Clariel
Series 1 Episode 4
Book 4 of The Old Kingdom Series by Garth Nix
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
[Insert description from the show notes here]
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)
N: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (0:23-0:39)
Plot Synopsis (0:39)
N: In “Clariel” both the fourth installment and prequel in the “Old Kingdom” series, we learned the story of Clariel, a young noblewoman fighting against the expectations of her birth, wanting nothing more than to live in the woods alone. Unfortunately no one else is content to let her live that life and so on - events unfold in spite of her. [meow]
Factions (0:55)
N: Hi, I’m Nicole.
R: And I’m Robin and this is Books That Burn, where today we are discussing “Clariel”, the fourth book in the “Old Kingdom” series by Garth Nix.
N: Alright, so our minor character spotlight uh, this week.
R: Factions.
N: Oh, you're right, just kidding. [laughs] Our factions this week we have Clariel, Beltiel, Guildmaster Kilp, and Aronzo, Clairel’s…
R: ...Plus minions…
N: ...plus minions. Uh, Clariel’s parents, and then I actually did not write down the name of the wizard, which was my fault.
R: The… the name of the wizard guy…
N: ...Yeah. Uh.
R: We're not talking about him…
N: ...That's fine…
R: ...it’s fine…
N: ...yeah. Oh and Mogget is here also.
R: Oh yes, Mogget, can't forget Mogget.
N:So, uh, important, um, setup for this book. So this book is the fourth book in the series, and it is also at the same time the prequel to the series. Uh, it is…
R: ...But don't read it…
N: ...Don't read it first…
R: ...before you read the other ones.
N: [laughs] It - it chronologically, it is the prequel. Storywise it is a hundred and ten percent the fourth book. It needs to be read fourth. Um, it will not make sense much before then and it will also be necessary to really kind of understanding the fifth book. Um.
R: If you read it first you wanted the backstory, it won't make sense, and you won't care about the stakes.
N: Yeah.
R: I think that's not great for it as a book but that's also not the topic of this podcast. [laughs]
N: Yeah, of - Robin didn't like this one as much. [laughs] Um, it's - this is actually my favorite book in this series, um, but I think that's more of like a…
R: ...Yeah because it's about someone who just want to go live in the forest and at the end gets like dragons and a cool mask, of course this is your favorite.
N: Okay to be fair she doesn't get a cool mask. The mask brands to her face, like.
R: No, no she takes it off, it just hurt...
N: Mmmm [laughs].
R: She does, it - it does get removed.
N: It - it does get removed [dramatic pause]... for now. Um.
R: For - for now.
N: Yeah. No I - I actually like this book because I think I - I think the whole “Please leave me alone, I just want to go live by myself the rest of my life and not have to deal with all of you,” definitely like…
R: … “Please stop trying to date me, I just wanna go…
N: ...Yeah, that kind of…
R: ...off and live myself for the rest of my life, and I really mean it,”
N: Yeah.
R: “No I'm - I'm serious,”
N: Yeah.
R: [laughs]
N: That really resonated with me.
Topic 1: Aziminil. Begins at (3:38), CW for mentions of slavery.
Um, okay so our - our minor - our minor character spotlight is actually, um, and this is…
R: ... Aziminil...
N: ... Aziminil, who you know is a Free Magic being, um. So we've kind of, you know in our - in our other books, we've kind of like heard about those Free Magic creatures that - that Free Magic sorcerers subsume and - and exert their will on that gives them their power. This is the first time that we have seen those creatures actually represented, and they're not represented as a “mystical force” kind of way, they're represented as characters with their own thoughts and desires and idea, um, and so we're gonna talk about Aziminil who is the most instrumental of the two that we get named in this book, um.
R: And she's there for more of the book.
N: That too, but she is - she is Clariel’s first brush with this type of power. Um, she is a recurring character in the book and she - we could - we get - we actually get like a - a decent amount of the things that she wants and is after. Um, I think it is interesting that we don't get those in a humanizing way. We get them in a way that feels very…
R: ...No…
N: ...alien but - but we are given them.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, and I think that that makes sense and I think it's important. Um, but as is the topic of our our - our podcast, that is not to say that she is without trauma. Um, the things that are not - are not traumatic and stressful for her. At - oh, and it is her. We are given specific pronouns for our Free Magic creatures, um…
R: ...Yep…
N: ...in this book. Uh, okay. So to start with, just a traumatic type of existence from a human, again, from a human perspective because she is not written in the human character and she's not humanized as a human character. Um.
R: She is empathized with by a human and that's part of the lens we're using to approach it.
N: Yes. So, Free Magic creatures - a good part of their existence is dependent on either, their willpower when confronted by someone else who can fight a battle of will power, being strong enough to survive or just never being found. Um, and when we say this, this is both Free Magic sorcerers that want to tap that creature for its power, but also other Free Magic creatures, who if they want to be more powerful can consume other Free Magic creatures by willpower alone, and Aziminil, she starts - she - the - her - this is her whole - her whole existence. She's gotten where she is, in however long she's been alive, by being the stronger one. Um, and that's - that's a taxing existence. Um.
R: Yeah. And so, a - as - as for - for trauma, because we don't - we don’t have enough detail to wax poetic on her entire existence…
N: ...No…
R: ...but just what's in the book itself, she gets trapped in glass to try and keep her from being used by Free Magic sorcerers. She does get freed by Clariel and put to work by Clariel and it is un-... it's unclear - well okay, it is pretty clear that she was mostly using Clariel, but with the risk that she wouldn't be able to get out on her own at the end.
N: Right.
R: Um, that she wouldn't be able to get her own freewill back, but basically she's in a position of getting someone to think - getting someone, Clariel to think that they're using her and direct Clariel where she wanted to be, which was near enough to kill the king and use his blood to break the Charter stones.
N: Yeah.
R: So she had a plan. She had a thing she was trying to do but she had to basically, like, hide - I was gonna say servant but she had to hide as a slave, a magical slave...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...in order to try and get that done.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: It's - it's…
R: [sighs]
N: ...and - and it's important to note that, um, the reason that she was kind of forced into that situation in the book, is because she lost the initial power struggle. If she had…
R: ...Right…
N: ...won…
R: ...otherwise she…
N: ...Clariel - we don't actually know if Clariel would have been consumed, or died or just walked around as a puppet. Um.
(8:50)
R: Well we've had instances of Free Magic creatures puppeting someone. Or actually we've had dead puppet…
N: ...We’ve had…
R: ...someone…
N: ...dead puppeting someone…
R: ..we’ve had Free Magic…
N: We haven’t - we haven't had explicitly…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...Free Magic creatures, but also we do have some, I think anecdotal evidence, um that it is possible, but then Clariel would have just become her new body. [scoffs] Um.
R: Right.
N: And it wouldn't have been Clariel anymore and it wouldn't have been a puppet, it would have just been “My new form,” um, but we don't - we don't know for certain, so it's kind of a little bit of conjecture. Um, but okay so, moving back to - to trauma things. so Aziminil in - in the book, in the brief snapshot of her existence that we see, um, she is trapped against her will in a container meant to hold her where she could not do anything, twice. Uh, she actually starts the book um, trapped in a container in a glass jar, um and is freed by a fisherman who she then kind of uses to gain control and power over an area. Um.
R: And then she gets big enough that people come to try and trap her and succeed.
N: Um, and - and so she’s trapped the second time, um, and the second time that she is trapped it is loosely by the Abhorsens, I say loosely because um, they…
R: ...The Abhorsens didn't show up until she was trapped.
N: Yeah…
R: ...and then they didn't show up they just had her delivered to them.
N: Um, yeah.
R: Or - the Abhorsens are not great in this book.
N: They [laughs]...
R: Sorry, sorry everyone. They're not great and that's kind of the point.
N: Yeah, this is - this is a different period in the family history and it's a period where they are…
R: ...It’s four hundred years earlier yeah…
N: ...Yeah, there are - neg - they're straight up neglecting their fam - familial duties essentially and just doing what they want to have a good time in life and ignoring everything else. Um, and - so - so Clariel is - is trapped twice and - and twice has to free herself by convincing a person, a human to - to free her, and she does. Um, the first time she frees…
R: ...You said Clariel I think you meant Aziminil.
N: I did mean Aziminil. [snorts] Aziminil, yes [laughs] was trapped twice. Um, Clariel also is trapped but that was the whole of the book so.
R: That's - that's later sections.
N: Yeah, we’ll go into that. Um, no Aziminil was - was trapped and the first time the co... human that she convinced to free her, she then took charge of him. The second time, uh, she was - her will was sub - subjugated to Clariel’s and then when she was released from that second time, her will was subjugated to Clariel’s again and also…
R: ...Yup…
N: ...then Clariel picked up another more powerful magic being and so at this point in that…
R: ...Oh yeah…
N: ...in that grouping, Aziminil is the least powerful. She is losing no matter who decides that she's lunch.
R: Right, because they have the note that when they're bonded together is the - as the dragon, the other Free Magic spirit, their voice is the one coming through…
N: ...Yep…
R: ...not Aziminil.
(12:39)
N: Yep. Uh, Clariel is - or Aziminil is very much the - the underdog here. [laughs].
R: Yeah.
N: Um.
R: I mean we don't know how she would fare in relation to Mogget but…
N: ...Mogget…
R: ...She was spending the whole time echoing his - his words so…
N: ...I…
R: ...she’s probably under him too…
N: ...I mean i would assume that all of these are under him just because of…
R: ...hmm…
N: ...what we know about…
R: ...Oh yeah…
N: ...who he is…
R: ...who he is. I mean, yeah. I guess ninth bright shiner or…
N: ...Eighth bright shiner…
R: ...eighth bright shiner isn't gonna be a, below a random…
N: ...No…
R: ...uh, Free Magic creature.
N: Um, and - and also you notice that, uh, both those Free Magic creatures like gee - sat up and listened to when he talked. Um.
R: Mmhmm. Yeah.
N: Very…
R: ...Enough gushing over Mogget. Poor Aziminil, uh, I think that's pretty much the limit of what we have to talk about with her…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...partly because, here's the thing she definitely has her own intention. She doesn't like being trapped in this, all the stuff but also we mostly get her being asked for more by Clariel.
N: Yes.
R: Clariel projecting human emotions onto Aziminil.
N: Yeah.
R: Because we don't know how much being in a bottle is uncomfortable versus being a bottle is being in like solitary confinement.
N: Right.
R: Clariel assumes that Aziminil thinks of it as being like a thousand years of solitary confinement but we don't actually know what Aziminil thinks about it other than “I don't like this, I'd rather be killing people,” and…
N: ...Yeah…
R: … “I'd rather be killing people,” isn't…
N: ...That’s not a personality trait…
R: ...isn’t quite the same thing…
N: ...No I’m just kidding.
R: [laughs]
N: No. Um, no, yeah that - that’s fair. It's very much - it's very much through Clariel’s eyes…
R: ...And we’ll talk - yeah and we'll talk about that when we get to the point of view because I - I do you think that's important, but I did want to say like part of why we're a little thin on the ground of like how traumatized she, is other than that we know she doesn't like it, part of why that characterization is a little thing is because on purpose we're seeing what Clariel projects onto Aziminil.
N: Well and also I do think - um, I do think there's a little bit of like, because it is from - from Clariel’s perspective, I do think Aziminil as a character is a little bit hampered and this is a good thing, um, because…
R: ...Right…
N: ...if Aziminil bursts out of the bottle like “Yes, I am free! Time to rain destruction,” Clariel would have been like, “Whoa…
R: ...Ope, back in the bottle…
N: ...back in the bottle, just kidding,” Aziminil has to kind of play it cool, and has to kind of like, seem more…
R: …”Me? I just want to move my shoulders, being”…
N: ...Um…
R: …”in this small bottle, can you help me? Silver's itchy,” like…
N: ...Yeah, she's a lot more intentionally um…
R: ...downplaying it?
N: I almost want to say that like pitiful is a good word? She's trying to get there.
R: Yeah.
N: She's trying very hard…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...to be pitiable. Um.
R:It's hard to be pitiable when you're made of black smoke and fire.
N: [laughs]
R: It's a little rough.
N: That’s true. Uh, she does a very good attempt though, um, and Clariel…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...a hundred and ten percent is like, “Oh I know how that feels, okay,”
R: “ ‘Cause I also want to go be alone and live in the forest.”
N: Right.
R: So…
N: …“Now I'm gonna bend you to my will.” [laughs]
Topic 2: Clariel being abandoned and generally neglected. Begins at (16:00), CW for death, abandonment, parental abuse, and dismissal of autonomy/agency.
N:Okay so moving on to our second topic. Uhm we're talking about our main character, Clariel. Um, specifically we're gonna talk about kind of Clariel’s general just, abandonment and neglect um, by various, call them caretakers in her life.
R: Yeah.
N: Uh.
R: First her parents.
N: First her parents, but not only her parents. Um, she [sighs] she is - she is very much trying to um, kind of struggling even to really be heard…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...um, on things that matter to her…
R: ...’cause even - even when she talks no one's listening. She's like “I…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...want to be like my aunt who didn't marry anybody and go live in the forest and be by myself,” and the book gets this close to saying “I'm asexual stop trying to marry me to people.”
N: Yeah.
R: Like it gets so close.
N: It does.
R: It just doesn't have the language, um.
N: Yeah.
R: And she just doesn't want to - she doesn't want to do - she doesn't want to have her mom's profession. Uh, she doesn't - she doesn't want to be a goldsmith and she didn't want to move to the city where they just moved to. Um, and she just wanted to keep, like, going and visiting her aunt and just being in the forest, and then she wants to join the, what was it? Forest Guard, Rangers, what are they called?
N: I think they're the Rangers.
R: The Rangers, yeah. She wants, um sorry if we're wrong we're just gonna say Rangers for this, she wants to go join…
N: ...They have a…
R: ...Oh Forest Rangers, yeah…
N: ...longer, more complicated title.
R: Yeah but she wants to go join them and then she gets told “Hey like because of the politics things they might stop existing,” and she's like “Oh no, can I fix politics things? No I can't.”
(18:14)
N: Right.
R: “I - I don't care anymore, it's - it’s not gonna work. I'm just gonna have to be on my own - my own way,” but her - her parents are - her - her dad is enabling, her mom is controlling.
N: Mmhmm.
R: And then, when she - after her parents get killed, definitely her dad, possibly her mom, then uh - oh yeah, her parents get killed…
N: [laughs]
R: ...which is like weird and…
N: ...Which didn’t even make our list [laughs]...
R: ...It - that didn't - this book has so much stuff that didn't even make our list as like the trauma.
N: Yeah.
R: By the way, her parents get killed uh, and in the book it's treated as them abandoning her again.
N: Yes. Like - like…
R: ...Which is why…
N: ...they left her when they died…
R: ...it’s in this section…
N: ...and is like, oof, like she's not even sad that they're gone, she's upset that they left her again.
R: Right. Um…
N: ...She’s just…
R: ...and then she gets captured by the Abhorsens, specifically by Tyriel the act - the, like, current Abhorsen, not just one of the potentials…
N:...Right…
R: ...and he locks her in a house by herself. Except she has Mogget…
N: ...He locks her in the Abhorsen’s house…
R: ...Yeah, uh…
N: ...which we’ve seen another…
R: ...manor…
N: ...Yeah, it's just…
R: ...Yeah.
N: And - and - and this is like - like he - he literally frames it as, “You are being locked here, because you want to be, because this is good for everybody.”
R: Right.
N: And like he tells her that. He tells her that she's supposed to be happy about this and - it - and you know the sad part is like, it's not even in a gaslight-y kind of way, it's not that he's trying to convince her that something isn't real or isn't what she thinks it is, it's that…
R: ...No, uh…
N: ...he's trying to tell her like, “Because I think it's good for you, you should believe it also.”
R: Right, he's not telling her he - that she's wrong about reality…
N: ...No…
R: ...he's just saying that her…
N: ...He’s just…
R: ...understanding of reality doesn't matter and he doesn’t care.
N: Yeah, it's a very dismissive, and instead of, um - it's very dismissive and controlling instead of manipulative.
R: Yeah.
N: Uh.
R: And then the Free Magic creatures and Mogget, they're the first one to ask her what she wants, but even when they do that, they're trying to get her to do it in a way that gives them what they want.
N: Yeah.
R: ‘Cause she's like…
N: ...Yeah…
R: … “I want to be free to do my own thing, and she's like, “What?” and they're like, “Wouldn't you like to kill everybody who hurt you?”
N: [laughs] Like, “Wouldn’t murdering them…
R: ...because they…
N: ...all make you free now?” and she’s like “Hmm…”
R: ...because that gets you next to the person we want to kill but we're not gonna tell you.”
N: Right.
R: Uh, so even then they're using her. When her parents were alive they just like, didn't care what she wanted, just at all. Just I - I mean [sighs].
N: She really is - she really is stuck kind of being a pawn for other people to get what they want. It's more than just abandonment.
(21:24)
N: It's - it's abandonment in a way where she is - her whole agency and also any - anything that she cares about at all is - it's not even being dismissed. It was never a consideration. Um.
R: Right.
N: She is a tool for her parents because they want - her mom to get her hands on drop stone work, that's it…
R: ...And I think - I think…
N: ...She…
R: ...Tyriel might even have been the first person to listen and then say he didn't care.
N: [laughs] Yeah, he is - yeah. I think you're right, I think he's the first person that even, like, heard her all the way out, um, at all. Um, she's a tool…
R: ...He’s like, “Oh that will do.”
N: She's a pawn for the - the wizard…
R: ...Mmhmm…
N: ...who we decided not to talk of his name but that's okay. Uh, she's a pawn for him because he wants to - he has his own agenda and goal with - with uh, magical learning and also with like, um, capturing those Free Magic beings, and that's - that's not why he started teaching her. He didn't teach her thinking, “You're gonna be my helper,” but like, he doesn't protect her or think about her wants in the matter at all. Um, he says “Hey, I need to do this thing. I think you should help me,” and when she kind of resists a little bit his reaction is “Oh it won't be that dangerous, it'll be fine,” just…
R: ...The wizard is Cochran.
N: Oh, okay yeah. Um, so we - and then - and then she is - she's a pawn for, um, the Abhorsens because they - they have a - a plan on how to deal with the kingdom eventually and deal with her parents and deal with um, the guild master and Aronzo, who are - are also trying to use her in - to gain themselves more power and, um, and the Abhorsen has a plan for that and quite literally just sticks her under house arrest, at his house but it's still under house arrest, until she can be useful.
R: Yeah.
N: So that she doesn’t run off and then…
R: ...Yeah it's his house but he doesn't live there, so it's not even like she has a - a human being with her to talk to.
N: No, and then - and then she's a pawn for the Free Magic beings, who, you know, again, kind of as Robin said already, like they - they're the first ones to kind of say “Well what do you want?” but also like they do have their own agendas, um, and they - they don't actually care what she wants because they just care about themselves being more powerful and free to do what they want, um, and it's just this whole mess of, she never gets - it - if it were up to Clariel, she would just go be in the woods and never have to see another human being ever again.
R: Yeah.
N: And she would be good, she'd be fine, she'd be happy with that, um, and every single person that she talks to about it basically says either some variation of “Well that's not what I want for you so it doesn't count,” or um, “That's unrealistic and doesn't make sense wouldn't you be so meh - much happier with my thing.”
R: Mmhmm.
N: Um, and just for background context, if you hear random rustling my cat is attacking the beanbag. Uh, that's what that sound is. [laughs] Uh, she did come up earlier, I'm probably gonna - I think I will have edited this out, but she did come up earlier and try and bat at my mic at my - on my face a couple times.
R: I did hear her meow at one point.
N: [laughs] Yeah, uh, she just wants to be part of the conversation.
Topic 3: Clariel being pursued against her will. Begins at (25:16), CW for imprisonment, abandonment, and discussion of parental neglect/abuse/death.
N: Okay so our third topic is Clariel being pursued by guild - Guild Master Kilp and Aronzo. Uh, and when we say pursued, we mean…
R: ...Literally pursued, chased down…
N: ...we mean romantically, sexually, physically at a couple points, she's literally being chased power-wise, um they’re after her marrying Kilp - or I'm sorry marrying Aronzo so that Aronzo can be more powerful in the future. Uh, it's just this whole - it's this whole thing, um.
R: Using her parents to get her to want this.
N: Yeah like, [sighs].
R: And then even like her one, like, human ally who does care about her as a person, even he is like “But - but would you date me, now? What about - what about now,?”
N: [laughs] Like, “Wouldn’t you date me if you weren’t…
R: ...But what about now?
N: ...with Aronzo?” Like no…
R: ...But what if you dated me, like now?” and her response is basically like, “Or you could date the person who's hanging on your every word and was very upset when you wanted to talk to me alone. She's interested in you,”
N: Yeah, and - and he's like “Oh her, pssh, well she's not you,” and ClarieI was like, “Yeah, but I don't want you. Please stop,” Um, she - there's a bunch of times in this book where she's dismissed as being ignorant of how the “game” is played, um, and all that really means is that she is not being subtle when - it's a combination of her not cloaking her desire and other things, uh, which is too straightforward for everybody and they want her to just stop talking because that's too out in the open for all of them, and a combination of, well her desires aren't their desires which means clearly she doesn't know what she's doing.
R: Right, because if she knew the right thing, if she knew what she wanted, she would want what they want...
N: ...Right…
R: ...in a way that fits into them getting what they want.
N: Right, um, and - it's very - it's done in a very belittling way.
R: Yeah.
N: It's not done in a “You need to learn the rules and you'll be fine,” kind of way. It's done in a “You don't want what I want therefore you don't matter,” as a - an entity…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...kind of way. It's almost a couple - for a couple of people it's done in the “Oh you poor child, you'll figure it out eventually,” kind of way and it's just very dismissive and very, very belittling and very um, almost aggressively um, alienating.
R: Yeah.
N: And - and to make it worse by the fact that just being in the city makes her feel alienated. She feels very othered, very separate into - this whole - this whole book, and very uncomfortable. She doesn't like crowds and people and walls and stone, and so it's just - it's just made worse when those same things that she is uncomfortable being in already, and so literally and figuratively trap her from, uh, running away from the people pursuing her.
(28:45)
R: Yeah. And that's also - let's take a minute to circle back to that literally pursuing.
N: Yeah.
R: Like the way she meets Aronzo…
N: ...Oh yeah…
R: ...is he chases her and attacks her in the street as a way to legitimize the idea that there's the threat against her and she needs his father for protection.
N: Yeah.
R: And then he still tries to marry her.
N: There is - yeah…
R: ...There is a date - but no, he tries to marry her.
N: No, he do - they don't care about dating her. Dating implies…
R: … Beltiel wants to…
N: She wants to go.
R: Beltiel wants to date her.
N: Yeah.
R: Aronzo is like, “so the wedding,”
N: Yeah, no, dating - dating would imply that there is any possibility of it not working out and that's not what they want so, it's not…
R: ...Mmhmm…
N: ...part of what’s going on. It's not even - it's not even really an arranged marriage. It's almost an assumed marriage.
R: Yeah.
N: It’s…
R: I mean - no, but here's the thing, it was arranged by her parents, it is actually an arranged marriage, and we say that in the…
N: ...It’s an arranged marriage in that…
R: ...we say that in the literal…
N: ...originally…
R: ...Yeah, it's they literally arranged it. this is nothing to do with like, real world arranged marriages or how they work…
N: ...No, no, no…
R: ...We’re not…
N: ...I was saying…
R: ...That’s definitely not…
N: ...What I’m saying…
R: ...Just saying…
N: ...that - so, from Guild Master Kilp and Aronzo’s perspective, this marriage had nothing to do with Clariel, or her parents, wants, needs or desires. This is a - this is something that they are assuming is going to happen because they are going to make it happen, and they're going to get her as a possession in any way shape or form possible. Um, they started out trying to go through her parents but then her parents looked like they were gonna disagree and then there - her parents died, and then she was kidnapped, and then - and then, uh, when she left, uh, taking Aziminil to the Abhorson, they actually put out a rumor, um, that it was now her mom that was going to, uh, kind of be the person, um, giving them that power but that she would then marry Aronzo eventually and, um, in this - in this whole situation it's not only that her - it's not only that she's being pursued by them, it's that they have decided that she is the tool that will give them what they want, and so they're going to get that power through her even if she's literally out of town. They're going to take it and - and use her as a - as a tool, to give them control over the city.
R: But then also before it got to the, “Well you didn't do what we want, now we're gonna murder you,” bit, it got - she didn't get asked, “Hey do you like this person? Do you want to marry him?” It was, “So we know he just attacked you and tried to murder you, but he didn't attack you and try to murder you because we're telling you that that's not how reality happened,” uh…
N: [laughs] ...Yeah…
R: … “We have arranged your marriage. It is going to happen. You're going to get married,” and oh, the - the way she just messes with them…
N: [laughs]
R: ...when - when it's like, “So my son is engaged,” and she's like, “Oh who to?” like…
N: … “Oh, how sweet. I hope I get to meet the bride…
R: ...Yep…
N: “...some day,”
R: Yeah.
N: It…
R: … “I'm not planning to get married but I'm glad you found someone,” like…
N: ...Right?
R: ...She doesn’t quite say that, but just like that whole - just…
N: ...It's very close to that.
(32:30)
R: Because I - I don't - I - it's not that she doesn't know how to play the game, it's that she thinks that their game is stupid...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...and…
N: ...and she doesn't want anything more to do with it. [laughs]
R: Right, but neither is she as politically savvy as them, that's true.
N: Right.
R: But…
N: ...but it's not because she couldn't be and…
R: ...No…
N: ...not because she hasn't been exposed to it, it's because she just thinks it's the worst and she just doesn't - wants nothing to do with it.
R: Yeah, just everybody wants her to do stuff, and then even like - [sighs] okay so this section was more like being pursued by the Guild Master and Aronzo…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...but then also, once she gets away from them, she's just - like the Free Magic creatures just manipulating her to try and get her to do what they want. They're just better at it? But they're - They're just as manipulative in pursuing. It's like, “Oh yeah. Please use me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's - that stuff's protected with Charter Magic, it'll totally - it'll totally protect you. It'll be fine. What? Disintegrate? Just because you've touched it with Free Magic? No, no, no, no. Oh didn't I tell you that you could lose your Charter Mark if you used Free Magic a bunch? I'm sorry, I'm sorry I didn't tell you that,” I just thought - just that - that whole like - it's not like a literal pursuit, but it's just this like, one like, walking behind her the whole time being like, “You know you should do this thing, that's what I want and not what you want…
N: ...yeah…
R: “...I promise it won't stop you from getting what you want,” but she doesn't really ask [sighs] - she - she alternates between not asking if it'll help her get what she wants and not asking if it'll stop…
N: [inhales] ...Right…
R: ...and because she doesn't ask both at the same time they like…
N: [sighs]
R: ...wiggle out of it, and they're like “oh this won't stop you from getting what you want it's fine,”
N: Yeah.
R: It also doesn't help her or, “Oh yeah. This’ll - this - this'll help you get what you want,” but it also like, stops some long-term goal, and she just never has both at the same time, and…
N: ...Yeah…
R: [sighs] ...even when she's directing, she's not in control, and they're just using [sighs], the Free Magic creatures used her differently but at a similar scale to how much the guild master and Kilp were trying to use her. The Free Magic creatures were just better at it.
N: I will say this though, um, this is not in defense of the - of the Free Magic creatures, but I do think it's an important distinction, um, since we're talking about her being pursued essentially, in various ways, the Free Magic creatures did not pursue her.
R: Okay.
N: She pursued them and decided that this was the conflict now. Um, I - I'm not trying to argue that they are controlling her in self-defense, that's not my argument.
(35:43)
R: Mmhmm.
N: Uh, but I do think it is important to note that if she had just left them alone [laughs]...
R: ...Oh yeah…
N: ...Um…
R: ...if she had just left them alone…
N: ...She…
R: ...her parents - her parents would still be murdered…
N: ...oh no, no, no, no…
R: ...her life would be terrible…
N: ...that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if she had left them alone they would not have come after her.
R: That's true.
N: Um.
R: But once she landed at the house, uh, Mogget was pushing her.
N: Oh yeah but - but that's Mogget being manipulative.
R: [sighs] Sorry I was lumping Mogget under the Free Magic creatures because he is one.
N: I am not.
R: Okay.
N: He - he is…
R: ...Mogget…
N: ...Mogget is his own…
R: ...when I was…
N: ...own.
R: Okay, I'm sorry. When I was…
N: ...Mogget - Mogget is…
R: ...referring to the…
N: ...a tier above. [laughs]
R: When I was referring to like the - all that stuff I'm saying with Free Magic creatures I was thinking of examples with Mogget.
N: Oh yeah…
R: ...Mogget is…
N: ...Mogget is a different…
R: ...pursuing her...
N: ...Yeah, Mogget is pursuing her, but…
R: ...Yeah, yeah…
N: ...not the other two. I am trying to - there's a moment in this book that I love and just, it's so funny. Okay here we go. In - in my book this is page 340. Um, I just - I find this great. Um, uh, “The two creatures nodded and bent down their hands plunging through the pebbly beach into the earth already summoning metal from the depths below. Clariel walked up the grassy bank, beyond the beach of stones and laid herself down. Mogget watched her for a moment, then padded back to the creatures. Both stopped their digging and bent their heads down toward the little cat. If Clariel had been watching, she might have wondered whether they were bowing down to offer homage or simply to hear him better. He whispered something to them, unheard by Clariel and they answered as quietly. Then Mogget went back to his fishing in the shadows and the creatures began to summon iron - iron from far beneath their unnatural feet.” I... there - I think there's another moment where they start to - they start to do something that Clariel doesn't like, and then Mogget gives them a look…
R: ...Mmhmm…
N: ...and they bow down to Clairel’s will so to speak.
R: Oh. So Mogget is not…So not really Clariel’s will. yeah, yeah.
N: Mogget is not the same.
R: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (38:05).
N: Okay, welcome to our wrap-up and ratings for Clariel.
R: Alright, Aziminil. Gratuity rating, it's between backstory, off-screen, and mild, just like…
N: I - I think it's mild, personally.
R: Well, ok. What we actually have…
N: ...We talked about a bunch of - well, I guess - I guess the things that we talked about were more, almost off-screen.
R: Right, yeah. There's the backstory of, we assume it's kind of been like this for a while and it's gonna keep being like this after - long after Clariel is dead.
N: Yeah.
R: But most of it’s off-screen. It's a lot of Clariel imagining Aziminil’s trauma.
N: That's fair, that's fair.
R: So it's - it's mild, because it's somebody else going, “Oh that must have been terrible, and then…
N: [laughs]
R: ...Aziminil trying to manipulate going, “Oh yes, yes it was,” so…
N: “...feel sorry for me,”
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: So, ranging - bouncing back and forth between backstory, off-screen, and mild, uh.
N: yeah I think, I agree with backstory and mild…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...or I'm sorry off-screen and mild. Um, I think backstory almost - it’s not even backstory because we don't actually know for sure that it's…
R: ...Well, I mean, with Aziminil…
N: ...we can - we can…
R: ...I wouldn’t describe it as being like this is your life…
N: ...conjecture…
R: ...of - with Aziminil describing it as being like, “This is the life of a Free Magic creature,”
N: But - but Aziminil doesn't really give any details. Clariel talks about it and then Aziminil goes “Ah, such is my lot in life,” like we don't actually have…
R: ...True…
N: ...we don't actually have like, backstory details. We have…
R: ...Okay…
N: ...imagination that is then used as emotional manipulation. That's like…
R: ...Well…
N: ...it.
R: I mean in terms of a storytelling perspective that's still backstory, but like, yeah…
N: ...I guess?
R: We're just…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...I'm not trying to quibble over when any - any of this is backstory, the - the point is that it's like milk toast. it is like…
N: ...Oh yeah, yeah, yeah....
R: ...not - it's not a lot.
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah.
(40:16)
R: Clariel’s abandonment.
N: Oof.
R: Definitely severe.
N: Really?
R: Ah, between moderate and severe, like…
N: ...Are we - are…
R: ...it’s hard…
N: ...okay…
R: ...it's difficult to have a severe depiction of “not being there”. But…
N: ...I - I don't think - well okay, I think the actual trauma to her definitely was severe, but the depiction of it in the book…
R: ...Oh, okay…
N: ...you think is also severe?
R: Um, the number of times that she gets told to her face…
N: ...Oh…
R: … “I don't care what you want, we’re…
N: ...Okay, okay…
R: ...doing this,” it's just over and over and over. “Stop wanting what you want.”
N: [sighs] “Just do what I want,”okay...
R: ...Yes…
N: ...I gotcha…
R: ...It’s not even “Stop wanting what you want, what what I want,” it’s “Stop doing - stop wanting what you want just do…
N: …do it - don’t - yeah…
R: ...I don’t care…
N: ...just do - okay…
R: ...what you want…
N: ... I gotcha…
R: ...Uh, it’s…
N: ...That makes sense.
R: Even though that’s not our most severe trauma, its depiction…
N: ...Yeah...
R: ...on - on its scale of itself…
N: ...is - is pretty bad.
R: It's pretty bad.
N: Yep. Okay that's - that's fair, um.
R: And then the pursuit is also, uh.
N: Pursuit is also - I…
R: ...Moderate, it - it's moderate.
N: It’s - yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: In terms of our order of escalation it's definitely more of an escalation than the abandonment but like…
R: ...Yeah, it's a worse trauma but it's…
N: ...It’s - yeah, but the - diversion…
R: ...worse than…
N: ...there's - there's - there's so many levels that could they could have taken it to severe…
R: ...though…
N: ...and they…
R: ...hold up…
N: ...didn’t.
R: Our - okay, but the thing…
N: ...well, I guess other than…
R: ...I was gonna say…
N: ...No, I…
R: ...the end game of the pursuit is…
N: ...more severe…
R: ...her parents getting killed, so nope it's severe.
N: Okay. Um.
R: Now, they didn't linger on it so it's not torture porn but it - it's…
N: ...correct, it’s…
R: ...it’s getting up there…
N: ...getting - it's getting pretty bad.
R: Yeah.
(42:15)
N: Uh, why this trauma. Uh.
R: [sighs]
N: Aziminil, it’s not integral.
R: [sighs] It's not interchangeable. We - we already have enough things saying how Free Magic works that…
N: ...but we’ve never - but we've never actually - no we don't. We have enough things of people who practice Charter Magic…
R: ...Oh…
N: ...telling us how Free Magic works.
R: Okay.
N: this is literally the first and only depiction of a Free Magic creature telling us how Free Magic works.
R: okay, I think this is integral to the plot, because the plot doesn't happen if Clariel can't control Aziminil.
N:that's true.
R: like it just…
N: ...that’s true…
R: ... can't - you can't happen without it.
R: Clariel being abandoned, that's also…
N: ...That’s also integral…
R: ...integral to the plot. being pursued, also integral, just…
N: ...is literally the whole plot.
R: Now, even though they're integral, were any of them in any way interchangeable? I don't think…
N: I think the - I think the abandonment might have actually been interchangeable.
R: Okay, ‘cause her parents could have been supportive and caring…
N: ...her parents could have been supportive and just been not part of the decision making, um.
R: Right.
N: But instead they were both.
R: Right.
N: So they're both abandoning her and also literally the reason.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, the pursuit.
R: It's integral, it's not really interchangeable. It would be a totally…
N: ...I - I - I think…
R: ...different story.
N: I think there were so many ways that she was being pursued that you could have swapped out or just nixed a couple of them and had it still work, but I…
R: ...Right…
N: ... think as a concept it's - its integral and not interchangeable.
R: I mean like [sighs], it's like…
N: ...okay, she could have been the power they were trying to put on the throne without marriage being a thing…
R: ...I mean like my…
N: ...she's been a very prospect for power and the guild without the kingdom being a thing. She could have uh, been something her parents were pursuing her to do something without the other people but like…
R: ...like the tagline - the tagline on my copy of the book is “a passion thwarted will often go astray”, and that's just, they didn't let her go live in the woods...
N: ...Yeah ...
R: ...and also...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...Aziminil keeps getting frustrated and/or Mogget keeps…
N: [laughs]
R: ...getting frustrated, like that - that…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...that tagline has a lot of utility but if you…
N: ...Yes it does…
R: ...read it as her trying to go to the woods, then not being able to do that, being pursued, and not - yeah it's…
N: Yeah, as a concept it's super integral.
(44:57)
R: Treated with care, uh?
N: Aziminil?
R: Yeah
N: I mean, I guess. Uh.
R: Let's go with enough.
N: Yeah.
R: Because like it hard to know - it’s hard to…
N: ...we - we don't have enough details from Aziminil to really judge how much care was required, but - but also we weren't given those details which I think is care, actually I'm gonna say it was care, because not giving us those details is a form of care in this instance for this particular character…
R: ...Right…
N: ...he doesn't want to give too many details, because that would be, uh, detrimental to her cause.
R: Mmhmm.
N: Uh, so I - I'm gonna say - I'm just saying that's actually that - that was treated with care, but…
R: ...but in general…
N: ...that was definitely not callous, in any way…
R: ...but in general, in another context this would have been callous because we don't get a - much of the perspective of the person being hurt…
N: ...Oh yeah, absolutely…
R: ...but in this particular case I suspect that we were only able to empathize because - yeah I'll leave that…
N: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…
R: ...for point of view. Um.
N: Uh, very, very, uh, intentional than the author, um.
R: Yeah, I'll talk about a little bit more when we get to point of view. Um.
N: Okay. That’s fair.
R: Their trauma was treated with care for Aziminil.
R: For Clariel.
N: Clariel being abandoned.
R: Oh, we're just getting hit over the head, just over, and over, and over, and over.
N: Yeah.
R: “Did you know that no one cares what she thinks?”
N: [laughs]
R: “Did you know? Did you miss it? Did you sleep for 20 pages?” Oh, no one cares what she thinks. [laughs]
N: Oh we didn't get this character not caring yet. Let me just slide that in.
R: Oh, let's just make sure…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ... we know that nobody cares at all about her…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ... except…
N: ...Um,...
R: ...some - if you're trying to use her. Mogget cares about her…
N: ...That’s not caring - that's just - yeah.
R: Mogget cares about her.
N: Oh Mogget - Mogget cares so much. [laughs]
R: Mogget cares immensely. Uh.
N: Um, yeah. So definitely not treated with care.
R: Yeah.
(46:56)
N: Clariel being pursued.
R: Was it treated - I think that was.
N: I think that was. There's - like I said there's a lot of ways that Clariel being pursued could have been extremely…
R: ...It’s very…
N: ...traumatic to read.
R: ...Right…
N: ...and those things were not done and I think - I think…
R: ...It - it was so…
N: ...also…
R: ...so subtle that we kept thinking of like, “Oh yeah here's another one that fits that theme. oh…
N: ...yeah…
R: ...here's another one,”
N: Yeah, um, and es - especially…
R: ...and the abandonment…
N: ... like with the…
R: ...with the abandonment…
N: ...I think the most…
R: ...it was more like we forgot one because there's too many.
N: [laughs]
R: with the pursuit was more like we kept finding them…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...because they were so well integrated and subtle.
N: Yeah, um, and - and also I will say that like, the most traumatic as a reader moment of
Clariel being pursued had nothing to do with her being pursued romantically or sexually.
R: True it…
N: ...And…
R: ...was just literally being chased in the streets.
N: Right, and - and like if you're gonna pick again kind of on that scale of - of things that can traumatize your reader, they picked the one that is the least, I would say prevalent to current day. Being…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...being chased for political power is the least - is the least, uh…
R: ...Well, okay…
N: ...of the - of the…
R: ...we’re talking…
N: ...options that they could have, they could have put in there.
R: Right.
N: Um, I would say that that was…
R: ...OH…
N: ...that was the one that was chosen to be highlighted with the most um, descriptive text and the most things happening that - that could be traumatising…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ... and that was the one that is least likely to - to hit a modern day reader. It - it was definitely - definitely treated with care, and definitely I think chosen very deliberately on what the author did and did not highlight…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...and I think it was done very well.
N: Point of view, uh Aziminil, point of view…
R: ...It’s…
N: ...trauma and aftermath is just Clariel.
R: Yeah, and that's part of the point because Aziminil is such a strange and different creature on purpose…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...that I don't think we would have been able to empathize with her because if it had been “Boy being stuck in this bottle keeps me from murdering everyone,” that's a little bit harder...
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...to empathize with and so...
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...having it through Clariel, uh, allows us to see her as a character and for us to think of having her for the spotlight.
N: Yeah, um and - and also I will say with that like, because this is Clairel’s book and this is Clairel’s point of view, uh, pretty much everything, I think we only get this one little snippet of a chapter where we - we swap over to somebody else, um…
R: ...We followed Beltiel a little.
N: A little but it's - that's not very much and it's only when Clairel isn't there.
R: Right.
N: Like specifically we need to know that Bel has found X Y Z and is doing these things and so we jump over to him but that -that's it…
R: ...And Clariel was with him at the beginning…
N: ...for the scene …
R: ...but yeah. Just …
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...super minor stuff.
N: Yeah but it's like - it's like, world set up and like fleshing out the story, it's not like, the plot, um.
R: Yeah, so in terms of talking about point of view if 95% of the book is Clariel’s point of view the…
N: ...Right…
R: ...question is less “Why is Clariel the point of view?” and more “When she's not why…
N: ...Why…
R: ...is that?”
N: Right and - and also I think with Aziminil, um, I think it is really a question of - I think it is par - partly just keeping that whole - like you said, like she's not a human, um and [meow] - and I think it - it’s totally possible to write non-human characters and write them in a way that feels not human, but I think that part of Aziminil’s separateness from the characters that are human is that we don't see inside her head because she is not a hu - were - if we were to jump into her thoughts, they would be…
R: ...They would make her feel less of a creature…
N: ...more humanizing than seeing her through Clariel’s eyes.
R: Yeah.
N: Yeah, I think…
R: ...It would either be…
N: ...it would lose something…
R: ...too effective or too much and I think…
N: ...Right…
R: ...what was picked was good. Uh.
N: Right.
(51:18)
R: So Clairel’s abandonment.
N: We only ever see…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...Clariel really.
R: And you know with Clariel being pursued we pretty much only ever see Clariel and I think - I think that's fine. it's not like…
N: ...Yeah. This is a Clariel book about Clariel from…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...Clariel's point of view with Clariel’s…
R: ...Right, so then…
N: ....like…
R: ...it’s just…
N: ...like…
R: ...Clariel
N: That is what it is.
R: Yeah. [sighs]
N: Um, which is - which is a weird actual - uh, funny contrast because this - this is the first book of this series that we've had that’s really just one person's point of view.
R: Yeah.
N: Um, I mean even - even when we had - even when we were reading “Sabriel”, where Sabriel was like the only protagonist so far, um, uh, ‘cause like “Abhorsen” and - and “Lirael” are literally split between…
R: ...Right…
N: ...Sam and Lirael, um, but “Sabriel” is like even though it's - it's like just her. It's not. We get Mogget, we get uh, Touchstone sometimes. We get - we get a couple other people like, it's not - it's not even close to 50/50 the way “Lirael” and “Abhorsen” are but, it - it - it's definitely not a single point of view story at all, and - and Clariel is the first one that really feels like that. Uh, I - I would actually - I would argue - I'm trying to - I would argue it's the only one in this series that feels like that, because the fifth book also is very much a split book from point of view, perspective, and you know, so, that is kind of - just kind of how it's set up.
R: Yeah
(52:53)
R: Alright, do we have an aspiring writer tip?
N: Aspiring writer tip. [sighs] I mean you mentioned that in your point of view, Clariel would not make sense without the other books.
R: Yeah.
N: Like it would not work as a standalone novel?
R: It wouldn't. I mean it - it wouldn't even be fixed by having two chapters with backstory about how the Old Kingdom works.
N: No.
R: ‘Cause that's how “Sabriel” handled it.
N: Yep.
R: Um, so if “Clariel” had gotten those chapters instead of “Sabriel” it still wouldn't save this book, uh…
N: [exhales] ...so…
R: ...as potential…
N: ...okay so I get…
R: ...to be stand alone…
N: ...but on the other hand where it is in the story is pretty crucial.
R: No, it's - it's placed - it's placed well but here’s - here's what it does, it means that we don't need to spend two chapters of backstory in uh, “Goldenhand”.
N: You just wanted two chapters of Clariel instead of a whole book.
R: Yeah...
N: Oh, uh, okay. So…
R: ...because…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...like, they tell, like, tales about the other Abhorsens and like Mogget’s really good at summarizing and just like, Mogget being witty and summarizing what happened with Clariel…
N: [laughs]
R: ... like you know…
N: ... That would not be the same…
R: ...that would be good…
N: ...story at all.
R: It - it wouldn't, it…
N: ...Mogget wouldn't tell us the same story. [laughs]
R: No, no he wouldn't but I’d like it…
N: ...That wouldn't serve Mogget’s purposes. [laughs]
R: [laughs] no, but like, it wouldn't have to be Mogget, I mean I'm just saying Mogget ‘cause he was there…
N: ...Mogget…
R: ...Uh…
N: ...was there…
R: ...uh…
N: ...Mogget would be the only one. okay here's - here's what - here's what we'll say, aspiring writer tip, just be aware that not every reader will experience the book the way you want them to.
R: Yeah, and just because it's a prequel doesn't mean that all the heavy lifting is already done.
N: [laughs] okay that's fair. Uh, I personally love this book…
R: ….If you’re a prequel…
N: ...and I would've read it as a standalone book and been very happy.
R: Nah.
N: But that's okay. Um…
R: ...I mean, but I’m…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...a little…
N: ...Aspiring writer tip, just you know. Be aware…
R: ...there - there’s a…
N: ...that it’s ok…
R: ...series that I've read where…
N: ...that not everyone likes it…
R: ...the prequel was done so well that you could literally read it as the first book or the last book. it was a whole gimmick in this series and it was really well done.
N: Hmm.
R: Uh.
N: Okay.
R: Um, I'll talk to you about it later but…
N: ...okay…
R: ...um, it [sighs] - maybe having had that at some point spoiled me…
N: [laughs]
R: ...a bit for this because it was like, I couldn't read this and enjoy it on its own…
N: ...Ah…
R: ...and now that I've read the other ones I don't need this one?
N: Oof. Ow.
R: ...like, yeah. Like I'm - I’m 80% of the way through “Goldenhand”, I didn't need “Clariel”.
N: I did.
R: I didn't, I…
N: I did.
(55:43)
R: A favorite non-traumatic thing about the book. Favorite…
N: ...I’ve got…
R: ...any favorite anything…
N: ...mine.
R: [laughs]
N: I’ve got mine.
R: What’s yours?
N: Mogget. [laughs]
R: I feel like it's cheating to say Mogget every time though.
N: I haven't said Mogget before.
R: You haven't?
N: You did, I think.
R: Okay.
N: I think.
R: Alright.
N: Unless that was me.
R: One of us has said Mogget. Mogget’s great.
N: Mogget is not the same in this book as he was in the other books.
R: That's true.
N: Um, Mogget - Mogget is my favorite form - version of himself [laughs] in “Clariel”. I, uh, [sighs]. He's just so subtle. It's beautiful, he's subtle with purpose. He's not just killing time. He's not just waiting around until he gets told what to do. He is affecting events and - and he's not doing it to save the world. He's doing it for his own actual agenda, and…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...he just - he's - he's more powerful than the other two Free Magic creatures but he's not in charge, visibly.
R: Doesn't need to be.
N: Doesn't need to be. I - I - I - I like it. I want - I wouldn - I would read, I don't think Garth Nix would ever do this just because, well I don't have any way of saying that he would or wouldn't but, I would read an entire anthology of Mogget’s perspective and how he lives his life from the beginning of history up through “Goldenhand”.
R: Yep.
N: I want Moggot’s machinations and perspectives, and, just calculations. Um, [sighs] man, Mogget is my favorite, um, just in general. Um, but - but especially in this book like I said. He's my - he's my favorite version of himself in “Clariel”. I don't know what it says about me that the book where he has the most free will to be manipulative is my favorite but like, I like it.
R: Alright. Nontraumatic - I don't know if I go with favorite. non traumatic things I liked…
N: [laughs] ...Nontraumatic thing that you didn't hate. [laughs]
R: Yeah, non traumatic thing that I didn't hate…
N: ..Okay…
R: ...in this book, uh, the use of the word “inimical”.
N: [laughs] And you picked that word how?
R: That was great, uh.
N: Okay.
R: But then also - also um, the like….
N: ...I’m - I'm sorry, I'm gonna need more than just a vocabulary word, for me.
R: [laughs] You don’t like the word…
N: ...Go ahead…
R: …:inimical” is not, “inimical” is enough.
N: No.
R: Just, [sighs].
N: No.
R: I knew the word but I just never get to see it and so it was nice.
N: [laughs] It just made you happy.
R: It just made - it's like, yeah amancall to human life, such a beautiful phrase. Um.
N: [laughs]
R: Anyway, so, the Abhorsens, they were like, “You know what? These stepping stones are awkward, we're gonna build a bridge,”
N: Ha. Yes.
R: Uh, “You mean the stepping…
N: ...That’s literally…
R: ...stones…
N: ...like - that’s literally…
R: ...that are awkward on purpose…
N: ...like, man...
R: ...and the dead can't cross?” It's like, “Wow you are not doing your job…
N: ...It’s - it’s…
R: ...and you don’t remember…
N: ...literally someone…
R: ...what your job is…
N: ...living in an evil castle going, “Man this moat with the alligators is really annoying. I think I'm just gonna build a nice slide over it.” [laughs]
(59:30)
R: Oh. [sighs]
N: “All around, 360 degrees,” like [inhales} “oh, we're just gonna build some rope ladders.”
R: You - you know I lived in a place where they didn't realize they had a septic tank and they put a concrete porch over it?
N: I, did not realize that. That is…
R: That was the last place I lived.
N: Oh boy.
R: Yeah, when I lived there…
N: ...That sounds fun…
R: ...they had torn down the porch right before we moved in because they needed to deal with the septic tank and didn't know…
N: ...Oh my god…
R: ...it was there for 30 to 40 years. yep, yep fun things. Uh, people…
N: ...Oh boy…
R: ...do weird architecture things that - without - anyway. Um.
N: Weird architecture without thought of consequences or repercussions is very…
R: ...Yep, yep…
N: ...amusing
R: But yeah, with this bridge, they just like built over it. It's like “Ah, the stepping stones, it's too easy for someone to not be swept away by rushing water if they're dead. Um…
N: ...Yeah, “it's too - it’s…
R: ...we should…
N: ...it’s too difficult…
R: ...we should cover it…
N: ...for the dead to invade our home,”
R: Yeah.
N: “Let's fix it.”
R: “Oh, and you know what? The rest of the house, it's hard for us to mess that up so let's just build like uh, a town.
N: [laughs] Ha. Let’s just build a town…
R: ...unprotected…
N: ...so we never have to touch the house that's built for protection,” yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: [laughs]
R: “And hunting.”
N: Yeah.
R: “Let’s just hunt. you know what...
N: ...that’s all we care…
R: ...let’s do…
N: ...about now…
R: ...let’s do near the house that’s a refuge from the dead? Go and kill... stuff, constantly.”
N: Yeah.
R: Like, not that you can't be an Abhorsen and kill animals for food, but having is your pastime killing things while refusing to go into death…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...Oh [sighs]. Alright.
N: Yeah, that’s some…
R: ...So I think…
N: ...very, very amusing uh, terrifying juxtaposition there. [laughs]
R: Yeah.
N: It's very funny.
Outro: Begins at 1:01:33.
N: Alright.
R: I think that's it. Uh.
N: It’s up to you.
R: Thank you for joining us and we'll see…
N: [laughs]
R: ...you next time for “Goldenhand”.
N: For “Goldenhand” which Robin will enjoy much better.
R: I like it much better. It's not nostalgic because of course I didn't first read it in middle school, because it wasn't out, but it is good. I do like it, I need to get the rest of the 20% through it. Uh, I read 80% of it in one day sitting on my bed and then I gotta finish the other 20%.
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R: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).
N: ...email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.
R: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.
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R: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.
N: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.