know...

N: ...and doesn’t look...

R: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah...

N: ...like a Clayr.

R: This is true.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: Um. But, yeah, she - she gets to the point of - of - of suicide, um.

R: Yeah.

N: And then...

R: … It’s, ah...

N: ...after - after that, so she - it does - it does kind of, I don’t know, get better, a little bit.

R: Yeah.

N: After that she gets a job in the library, ah, which gives her a sense of purpose and of doing something which she desperately needed. Um, she also makes a friend, the Disreputable Dog.

R: Literally makes.

N: Literally makes, she creates the Dog's physical form, but then also the Dog is not a Charter sending or anything like that. The Dog is a real, active, living creature, living being.

(29:38)

R: That’s an ontologically separate entity, way older than her that just happened to come in at - and happened at the sending that she made, or attempted to make.

N: Yeah, that’s fair. Um, but she - but she has a friend now.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, and she talks to the Dog all the time, it’s her constant companion. And, um, there’s a very stark difference in the book, and it’s outlined very, very explicitly, multiple times. She is so well known for not ever speaking ever, to another Clayr, because she just doesn't. She just doesn’t want to talk to them, and everything in their lives and everything they want to talk about, has to do with the Sight, and she doesn't have it. And so she just doesn't talk to them. Um, and there’s even - there’s even things like, uh, there’s a - a joke, you know, kind of christmas present, but it was a good present for her, where they actually gave her, or I’m sorry not christmas, for her birthday. One year they give her a slate, like a chalkboard, and some chalk to write on.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, so that she didn’t have to talk, which honestly, is kind of a thoughtful present.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, like the Clayr definitely include her and want her to be included and care about her and - and she - she has no idea. Um, and - but she - she makes this friend, she has this sense of purpose, she kind of discovers and starts learning more about Charter magic and that gives her a sense of something to do and something to be, um, and she’s good at it, sot it’s some - it’s not something that she looks at and goes, “Well, I’m inadequate at this also,” like no it’s - it’s something that she’s better at than a lot of the Clayr and...

R: ...But - but there’s a feeling of being really good at the wrong thing.

N: Oh yeah. But it’s - but it’s not that she’s bad at all of the things she’s tried, it’s - it -it could have gone that direction too..

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...If she wasn’t - if she wasn’t good at this. But she - she found those things that she’s good at and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...but then through - even through all of that, um, in the book they very specficially mention the fact that, “Oh, you know, I haven’t even thought about suicide in a couple months now, or a couple of years. Or this is getting less frequent,” like, it didn’t go away.

(31:58)

R: Yeah. and I think...

N: ...It’s just not...

R: ...I don’t know if we...

N: ...It’s just not every...

R: ...specifically...

N: ...she has anymore.

R: I don't know if we specifically like, talked about why we’re doing all this framing. The reason why we’re doing all this framing is because she has consistent suicidal ideation to the point where when she was fourteen, after that visitor um, thinks that she is isn’t even a Clayr, she goes up to - she goes up onto the ice on this outside place and, um, wants to kill herself, and then accidentally gets locked outside and gets panicked and then realizes that, “Oh no, I’m gonna die,” ‘cause like she - she wanted to not exist, but I don’t know if she wanted to die, right then, because death - in a universe where death is literally not the end if there’s a necromancer around, um, it’s - she definitely - she definitely didn’t want to exist, but she hadn’t thought about the implications until she was out on the ice.

N: It’s really not funny, but I definitely laughed, uh, because there’s this - there’s this like, “I’m gonna die, this is my plan, I’m just gonna go out there and I’m not gonna exist and it’s gonna be great,” and then the door locks and she goes, “Oh no, that thing that I’m planning for might happen.”

R: And then she also has kind of this like, I say romantic in terms of like, colorful...

N: ...She’s romanticised...

R: ...picturesque idea...

N: ...it...

R: ...yeah, she’s romanticising the idea of her dying, because...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...she’s like, “Oh, I’ll be covered in snow, I’ll look like I’m in the white robes of the Clayr...

N: ...I’ll be so pretty…

R: ...and it won’t be until” - yeah the...

N: ...Yeah...

R: … “I’ll look like one of the Clayr for the last time, if my body’s all covered in snow and they have to unfreeze me in order to figure out who I am.” Uh - which feels very fourteen.

N: Oh my god.

R: Um.

N: Unfortunately.

R: Worried about the aesthetic of dying.

N: [laughs] Um, there’s also some implications later too that like maybe part of what influenced her, um, to be more in the suicidal route instead of the say, running away route, or the uh, self harming route, is - is really her death sense, because she can always sense death, and so it’s kind of in her head and she doesn’t actually know that that’s what that is yet. Um, and so it actually kind of makes sense from a narrative perspective that that would be the route that she would go.

R: Mmhmm.

N: ‘Cause it’s right there, and it’s always there, and she can always sense it, and she’s always aware of it, and - and it’s right there and, “What if I could just do that,” and like...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and um, I - I personally think that that’s a really smart narrative choice because it does kind of foreshadow a little bit the fact that she is - she is the Abhorsen, and that’s the line in her blood that is - is going to kind of be in charge.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, and - I don’t know. It’s very dark, it’s very sad, it’s very, um, I mean, you know, not fun to live through, but narratively - narratively...

R: ...But I...

N: ...I - I think it makes sense.

(35:18)

R: I also think it’s important that it wasn't like, “Oh, getting the Dog and being in the library didn’t magically fix everything,” she didn’t...

N: ...No, no, no, no...

R: ...I...

N: ...not at all...

R: ...think narratively it’s important - in terms of like the message, it’s important both that she doesn’t kill herself and that she doesn't stop feeling suicidal, not like we want a character to suffer longer, but that - but it - but - but if - if it had been the other way, if as soon as she has this job she no longer worries about this at all ever, it would feel like it wasn’t...

N: ...Feel disingenuous.

R: Yeah, it’d feel like not helpful, and weird, and distant, and but this doesn't because um, I feel like I’m ready for the wrap up, but...

N: …[laughs] same...

R: ...because, yeah because it doesn’t - it doesn't magically fix it, it literally doesn’t magically fix it...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...um, and it gets - it gets better but it’s not - it’s not gone, and so - as she starts to accept that she’s never going to have this, and she gets past the age where she could hope for it, because she gets past the age, that um, Ryelle and her twin, trying to remember...

N: .... Sanar...

R: ...anyway, trying to get past - Sanar! Yes, Sanar and Ryelle, try getting past the age that Sanar and Ryelle were when they got the Sight, which I believe was sixteen.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Um, and she gets - that gives her hope for a couple more years that she might get it when she’s like sixteen, and then she doesn't but she’s starting to accept it a little, that...

N: ...Yeah, it’s - it’s - it’s a lot of times easier, and this is definitely true in this - in this book with this character, it was easier for her to move on and do literally anything else with her life, when she wasn’t holding out hope for that thing. Um, like the hope and then watching that hope come to - fruition was - was not - not - she was not dealing well with that, but then once she was past that and it was like, “Oh, well I can do this other thing and I am not worthless and also I am no longer waiting for that thing everyday, forever,” um...

R: ...but she was still waiting...

N: ...that’s when she started...

R: ...for because...

N: ...Oh she’s still...

R: ...I think...

N: ...it’s still definitely in the back of her head, but it wasn’t this - we did - we...

R: ...this isn’t...

N: ...kind of get more of an impression that it’s no longer just this constant drum beat of like...

R: ...Oh sure, sure, and I just...

N: ...some day, today could be the day, and - and it helps...

R: ...she has something else to live for...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and also, I just had the thought that Sanar and Ryelle they got the Sight when they were sixteen, and it was on her seventeenth birthday that she, uh, had another like, really severe bout with suicidal ideation.

N: Oh yeah.

R: So it was, yeah, I don’t think…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...coincidence...

N: ...Oh no...

R: ...when she had passed the age where they got it.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, it was rough, but then by the time she’s nineteen it’s - it’s better.

N: Welcome to our wrap up session for this episode [laughs]. Um, so, ok. So let's talk about our gratuity rating. Um, just as a reminder; backstory, offscreen, mild, moderate, severe, pornographic.

R: Eh, torture porn. It’s important to use the full phrase, torture porn...

N: ...torture porn...

R: ...because just saying pornographic implies something entirely different.

N: Fair enough, torture porn. Um, so, Mr. Cochrane...

R: ...Ah, feels...

N: ...a lot of it was offscreen-y.

R: Ok, I feel like...

N: ...almost?

R: ...that’s more of a point of view thing. It’s on screen, it’s just not his view point.

N: It’s just not his screen.

R: It’s just not his, yeah. So we’re watching him, so I think it’s - well we’re watching - yeah I think this one is moderate. Like we don’t get inside his head or anything...

N: ...Right...

R: ...but - but what's there is pretty rough.

N: I mean we - yeah.

R: Like, I - I think that - that scene is so entangled with like kids he’s in charge of…

N: ...Right, like he’s not really the focus...

R: ...stuff is happening around him...

N: ...because of the scene itself.

R: Right, but the scene that he is in is somewhere between moderate and severe.

N: Yeah.

R: I think moderate, because we don’t - there’s no gore, there’s like...

N: ….Yeah, if we were...

R: ...but I think...

N: ...if we were looking at Nick or Sam it’s severe, but...

R: ...Yeah, for his part of it...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...it’s moderate. Um.

N: Lirael and her parents, I mean - ok, so when we’re looking at this, we’re not looking at the scene itself for this particular one, we’re looking at the trauma.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, I would say - I would say it’s actually probably moderate also.

R: Yeah, how it’s depicted in the book...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...in her head it’s totally severe, but it’s...

N: ...Ok, well….

R: ...the way it’s...

N: ...we’re talking about, yeah, we’re talking about...

R: ...the way it’s depicted...

N: ...it’s depiction, so...

R: ...yeah it’s moderate.

N: Yeah. Um, we definitely get the implication that it is definitely worse in her head, but.

R: Yeah.

N: U, yeah. And then...

R: ...Yeah

N: Lirael and suicide, uh, that’s...

R: ...I...

N: ...severe.

R: Yeah.

N: That is definitely severe.

R: Yeah.

N: Depiction and topic, all - all severe, um.

R: We get her litinay, like...

N: ...we get - we get a lot of things, that just...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...up the ante on that.

(40:56)

N: Um, moving on to why this trauma. Is it integral to the plot, interchangeable with something else but they needed something, or is it kind of irrelevant.

R: Mr Cochrane is interchangeable. It didn’t have to be him, didn’t have to be exactly that way.

N: I, honestly feel like it’s irrelevant.

R: Irrelevant? Um, Mr. ...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...Cochrane himself, oh that’s true.

N: ‘Cause we could just - we could kill that character, figuratively, literally, just remove him from the story...

R: ...Uhuh...

N: ...just cut him out, and nothing changes.

R: He could - he could have run away...

N: ...He is...

R: ...he - he could even...

N: ...purely background.

R: He could even...

N: ...he could - he could have just never been named and it...

R: ...He could have been...

N: ...would have been fine...

R: ...bribed - he could have been the bribed bus driver and they didn’t have a coach, and he runs away.

N: Yeah.

R: Like, he rode the bus and couldn't handle it, like...

N: ...Yep...

R: ...it could have been any of that.

N: Yep. He literally didn’t even have to be there. Uh [laughs].

R: I guess that’s how it happened...

N: ...I think that’s actually...

R: ...Yeah, that’s our first irrelevant.

N: That’s our first only irrelevant. We’ve had a couple that were interchangeable or irrelevant, depending on your...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...your argument, but, yeah.

R: You’re right, he’s totally irrelevant...

N: ...He doesn’t even matter...

R: ...to the text.

N: Uh, he’s - he’s just perspective.

R: He’s just sprinkles of pain, he's just favor text.

N: [laughs]

R: Poor Mr. Cochrane.

N: [laughs] Pain - pain, ice shavings...

R: ...ah...

N: ...and ice - an ice cream cone of shame - pain.

R: Alright.

N: Anyways. Moving on.

R: Lirael.

N: Lirael’s parents. Um, this - this - so Lirael having this moment - this trauma, I actually think this is integral.

R: You think - so.

N: I think that she - I think it was incredibly important for the story that she - first off, it’s how she found out that she was an Abhorsen.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Which, you could argue would make it interchangeable.

R: Mmhmm. Yes...

N: ...But also...

R: ...that part of it is interchangeable...

N: ...but also - like he could have - she could have found out some other way. But also like...

R: ...She wouldn’t have had a reason to make the Dog...

N: ...Yep...

R: ...she wouldn’t have had a reason to do...

N: ...Yep...

R: ...any of the stuff in the story...

N: ...It’s a whole identity thing that fueled her entire storyline, and this was the end of that identity thing. And...

R: ...You could do something...

N: ...I think...

R: ...but you’d be writing a different story.

N: Yes, and I think that technically you could probably argue that that is also interchangeable, she could have had something else that ended that story. She could have a letter from her mom for example.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But like, I think that the two interchangeable, separate things put in together...

R: ...Right...

N: ...jumps this up to integral.

R: Yeah. Because you’d have to - you can’t just change one thing, you’d have to change both of them...

N: ...You would revamp...

R: ...And that starts to be...

N: ...a lot of the story if you wanted...

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...to not have that thing happen.

R: Alright, and then...

N: ...Which is weird...

R: ...we have...

N: ...because it’s such a short moment in the book...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and it’s only her...

R: ...but the lead up...

N: ...only for her, but like...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...it really does matter. Um.

R: Well, it’s not only for her, it’s how she finds out she’s related to Sabriel. This is how she finds out...

N: ...I - I meant more like...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...she’s the only one who experiences it.

R: Ok, yeah.

N: Um. But yeah, like it’s - it’s so tiny but, I mean, you kinda need it. Um.

(44:18)

N: And Lirael with - with suicidal thoughts. This is also integral. This is the...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...plot point and the fuel, again for really the first half of the book. It fuels everything because if she - she hadn’t had these moments she wouldn't even have been given her job as a librarian, she wouldn’t have practiced Charter magic, she wouldn’t have...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...created the Dog…

R: ...I…

N: ...it fuels the rest of the story….

R: ...I...

N: ...and it…

R: ...have a...

N: ...also has a...

R: ...counterpoint...

N: ...lot of foreshadowing, and there’s a lot of things. Counterpoint - go.

R: I have a counterpoint. Ok, so, we have, in canon, an example of what it could have been interchanged with.

N: We do?

R: We literally have what it could have been interchanged with. Because...

N: ...Which is what?

R: ...we have the Clayr - the Clayr erase her memory of exactly what happened, and give her a false memory of what happened, and if that had...

N: ...Uh...

R: ...been what actually happened...

N: ...If that had been what actually happened, then she shouldn’t have had the opportunities that came from that moment. They erased her memory...

R: ...But if she - if they had like - if she had just been like out - I guess...

N: ...No, because...

R: ...I guess outside...

N: ...because if...

R: ...and she’d been unhappy...

N: ...she had just been outside...

R: ...and had the ideation right, right.

N: Right. If she had just been outside, they would have just told her to go back inside. Instead, she was struggling with all these things, and so they gave her the library job.

R: Yeah.

N: That would...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...not have happened otherwise, because would have been - just been still a child.

R: Right, right. Ok. I just wanted to try and see if it really was interchangeable since we get...

N: [laughs]

R: ...her.

N: Nope!

R: She - she thinks literally that something different happened...

N: ...Oh yeah...

R: ...so, yeah.

N: Yeah. But also like, we’re not just talking about that one scene, we’re talking about...

R: ...That’s true...

N: ...this thing that shaped every day of her life...

R: ...because she wouldn't have been...

N: ...for nineteen years...

R: ...outside without it.

N: Well, more than that...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...she wouldn’t have - she would have behaved and treated and acted the way she did. She wouldn’t have isolated herself. She wouldn’t have been...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...quiet with everybody. She wouldn’t have...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...made the Dog. She wouldn't have gone for a profession that isolates her, intentionally. Like...

R: ...True...

N: ...there’s so much to this where it’s like, it’s really - it was really just an identity thing for a long...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...long time. And you can’t swap that out.

R: ‘Cause she wouldn’t have had this experience to be good at the stuff...

N: ...Yep...

R: ...in - in Abhorsen without this, ok.

N: Yep.

R: Alright.

(46:37)

R: Um, was it treated with care, Mr. Cochrane. No.

N: No. But we...

R: ...no it’s not...

N: ...kind of talked about this a little bit, like it wasn’t but also - well did we talk about this in the episode, or in our pre...

R: ...Ah, I think it was in our pre-discussion.

N: So...

R: ...So...

N: ...yeah.

R: He is not treated with care because it’s more...

N: ...There’s...

R: ...I don’t know...

N: ...there’s...

R: ...he feels...

N: ...so much...

R: ...I feel bad that...

N: ...there’s so much stuff...

R: ...he feels like the laugh track. It’s like...

N: [laughs]

R: ...it’s like he’s the levity. Him...

N: ...I - I actually think it’s the opposite.

R: Yeah?

N: I don’t think he’s the laugh track. I think he’s the grounding in the horror.

R: Ok, and the boys are like, “This is just Cricket.”

N: No...

R: ...No what?

N: ...but it’s more that like in Sabriel we have this - we’re introduced to this whole world where the death, and the dead, and being in death, and being with the dead, and having zombies, and having, you know, ghoul equivalents and things like that, is just life.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But that’s pretty horrific.

R: Yeah.

N: Mr. Cochrane, is...

R: ...sees it for the first time and can’t handle it...

N: ...he...

R: ...because it is so horrific...

N: ...yeah. He...

R: ...Ok...

N: ...is the grounding in how horrible this is.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, and he’s - and he’s really the only one, ‘cause like you said like the other boys kind of take it in stride, and he does not. And - and I...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...think that that’s - I think that that was intentional actually, probably….

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...um, at the set up and I - I - when I say set up, I realize this happens almost 200 pages in...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...we had Lirael for awhile, but it’s the setup of like the Abhorsens and what they do, and their world, um, I think it is important that we got, um, the beginning of a new story, we got a character who still doesn’t treat this as matter of fact.

R: Yeah.

N: I think that was important. Um, so ironically enough, I don’t think this is integral, I think it’s interchangeable maybe, but I don’t think it is irrelevant, because I think it is important for that setup.

R: Oh you don’t think it was irrelevant?

N: No.

R: You’re changing your mind?

N: Oh no, I - I definitely think - I’m sorry, whoa. Hold up.

R: Because we’re not talking about that.

N: We’re in...

R: …We’re talking about...

N: ...the wrong category. We’re talking about care. It was not...

R: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah...

N: ...it was not treated with care, but that’s fine.

R: Yeah, we already said it was irrelevant, uh...

N: ...we already said it was irrelevant, yeah. Um, but he - he definitely like - it wasn’t treated with care, but I think that was deliberate, because I think it was supposed to remind the reader like, “Hey...

R: ...this is horrifying...

N: ...this is not - this is horrifying...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and that’s kind of what it is, and that’s how it’s built, and there's no real...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...exception to this. Um.

(49:16)

R: Alright.

N: Lirael’s...

R: ...I have...

N: ...parents.

R: It - It’s...

N: I actually think this was treated with care.

R: Yeah.

N: At no point...

R: ...It’s very...

N: ...at no point as a reader...

R: ...art...

N: ...did I feel like I was experiencing it.

R: Yeah, it’s artfully, deliberately done. She has the final revelation at a point when she’s able to handle it.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Which is important.

N: Yes.

R: And at a point where she’s already met someone she’s now related to.

N: Yep. she’s already kind of gotten the family, to replace that...

R: ...no wait...

N: ...that loss...

R: ...she was alone when she looked into the mirror.

N: No...

R: ...But she...

N: ...she had Sam...

R: ...what, no, ‘cause she was alone with the Dog when she looked in the mirror because she looks into the mirror on that island, and then Sam floats by. But - but she doesn’t realize who her father is, until...

N: ...Oh, right, right, right...

R: ...she’s with Sam. So it’s...

N: ...So she does still have...

R: ...two parts...

N: ...the Dog.

R: Yay. Oh, that’s true. But she was...

N: ...She’s not literally alone...

R: ...but she still felt alone even when she had the Dog, when she was...

N: ...true...

R: ...in - in the ice, in the - the - the glaciar...

N: ...but I still think...

R: ...so...

N: ...it was treated with - I still think it was treated with care.

R: Oh yeah, yeah, but I just - the point at which - like there is this like middle where...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...she still - by the time she realizes...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...the full implications, she’s now surrounded by more closely related family. She now has her nephew.

N: Right, right…

R: ...Um...

N: ...right, right.

(50:44)

R: So then, her ideation. I think...

N: ...Uh...

R: ...I think it was...

N: ...I - I think that I have to defer to you on this, ‘cause I’m not sure.

R: With ideation? Um, [sighs] I think - I think it could be triggering for anyone who had a parallel thing.

N: That’s what I was wondering.

R: Yeah, like, I...

N: ...Yeah. Yeah, ‘cause I am definitely more the run away type instead of the suicide type, if we’re gonna - so like, me reading this I was like, “Oh yeah! That’s very visceral imagery. Moving on.”

R: Yeah, not it was...

N: ...Anyways. Um.

R: Yeah, no it’s - I think it is treated - again I have no - I don’t want to say - and I...

N: ...you don’t realize...

R: ...have no idea...how much like, how personal the author’s experience is with this at all.

N: Oh.

R: Um.

N: Ok.

R: It feels - but it feels very - it feels very real, um.

N: Hmm.

R: And so I don’t think it was treated without care, but I think that when you have a first person view of someone with suicidal ideation...

N: ...that’s really hard...

R: ...no matter how much...

N: …to treat with care and - and still make it...

R: ...It is not - it was not done...

N: ...I think...

R: ...it was not done callously, and I was saying, like we find out what her ideation is and then after that, we only get a couple of references to this specific phrase like, I think...

N: ...So if we’re...

R: ...that it is...

N: ...thinking no, not enough, enough, or yes; probably enough care?

R: I think enough?

N: Ok.

R: Yeah, enough care. Given that this is the topic, given that this is the point of view...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...it had enough care, um.

N: Mmk.

R: yeah.

(52:40)

N: Point of view of the trauma. Um point of view of the actual event and the aftermath for Mr. Cochrane...

R: ...Mr….

N: ...are both Sam. Oh no! The aftermath...

R: ...Nick...

N: ...I guess we get Nick, because it’s during...

R: ...And during it we get Nick too...

N: ...his letter...

R: …’cause Sam runs off, a little bit.

N: Oh true, ok, so Nick for - Nick for both. So not...

R: ...Yeah so Nick...

N: ...not the...

R: ...Nick and Sam...

N: ...victim, not the perpetrator, a third party.

R: Yeah, Sam - Sam and Nick, between the two of them, because, yeah. And it’s just a third party, not his point of view. We don’t know what he’s thinking, other than...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...that he seems upset about this, because we mostly have Sam watching him not react well...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and then Nick watching him not react well, and then Nick being very glib about it.

N: Yeah, Nick was just kind...

R: ...but also...

N: ...of like, “Oo, costumes...

R: ...but also it is...

N: ...What is this?”

R: ..important to remember that at that point Nick literally was unable to process the fact that they’d gotten attacked by dead people. Like...

N: ...True, so Nick’s not exactly...

R: ...like we don’t want...

N: ...a reliable narrator. [laughs]

R: Right, Nick is not a reliable narrator for this. So Nick being glib, I don’t think is an indication of callousness, I think is more the first indication of things we’re gonna talk about with Nick next episode.

N: Fair enough.

R: Uh.

(53:53)

N: Uh, Lirael’s parents, point of view, trauma and aftermath. We kind of just get Lirael’s voice.

R: Oh yeah, totally Lirael. Um, I would argue that we get her mother - we get - with - with the point of view I think that we can count within the point of view, um, her - we have her perspective with finding out what happened with her parents, but also it’s kind of unique and interesting that she got to watch her parents talk and meet. I...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...think that was an interesting point of view choice, even though it’s not specifically the trauma.

N: Right.

R: Um, I think, yeah it’s - it’s just her point of view, because it’s literally about her...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and we’re following her, so that totally makes sense.

N: And same with her - her suicidal thoughts.

R: Yeah...

N: ...Basically...

R: ...we never get...

N: ...we just get her...

R: ...anyone else’s perspective on her ideation...

N: ...Nope...

R: ...because they can’t hear it...

N: ...they’re not part of it...

R: ...and we get a lot of it - we get a lot of - we get a lot of her thinking about how they don’t care enough, or aren’t attentive enough...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...but we don’t really get them - the closest we get is Filris saying she that should have checked in on her earlier.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Which isn’t quite the same thing.

N: Yep.

(55:21)

R: Alright, ready for the writer tip?

N: Yeah, so aspiring writer tip, [sighs] um.

R: I don’t know, I think - I think even though we classed...

N: ...this is a hard one...

R: ...we classed Cochrane as irrelevant...

N: ...that doesn’t mean - that doesn’t mean he should have been cut.

R: No, no, no, but just plotwise...

N: ...plotwise...

R: ...he didn’t have to be there, but I think that it was good to include him, and for my aspiring writer tip, I would say - especially part way through how having something that reminds us just how crazy this all is...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...without it - without it being someone saying, “You know this is crazy right? Because…”

N: ...Right, like there’s so many more ways to do than have a character be like, “What is going on guys?” Like.

R: Right.

N: There’s...

R: ...I think the combination - the combination of Nick literally being unable to understand what is going on, which we’ll talk more about next book, and Cochrane - or next episode, and Cochrane, as he gets it.

N: Mmhmm.

R: It’s worse and worse and worse because this is terrible. This would be awful.

N: Yeah.

R: This would be so bad to stumble upon...

N: ...yeah...

R: ...if it wasn't already a part of your life. Um, and I think having that - that fresh perspective of someone coming in, not understanding, but not being...

N: ...not - not…

R: ...a…

N: ...not disbelieving...

R: ...not being a...

N: ...just...

R: …’cause we - we get - we get soldiers who don’t have the Charter Mark, and don’t know what’s going on and make...

N: ...Right...

R: ...idiotic moves, we have - like we get all sorts of interactions with people who don’t know what’s going on, but Cochrane’s slow descent...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...into realizing as much as he is able to, because we don’t get his point of view so we don’t know, but just like, anyway, for aspiring writer tip, having something come in from the side and remind us of...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...a - of how weird the story world is, especially as - I should say this is a story that has a deliberate contrast between the weird magic stuff and not, because if you’re only in weird magic land having someone go, “You know it’s weird that we can raise the dead?” that doesn't - that - that - that wouldn’t work [laughs]...

N: …[laughs] yeah...

R: ...but since we have - since we have a world where you can and a world where you can’t, someone from the world where you can’t being, like, “Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, what? What? What?”

N: Yeah.

R: In a smart way, it works, and, I like that, um so.

N: So, TLDR: aspiring writer tip, it’s ok to ground your world using background characters from other places.

R: Yes, yes.

N: Yes.

R: Thank you for turning that into a TLDR. Alright.

N: You’re welcome.

R: Alright.

(58:26)

N: Um, favorite thing, positive thing, non traumatic thing about the book?

R: Um, I think, uh, I just got to the end of this episode and then it was like, “Ugh, why didn’t we have one of our topics being the binding of the Stilken?” Dang it.

N: Oh.

R: Uh, unfortunately not nontraumatic.

N: There’s a lot...

R: ...I like the Stilken...

N: ...of non traumatic things to choose from though.

R: That’s true, there’s so many. Alright, so, alright, favorite non traumatic thing about the book. Did you want to take the Dog, or should I?

N: [laughs] Uh, it doesn’t matter.

R: Did you have anything other than the Dog?

N: Yeah.

R: Ok, I’ll talk about the Dog then...

N: ...Ok...

R: ...because I just - I just have the Dog...

N: ...Ok.

R: Uh, favorite non traumatic thing about the book, the Disreputable Dog, is great. Alright, favorite non traumatic thing about the book, the Disreputable Dog because she just goes where she want, does what she want, because she’s a Dog and uh...

N: ...and she wants to be Lirael’s friend.

R: Yeah, she wants to be - Lirael’s friend, and go on walks, make other people go on walks, uh, and...

N: …[laughs]...

R: ...uh, [laughs] and - and she just like, Lirael’s trying to make a friend and trying to make like a puppy, that’s magical and can’t go very far, and then she gets this full grown Dog who can have octopus suckers on her paws...

N: [laughs]

R: ...um...

N: ...It’s great.

R: It’s so good. The Disreputable Dog is amazing. One of the best things about this book. I could read so many books that are just the Disreputable Dog, like being somewhere with somebody doing stuff.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, I - I really hope, I haven't read “Goldenhand” yet, so I’m holding out hope that she’s in Goldenhand. [sighs] Don’t tell me, don’t...

N: ...Ok…

R: ...tell me if she is.

N: I won’t.

R: I just...

N: ...I won’t...

R: I’m hoping. We’ll see how this works. Everyone will find out in a few episodes whether or not I was right.

N: [laughs]

R: Um.

N: Ah.

R: Well - just put this in perspective, until reading them for this thing, I had only read “Sabriel”, - “Lirael”, and “Abhorsen”. I had not read - I had not read “Clariel” and I still haven’t read “Goldenhand”. Ah, so I had not read - I had only read “Sabriel”, “Lirael”, and “Abhorsen”, I had not read “Clariel”, I still haven't read “Goldenhand”, so I’m getting to discover there are more books in this series after years and years of just rereading this trilogy, like once or twice a year, no more far apart than every two years. I just, I love this series. Um, the Dog is awesome, so like I read “Sabriel”, and I like “Sabriel”. And then I read “Lirael” and the Dog is amazing. And then I read “Abhorsen” and the Dog is still amazing so, [short sigh] anyway. I have high hopes for “Goldenhand”, I love the Dog, love the disreputable Dog.

N: So my favorite non traumatic thing in this book, um, is, honestly, I really like the little bit that we see of - and this kind of goes into um - I like the way the Clayr are described, in general..

R: Yeah.

N: I like their - their social structure, I like the say that they take care of each other, I like the - there’s even subtle like, “Hey, not everybody here is straight,” um...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...and they just, everything is treated...

R: ...Wait, where?

N: Oh.

R: I don’t know if off the top of my head, where?

N: Ah, there’s the - ok, I’ll find it for you later.

R: Ok.

N: I’ll put it - I’ll put it in the episode description so you guys don’t listen to five minutes of me rifling through pages. Um, so if you’re - if you’re looking for that, I’ll put a chapter and page to look for in the episode description. Uh, but yeah. They - they - there’s just - and it’s not - it’s not like hinting. It’s like, “Nope, this is definitely a thing,” Um.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But they just - they just - they’re - they’re positive, and they’re supportive of each other, and they - they’re always described as like - they have their things that they care about and like their own, you know, hopes and dreams and goals, and Lirael kind of sees them as all about the Sight, but we as a reader definitely get more than that, and I just, I don’t know. It’s very, very rare to have in real life, or in a book, a description of a - a clan so to speak...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...that all lives together and works together, without it being a negative thing or a traumatic thing, or culty thing. It’s just...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...I like it. I think it’s cool.