N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin.

N: And welcome to our first “Books That Burn” minisode. We have an unplanned segment for you today, because we originally had recorded this, and then we had some issues with our audio and so we are actually gonna rerecord it into a longer discussion.

R: [The] Book is "Goldenhand" by Garth Nix; the last book of the “Old Kingdom” series, specifically this is a rerecord of our minor character spotlight talking about Mogget. This is full of spoilers, because it is just the segment we lost, and not any of the spoiler free wrap-up and ratings. Those were in the main episode that's already out.

N: So, Mogget.

R: Mogget, is, awesome? And I constantly oscillate between feeling and not feeling like he deserves everything that's happening.

N: Mogget, in our - original episode I say this, Mogget is my favorite character, in this entire series.

R: Yeah, he's great.

N: He's very very funny, and, so, Mogget has an interesting history? Um, where, throughout kinda the books we kind of, you know, find more and more pieces, but he - he was enslaved. Um, from literally the, not - I don't want to say like the beginning of the universe...

R: ...It's not the beginning the - but it is the beginning of this universe, it is the beginning of the charter.

N: Yes. It is the beginning of like the rules of - of the universe we read in the books. And so, there's this very - very weird thing where, Mogget - Mogget was enslaved because, he was, neutral?

R: Mmhmm, he didn't take a side.

N: And that's, first off, that's unsettling already.

R: Yeah, 'cuz the winners kind of were like "Well we're not sure we can trust you?" and to be fair, we don't know whether he did anything actively antagonistic that long ago?

N: That's true.

R: But still this is pretty, harsh. We finally found out stuff in "Clariel", like that makes it feel even more harsh.

(2:54)

N: Oh yeah. Well, and - and I mean it's - it's weird because he - he, we kind of, we don't get this explicitly, but it's kind of implied that as far as like the strata of powerful beings goes, he was the only one that mattered, that was neutral, at all, like full stop. He was the only voice, that would have made a difference, that said "I don't want to be part of this." And then - And then he spent, you know, forever...

R: ... you know it's backed up in "Abhorsen" where he does make the final difference in the end, but as - as to what's in this book, this is our first chance...

N: ...oh, no wait, I want to talk about all of it because we had originally talked about all of it.

R: Ok sorry, it's been a month, I forgot.

N: Especially because we have more time. Yeah, this - this is the one where we hadn't talked about him before and so we just wanna like...

R: ...Just talk about everything...

N: ...Just talk about his - yeah.

R: Yeah, so if we're going back to stuff in like the first trilogy, one of the things that I found very interesting and again very unsettling is, he has a preferred form and he is forbidden to use it in the presence of the Abhorsens unless individual ones give him specific permission to use it.

N: Or we should say one of his preferred forms, but it is the one with hands.

R: It - it is the one...

N: ...I honestly wonder if that's not maybe why? That's total speculation. But it is interesting to me that his animal form is fine, but the form that has, like, opposable thumbs and digits...

R: ...interesting...

N: ...he was told "You can't have this". It's also the only form he can go out in the general public and talk and not cause, like, chaos.

R: And not automatically be a magical talking cat, yeah.

N: Yeah. And - and not necessarily that that's the only form he can take, but it is - it is kind of interesting thinking about it in that light because it's very much a freedom restriction, and - and it kind of seems random when you encounter it in the book, like, well why can't he have this form? But I actually don't think it was random.

R: I had always assumed that it was because the way he used that form is unsettling because he uses that form to still eat fish raw while they're still alive, and when he does it as a cat, everyone's a little bit cooler with it.

N: Yeah, but like, I don't know. There - there's just, there is that angle of, like, this is the preferred form that we see that has hands and - and...

R: ...Appendages? Amenities?

N: No. Being anonymous.

R: Oh, ona - anonymity.

N: I can't say that word, out loud, that's awful.

R: An-on-min-ity.

N: That doesn't sound like a real word, it's fake. Uh, no, it's the only...

R: ...Anonymity...

N: It's the form that we see, where he has the ability to be anonymous out in public. But - but although now, that being said, it's only he's not forbidden from using it ever, he's forbidden from using it around the Abhorsens so maybe it's not, you know, maybe it's not that deep.

(6:09)

R: Also to be clear, the form that he's in 99% of the time is a white cat. The other form that we are talking about...

N: ...Black cat...

R: ...that's forbidden - he's black? He's a black cat? I had always pictured him as a white cat. He's a cat. He's a cat, the reason, oh I'd had him in my head that he was a white cat, because when he is in his other form...

N: ... Orannis, or not Orannis, what's his name...

R: ...he's an albino dwarf...

N: ...Yeah, Mogget...

R: and so I had thought he was white in both forms.

N: Uhhh, he might be a white cat, hold on.

R: The black - the black cat is Kerrigor, because they split into a white cat and a black cat.

N: Ok, Google says that Mogget is 100% a white cat....

R: Yeah, Kerri-Kerrigor is...

N: ok, alright fine...

R: ...there is a black cat...

N: ...Kerrigor is the black cat

R: but it's Kerrigor, Yeah.

N: Ok, so, in "Clariel" - ok so - so when we're talking about like Mogget and trauma and - and, he's got - he's enslaved, he's restricted, and he's restricted, and - but he has like, he has his own agenda and this is I think like, you had talked about before, kind of where you know going back and forth with does he deserve this all or not, he has his own agenda, and that agenda is very very much, be free and eat his enslavers.

R: Mmhmm. I had just remembered a thing, I'm sure - I'm sure this did not originate with "Babylon 5", but I - but you know the - the first obligation of a prisoner is to escape, and that is what Mogget is doing...

N: ...Oh 100% of the time...

R: ...For thousands of years. Yeah. He can like other people, they are tools on the way to getting out and, uh, I really think it’s important that when he does finally get out, it's because someone trusted him before he proved himself if that makes sense?

N: Well...

R: ...Like Sam didn't wait for him to prove he was fine in order to trust him.

N: No, but Sam did decide... see this is where I actually don't think this was [an] altruistic decision.

R: No no no, Mogget's decision was not altruistic.

N: No, not his, Sam's.

R: Oh Sam's?

N: I think...

R: ...Well I mean it definitely was, if - if he didn't...

N: ...I think at literally - at literally any other point in the entire series, if he had been released, that would have been awesome. That would have been a freeing of a prisoner. Instead, he was released as a last - last ditch effort to defeat their enemy.

R: Right, because if he didn't help then they were screwed, and if he did help then they might make it. But, the reason - so, the reason I see it as being, like a genuine like, friendship thing from Sam, is the way he behaves toward him throughout the book, it's building toward this. Sam is like "I have decided to trust you"...

N: ...it does?...

R: ...and Mogget is like "Weird, but ok. I am going to stab you but ok" and then…

(9:13)

N: It definitely does build, see *ugh* this is the thing, it - from a narrative perspective, it's built in. From a power dynamics perspective, it is not. From a power dynamics perspective, this is the person in power saying "I am releasing you because your life is in danger and I want you to help me,"

R: Right.

N: And then deciding not to go recapture him, as a group.

R: That's true.

N: That was it. Like, I mean, yeah, Sam cares, Sam thought about him, Sam, "Oh what if Mogget was free" and, prob - I mean I would assume, the reason he was not gone after and - and recaptured was because he did stand with him. But if he hadn't, and they had won, even if they had won, he would have been back to being a prisoner. So, yeah, I - I look at that as being a - a coerced decision at best. From - from both directions. Because you really think Orannis is going to let him live when he also didn't side with Orannis and Orannis’s goal is destroying everything. So. And I do think it's important to note here that once Mogget has his freedom he does not go on a murderous rampage throughout creation. Which begs the question of would he have ever, or was that just the people who had the power saying "Well,we don't want you to do to you - we don't want you to do to us the equivalent of what we've done to you"?

R: So, I think that...

N: Especially because we learn, we learn in this book that Mogget very likely has people who look up to him as a god and have animals named after him and have, like he has a whole persona, and like, and - and everything we learn about him that is negative or destructive, comes from our Abhorsen narrative, it comes from, like, warnings and teachings from, like - like, we don't see him do anything that's not directly aimed at his own freedom or his own ability to - to have decision. Even the manipulation with Clariel, even that! He's egging her on, but she’s his ticket out of there..

R: Right, and it does come back to the

N: ...he wants her to grab the...

R: ...whole like first obligation of the prisoner is to escape, like the thing that he is doing, everything is to try and get out, and yeah as soon as we stop having the Abhorsens tell us how awful he is, someone like, likes him. And, you know, he's using her but he also didn't lie to her.

N: No.

(12:04)

R: Uhh, well, he - he did insinuate that she was going to be able to use charter magic *just fine* after using that much free magic...

N: Well...

R: ...but I think it is...

N: I think the thing is that he does, it's not that he doesn't lie to her. It's that he, he is manipulative and he is controlling the situation to get what he wants, and, I'm trying to remember if it states what his end goal is in "Clariel". Because I know killing, killing the king was a revenge goal for the two free - the two free magic spirits, but I don't remember if it ever says what Mogget’s goal is, or if he just kind of pushes them forward and then, you know, laughs when they’re loose. But yeah like, he’s - he’s very much this character where he’s - he’s built up as this big threat that they have to keep under wraps. And he absolutely has the power to be that threat. But nothing that he does warrants that kind of punishment in this series. Now, that being said this series is the culmination of a series of a - a history of events. We don’t have Mogget’s full backstory. We don’t even have Mogget’s internal dialogue, which is kinda part of the point here. But, and - and I don’t want to say that he’s a misunderstood character I want to say that when the people enslaving you talk up how dangerous you are and the only person you’ve ever on screen threatened is them, for holding you captive, that’s suspect at best.

R: I also do want to talk about how it’s warping his mind because what, at least what he’s able to say out loud, and as far as what I can tell, also what he is able to think is shaped by the collar...

N: Oh there’s certain things he’s forbidden to talk about...

R: So like he’s, it seems not just, like we see this the most in “Clariel”, where like at the very end once - right. But there’s definitely stuff he’s forbidden to talk about and some of the way he acts in “Clariel” makes me think there’s stuff that he’s literally unable to think when the Abhorsen’s attention is on him, because the way he acts at the end once, um, he’s like “Oh, I can’t believe I was ever doing all those terrible things that the abhorsens dont like.” and Clariel’s like “I can’t believe I’ve lost you, you’re gone, they’ve taken you,” that a sort of a, an idea. And he’s like “What do you mean? This is me,” and she’s kinda like “No, It’s - its not. It’s not you.” And for us, that depiction is further from the Mogget we see? But it’s consistent like “Clariel” kinda has us have bouncing around on both extremes...

N: ...But in the main trilogy though...

R:... and in the main trilogy he’s more - he’s more in the middle of that.

(15:04)

N: Oh, that’s - that’s straight up gaslighting.

R: Well in terms of trauma, not being able to control your own thoughts, not being able to trust your own thoughts? Yeah, that’s gaslighting. So this is like magical gaslighting where it’s like not just, yeah it’s - it’s magical brainwashing and gaslighting and because it’s built into the Abhorsen’s family of like “This is how we treat Mogget”, each individual Abhorsen isn’t even necessarily trying to hurt him? They just have a vague sense of...

N: ...for a millenia...

R: ...“If we don’t keep him controlled he’ll do something terrible” and they never stop to think that maybe he’ll do something terrible because “We’ve been locking him up and controlling him for so long. Maybe we should stop that sometime.” Until we get to the one in the family who isn’t an Abhorsen.

N: I don’t want to say Mogget the way he wants to be, but like, he’s - he’s the least, I would argue that he’s the least restricted in "Sabriel" because there is - there is a generational/functional knowledge gap because Sabriel does not grow up in the Old Kingdom, and does not have the cultural know-how that comes along with growing - with being your - in the place that you grew up, and because of that, Mogget wasn’t really very restricted? Because Sabriel kinda had to rely on him to be her safeguard and protector and backup and guide and... everything. Magically, Abhorsen-wise, she was fine. But physically, functionally, she was absolutely not, and also she knew enough to be wary of Mogget, she knew who Mogget was when they first met, she - you know was kind of muddling her way through, uh, controlling him as the with - in power in the moment. But, there’s a huge difference between; Mogget who could just... slip off, and walk away, and come back, and Sabriel gets upset that he - he went without telling her, and has *nothing* that she knows how to do about it. Versus, in "Clariel" where, Mogget couldn’t say words, because the current Abhorsen who holds the power over him, 20 years ago the last time he saw the cat had said “You can’t talk about this topic.” There’s just a big difference,and - and the difference that we see in "Clariel" versus "Sabriel" versus "Goldenhand" is that in "Clariel", Mogget was - figuratively and magically, literally under lock and key even when he was running away. In "Sabriel", he was just kind of, going too? Also? Like he was just kind of also going along with this adventure? And, if he had wanted - if he had wanted Sabriel dead, it would have happened.

(18:00)

R: Yeah, like with the paper wing? When he took it over? Though to be fair he did try, he did try then, like, Mogget totally unbound is not cool with everything, but Mogget with...

N: I mean he tried to escape is the thing?

R: Eh, he charged - he came at her - when he was like fire beast after, um, he rescued her with the paper wing and then she had to get the collar on really quickly because he was like “I’m going to eat you”, but I - I do agree that he is the most free of the versions of him with a collar, in "Sabriel".

N: Yeah, and then, but the time we get to "Goldenhand", he just does what he wants. And it’s great.

R: Well yeah, because it’s also post-Orannis

N: Yeah it’s post freedom, but like the - if you think about the conversations that Mogget has with the - the character interactions that Mogget has with people, the few times we see it in "Goldenhand" versus the other books? They’re the most similar to just the banter that he had in "Sabriel". Like the writing of his conversation is the closest - that’s where they match up.

R: Hmm.

N: And I think...

R: ...I’d have to look back at that...

N: ...it’s something that kind of struck me reading it through, like this time, because I read them all in, like, a span of three days. Instead - instead of reading the first three a lot and then the other two, by themselves when - when I got them, because they were released way after I - I really started reading the series. But like - like the tone - the words he uses, the way he just talks to people, like, the frank, blunt, honesty. He is straightforward with Sabriel, even within the limits of like the charter stone break? Way more than he is in any other book, other than "Goldenhand".

R: And in "Sabriel" he’s almost frustrated that he can’t give her more information, which is definitely not how he is in "Clariel". In "Clariel" he’s fighting to say - in "Clariel" he’s fighting to say less, in "Goldenhand" he can just do whatever. But, and I think - I think he, I would - I would say that towards the end of "Abhorsen" is actually his most free, but I - I agree that "Sabriel" we get the most of it and it’s the most emblematic because by "Abhorsen" he is a little bit more free and he’s starting to have individual people who are trusting him.

N: That’s true, but my - my argument for why, like I personally would vote for "Sabriel" on that is just because of how different he is around the dog. He shuts up around the dog in a way that he does not in any other book other than "Clariel". And in "Clariel" it’s magical, when he’s around the disreputable dog it’s by choice. And that’s with their shared history, that’s with their origin. Like he’s still, he does not want [breathy chuckle] that attention.

(21:12)

R: Because some remnant of - some - some, uh, version of the dog enslaved him so, yeah. He’s a little cagey about it.

N: Yeah, like there’s - there’s definitely, I think you’re right that there’s definitely moments in "Abhorsen" where he is - he is a lot more like, I mean really honestly, to be fair, it’s moments with Sam. It’s moments with not the Abhorsens, uh, but he has - he does have those moments, but also he straight up does not give information that would have helped them because the dog is around, or because, like, people are - you know he - he basically just kinda - there’s a couple moments where he basically just kind of goes “Go ask the people that are supposed to help you,” and they’re like “Um, but you’re supposed to be serving me,” and he’s like “Pssht, nah. I don’t want to help you now. Like, good, let Orannis get out and devour the world. That would be awesome,” like there’s - he doesn't say that verbatim but there is a conversation where that is basically his attitude. Is like, “Well, we were doing better for awhile but you’re back to treating me like - kind of a little bit not as nicely as I would like to be,” or, I - I mean to be fair it’s not “You’re treating me worse now,” it’s, it - it is “I don’t want to talk about, with the dog, go get the dog to help you,” and there - there’s just this dynamic there that where, I don’t know. It is - it is extremely interesting to me to kind of compare and think about.

R: And - and I do want to talk about how he is in "Goldenhand"? Because even though we don’t get a ton of him in "Goldenhand" like, we’re seeing him basically like, after all the bad stuff is over for him and he’s like - at his most powerful and most individual and, uh, here we learn where Mogget, when - when he can do whatever he wants, he is upset that people are messing... uh, he is upset when people are messing with his river? And so, uh, he is - when he is upset that people are messing with his river it - that is the thing that makes him, like, do something other than run around the world and catch fish and stuff. Mogget got the most upset about something he cared about for *him*, when people were messing with his river and so we see that Mogget left to his own devices care deeply about rivers because they have fish in them, and he wants to eat fish?

(23:58)

N: [chuckle] I mean honestly...

R: ...because I love Mogget but also I don’t...

N: You also love air conditioning, to be fair.

R: I love air conditioning...

N: ...And not awful heating...

R: Hello listeners, when we record these I have to turn off my air conditioning and it’s a sacrifice I make for you.

N: And - and in the - in the part of the country where Robin is, that - that means something. When you turn off...

R: I am in Louisiana, I’m in Louisiana, and I sacrifice my air conditioning for you. Um, yeah, so, uh...

N: ...It’s because they care...

R: ...the main points I think are Mogget is enslaved in a way that reaches his mind and messes with his ability to think and to express his free will and it’s kind of ironic that we’re talking about the trauma for him in “Goldenhand”...

N: ..."Goldenhand" is when he’s free!

R: ... because “Goldenhand” - it’s when he’s free, it’s when he has the least trauma, it’s when he finally has his own stuff, and I like that we’re finally getting to talk about that aftermath.

N: Yeah.

R: So.

N: I just - I just hope, as - as a closing thought, I just hope that Mogget actually likes creation and isn’t just trauma-bonded to it. To be fair...

R: ...well, I think that maybe...

N: ...He didn’t - he didn’t cling to the people, he did cling to the fish, which did nothing to him.

R: Well - well he eats them...

N: ...He does something to them...

R: He, yes. Um, Yeah did you have any - any other final thoughts?

Wrap up of discussion of character: Mogget 25:29-26:33

N: I mean other than that he’s my favorite, and, no not really.

R: Alright,well uh, thank you all for joining us for this slightly delayed extended minor character spotlight. We hope you liked this discussion that’s a little bit longer than what we usually can give to a minor character but he was in all five books and he was a big part of all the books, so it - it’s totally worth it and if we had to do this extended episode, this extended segment for uh, for any minor character, it’s Mogget.

N: If we could pick any, if I could pick, any minor character to treat as a main character, it would be my favorite cat who is in every book in this series. He’s the only character in every book in the series.

R: Yeah, he’s the only one in every book, um, we thought really hard about making him a main character...

N: ...we did...

R: but we couldn’t pick which book he would have been, and we never had - we almost - almost never had scenes from his perspective. So...

N: This is a good tribute.

R: Yeah, yeah. So, thank you for joining us for this slightly delayed minor character spotlight. You can find our full episodes and any minisodes we end up doing on iTunes, GooglePlay, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we will see you in a little under a fortnight.