N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin and welcome to Books that Burn where we're going to be discussing “Abhorsen” and “Lirael”...

N: ...Uh…

R: ...by Garth Nix part of - which is part of the “Old Kingdom” series.

N: This is our second week discussing these same two books because our characters - we’re choosing characters and not just plot points for each of them and our main characters’ storylines kind of overlap.

R: Alright so factions, mostly the same as before. We've got Lirael, Sam, Ellimere, Sabriel. Touchstone, Disreputable Dog, Mogget, the Clayr, Orannis, Nick, the Southerling Refugees, Hedge, and Chlorr of the mask.

N: Um, so jumping right into our minor character spotlight, Nick. Um, so Nick - it was kind of - his -he kind of starts out kind of funky because he wasn't the intended target for his - his trauma.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, his - his major trauma was a piece of Orannis, just a tiny sliver, a shard put under the skin of his finger that slowly worked - it had to be very tiny because it didn't kill him doing this. It slowly worked its way through his veins to lid - to lodge itself in his heart. Um, uh, which actually now that I'm thinking about that saying that out loud, that must have been like a splinter of glass, like the tiniest little sliver. That’s not very big at all, uh which is weird because Orannis is described as being this huge, like miles wide giant sphere…

R: ...They...

N: ...at one point…

R: ... moved it so it's not miles wide.

N: It’s not - I guess it's not miles wide. No you're right. Like it’s…

R: ...he's on a cart…

N: ...but it's still big - it's still big…

R: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah…

N: ...and the idea of the sliver being small enough to go through your veins and your arteries is - it must have been very tiny. Um, but he had this - he had this in him which facilitated his, um his kidnapping, um his distorted sense - really it's gaslighting, distorted sense of reality being told literally what he was seeing wasn't what he was seeing for essentially most of two books.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Um, his - his actions were not his own, his, like - sometimes they were but every - his senses were overlaid by the presence, the entity the - the personality, and the self in the shard and so even when his actions were his own, his senses were not, um and sometimes, uh Orannis did just take over his body, speak through his voice, walk his legs somewhere, um, just not all the time, and - and - and we call it gaslighting because in - in the - in some few moments of lucidity he looked around him and went “Whoa this isn't where I wanted to be. What am I doing? This - these people are - are dead. What is going on?”

R: And then [Hedge] tells him, “No, no, no, they're just sick…

N: ...Right…

R: ...You don’t want to touch them ‘cause they're gross and sick….

N: ...Right…

R: ...Go back to sleep.

N: Yeah, it's - it's - it's a very - I almost - the wording I want to use is literal form of gaslighting but it's a - it's a physical manifestation old form of gaslighting where you're not just being told your senses are wrong, your senses are being hijacked to tell you wrong information. Um.

R: Just you know, gaslighting plus VR.

(4:48)

N: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It's VR gaslighting, um. That's a horrifying thought, um.

R: Hmm.

N: Um, but yeah he was not actually the intended target. This was slated for, uh Prince Sameth, um, but Sam was otherwise occupied in the fight and uh Nick managed - ended up just going and find - the necromancer found him first and didn't at first pay attention to which child he had, um, and I think that that's important because - I think it's important to note because Sam wasn't necessarily prepared to stand up against that, but Sam…

R: ...but Nick was not prepared.

N: Nick had no protection.

R: None.

N: Sam at least would have had both his parents who have full awareness, understanding and like any kind of magical resources to maybe have helped him possibly. Uh, Sam is surrounded by people who are very very good Charter mages. Sam is aware of Charter and Free Magic and has been his whole life.

R: Sam is a very good Charter mage.

N: Sam is a very good Charter mage. Sam might even have been able to fight the Free Magic by nature of being a Charter mage, like that might even have happened…

R: ...But Nick had nothing.

N: Nick had literally nothing. Nick didn't even have belief. Nick was refusing to admit that those - the - the Dead Hands attacking them were dead.

R: Even before…

N: ...Like…

R: ...the shard happened…

N: ...five minutes before he got the shard in his arm, like he had absolutely nothing. Um, and trauma isn't less traumatic because you have someone who in your life who can recognize it, but healing from it is sometimes easier, or preventing more is sometimes easier if you have the support structure, and Nick didn't have that. The intended target did, but not the recip[ient] - not the recipient. Um, I'm trying to think of what all to say about this because really Nick doesn't even remember most of it at the end.

R: No, he - he doesn't remember most of it but I would like to point out that that is also a kind of trauma.

N: True.

R: He just…

N: ...True…

R: ...loses more than a year of his life.

N: Yeah and health.

R: Yeah.

N: Also…

R: ...and his health like all his plans for school and everything got totally upended.

N: Mmhmm.

R: His sense of reality is just wrecked...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and at the end they're like “Yeah go back to Ancelstierre.” Um, he does [sighs].

N: I mean we will grow - we might talk about that more in a later book.

R: Yeah.

N: Sending him back there was not a “Mmm, go about your merry way,” that was actually actually- actually a protective measure for him.

R: Oh sure…

N: ...Um…

R: ...It was - it was a protective measure…

N: ...it wasn’t dismissive…

R: ...but I would argue it wasn't…

N: ...It wasn’t dismissive at all…

R: ...I would like to argue - I would like to argue that it wasn't really a protective measure for him though.

(7:58)

R: ‘Cause it was…

N: ...I mean…

R: …“I’m worried, it was you use Free Magic and Charter magic, we don't know what to do with you, let's just put you as far away from magic as possible.”

N: I - I will say this though, he was officially dead and for all that um, anyone in - in the Old Kingdom could guess, they thought that going to the Old Kingdom would kill him.

R: Right no…

N: ...So - so…

R: ...I just…

N: ...it is - it is protective for him because otherwise they think he will die.

R: So when I hadn't read book five…

N: ...Oh…

R: ...I thought that it had nothing to do with his well-being or safety.

N: Oh, oh okay well.

R: Nothing in the book that - nothing in book three…

N: ...Okay that's fair, but also like…

R: … “Abhorsen” indicates that.

N: That’s fair.

R: And so - but part of my argument is that, because nothing about that communicates that even though that gets softened later…

N: ...Hmm…

R: ...even though that does get softened later, uh…

N: ...your experience at first was…

R: ...Right…

N: ...a very callous…

R: ...because like, being sent away - like things happen all the time where someone's like “We have to do this for your own good,” but...

N: ...Oh…

R: ...when that isn't communicated clearly at the start, that sense of “I got shoved back here and told to live my life…

N: ...Mmm…

R: ...without magic around, pretending that there's nowhere that it's real,” that's a very classic trauma for people who were ordinary, got dunked into fantasy zone and then left, like.

N: Okay…

R: That's - that's a very common trope and I do think that it definitely happened here.

N: Okay…

R: ...even - even though…

N: ... I see what you’re saying…

R: ...there’s reverse of it later, I do think it's important to look at what's in this book.

N: I guess maybe not a reversal because it doesn't reverse Nick's experience, it just gives us…

R: ...No it doesn't…

N: ...it just gives us context as readers to go “Oh they thought he would literally be ripped apart.”

R: Sure…

N: ...Got it…

R: ...people do things for reasons all the time but…

N: ...Right…

R: ...I think it's very important to point out that it doesn't change how…

N: ...Ok…

R: ...stressful - so when at - at the end - at the end of book three, with no other information which is how I was about these books for a decade…

N: [laughs]

R: ...um…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...with treating the ending as book three, I mean I didn't know until two months ago that there was a four and a five…

N: ...Right…

R: ...with - with three, as the ending we don't get Nick's perspective on how he feels about it and he's just sent back and away and it's like I don't know what he's gonna do now…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and it turns out it didn't go very well [laughs]…

N: [laughs]

R: ...which is why we have book five but, um, it [sighs] I - I do think it's very important to look at it from “how is it for Nick at this point”, because we know now that there's more stuff that's happening to him…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...but as a character he doesn't know what's going to happen. He's just been cast away kind of. You know…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...he - he's met the people who were saying he has to go, he's met Sabriel and Touchstone. Hadn't really met the Clayr and so all these people making these decisions, it's one other - it's more people making big decisions that will shape the rest of his life…

N: ...Well and also even…

R: ...and I don’t mean to say…

N: ...the people he’s met, even the people he’s met like, he knows them as Sam’s intimidating parents.

R: Right so…

N: ...They’re not…

R: ...it’s…

N: ...warm fuzzies to him.

R: Exactly it's not like this - it's not like they're as bad as Orannis or anything but…

N: ...No…

R: ...Hedge and Orannis wreck the course of Nick's life and then the just pivot of like “Go back,” and no one's there, no support structure, no one to talk to him. I think it's important to - to address that.

N: Okay moving on to our first main character topic with Sam. So - Sam - that - we kind of get the - the feeling that our - [meow] my cat says hi. [laughs] We kind of get the feeling that um, our third topic which we'll talk about after this, kind of kicks off um, this - this second thing in a very real way but - but this wasn't - this wasn't the sudden thing it was just like kind of shoved into Sam's direct, like line of view and - and - and piece of who he is. Um, so Sam, we find out, inherits the powers of the Wallmakers. Um, which honestly up until we find this out about him - really for all of um, - for all of Sabriel, um, we are given the impression that the Wallmakers don't exist as a bloodline and that they physically put themselves into the wall and the Charter stones and so like, they're not people anymore, but then Sam we find out, is the - is the heir to their - their powers, their legacy. And this is not a case of uh, anyone in Sam's life looking at him as a Wallmaker and saying “Well clearly, you know, like you can't be a Wallmaker ‘cause I don't want you to be,” it's - it's looking at him and assuming because Ellimere is the heir to the um - the ruling bloodline um…

R: ...Yeah, the royal bloodline...

N: ...royal bloodline and they don't know about Lirael yet they kind of assumed that Sam has to be the Abhorsen in waiting because he's the only other child. And so…

R: ...We've got two kids…

N: ...we’ve got two kids…

R: ...so…

N: ...two bloodlines so obviously um, but Sam is not the Abhorsen inheritor um, and he - he has a very like - so we've - we kind of talked a lot in the first two ep - the first two uh, episodes of this series, about how being a - an Abhorsen is - should be a traumatic thing. They deal with a lot of things that are - that can be very, very traumatizing. They deal with - with literal death. They have to deal with things that are constantly trying to drag them down into Death when they are living and breathing things that will try and consume their life essence. Just going into Death is a scary idea um, in general and it's - it's a - you know and - but we always get this feel of like “Sabriel does it and it’s second nature and it's fine,” Lirael experiences the first time and goes, Ah, I'm home,” [laughs] like, ah - they…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...they fit and they're - they're literally bloodline built for it. Sam only ever went in with his mom, never touches the Book of the Dead. Is supposed to, he's supposed to have been studying this.

(15:14)

N: Uh, we kind of get the sense that he had like put it off because he was in school and so he could, you know kind of do other things and not really tackle that part of his - his uh, supposed inheritance, but then…

R: ...Hard to read the magic book when you're in the no-magic realm…

N: ...Right, right exactly. Um, but also like there's this very real feeling of like, he just - that's not what he's interested in and then he goes up against - um, he then - he - he - he deals with our third topic and then he - he's told “Well now you have to do this. Now it's too - now you're late,” [laughs] “You should have been doing this already,” and so he goes and he tries to study and he can't even make himself open the book. He's terrified. He's terrified of death, he's terrified of the Book of the Dead, he's terrified of the bells. He's got some little itty-bitty tiny bits of training from Sabriel, but none of this is an exhilarating experience for him and I honestly thought it was a very interesting juxtaposition because our other two books - our other two main characters have this excitement that comes with it and Sam looks at this and has this, just this dread.

R: Sure, sure…

N: ...Sheer terror. Like - like almost fainting, dizzy, exhausted, falling on the floor, can't get out of bed, like, depressed because he'd have to touch the book. Paralysed, anxious, just the whole cacophony of like, things. But at the same time we find out that Sam is always making things and he's always been making things and his family just assumes he makes things. He has a whole workshop that it's full of things and full of Charter magic and Charter spells that, like, there's - there's one moment where Ellimere comes in and we - we are told that she looks around and she doesn't understand any of it in there, and - and kind of I think the same thing- um, did we get that with Lirael? Oh no, that was just Ellimere I think. I don't think Lirael ever went back.

R: No, Lirael…

N: ...Uh, yeah…

R: ...went to the tower but…

N: ...but Ellimere goes in…

R: ...but we…

N: ...and Ellimere knows 0% of the magic he's even working with.Um.

R: Yeah. Like, “Well I recognize that light spell, cool.” [laughs]

N: [laughs] Yeah, it’s like, “Oh look, a lamp, um cool,” but there's this - there's this very - I - I personally think very well, literiarilly executed sense of repression of his - his inheritance., repression of his powers. Um.

R: Right, and I would argue that it's not - [sighs] like yes his particular heritage comes with this whole thing with, like, magic and…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...stuff but it's - it's also it feels like everyone spent their time like ignoring what he was actually doing…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...and just saying what they thought he should be doing, and yes in the series they have a pretty good reason for thinking that he ought to be the Abhorsen In Waiting because…

N: ...because if he's not then…

R: ...nobody else is as far as…

N: ...yeah if…

R: ...they’re aware…

N: ...he's not…

R: ...right…

N: ...then who and then if something happens to Sabriel everyone's doomed, so yeah that makes sense but like… And - and I had - I had this thought um, reading through it now as an adult that this - this seems very much like a - a - a very stereotypical almost closeted experience…

(18:51)

N: ...um, of any kind where - where…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...this - this character has this thing about themselves and maybe that there are signs their family could have picked up on, maybe, maybe not, for him there were…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...but he very much…

R: ...I would argue that…

N: ...it’s very much repressed…

R: ...I would argue that it's a - it's a perfect stand-in for queerness especially like in recent - [sighs] it’s - it's a very good stand-in for queerness because the problem was that he didn't know the label…

N: ...Oh that too, yeah.

R: So, it was like once you get this - once this word for this unifying thing and that doesn't have to only apply to queerness, that can also apply to like different sorts of like syndromes and identity…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...things and things where it’s like it it puts together, like having the word for it makes all these things make sense. And queerness isn't the only one but I - I do think that it, yeah it definitely does work for that because it's like, “No I’m - I'm not this thing that you thought I am and if we'd had the word for it and known that this was anywhere in the realm of possibility, we might have figured it out earlier…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...but we didn't have we didn't have the word, we didn't have the - the structure for it.”

N: Yeah, and I - I…

R: ...Um…

N: ...do think it's - it's important here too that - I think there's a - I think there's a good parallel to where like, obviously this is not you know the case for everyone. Your mileage may vary, your circumstances may vary, um, but in - in Sam's particular case his parents are not antagonistic. His parents are not doing this to him on purpose, um and - and…

R: ...Right…

N: ...not everyone who is closeted or hiding or unsure of their identity or, not everyone has parents who would be openly antagonistic. A lot of people do. Um.

R: Yeah unlike - then there's the point where this falls away as a good thing for…

N: ...Mmm…

R: ...queerness because it's not like - I - I suppose maybe some people had - yeah there was the gay one…

N: [laughs]

R: ...but it's not like there's like the legendary Queer…

N: …No [laughs]...

R: ...one…

N: ...no…

R: ...in…

N: ...Well I mean that…

R: [laughs]

N: ...that - that’s where it crosses into the fantasy book…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...realm. Um.

R: Right, right. Fan - fan - and I don't think this is necessarily meant to be a fantasy analogue for that…

N: ...No, no…

R: ...it’s just that…

N: ...it’s just very well…

R: ...just that this type of narrative of being fundamentally understood but - fundamentally misunderstood by those…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...around you because of something where you don't have the words for it, that shows up in a lot of fantasy stuff…

N: ...It does…

R: ...and one of the places that shows up in real life is in things like queerness.

N: Yeah, but I - I think it's important to note that even without an antagonistic family he still didn't have an understanding or supportive one. Does that make sense? Like - like he - he - he - he did…

R: ...Yeah, like they're not there.

(21:41)

N: Right, he - he did once he had a label and, more importantly once he had somebody else who was taking on the identity that they - they wanted him to have. Um, which…

R: ...Right…

N: ...like I - I know some people who have - who’ve had parallels in their lives with this where like, if they are gay or lesbian, specifically, then…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...um or uh…

R: … “Oh it's okay because I've got grandkids from your straight…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...sibling?” Oh no.

N: Yeah, I - I have friends who had that pressure of like “You're gonna give us kids right? Oh it's fine your sister has a daughter. Okay we're good, never mind you can go be yourself now,” like okay, cool. And - and their - their parents were never like “You should be straight,” but their parents are like “Well if you can't give us children are you gonna adopt? Can you do some - please! I have to have this void filled,” and - and like

R: Not that gay or lesbian has to mean not going to have any kind of…

N: ...No, no, no, no…

R: ...child…

N: ...but like, biologically that’s the…

R: ...but when people…

N: ...parent…

R: ...are worried about - right…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...right, when people are worried about that then it's like “Oh no, it's not the kind of kid I thought…

N: ...Yeah, or…

R: ...you were going to have…

N: … “Oh no, you're not gonna give us kids by default with your sig - your significant other at some point. You're gonna have to do it on…

R: ...Oh it’s…

N: ...purpose,” like there's variance…

R: ...rant for a later time it's gross if that's the default…

N: ...Oh - oh yeah…

R: ...also…

N: ...that’s that.

R: [laughs]

N: Um. But that is something…

R: ...but…

N: ...I…

R: ...I do see what you're saying. Where part of why it's fine that Sam isn't the Abhorsen is because…

N: …[laughs] because the real show up [laughs].

R: Because Lirael shows up.

N: Um.

R: Yep.

N: And it is a little bit different because like, not giving your - your parents grandkids is not the same thing as the world dying to zombies, because…

R: ...But…

N: ...you didn’t fill that rolel…

R: ...within each family the stakes feel that…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...high. Or…

N: ...or…

R: ...can…

N: ...Yeah, or - or the pressure for sure is a similar…

R: Which is the whole point of a fantasy series.

N: Yep. Um, but yeah.

R: We're - we’re - you probably noticed we're big fans of magical analogues for real-world problems.

N: Uh, I mean, that's why I like…

R: …’cause I - I dislike the narrative that - that fantasy makes you unable to deal with the real world.

N: Oh. I always think…

R: …’Cause…

N: ...I always thought and I've - this is how I've approached fan - I always feel like fantasy is more real-world than historical fiction or real life fiction, because if you're telling a…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...real life story, then you have to be careful because, oh no you might say something that someone disagrees with in the real world and then there are consequences. Um, things…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...get sanitized, things get toned down, things get whitewashed because, they don't want - you want the largest amount of readers and so you can't really - you're not allowed to…

R: ...Get queer baited and then very strange.

N: Yeah, so you - you don't want to alienate any portion of the population as a reader and that includes your homophobic, your racist people, your like - the people that are causing the problem…

R: ...various flavors of bigoted, yeah.

N: Right, and so a lot of - I always dis - I've always disliked fiction based in the real world because it - it - it - it never feels real to me, but fantasy if it's - if it's not a real person then you can tell a story that does parallel real things and honestly I think it - I think people make more interesting, more real feeling characters because they're not limited by “Oh no you can't mention that war because there are real statistics about it. People will argue,” like, um.

R: Yeah.

N: So, I don't know. I think that this - I think that, Sam's parallel is just very well written and very well represented in that way.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Okay moving on to - so Sam - Sam starts almost starts this book, um…

R: ...And to be clear by this book in this case we do mean Lirael…

N: ...we do mean Lirael, I'm sorry, yes…

R: ...leading into Abhorsen.

N: Yes.

R: Yeah.

N: Like the very beginning of our - our two-book span, um. He begins this book uh, um, with an attack aimed at him and as part of uh, rebuffing that attack he goes into death to try and track the necromancer who is sending dead hands out, but, uh he finds him. He’s successful. And he is not even a contender in the…

R: ...prepared…

N: ...fight.

R: Oh he’s not prepared. He did not go in with the bell. He didn't go in with the pan - bells, he didn't go pan pipes. He doesn't have anything…

N: ...He hasn’t even…

R: ...he doesn’t even…

N: ...read The Book of the Dead like.

R: He doesn't even have a spelled sword.

N: No, he hasn't - he's just…

R: ...I’m trying to remember…

N: ...a…

R: ...correctly…

N: ...person who could - he's not even trained yet. He's just a person who can wander into death, and wandered into death and went looking for a trained, very, very powerful necromancer and found him. Um, [sighs] uh the necromancer burns his hand, his wrist, by grabbing it with his fingers um, and uh, [sighs] - and that - that whole encounter he does recover physically, um, but that encounter plus, as we discussed in our - our - our topic two uh, that encounter plus just the fact that he is not the - the bearer of the Abhorsen bloodline in any way, shape or form uh, combine to make death and going into death really just almost a PTSD, “Can't touch it, won't touch it, I have to touch it, oh no I'm reliving it every day. I feel the burned hands on my wrists every day. I think about death and I - I get a panic attack every day,” like, um he just - he's just going over it, over, and over, and over, and he's al - and he's almost forcing himself to relive it. It's - it's not just an unconscious thing because he - he's supposed to be directly confronting death and learning about death, and he doesn't even open the Book of the Dead, and - and part of that I will - I will say um, part of that is not just trauma makes him not wanna open the book. Part of that is a very mag - a real magical thing about books like The Book of the Dead. They only open for people who are supposed to read them. Um, like if you - if you try and force open the Book of the Dead, it has protective countermeasures you won't be able to open it and read it and they - they talk about that a little bit in bits and pieces in - in all three books.

R: Yeah…

N: ...So…

R: ...only a trained necromancer can open it and only an - an, uh, untainted Charter mage can close it.

(28:42)

N: And Sam is neither. Um, well I guess he is an untainted Charter Mage but he is not a trained or untrained necromancer in any way, shape, or form, we find out here, and so you know, I will say that part of like the touching the book and instantly getting like shivers and shakes and - and being done, part of that very well could just be magical, the book is saying that “I'm not…

R: ...No ok…

N: ...for you,”

R: ...I think it's…

N: ...uh…

R: ...it’s very clear - it’s very clear and important to point out that the shivers and shakes…

N: ...He read it…

R: ...happen…

N: ...with his mom…

R: ...the shivers and shakes - so like there was the “I don't want near this,” and then there was “I'm ill from touching it,” and I know we don't get a whole lot of…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...before, but it does seem from the way the narration does that being ill from - from thinking about touching it is new and is from being burned by the necromancer. So I don't think…

N: ...Ok…

R: ...there's any reason to suspect that that's a magical defense mechanism of any kind.

N: I - I think it is - I think it is both. Um, there - there's other - let me see if I can find it. Um.

R: I was looking at the thing after Sam's in the hospital to try and figure out if it ever says what degree of burn it is, but it's enough that he was on - that - that he was just basically out on morphine for days.

N: Yeah.

R: So my guess would be at least second and, [sigh] at least second degree.

N: Yeah, yeah it wasn’t third degree but it was not insignificant. Oh he also writes a lot of letters to his parents trying to explain - like he’s - he’s trying to explain and then he - they - as he puts it “They all go in the fire.” “That night as he had done scores of times before, Sam - he unlocked the cupboard to the left of his work bench and steeled himself to look at the Book of the Dead. It sat on a shelf shining with its own ominous green light that overshadowed the soft glow of the Charter lights in the ceiling. He reached out to it like a hunter trying to pad - paddle wool from the vain hope that it might be only a friendly dog. His fingers touched the silver clasp and the Charter marks laid upon it but before he could do more a violent shaking overtook him and his skin turned as cold as ice.”

R: So, I think he repeatedly has gone to it and tried to read it, but [sighs] - to - um, at least it's still worse.

N: I - I mean it's - it's - I - I agree that it's worse, I just think that - I think that there's enough in here that it would make sense that it is partly the trauma but also just partly the book saying “Don't, like - I'm not for…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...you,” um, and - and there's - because also there - there's a one point, and I don't know where this is now in the book, um, he um, he explicitly says that the only times that he had had the book open and read it before at all had been studying with his mom. Like he had never studied any of it on his own um, and it would make sense to me that his mom would open it and close it because at that point he's untrained. Um.

(31:52)

R: Yeah.

N: So, yeah. And - and he - and - and also um, I'm - I'm not going to try and find this because I'm not even sure if it's at the end of Lirael or at the beginning of Abhorsen, I think it's at the end of Lirael, um, but when he is given the Wallmaker coat and he kind of has that revelation of “Oh this thing that I do all the time is my birthright. It's not just a hobby or an extra whatever,” um, he stops being afraid. Like he's - he’s very much able to like handle like, “Oh well if Lirael’s the one going into death, I'm not scared of death anymore because I don't have to - I don't have to deal with that, that's not my job,” um, and we’d - we’d - I guess this might fit better in our second topic recording but, um, like there's - there's very much this - once - once he doesn't have to be the one doing it, a lot of that - that - that residual, traumatic, recurring pain, um it doesn't go away overnight but it's - it's - it's handleable now. It's bearable now. Um, is there anything else with Sam?

R: I - I do think [sighs],so - so one thing with - ‘cause I feel like almost like we might have had the - the traumas in the wrong order for this one.

N: [sighs]

R: Feel a little bit like that but, if we…

N: ...I mean they're also very intertwined…

R: ...They’re very intertwined but [sighs], him - I think it feels like, I guess him - him not feeling like he fit in predates him getting read by the necromancer but it's complicated rereading the books because he gets around by the necromancer before we get to see how much he doesn't fit in with being the Abhorsen in waiting.

N: That's true.

R: So.