Goldenhand
Series 1 Episode 5
Book 5 of The Old Kingdom Series by Garth Nix
("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)
Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.
From the Show Notes...
Our fifth episode is about the book Goldenhand, book five in the Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix.
Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)
N: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.
[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]
Musical Interlude (0:23-0:55)
Announcement (0:55)
N: Hey everybody, unfortunately this week we only have two out of three recorded topics for you. Our overview at the end does cover all three of the ones that we had originally recorded, but we had a problem with our audio for our first topic not syncing up, and I have put in multiple hours of editing to try and make all of our things that we've said makes sense as - uh - to - [meow] enough to be in the episode and it is just not coming together. If I manage to fix it in the future we will probably release it as like bonus content on our patreon. We'll be back next time with all three topics and you should be good to go. Thank you very much for your understanding.
Topic 1:
N: Uh, so Ferin, uh, is part of the Athask people, and she - there's multiple times in her scenes in the book where we see her take an - an injury and essentially do her best to either ignore it because other things are more important, or deliberately not show how bad it is. This actually works to her disadvantage, because there's a couple of times where her injuries, if they were taken more seriously immediately could have actually getted her - wow, gotten her [laughs] uh, the help that she - she needs faster. Um, I'm specifically thinking about if uh, if the fisher - the fisherman had known how bad her ankle was, uh, there's one point where like her ankle - she's been walking on a broken ankle for like, what? 12 hours or something?
R: Uh, I mean it was hit by a crossbow bolt so I'm gonna say maybe not…
N: ...oh maybe not…
R: ...broken, but…
N: ...broken, just…
R: ...still…
N: ...that it was definitely infected. It was swelling, it was - it was not - [sighs] not okay, and she, uh the - the - the people who picked her up, uh, out of her makeshift raft, on their own boat they looked at her and said, “Clearly you're injured. We think it'll be fine. We want to get our fish in for the day. We understand you're being pursued, but you seem to have lost them,” you know, “We'll get our fish then we'll take you to our village,” and they thought that would have been fine. But then there's a point in the book, so the - the people pursuing her catch up, but then there's there's a point after they've - they're kind of trying to outrun her pursuers, where the people on the boat realizes how bad her ankle is, and they kind of talk to each other like, “Oh if we had known, we would not have waited,” and you know that's - that's kind of a pretty big deal. It - it deliberate - it actually affects her - her health and her life. It's put on the path to healing, slightly later in the story, um, and she's told, you know “Don't stress it. Don't walk it - if you walk or run, if you have to like, be very, very careful or you'll lose your leg,” and she say, “Okay, but realize I will do what I have to,” and does not even attempt to avoid - avoid or mitigate stress on it in any way and she does end up actually losing her foot. Um, there's nothing that they can do.
R: ‘Cause it was, to her, more important to get this message…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...than to worry about her foot.
N: And it is important to note here that she is being magically pursued. This is not a - this is not completely a case of just deliberately endangering her health. Like, she - there are legitimate reasons where she needs to not stop and keep moving, and keep running and, go on that dangerous path to pull them away from the kid. Like there's - there's legitimate reasons for what she does - the way she does what she does, but the thing that we're kind of looking at here is, all of those things are totally things that she could have accomplished while also saying “I am in pain. This is something that's happening to me. Please look at my ankle while I'm on your boat and please get me to land now! Please don't wait,” and she instead goes, “Okay, after the day is over.”
(5:02)
R: And when she is explicitly asked like, “How's your pain?” or like…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...you know, “Do you feel sick?” um.
N: Yeah, multiple times.
R: Yeah, she plays it off, or you know.
N: Yeah, she doesn't even play it off. She just - she doesn’t even play. She just says, “I'm - I’m okay,” and it's not - it's not a ploy. She legitimately looks at herself and says, “This is fine.” [laughs]
R: Well, I don't - I don’t know. Let me - because there's a bit where Sabriel asks, you know, “Is the pain bearable,” and she says “The pain is nothing to be asked,” she paused and then added more truthfully, but there is less than there was.
N: That is true. There is that - that's true. There is that moment…
R: ...We definitely get in the text there being a difference between how she feels and the cultural expectation…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...to not say that you're hurt. It's not like she feels less pain, it is that culturally she doesn't express it.
N: Right. Right, right, right. She's not ignoring it. She is deliberately not…
R: ...Not passing on it - she's not passing the knowledge of it on to anyone else.
N: Right, um, and I just wanna pull back to something we were - Robin said uh, before we started recording, uh, so we - uh, we write out our own like, shorthand notes for what we're going to talk about. We don't totally go into this unprepared…
R: ...Mmhmm…
N: ...you know, and I had started the notes before Robin got here, uh and I had written for this section “Ferin treating physical pain and injury as something to be endured without visible signs of distress” and that description of it, uh, what did - what did you say Robin?
R: I said next time just @ me, like…
N: [laughs] And it - it's funny because, I also do this.
R: What we're trying to get at is we have a specific perspective -prospec - specific perspective on this being a sign of trauma in a particular way, whereas I don't - don't know how obvious this would be, and if you're feeling like “This doesn't seem like something to talk about in your book about trauma,” our point isn't that she's very stoic or something.
N: No.
R: The point is that when you have a message, your entire - the - the reaction of “My pain doesn't matter, it is literally less important than anything else, and if I'm asked it's like, oh yeah I guess that is there,” it's just - it's - it's um - it's not necessarily that the specific pain that she's ignoring is the trauma…
N: Mmm…
R: ...but there is that as well in these books, but also just the implied… [sighs] This is one where it’s like it's hard to untangle like how much is implied by the author, and how much it’s like, “Oh this is the thing…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...The stoicism is a thing,” but for us it implies this weight of - of years of it not being taken seriously.
N: Well, and - and…
R: ...Because they…
N: ...more than just not…
R: ...cultural…
N: ...taken seriously, yeah.
R: Like, cultural, like not allowed to talk about it, and that, not being able to talk about things hurting, that is - that is a kind of trauma.
N: Yes.
R: So we just, you know since this was like a little bit of a weird one, we wanted to go ahead and say “Hey, like no that’s - that's totally a thing. It's definitely a thing,” and it's, you know she describes it as being a cultural norm, and we don't get specific evidence of that other than her saying…
(8:40)
N: …Mmhmm…
R: ...but taken writ large, we have an entire people where you know, don't discuss or show pain and it's just - just moving on and it - it's again her - or - her - we’re about to get into her growing up and how it was different from other people in her tribe, so it is - it is hard to know if it was this extreme for other Athask or whether the severity of it a little bit more just on her. Um.
N: And - and it's - it's also I - I just one - one final think - I guess that with that is it's very comparable to say, and again we're gonna get into this in a second, but it's very comparable to say that the - her upbringing makes it more important that she doesn't show anything negative about herself including pain…
R: ...Right…
N: ...and also - also when she says it's cultural I think it's important to note that there is a lot of trauma inflicted on people that is cultural.
R: Right.
N: And - and sometimes that trauma is that being cultural is as simple as - I mean there's, you know we’re - we’re - we're - we live in the U.S. We're Americans. There are certain, uh, subsets of culture in America that stress self sacrifice or that your pain is unimportant because you can't inconvenience other people or you're not taken seriously.
R: And we say subset, we mean anything from a household to a cultural group, just like it's…
N: ...Yeah. And - and sometimes it's the culture at large, looks at certain minorities and says “Your pain is less important.” It - it can be - it can be as small as a family it can be - it is as big as the country targeting individuals, and so we definitely think…
R: ...Just because the trauma’s cultural doesn't mean it's not trauma.
N: Yes, yeah and the two…
R: ...You can have family…
N: ...are not mutually…
R: ...as the example of that…
N: ...exclusive. Yeah, the two are not mutually exclusive at all.
Topic 2:
N: Okay so moving on to Ferin as the offering. Uh, let's talk about her name. Ferin doesn't have a name.
R: According to her people she doesn't have a name. She doesn't get to have one. She informally got the nickname, it sounds like from like a cousin or a childhood friend or something.
N: Well, she didn't have…
R: ...Uh…
N: ...friends, this was a cousin who was a child.
R: Sorry, a cousin who was a child, uh called her “Ferin” which was a corruption of the word “offering” and she is meant to be a perfect example of the tribe, a perfect physical specimen, just totally ready, like able to be a warrior so that when Chlorr needs a new body she can be killed and become Chlorrs new body. I'm not sure if she gets killed or exactly how that works but her individuality would be gone.
N: Yeah.
R: Yeah.
N: I mean I figure it's kind of like the free spirit battle that we get a set up for in “Clariel” where whoever wins is in charge but like, none of the offerings are gonna beat Chlorr in a - in a…
R: ...Right…
N: ...in a willpower face-off.
R: And she is supposed to be dead because after Chlorr - basic - the reason I don't think they get physically killed is because Chlorr got physically killed, came back as a Greater Dead spirit.
N: Oh yeah. No there - there - I…
R: ...Right…
N: ...don’t think…
R: ...and so…
N: ...that they’re…
R: ...now she no longer - now she no longer can use all those - all those other offerings, Ferin is not the only one. Every tribe had to have one.
N: Well it's - it's also specifically stated that the bodies age and then decay, and we've also kind of seen that when dead spirits take over dead bodies, those bodies decay incredibly rapidly even when the spirit is not super powerful, and when they are super powerful it's worse. They're - they're not lasting for twenty years, and - and Chlorr’s bodies are.
R: Right, yep. So anyway take it over, dependent - how literally dead they are in these books is something it doesn't go into, I mean we've got like nine gates of Death so there's a lot of ways to be dead without being dead.
N: That's true.
R: [laughs] Being in death without being dead.
N: [laughs]
R: Um, but anyway so when Chlorr can't use these bodies anymore, uh, all the tribes are directed to kill their offerings and Ferin, her tribe doesn't kill her and they send her with this message and that's the thing she's gotta deliver, and that's what she - you know it's more important than her foot, and you know the stuff that we discussed earlier.
(13:29)
Um, she grows up to be a sacrifice to be killed…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...and I think it ties into and [exacerbates] the cultural pressure that pain doesn't matter that we discussed…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...earlier, but like she's got stuff above and beyond the rest of her tribe because she - she has to be perfect but she doesn't get to benefit from it, if that makes sense. I know that…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...probably sounds a little like weird or selfish or something but it's like…
N: ...it’s true though. [laughs]
R: Yeah, like if it - normally if someone like, gets to be super awesome at a thing, hopefully it’s ‘cause they like it and they at least get the benefits of being good at it if there are benefits to be had. She specifically, like, doesn't…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...like she has to be like, strong and good at archery or whatever so that when Chlorr uses her body Chlorr is strong and can do whatever physically. Do you have more thoughts with this?
N: I just, I think that - yes. [laughs] Um, I think a big part of this trauma - I mean all of the trauma ‘cause they can't harm her body, it has to be perfect, it's all very psychological and I think the - it's important that she - she has no identity. Her whole identity is to die for her people, and I think that it's especially - I mean there's - there's a - there's a million examples of what happens when you're not allowed to have an identity or you’re or even just…
R: ...Mmmm…
N: ...you're not allowed to identify with something that is true about you and so we see - never just like straight out, but there's very much evidence to support in the book that Ferin sees herself as a sacrifice, and, kind of as we discussed in our - our second topic it drive - she sees herself as a sacrifice so much to the point that losing her foot is fine, because if she did it for her people then it's okay.
R: Right.
N: She would have lost her whole body, what is a foot compared to her life? I actually think it's really cool - so this was something that - again we kind of - kind of talked about this ahead of time but we didn't talk about this related to this topic, Robin just kind of mentioned it, Ferin actually ends the book interested in Sam, potentially romantically.
R: Oh, not but - no. Okay - okay to be clear, because I don't know if you missed this, they are going to do it. They are…
N: ...Oh no they are...
R: ...they are going to do…
N: ...but that’s…
R: ...it within ten minutes of the book being over.
N: [laughs]
R: Like…
N: ...but…
R: [laughs]
N: ...my - my point is my point is like, Ferin has nothing that is for her, and in the book she gets a rom - a - a potential romantic partner. I say potential because I’m not aquating romance to sex.
(16:26)
R: Okay true.
N: But - and - and also potential romantic partner implies long-term and not…
R: ...Ok…
N: ...just “Oo…
R: ...she’s…
N: ...you’re hot…
R: ...been giving signs - she's been giving signs that she likes him on more than just a sexual level.
N: That's fine…
R: ...They were there…
N: ...that’s fine…
R: ...but…
N: ...but like - but I'm saying like as far as like - that's the kind of thing that people do when they see a future for themselves and they expect to…
R: ...Ooo…
N: ...live.
R: Okay, okay. Yeah.
N: Her whole life…
R: ...If she didn’t see a future for herself she would have tried to do it the night before the big battle.
N: [laughs]
R: She does…
N: ...Yes…
R: ...see a future and so she wants to do it after.
N: And - and not only that, like she wants to live. She cares about living, she cares about existing after whatever, and - and that's something that her entire life she has been told is not [a] goal - is not for her. She will be - she will be hopefully chosen by Chlorr and until then she sits around and waits. [laughs] Um, and I - I just think it's really important to highlight that she doesn't end the book in suffering, she ends the book making decisions about things that she wants that implies that she expects to be around for a long time and that's important. Um, Ferin is self sacrificial, not suicidal and I think it matters, basically.
R: Okay, yeah that - that difference. She doesn't want to die, she just didn't think she was going to get to live.
N: Yes, there we go. That's the summary that I was looking for where it's for. So yeah, that's - I think that that - I think that matters.
Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (18:03).
N: Welcome to our wrap up and ratings. Let's get into it.
R: Gratuity. Alright, Mogget, backstory, off screen and a little bit mild.
N: I would go…
R: ...or is it backstory, off screen and severe?
N: Um...
R: It could also go that way.
N: We have to go with what is physically in the book and the severe things are not physically in…
R: ...that's true…
N: ...the book.
R: Okay.
N: So backstory, offscreen for sure.
R: Mmmhmm.
N: But imprison - enslavement is not mild is the problem.
R: That's why I was saying severe.
N: Okay. Alright, alright.
R: Right.
N: Alright.
R: It’s either backstory, off screen or you have no free will and you - we watch him…
N: [laughs]
R: ...struggle with trying, like he hasn't even…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...to get to look like what he wants to look like.
N: Okay…
R: ...We…
N: ... yeah…
R: ...mentioned that he…
N: ...that’s - that’s severe…
R: ...has two main forms…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...the cat and um, gonna use the term from the book, it's an albino dwarf, that's how it’s…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...said in the book so [sighs] - and it's hard to know whether that means fantasy dwarf or what we might more appropriately call a little person. I don't know, the book literally says “albino dwarf”, but anyway…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...he - he - that form was forbidden to him, and in order for him to use it the Abhorsen has to get him specific permission to get to use it in front of them.
N: Mmhmm.
R: And there's something about Sabriel only having let him do that like a couple of times…
N: ...Mmhmm...
R: ...so - I mean he eats fish in both forms, like we don't have any doubt about him. It's not like he's coerced into liking fish or something but I think his love for fish is the only like genuine thing that is him that we get in the books, and it's hard to even know how much of that is, he just - we don't know how that started, we don't know how far back he likes it, we just know at the point that we meet him…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...that he likes fish, is the most genuine expression we get.
N: Yeah.
R: And then his - he spends you know, four books with his will being subsumed, so you know.
N: Okay, so yeah severe.
N: Moving on to Ferin.
R: I would say [sighs] this one's a little bit tricky because it's - the description is mild but if that’s a thing…
N: ...yeah…
R: ...resonates with you it'll - it'll hit hard.
N: Yes.
R: So it's - it's mild and then…
N: ...It’s not moderate…
R: ...it flipped…
N: It’s either…
R: ...Right…
N: ...it’s not moderate. It's either mild or severe depending on your reading of it, but it's written to be mild.
R: It's written to be mild but if it resonates it's gonna suck, so.
N: [laughs] Yeah, my - my description of it hit Robin [laughs].
R: Yeah.
N: [laughs] Like.
R: Um, yeah it - just having that summarized that way. [sighs]
(21:00)
R: And Ferin growing up to be sacrificed, I would say [sighs].
N: I'd say it's kind of the same.
R: Yeah, backstory and moderate because…
N: ...Oh yeah…
R: ...It’s -it's definitely backstory….
N: ..Yeah...
R: ...and then we mostly see like the impact of that, like…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...it’s - it’s like in the name…
N: ...Yeh we don’t see it.
R: Right, we - but we see the effects and the effects are moderate. They're - they're pervasive, they totally affect her.
N: Mmhmm.
R: It’s - it's every time she says her name, like…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...it's - it's right there…
N: ...her…
R: ...now…
N: …”name”…
R: I don't think that this is - I don't think it's gonna traumatize a reader but if you’re…
N: ...no…
R: ...someone who is - has to be the shining example of your family, it's probably gonna resonate.
N: Mmhmm.
R: [sighs] Like…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...again it's a magical analog but this one there's not a whole lot of magic involved and so it's - it’s pretty close. Um, hopefully you're not, you know, gonna be sacrificed to a witch when you turn twenty or something. [laughs]
N: [laughs] Yeah. Like, that's - that's hopefully not something that will resonate but you never know. Um, moving on…
R: ...Uh, if it does…
N: ...to…
R: ...please let us know. We'll get you a helpline. Um [laughs].
N: [laughs] Yeah, we’ve got resources for you.
N: Why this trauma, Mogget it - is integral. He is - like his - his - it's not replaceable. Um, it's not irrelevant.
R: Yep, the most you could do is have it be expressed in different ways but the underlying trauma that runs through the book is consistent. Like it - it wouldn't have had to have been that a form is prohibited to him, it could have been something…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...else…
N: ...there could have been other things, but like if he wasn't there these books would not have happened.
R: Yeah, but not the bore of it.
N: Right. Ferin's physical suffering and ignoring it. This is also - see I feel like…
R: ...It's not integral.
N: It's not - it's not…
R: ...It's - it's the meet-cute, um.
N: What? [laughs] How?
R: Wait - wait do you know what a meet-cute?
N: I do but I don't understand…
R: ...Right…
N: ...how you think it's that.
R: She has to lose her foot so that she and Sam can spend…
N: ...No Robin…
R: ...hours __ together…
N: ...that’s not - we’re not - this is not a podcast about the romance in the books.
R: [laughs]
N: Excuse you.
R: I feel like - feel like I need one where Heather and I talk about the romance in all the books, and then you can talk about [laughs]...
N: [laughs]
R: ...about all the [laughs].
N: I’ll - I’ll come on as a guest and just be confused the whole time. It'll be great.
R: Yeah, but so what I'm saying - that…
N: ...I'll just say I'm…
R: ...Okay, that part…
N: ...sorry…
R: ...I mean…
N: ...I wasn't reading…
R: ...is…
N: ...it correctly - eh - the…
R: ...part of…
N: ...every ten…
R: ...what I mean is…
N: ...minutes…
R: ...interchangeable, because it is…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...relevant to the plot but in a way where that didn't have to be - she didn't have to lose her foot, but…
N: ...Uh…
R: ...the reason she loses her…
N: ...Okay…
R: ...foot is so that she could spend a bunch of time with Sam.
N: Hi cat. Um, no Robin that's not why…
R: ...Yes…
N: ...that happened.
R: Then - I…
N: ...No. [laughs]
R: Niki, that's…
N: ...I disagree.
R: I feel like - you missed major…
N: ...Okay, let me…
R: ...plot points…
N: ...gimme…
R: ...if you don't think that's why.
N: [laughs] I - I don't think Garth Nix is that kind of author, excuse me.
R: Uh, hey.
N: I disagree.
R: Mmmm. Ah.
N: No okay. Let me - let me pull it back in and - and point out something else though.
R: Uhuh.
N: You're focusing on the foot. We are talking about all of the physical suffering that she ignored; hunger, drought, uh exhaustion, yes being attacked being hit by arrows, not just in the foot, um...
R: ...Mmm...
N: ...undead coming after her, uh climbing up that shale and could have died at literally any second and also like, is getting cut up by rocks and blasted by fireball and she just moves on.
R: What I would say is...
N: ...This is - this is not…
R: ...in general idea…
N: ...about the foot [laughs].
R: Uh, okay. My [sighs] - alright…
N: [laughs]
R: ...I was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. My point with the foot is the general shape is integral, the details are interchangeable, that was my point.
N: Okay, I - yes. I do agree with you there, I just want to - I - I know that you're being kind of tongue-in-cheek, I just want to make sure our listeners realize that like, especially the listeners who didn't listen to that part and skip to our ratings, that it's not…
R: ...Uhuh…
N: ...just about a foot. It is about all of this stuff.
R: Yeah, it’s a lot of stuff but the details could have been swapped out without it changing the general picture.
N: Okay…
R: ...But…
N: ...yes…
R: ...you do in general…
N: ...I get that…
R: ...need that picture for the story.
N: Yeah. I - I…
R: ...And…
N: ...concur…
R: ...I was just saying…
N: [laughs]
R: ...that the most severe of those things, even the most severe of them for…
N: ...even though…
R: ...this section could have been swapped out…
N: ...Okay, that…
R: ...because…
N: ...yeah…
R: ...the reason she loses a limb is…
N: [laughs]
R: ...so that he could make her a limb so that they could…
N: [sighs]
R: ...spend much time together in a romance implied after the book, like that…
N: ...Okay…
R: ...I…
N: …[laughs] Alright [laughs]...
R: ...They’ve - they've been - “Sam…
N: ...I’m not saying…
R: ...doesn't have…
N: ...you’re wrong...
R: ...anybody…
N: ...I just…
R: ...Sam needs a relationship.” They've been doing that since “Lirael”. It's like this - for me this arc has been building for like…
N: ...I mean…
R: ...three…
N: ...I…
R: ...books ‘cause it doesn't build…
N: [laughs]
R: ...at all in - in “Clariel”.
N: I'm not - I'm not saying that that is wrong, I'm just saying…
R: [laughs]
N: ...that I don't think that's why she lost the foot, that's all.
R: Okay.
N: I - hold on one second. [meow] Alright, okay, anyways, moving on.
R: Alright.
(26:26)
R: And then growing up to be sacrificed is integral to the plot.
N: Absolutely integral, not irreplaceable…
R: ...Now…
N: ...not interchangeable…
R: ...the change could have been she didn't have to be the one who was supposed to be the sacrifice.
N: Yeah but that would change…
R: ...but…
N: ...the story.
R: Oh yeah that would change so many…
N: ...No that would…
R: ...implications…
N: ...that would not - Robin…
R: ...Mmmhmm…
N: ...I might argue that that is wrong…
R: ...Oh okay…
N: ...because she had the charm literally buried in her body as a sacrifice as an offering…
R: ...Oh that’s how…
N: ...that was how they…
R: ...found…
N: ...found Chlorr. It could not have happened with anyone else.
R: I forgot about that, yeah that's how they found Chlorr, so okay.
N: Yeah.
R: It had to be her. The amount to which it's interchangeable is it didn't have to be her of all the people, but you know, that it needed to be one of the people who are supposed to be Chlorr’s body.
N: I mean you could have - it could have been a different offering…
R: ...Yeah, that’s…
N: ...but…
R: ...and that’s the degree of interchangeability which is not a lot.
N: That's not really…
R: ...Okay…
N: ...interchangeable, that's just putting different characteristics on a character.
R: Yeah. Alright, was the trauma treated with care. Uh, in general, yeah - yes? Not…
N: ...Mogget I would say treated with um, gentle kid gloves soaked in Clorox so the blood doesn't stick.
R: Yeah, like…
N: ...Um…
R: ...delicately, just like - just like little drips of like…
N: ...It’s not [sighs] yeah.
R: ...of like - I don't know. Just kind of the way if you're, like, trying to, you know figure out if it's cool to talk about something stressful with people, you just like drop in just like a comment about like a thing and then how much…
N: [laughs]
R: ...they jump tells you whether you can say more things. That…
N: ...Mmmm, mmhmm, mmhmm…
R: ...is what's happening in these books with…
N: ...and - and…
R: ...Mogget…
N: ...to be clear not happenings from Mogget, happening with the author. The author…
R: ...Right, from the author…
N: ...is subtly dripping pieces in the conversation that we are having as a reader, uh with him through the book and saying “[possibly flirty lip noise]...Hey...”
R: Yeah, so it's - it's done artfully. It's done…
N: ...Oh it's done…
R: ...yeah…
N: ...very tastefully.
R: Yeah
(28:33)
R: Uh.
N: Okay.
R: Ferin. I don't feel like it's extreme with Ferin, um with the physical pain and injury thing. That…
N: ...It’s pretty stark…
R: ...it’s very…
N: ...pretty boring.
R: Yeah it's - yeah.
N: I - I…
R: …’Cause I think…
N: ...think it’s necessarily blunt, and it's not graphic is the other thing.
R: Oh sure, not graphic, um.
N: But I don't think - I think the lack of care there was intentional and necessary, but I also - a - actually I'm gonna say - I'm gonna say enough, because it was not graphic, it was not written in a traumatizing way for a reader but it was definitely written, without any extra care, but I - but again like I think that was necessary. I think that the impact and the understanding of exactly what it is that's happening would not have been there…
R: ...Right…
N: ...if it had been treated with more care. Uh.
R: Growing up to be sacrificed. That - that - again I would think that's enough…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...because it's such like - [sighs] it's such like a big idea in the book…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...that talking about it less doesn't work. It wasn't talked about…
N: ...and - and…
R: ...from the point of view…
N: ...talking about it less…
R: ...of overkill…
N: ...explicitly also doesn't work.
R: Right, yeah you need, like, “Here's why someone would keep going even after they lost a foot.”
N: [laughs]
R: “Get this message,” because not giving the message is worse.
(30:01)
R: Alright point of view.
N: Point of view of the trauma.
R: We never get it through Mogget’s eyes.
N: We do!
R: We always - nah.
N: Don’t we in “Clairel”?
R: No, we…
N: ...A little bit?
R: ...see Clariel seeing Mogget. We never get like Mogget…
N: ...Oh right…
R: ...looking at Clariel.
N: [sighs] Oh, that’s right.
R: So what with Mogget what we get is different people seeing him in more and less constricted forms and - and modes, and Clariel feels like she sees the truest Mogget…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...but by the time we get that because of where Clariel is in the narrative versus the release order we've already…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...seen a different, truer Mogget and I feel like…
N: [sighs] ...Mmmm, mmhmm…
R: ...in those books back-to-back we get how Mogget was before he had somebody who cared about him as a friend, and this guy - I mean…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...Sam. We get Mogget before he has a friend and when he just has people he's manipulating and then we get him after he has a friend, but he's still like very much a cat about it…
N: [laughs]
R: ...because it's like - and because Sam's like “You didn’t help at all,” and he's like, “Eh? I helped a little, you know, don't - don't screw up the…
N: ...I help…
R: ...thing...
N: ...I helped enough…
R: ...and then he leaves.
N: This is fine,” [laughs]
R: Yeah.
N: “I did - I did my part, which was show up, eat a fish, yell…
R: [laughs]
N: ...at people and just throw them in the river,” but…
R: ...In this case he showed up, got mad about fish, and left, like.
N: [laughs]
R: It’s - it’s - it’s…
N: [laughs]
R: ...what he does. Also…
N: ...No…
R: ...this was one of his - [sighs] okay we'll talk about later.
N: No…
R: [sighs]
N: ...you keep going.
R: Um, nah I was gonna say that you know him - him having favourite rivers? Um.
N: Oh.
R: So, with the - yeah with the point of view, we get other people looking at him. Now…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...aftermath of this book is the aftermath of his trauma, and I’m really glad that he showed up so we get aftermath and we don't have the last thing being. Mogget be free. Oh, remember back..
N: ...Oh yeah…
R: ...when you weren’t free.”
N: “Remember back when you were treating people better, or worse I mean.”
R: [laughs] Yeah.
N: Yeah.
(32:16)
R: Uh, point of view for Ferin enduring things. We get her perspective. We get - we get her narration, we follow her pretty closely. The style….
N: ...I mean she’s the main character.
R: Yeah, I mean the style isn't first person.
N: Right.
R: But given how close it gets to her - the characters' heads, we - got - we got into her head, and I think it was well but minimally described and…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...yeah.
N: Yeah.
R: I don’t have a whole lot to say about that one.
R: Um, and then with growing up to be sacrificed, we kind of get other people reacting to the implications of knowing that this is a thing.
N: Yeah.
R: Like not a whole lot of time spent on “And how did that make you feel?”
N: [laughs] Accurate.
R: Yeah, I’m not gonna necessarily think that Ferin would have engaged in that but part of why she probably wouldn't have is because she doesn't think her life matters individually. So [sighs]. Uh, for that point of view it's definitely not quite her. Like - like she says it…
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...but when she says it she's not really concerned about her. She's concerned about, the witch with no face is doing these things. Oh and if you didn't read the book the witch with no face is what Ferin’s people call Chlorr of the mask.
N: That's just - that's - that's a pretty early on, that's not a spoiler at all, it's just like, the beginning. Alright so now…
R: ...Aspiring writer tip, do you have one?
N: Aspiring writer tip. I'm trying to think - it's hard when these books are so long - or I'm sorry when the series is so long to like, that's all the same…
R: ...I…
N: ...characters, it's not different people. Um.
R: Oh, okay, but then - but going off of that like, Mogget’s story gets told over the five books without ever having to have him as the point of view character.
N: That's true.
R: Okay, we…
N: ...and very well, very well…
R: ...We get a…
N: ...done…
R: ...bit where he like, tastes the Charter mark on Nick's forehead, like that is…
N: ...Was that him?
R: ...We have like - yeah.
N: I thought that was…
R: ...Oh, no, no no…
N: ...the dog…
R: ...that was the dog. You're right that was the dog, yeah we never…
N: …’cause…
R: ...we never get…
N: …’cause the dog…
R: ...Mogget’s perspective…
N: ...is the - is the Walker.
R: Yeah, we never get Mogget’s - we never get - we never really follow Mogget. The closest we come is we follow him for like 30 seconds before Nick finds him…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...or Sam finds him or somebody. Anyway, that’s…
N: ...Uh…
R: ...not in this book.
N: He finds Sam and Lirael?
R: [sighs] In “Abhorsen” when he's going through the woods and they’re at that battle? Anyway so, aspiring writer tip, don't... like - keep the plot threads of the minor characters.
N: Yeah! Don't let them get lost.
R: They’re not…
N: ...I like that as a writer, I like that as…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...our tip. Like if you…
R: ...Got…
N: ...have - you don't have to - I guess going off of that like you don't have to have them be the main character for their story to matter and get told.
R: Yeah, it's part of why we have our minor character spotlight.
N: Yeah, um and - and Mogget’s is just - and also you don't have to give away the story upfront. Um.
R: Mmhmm.
N: And we might want to make that our tip at a later time but I just…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...appreciate how…
R: ...Let’s talk about it later…
N: ... Mogget’s - Mogget’s story is actually told.
R: Mmhmm.
(35:16)
N: Um. Alright favorite non-traumatic thing about this book.
R: When like the bandolier shows up on Lirael’s chest and then Nick opens it.
N: [laughs]
R: Or when the pou - the extra pouch shows up and then Nick…
N: ...Oh…
R: ...opens it and…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...pulls the dog out by like her ear or something.
N: [laughs]
R: Like [laughs]
N: [laughs] I - yeah. I'm a fan of that.
R: Oh wait that pouch I hadn't - hadn't - we had earlier that Lirael had added that pouch so that the…
N: ...Yeah…
R: ...the statue could be there. Nick was just like “Bells, there's seven of them right? Why is there an eighth? What's going on?” So like…
N: ..Like, “Oh look…
R: ...the pouch doesn’t…
N: ...a bandolier..
R: ...appear but just…
N: ...No the pouch didn’t appear, but…
R: My favorite non-traumatic thing about the books, and, the series in general starting with “Lirael”...
N: ...Mmhmm…
R: ...is when the dog appears she's going in and out of being that sub stone statue.
N: Oh yeah, that's good.
R: And it's like it's always done in like some like weird, cool, way. Like she's grabbed by an ear and expands into a dog, just like…
N: ...Or she’s…
R: ...stuff like that.
N: Yeah.
R: Um.
N: Or she like…
R: ...It’s great…
N: ...squirms I think…
R: ...it’s fun…
N: ...out of Lirael’s coat on her own at one point? Oh…
R: ...Yeah…
N: ...no! Lirael had - had thought she was unsummoned forever. Lirael reaches into a pocket. It's so good.
R: Well she reached - she reached for like her clockwork mouse and she found the dog.
N: [laughs Yeah.
R: Or something.
N: Yeah [laughs]
R: Yeah. Like just - just…
N: ...Like, “Oh, what’s this?
R: ...how -how the dog just does that.
N: My favorite non-traumatic thing about this book, um? This book specifically, I mean I guess going back to Mogget I like that we see him free. I appreciate that I realized that I think Mogget has been my favorite thing in like three of these books, uh.
R: Mmhmm.
N: But also Mogget is my favorite character in general [laughs], and I don’t know. I appreciate that when I was in high school and the first three books were the only ones that existed, we didn't get this part, and I - I like it. Just I think like I said last time - last episode that we didn't get to see Mogget acting under his own power kind of which, we did in “Clariel” and so now we see him literally acting as his own agent under his own will, and that is definitely my favorite thing.
R: Yeah.
Outro: Begins at 38:06.
[Musical Interlude]
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