The Subtle Knife

Series 2 Episode 2

Book 2 of the His Dark Materials Series by Philip Pullman

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

From the Show Notes...

This fortnight we bring you The Subtle Knife, book two of the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. 

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)

N: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (0:23-0:41)

Plot Synopsis (0:41)

N: This week we are discussing the “Subtle Knife”, the second book in the “His Dark Materials” series by Philip Pullman. In this book Lyra makes a friend in Will, and as a team they struggle to piece together the history of their worlds and repair the damage done to them.

Factions (0:55)

N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin, and this is Books That Burn, book two of the “His Dark Materials” trilogy; the “Subtle Knife” by Philip Pullman.

N: So our factions this book again are Will, Lyra and Pan. Uh, helpful adults we have Mary Malone, a guild member, and most of the witches. Uh, antagonists we have kids of Ci’gazze, Angelica, Paulo and Tulio, then - uh those are the children. Then we have Sir Charles Latrom [la-trom].

R: I've been saying Latrom [laaa-trom]…

N: ...Latrom…

R: ...but, it's very American, it sounds very funny.

N: [laughs] Plus his minions, one of whom is featured in Will’s um, third - our third topic with Will. We have neutral parties; adults of Ci’gazze, then our MacGuffins, the subtle knife and the Alethiometer. Alethiometer.

R: Alethiometer.

N: I wanna say Alethiometer, but that's fine. But…

R: ...Well you can…

N: ...it doesn't…

R: ...say Alethiometer…

N: ...not like I'm going to but like my brain wants to.

Topic 1: Ghost Children. Begins at (1:55), CW for warzone, death, parental abandonment, survivors guilt. 

N: Alright, so starting out with our minor character spotlight.

R: Yeah, so for our minor character spotlight we have specter orphans which are a phenomenon in Ci’gazze, uh brought out by hubris, ego, and the subtle knife.Um.

N: Well, you just - that’s…

R: ...and…

N: ...why are you repeating yourself. Robin.

R: Uh. [laughs]

N: It’s all the same thing.

R: [laughs] Um, yeah, so the thing with the specter orphans is they’re kids without parents and they're like, in a - eck, uh - they’re in a very interesting situation that, mmm, uh I sus - my guess would be someone who's an orphan because of a war, might be in a similar situation, but like this is a weapon - of a very particular way of becoming uh, an orphan because you know we have magical analogues for things.

N: I would actually go as far as to say that this is less a kid whose parents are in a war and more like a kid in a war zone.

R: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: ...I…

N: ...Just I’m being more specific with the wording.

R: Yeah, that is what I meant in my head…

N: [laughs]

R: ...I just didn't say it all the way.

N: Okay.

R: So, basically they're - they're surrounded by these uh, things that will take away their parents, like...

N:So, okay.

R: ...Minds? They’ll take away their parents' minds....

N: ...Mmmhmm…

R: ...and then the kids can't see them and so they - they know at any moment they could lose their parents.

N: Yeah.

R: And some of them by the time they know that's the thing they've already lost them.

N: Yeah, it's a very like - it's a very kind of specific kind of - kind of like take away from, you know. I'm trying to say ‘cause we - it's not just “You're gonna lose your parents,” it's this - it's this very specific kind of horror where they're not gone, they're not - they didn't…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...leave. They didn't walk away, but it's horrific because they are still there, and they don't care anymore, and they're stuck, and they don't move and…

R: ...And they…

N: ...they don't take care of themselves, and they don't even look at you with recognition, like. You can look your parent in the face and literally face the fact that they are no longer there in their head.

R: Right.

N: And, that's a - that's a very specific - you know, that's kind of funny ‘cause…

R: ...It's like part warzone, “part there's a disease giving adults comas”…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and keeping them from knowing…

N: ...actually…

R: ...if your parent is going to get…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...that, yeah.

N: And I -I thought - I think that that's interesting in this book because, it's not the kind of missing parent that we usually see, especially in - in child's fiction.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like - like it's way more common to -that - that's partly why we wanted to talk about this because it's way more common to see like parents who are literally gone.

R: Right, like I've read multiple books where the premise is “So all the adults vanished…

N: [laughs]

R: ...and now the kids have to have their own society”

N: ...or even…

R: ...uh, or…

N: ...or even literally “My mother went off…

R: ...I’ve read many great...

N: ...to war…

R: ...series with that premise.

N: Or even, “Mother went off to war and didn't come back and I'm gonna go find her, or “my dad went on a similar hunt when he was my age and I haven't seen him since,” like that's super…

R: ...I mean like…

N: ...common…

R: ...well - when we - when we get to Will we're gonna get a little bit of that one…

N: ...That's true…

R: ...but the specter orphans are their own - their own weird…

N: ...Their own horror [laughs]...

R: ...genius like.

(5:21)

N: Yeah.

R: And I - I think - I think it's [sighs] - I mean we'll get into like how things are portrayed later but I think this is like shown really well because the kids like, they - they act as close as I could imagine to someone in that situation.

N: Mmm, mmhmm.

R: They - they treat adults as useless because if they tre - if they treat them as important they're just gonna get hurt.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, they don't trust outsiders because of course they don't, like.

N: Right. [coughs]

R: Resources are limited, no one's making more stuff.

N: Yeah, and - and so like with our uh - so there's this thing that we wanted to kind of, I guess kind of highlight too, that happens in this book. All the adults are not already like this. Not all the adults have been affected, and so the ones that - that have - that have not, that are still they're trying to take care of the kids, there's this literal orchestrated abandonment…

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...with different groups of wandering people. And they're - and they're wandering to try and stay clear of the specters, they're not wandering by choice there. This is forced, uh…

R: ...Mmmhmm…

N: ...forced movement but they - they have this - they have this thing so that in any a group that includes adults and children, um mandated by law, there's two adults one man and one woman and this book is pretty heteronormative so - pretty…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...cis gen - cisnormative so in that context uh, one man and one woman are designated as essentially runners, and the instant that they see specters those two are to abandon everyone else and leave.

R: Riders specifically, but yeah.

N: Oh riders, sorry not runners.

R: Yeah.

N: But they are there…

R: ...That's a…

N: ...Their job is to leave everyone behind on purpose, let them all die, or the adults all die, because - and then come back and care for the children.

R: And that's the kind of thing where I didn't understand when I was first reading it as a kid I was like “How do they have this set up if they're this swamped?”

N: [sighs]

R: Well…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...they weren’t this swamped; they had 300 years of like “it's slowly getting worse”…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and so they had the time to like set up stuff and have laws and things about it, and then they got bloody…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...with the explosion between the worlds at the end of the last book…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and so we're also kind of seeing like the remnants of a coping mechanism…

N :...Mmm…

R: ...hitting something that is too much to cope now.

N: Yes. Yeah, they - they definitely like, that - that slow build-up really puts it in context.

R: Mmhmm.

N: ‘Cause you're right, like it doesn't make a lot of sense if it just happened overnight, but no this is something that they've been - they thought they were handling…

R: ...Right, for 300 years…

N: ...they thought they were handling and dealing with and then…

R: And so if you only have a couple, then yeah having two people on horseback and then there's like one specter attacking people when it gets full and leaves…

N: ...Yeah

(8:20)

R: It’s…

N: ...it's a very different…

R: ...Like…

N: ...series…

R: ...the whole group isn't gonna be dead but you know you have those two people, but…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...it's just too much now and they've got like all this uncertainty and like, briefly I want a moment of sympathy for the adults…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...because most of them had nothing to do with making the subtle knife or that whole society and so they're just in danger...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and they've got people around them whose job it is to live if they die and that's gotta be really weird and stressful.

N: I mean and think about the people whose job it is to live. They are…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...intentionally…

R: ...Oh yeah, survivor’s…

N: ...oh yeah…

R: ...guilt…

N: ... and deliberate, intentional, predetermined, survivor's guilt. I mean…

R: ...Right…

N: ...it, would it be unsurprising to me if the people who are designated had survivor's guilt before they were the survivor…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...that's - that's just a lot and - and especially…

R: ...And the text doesn’t go that far because it doesn't spend a whole lot of time on the…

N: ...No it doesn’t…

R: ...adults because…

N: ...the adults are irrelevant…

R: ...these adults are super impermanent and they're gonna die soon.

N: [sarcastic tone] So why give them book time? [end sarcastic tone] No, but I mean this really is…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...the story for kids about kids, so it's - it's not as bad as we're making it sound in that regard.

R: No.

N: But also it's - I mean I just, you know - actually what you mentioned with the whole 300 years of buildup thing, uh, a lot of those I would bet actually probably most or all of those adults who are designated to be survivors. [meow] How many of them do you think were part of bands of [meow] - of people who watched an adult survive [coughs] when they were a child?

R: Oh yeah. Oh, I hadn't thought about that!

N: Like that's…

R: Yeah, ‘cause all these people made it to adulthood because there were specters, but there weren't a ton of them.

N: But it still happened.

R: Oh yeah.

N: It was still part of it.

R: Sure, yeah so with 300 years…

N: ...Eh…

R: ...probably a lot of these adults used to be specter orphans.

N: Yeah.

R: Not as many as now, but enough.

N: Well now - now it's like what, 99%?

R: Well now…

N: [laughs]

R: I mean now- now it's so bad that the specters just hover around someone as they are becoming an adult, which for the record is as they are turning 13.

N: It’s like - it’s like…

R: ...So…

N: ...as they enter puberty so for someone's as young as what…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...11 they said in the book and for some it's, you know some kids - some survived until they're like 14, 15 and then that's it.

R: And we continue to get little sprinklings of it, like it stays relevant. Part of why we spend enough time talking about this is because adults that we have been following for over a book now, are going to be in danger from this in this book and the next book. Like - it - yeah, so it's not just like a pointless dive into a bunch of like, weird horror stuff. It - it has a point, it has a purpose.

Topic 2: Will as a caretaker. Begins at (11:15), CW for stalking, neglect, child caregiver, imaginary threats, escalation of horror. 

R: Alright, moving on to Will having to “adult” while he's still a child. Uh, yeah, so he's kind of a general caregiver and protector for his mother…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...and he goes to this like, weird ricochet between being - and when we say like he's now like 11 or 12.

N: Yeah.

R: Like he is not super old. So when he was very little he completely believed her that all the threats were real, that someone was…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...actually like, watching her, keeping track of her groceries, had stolen her purse then figured out that's in her head. No one cares what she buys at the grocery store.

N: Yeah.

R: Like, they don't. They're not there then, “Oh no people are actually after us,” because someone breaks into the house trying to get his father's notes and then once Will learns about specters there's kind of this like fridge horror of, she kind of was behaving like someone who was being stalked by a specter so maybe it's like, yeah the actual threat that she thought was happening wasn't real but something was happening to her and she just didn't know what it was or couldn't say it because it's an invisible thing.

N: Yeah, yeah there's this very stressful walkthrough [laughs]...

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...of like, “My mom is... thinks that there's real things after us and and this is - this is something I believed as a child,” and then finding out that it's not physical and then “Oh no it is physical,” and then “Oh no the thing that's not physical…

R: ...There's a - there's also a little…

N: …caused…

R: ...bit physical…

N: ...well also a little bit physical”, and like I think that something that's really important to me when we were - when we were kind of going over this uh, beforehand, it's like there's no point at which he looks at his mother and says “Well you're just wrong.”

R: No.

N: He never does that.

R: No. Even like step two when he figures out that the stuff is in her head his reaction is like, “Well I've got to protect her because, because she's acting like this people are going to be mean to her and I need to protect her,” like…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...he never just like, casts her away, and…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...unfortunately, ‘cause he's little he ends up having to protect her from like, people being terrible.

N: Yeah, and - and he - and there's this - but there's always this element of “Even if I, Will, know that this threat isn't real I will still treat her as though it is real and I will still - I will not invalidate or belittle her belief in this thing being real,” like…

R: ...Yeah, like…

N: ...they talk about in the book like he - like the little games, you know the things that she says are games when he’s super little then he realizes later like no it's actually a preventative - protective…

R: ...It’s a coping mechanism…

N: ...preventative - yeah. There's a point where he actually mentions that he still plays those grocery games to hide their stuff with her because even if he knows no one is gonna steal their groceries she still believes it and he's not going to - he - he's not gonna stress her out by taking away that coping mechanism, and he doesn't use those words for it but he's still…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...he's still very much validating and trying to alleviate her fear without just telling her she's wrong.

R: Or like, helping her touch all the slots in the park benches just…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...like…

N: ...like trying to help her get home faster so let's do it together.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Yeah, it's - it's - um, I don't know. It's - it's very good, um.

R: Yeah, and then like, general caregiver when he figures out that he has to go on his mission like, he leaves his mom with a neighbor.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Like, you know. He - he's the one taking her - care of her so he makes sure that someone else is going to take care of her now.

N: Mmhmm.

R: Yeah, he just - “adulting as a child” it's just the best way to say it…

N: [laughs]

R: ...because….

N: [coughs] He is the caregiver.

R: Yeah, uh, and he - he's…

N: ...His whole role…

R: … he’s - he’s doing his best, but then every once in a while we get, like, an outside perspective of like someone else looking at him and knowing about her, kind of having a “Oh you shouldn't have to do this, you're a kid,” kind of a…

N: [sighs]

R: ...reaction.

N: Like, “Oh no, you're the child.”

R: Yeah, which - like I appreciate because then it's not - like you get something that if - if you would be a reader who's a kid inclined to think “Well, I gotta take care of my parents,” you have just enough of like other people being like “Oh you shouldn't have to be doing that. That's not how this should work,” like you get - you get - I think you get like, uh, just the right amount of it so for it not to cause, like a dissonance in the text…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...while being like a nice counterpoint to say, “Okay we know this is weird and we're trying to figure out what's going on.”

Topic 3: Will and Murder. Begins at (15:45), CW for death, murder, bully mention, description of combat. 

R: Alright, moving on to, uh, Will and manslaughter. That escalated very quickly. Ah, and just like how it happens in the book, like, he doesn't have a lot of time to process and has to keep working through stuff while s - keeping moving. Just - just keep going. I'm going…

N: ...Just keep swimming…

R: ...straight from…

N: ...swimming, swimming…

R: ...protecting his mom to protecting Lyra, uh.

N: Yeah. There's this whole - so, okay, before we get into like details of what physically happened in the book.

R: Mmmhmm.

N: I just want to kind of highlight like, that like, this whole - this whole book, he's really kind of - and - and honest - oh wait. When does on the Alethiometer, she gets the reading in this book in not in the last one, right?

R: Yeah, she can…

N: ...Yeah, it’s all in…

R: ...she could read it…

N: ...this one.

R: Well, she could read it last book but…

N: ...But - but her reading of him, she didn't like get a - a premonition reading.

R: No, no, no.

N: Okay.

R: No, it was she met him....

N: ...um…

R: ...and then took a quiet moment to look him up.

N: Okay, so, there - there's a narrative that kind of gets pushed on Will by other characters, um that he is a violent person, that he is a murderous person, that he is a - a um - a - a - and it's - and it's a thing that - I mean we don't get this book going into their adulthood. We don't get a - a “then” and “now”, thing. Um, but I just [sighs] - I don't know. It - it honestly - it starts in his flashbacks and his memories with protecting his mom from bullies. He had this reputation in school already, and he had people telling him that this was just how he was when he was younger. And - and again like keep in mind he's like 11, so younger is like, less than 10, and because he - he was protecting himself and protecting his mom from people trying to hurt him, but he's the one that got a reputation as a violent person. Uh, and then it - it kind of carries over. Like not even - not even getting into like the Alethio - the Alethiometer, or anything, [coughs] but just like, when he's protecting Lyra he has to make a split [second] decision and he does choose the violent option but it's also really in context of the text. It was kill or be killed.

R: Right.

N: Like - like it wasn't like he was choosing between killing versus something else. He was choosing between killing or dying. Like he was really forced into that. Um, it…

R: ...And I would like to point out that even though this is a narrative of him being a murderer, it's not really with a lot of more elaboration or anything.

N: No.

R: It’s just like - like when Lyra is told by the Alethiometer that it's a murderer she like, relaxes and is like “Okay, I can trust him.”

N: [laughs] Yeah, which says a lot about Lyra’s experiences…

R: ...A lot about Lyra [laughs]...

N: ...in the world Um.

(18:57)

R:Yeah.

N: Yeah, but - but there's this - there's this narrative of, Will is forced into a situation where defending himself means violence and then you get other adults - [pauses to rephrase] I say other adults, like he's an adult, you get adults [coughs] that are telling him, “Well this is just your nature and just embrace the side of you,” and, “good for you boy you're trying,”

R: And like we even get the line “Argue with anything else but don't argue with your own men - nature.”

N: Yeah.Yeah, and - and like - I don't know. I was - I really wonder like, how that would be processed if we saw him growing up with that because that kind of a narrative, and it doesn't even - honestly it doesn't even matter. His particular narrative line is - is, um - is violent oriented but that kind of a narrative pressure from, particularly adults, but just pe - other people when you're when - you're little, that has a lasting impact no matter what the…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...narrative is and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...like that's - that's a lot to - to - to put on him especially when it’s…

R: ...That’s a lot to put on a kid.

N: Yeah, especially when it's - when it's like not - okay. [sighs] Not the whole story is the wrong way to put it but like, it - it's not something that he's doing on purpose. it's actually something…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...he's trying to avoid. [laughs]

R: Yeah, like he - oh and - and over and over, a violent solution will work and sometimes it is the only option but, I don't know if it feels like - I think the - I was thinking about how like when he gets told, you know, “Don't argue with your own nature,” in a book where people's natures are external to their bodies and they can have a conversation with them it's a really interesting thing to say and it came from his father who's from his world who doesn't - who didn't start out life with a daemon that he could see and talk to. So, I don't know I was just thinking how maybe it matters that that line, that the deterministic line came from someone who did not spend their entire life with the daemon.

N: Oh absolutely.

R: Because by the time he got his daemon, he was an adult, it was this one shape.

N: [sighs]

R: This is just how his daemon is.

(21:33)

N: This just was his nature, it's not malleable at that point.

R: Right.

N: But yeah. But yeah...

R: ...But…

N: ...for like for - for Will like it still absolutely is malleable…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ... and I think you're right. I think his dad has no clue but that's - or - or no real understanding that that isn’t a thing.

R: Right, there's a difference between knowing, “Well I'm in this world. I ended up with - I got a daemon because of a thing I did in this world and uh kids have daemons that change. Well moving on with my life.”

N: [laughs]

R: Like he might - he might have a deeper understanding of it, because like he's a shaman, but…

N: ...Whoah…

R: ...also the - the way he talks to his kid…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...the way he talks to Will, doesn't - doesn't really lend itself very much to that interpretation, like that was me trying to be super generous.

N: [laughs].

R: Um…

N: ...That was…

R: ...Like, yeah…

N: ...that was you trying to be nice. [laughs]

R: The deterministic “Don't argue with your own nature thing,” really fights - it really fights really cool stuff like, Iorek making his own soul again like, I don't know, it - it - I don't know. With Will, I think maybe we should get into how the - there's a reason we called it manslaughter even though everybody else is calling it…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...murder. I think we should get into that a little bit ‘cause I think it's very important.

N: Okay.

R: Um.

N: Okay so, are we going into legal definitions or we just [laughs].

R: Um, I was just gonna like describe what happened and - because like legal definitions vary but I - I feel like we can frame it in non legal ways that paint the picture. So he - he was - so people were in his home, had broken into his home, were searching his stuff, searching his mom's stuff, trying to find these papers from his dad and, he's - he - was - is it that he was there or that he came home? Like he - I do not remember, but he - he ends up there at the same time that they are there.

N: He was - he came - in - in the book he…

R: ...Oh he…

N: ...came home, went to sleep, woke up…

R: ...And they were in the house.

N: ...and the door was opening. Yeah.

R: Okay. Um, so he has a fight - a physical fight with one of them at the top of the stairs, and pushes this guy backwards and the person falls down the stairs, and dies, probably broken neck we don't know specifically, but they fall down the stairs and - and die.

N: “Land funny”…

R: ...And…

N: ...quote unquote.

R: Yeah, and he is pretty sure they're dead, but he doesn't really like check and confirm, and he gets out of there because he's trying to - to leave. Um, and so he was defending his home and so if we went into legal stuff like he probably would have been more okay there, but…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...also he's a - he's a kid who just killed somebody and even though he wasn't trying to kill him when pretty immediately people are telling him that he is a murderer…

N: ...Well I…

R: ...like he…

N: ...Yeah.

R: He doesn't get - he doesn't get to process it really on his own.

N: Well and - and also like, he is a kid who kind of is what we had a little bit mentioned, he is a kid who his first instinct was, “I'm going to attack this grownup,”

R: Mmhmm.

N: And - he wasn't intending death…

R: ...Right, but he felt…

N: ...he - his first instinct…

R: ...like he…

N: ...was…

R: ...decides he could do something…

N: ...not “ Hi sir. Why are you in my house? Please leave.”

R: Mmhmm.

N: “What do you want?” His for - his first instinct was “Don't let them know I'm here, and hurt them,” and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ... and again, like that's - that's something that he has been forced into over, and over, and over. It's still a deliberate decision…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...but that's his - that's his - his mindset that he's been, um…

R: I mean ‘cause previously it has worked because he'd been defending himself against other children, and so a little bit of violence scares the other kid, gets them to not do something worse.

N: Mmhmm.

R: But then it was an adult at the top of some stairs.

N: Yeah, and - and it's - it's hard, I mean in that moment like, look what are you gonna do?

(25:48)

N: There's not - there's not a lot of options that he had. He couldn't leave, it's his house, you know.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And - and so he chooses to push the guy and - but yeah and - you know here's something with the - the Alethiometer that I think is - I - I'm not sure how subtle it is with its communication.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Like I think it was totally possible that…

R: ...Oh it said he killed someone and Lyra's like “Ah, a murderer.”

N: Or even just that the Alethiometer communicating with Lyra, there's only one word for “killed someone”.

R: Yeah.

N: Like, it - it might be a pointless distinction between murder and manslaughter in that regard where the Alethiometer just doesn't know, but then we get to these - to the other adults later who trying to tell him “No, you *are* a violent person,” and so that’s…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...that's a little bit of a different flavor text but I think, [sighs]. I - I don't know and I wonder - I wonder also how real the killing part of it is to Lyra, because she didn't grow up as a sheltered child but like, she grew up - I mean she grew up playing street wars, right...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...with the other kids and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...and I wonder how much of it is in context of, “Oh he would fit in with my group,” and how much of it is, “Oh no, he ended a life,” and - ‘cause she's still a kid too, and I - I - I wonder like if we - if we really sat down and had the chance to- to ask the author, I wonder how much of that is just Lyra doesn't really understand what happened and also the Alethiometer doesn't really have subtleties, so Lyra feels better and Will is fine because none of - and nobody else really has context when they - when they kind of talk about his actions, and so, you know it works out, but you I - I wonder if - if Lyra would have had the same reaction if the Alethiometer gave more details I guess, or if - you know if she had more of a context for death. I don’t know. And I don't know that she doesn't. I just don't - I just know that the text doesn’t hand us more.

R: Yeah.

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (28:15).

R: Alright, onto the wrap up. For our gratuity rating for the specter orphans. Uh, moderate…

N: [laughs]

R: ...maybe severe.

N: Um, I would argue…

R: ...Like you got a bunch of backstory, you got a bunch of off-screen…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...but what we do see…

N: ...What we do - oh, okay. So - so we're - we’re talking about it the way the text describes it not our own understanding of it.

R: Yeah.

N:: If we pull it out of context and just talk about it it's severe.

R: Mmhmm.

N: The way the text depicts it…

R: Moderate.

N: Moderate, yeah.

R: Does that still hold true if we include what happened to Tullio with the specter orphans?

N: Uh, no but we also didn't do that.

R: Okay, alright.

N: That is a different…

R: ...So…

N: ...that is a different set up, but it's okay.

R: Yeah. Uh, so Will having to be an adult while he's a kid.

N: Honestly I feel like this is one of those that is…

R: ...It’s - it's mostly bad the more you think about it so the actual…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...depiction is pretty mild.

N: Uh, yeah. The - the depiction itself - I - I agree. I think the depiction itself is - is incredibly mild like it's - it's framed…

R: ...It’s…

N: ...as just this…

R: ...This is what's happening…

N: ...it's just this thing that's just going on and of course he is and - and honestly in context of books that are about child protagonists and the whole point of the story is that they're still children, it's not just that they're…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...young, they are children for plot reasons.

R: Right.

N: Um, I think that it - it doesn't even read as being an abnormal thing because Will is of course the child so of course he's the one making decisions.

R: Right.

N: And I think that that even lends itself to even more just, it's just there's just part of the story and it's mild.

R: Mmhmm.

(30:16)

R: And, then uh - then our final topic of uh, manslaughter. Um, I think that…

N: ...I think that it is…

R: ...the range is…

N: ...moderate.

R: Yeah moderate, because the actual - the actual…

N: ...The actual…

R: ...thing…

N: ...wording is not super graphic, it's not super detailed, it's just kind of…

R: ..It’s matter of fact…

N: ...there, yeah, yeah.

R: Yeah, the aftermath to the trauma has some like…

N: ...More [laughs]...

R: ...very direct words but it's not - but even then it - yeah, moderate. It's mostly moderate because of what happened not - it's not say - said graphically or anything. Uh, then - alright were the specter orphans integral to the plot? Oh yes.

N: Absolutely.

R: Yeah, yeah. You couldn't really have…

N: [sighs]

R: ...the specters have the weight that they do without there being the specter orphans.

N: I mean and if you…

R: ...That’s all I’m gonna say there.

N: Yeah, and if you tried to insert change, edit them with something else like, you could do…

R: ...It’d be a different…

N: ...it, it’d be a different book, yeah, because they're just so important.

R: I might read that book but…

N: [laughs]

R: ...it would be a different book. And uh…

N: ...Not saying I wouldn't like it but…

R: Will, having to be an adult, uh it's integral with a plot.

N: It's the whole reason he's free to just jump into another world with no concern.

R: Right. If he were…

N: ...Like it - it - it is…

R: ...straight up …

N: ...the set up.

R: Yeah, like if he were straight up an orphan, I think he would be less able to jump out…

N: ...Oh yeah…

R: ..because then he’d be…

N: ...because the adults…

R: ...like in an…

N: ...would be looking after him…

R: ...orphanage…

N: …at all.

R: ...or something.

N: Right.

R: Right.

N: You have anybody…

R: ...Yep…

N: ...watching what he's doing. Yeah.

R: Yeah.

R: Um, uh, and then the same with the uh, manslaughter incident. That is…

N: ...I mean all of…

R: ...that is integral…

N: ...it. And - and we're…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...talking about like a lot of incidents in that and those are - they're all…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...they're all kind of key plot points. It’s not just…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...integral like they are plot. [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: Uh.

R: Alright. Was the trauma treated with care in voice, language. and phrasing. Uh.

N: Yes.

R: For the orphans I feel…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...like it's yes. I'm gonna go ahead and say enough care with the orphans because I feel like part of the point to like slowly build the horror is to slowly, like strip away some of the language and softening of it.

N: Yeah, that's fair.

R: Um, so it slowly gets harsher and then it's gonna get harsher in the next book but it - it - um, I think it's enough and especially when it's a magical analog for a thing that - that gives some leeway.

(33:01)

R: Will adulting as a child. Uh, it is it's - it's treated with care.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: It's treated with so much…

R: ...He…

N: ...care that it's - we've listed it as mild, [laughs].

R: Yeah.

N: Like in the text they've - they - uh, the author has pulled it down so much.

R: Uh, and then manslaughter, um, yeah. I think - I think he was treated with care, um, because - I mean when those are [sighs] - there are other depictions of violence in these books but these are…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...some of the more visceral depictions of violence in the books and they're not super visceral.

N: Hmm.

R: Um.

N: They’re some of the more direct depictions but they're not visceral.

R: Yes, that's - yeah - yeah. There some of the most direct and straightforward like, blow-by-blow here's what's happening.

N: Yeah, but it still feels very santi…

R: ...Not boring…

N: ...santi - not sanitized but…

R: ...not visceral…

N: ...held back.

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: Yeah. Look - just enough distance. Um, interestingly - okay I'll talk about this with point of view ‘cause I just had a - had a thought.

N: Okay.

R: Alright so…

N: ...Well, that's where we are. [laughs]

R: Yeah so…

N: ...Okay…

R: ...well, but it's for the third topic so I'll pause a moment.

N: Oh, okay.

(34:24)

R: So for the specter orphans.

N: Point of view, we actually do get…

R: ...We bounce...

N: ...the kids…

R: ...bounce around. Yeah, we get - we get uh, told what it's like by some of the kids. We get told what it's like by some of the adults, um.

N: Yeah.

R: And then we also have just Will and Lyra’s own observations and I think - I think we get a good balance of things.

N: Yeah.

R: Uh.

N: I think we mostly get…

R: ...Bounces around a little bit but not too much.

N: For the aftermath I think we mostly just get Lyra.

R: Mmhmm.

N: We get a lot of Lyra noticing it from a distance after - after it's been brought to her attention and she's been…

R: ...Mmmhmm…

N: ...informed on it we get a lot of Lyra kind of going, “Oh that thing again. Oh no,” [laughs]

R: Right.

N: Uh, we gotta get that.

R: Yeah. Uh, Will adulting as a child, we…

N: ...Do we just get…

R: ...mentioned…

N: ..Will?

R: ...previously we occasionally get other adults looking at the situation and going, “Oh, oh that shouldn't be a thing. That shouldn't…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...be happening...”

N: That's true.

R: ...and so I think bouncing out to those is really useful because otherwise you'd get wrapped up in, “Yep, this is just what he's doing, and this is should be how it is,” because he's a kid so he doesn't see there as being any other option but then we get some adults looking at it and going, “Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.” Um, did you have any more thoughts on that?

N: Um, I mean I think for - not really. I just kind of agree ‘cause um, there - there really is just a lot of like, Will depicting what happens and then other people reacting like “Oh no!” but like there isn't really - there isn't really a lot of communication about it, it's more just observation and so I - I think…

R: ...Right…

N: ...I think that's it, that's all that really happens there.

R: Like we get the neighbor’s internal monologue…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ..but that’s…

N: ...but we don’t…

R: ...the most…

N: ...they don’t have a conversation.

R: ...direct thing. Right.

N: Yeah.

R: No one says to Will, “Hey this is messed up,” they just kind of think in their head “Oh, it's kind of messed up.”

N: Yeah, Right. [laughs]

R: Um, ah dang it, what was my really good thought?

N: [laughs] Oh no.

R: Oh no, um, it was point of view on the manslaughter. Uh, dang it, should have said it. You could have moved it. Um okay, start - start talking about, so with the - the point of view, um…

N: ...Point of view for them for his - his “violence”, oh I mean…

R: Oh that's - I know what it is!

N: Oh okay.

R: Um, yeah. So we're talking about - bouncing a little bit into treating it with care…

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...um, because the things happen so fast. Almost the best way to not have it be extremely visceral was to use Will’s perspective in those moments…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...because it happened so quickly and it happened from his point of view where it's like, move, move, move, it's over.

N: Mmhmm.

R: But if you were an observer not having to make all the split-second decisions then you would get more of, like a visceral effect from it.

N: Oh yeah, like if you're watching it happen, yeah.

R: Yeah, like in the fight for the knife, like that's…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...there's some stuff that would be way - that could have been way more viscerally described and was not…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and, um, so - but yeah I think that by being in the head of the person reacting violently in a weird way it made it less visceral…

N: [laughs]

R: ... which is not how that usually works…

N: ...Well?

R: ...in books but it's done very - well I guess…

N: ...In books…

R: ...maybe, I guess…

N: ...in books it's not. I - I mean but honestly I think it depends on what books you read ‘cause a lot of the books I read that's exactly uh - it - it's one way or the other. It's either…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...it’s either that putting it in that person's head makes it feel more like split-second last-minute reactions because it is…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...or you realize how calculated and precise it was.

R: Right.

N: Um, actually I don't know if this series is too long, I bet it is, I bet it's too - I bet it’s too long…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...for us to do this but there - no, actually no, I think there's a couple of these series that I have on our list. Uh.

R: What?

N: There was a couple series where being in the protag’s head shows you how graphic it is because…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...everyone else thinks of them as this sweet innocent person and there's this whole thing, like, um, I don't know if we want to read those books but I put them on the list because I love them very much but they're good, um.

R: Yeah.

N: But yeah. In - in Will’s case it's - it - it highlights how - how much he's not intending to do that much damage and is just trying to get away.

R: Yeah.

N: Okay

(39:33)

N: Moving on? [laughs]

R: Yep. Moving on to the…

N: [coughs]

R: ...aspiring writer tip.

N: Aspiring writer tip, um, ah. Do you have one? Here's something.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Here's something that I - I - I think is - is nice about this book or - or happens in this book in a way that is just kind of a really good balance.

R: Mmhmm?

N: A lot of books in multi-part series, especially the middle books…

R: ...Mmmm, they suffer.

N: They suffer a lot. [laughs] They're either a hundred and ten percent just laying hooks for whatever comes next, or they're so self-contained and they almost feel irrelevant.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And this particular book has its own full complete story but you need to read the third one because it's not over.

R: Right, and you need to have read the first one otherwise…

N: ...Yes…

R: …“who’s Lyra? Why is this happening?”

N: [laughs] Yeah, yeah exactly. Um.

R: Okay.

N: And I - I think that - that I think that this book is the…

R: ...having enough - having enough plot threads…

N: ...Having many plots but not…

R: ...that it’s an entire story within this book.

N: Right, but also not being afraid to close plot threads in a middle book.

R: Mmhmm.

N: That's something that like - a - actually I don't think any of the series that I've read so far has been guilty of this but I've read a lot of books where you get book one which is really good - nice - nice start, nice intro, everything kind of makes sense. Book two is just like “This will happen soon. This other thing will happen soon. This will happen eventually, stay tuned.”

R: Mmhmm.

N: And then you get to book three and chapter one is just thread closed, thread closed, thread closed, thread closed, plot, plot, plot, plot, and then the story…

R: ...Like why didn’t you close…

N: ...continues…

R: ...any.

N: Right, and then…

R: ...Oh like they…

N: ...the story…

R: ...close…

N: ...continues…

R: ...a bunch of stuff from book two…

N: ...in like chapter…

R: ...just in the…

N: ...one, of book three.

R: Oh yeah.

N: And that's - that's the kind of book where it makes you almost feel like, “Well I could have just gotten a summary of what I missed by skipping book two,” and it's…

R: ...I mean…

N: ...not as fun to read. Um.

R: It’s like if a TV show has a cliffhanger at the end of the season because they're just like trying to make sure they have the next season and then they…

N: ...Yes…

R: ... resolve the danger immediately.

N: Then they resolve the danger in the opening shot and you're like, “Well, okay, fine. I didn't…

R: ...Glad I waited…

N: [laughs]

R: ...a year.

N: Right.

R: [laughs]

N: Right [laughs]. Like, “Glad we had to wait for that. Cool,” um.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And - and this book doesn't do that. There's - there are…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...threads that were threads in book one that actually close in book two, um, but not in - not in chapter one like in - throughout the story they - they lay the threads for book three very, very cleanly, but book two also has a full complete arc.

R: Yeah.

N: And - and also the hook for book three, I think happens in like the last chapter or two.

R: Right.

N: It's not a hook that's been building from chapter three and we just don't know yet. Like, no it's - it's legitimately…

R: ...Well…

N: ...oh here's the next part stay tuned, but it's a positive thing, and it's…

R: ...But with there…

N: ...its - the…

R: ...this particular hook the groundwork was laid in book one for why we care...

N: …Oh - oh yeah, yeah, yeah…

R: ...but the actual plot bits didn’t start…

N: ...That’s what I meant…

R: ...start rolling, yeah.

N: That's what I meant, is like plot wise it's not like - it’s the - it’s [coughs] Sorry. [coughs]

R: The inciting incident comes after…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...some build-up and a lot of backstory spread out over enough time.

N: Instead of the inciting incident, and then a bunch of filler stuff.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, so.

R: Yeah. Uh.

N: So yeah, uh, aim for that with your middle books I guess…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...is the takeaway there. [meow] Can you hear my cat?

R: Only a little bit.

(43:54)

R: Um, favorite non-traumatic thing. Um, what?

N: Um?

R: [sighs]

N: Favorite non-traumatic thing. I'm trying to stay only in this book.

R: Yeah that's the hard part.

N: [laughs] Yeah, there's so much stuff that like rolls over as we were just talking about ‘em.

R: Oh! Oh, um, um.

N: My cat…

R: ..Lee Scoresby…

N: ...might be really, really trying to like weigh in and - and tell us how she feels about this book. She's…

R: ...Hmmm…

N: ...attempting this very hard.

R: Lee Scoresby, that's what it is.

N: Okay.

R: Uh, we get a little bit of Lee in the first book but just Lee Scoresby and Hester, we get so much of their dynamic.

N: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

R: Um, yeah, uh. And he's not in book three, so um, [laughs].

N: [laughs]

R: This is when to talk about him, uh. Yeah, uh, I just [sighs]. I love - I love his dynamic. Um, Hester's understated and awesome. Um, yeah. He's - he's - it's - it's like he's a Texan in like Texas is its own country?

N: [laughs]

R: Uh, is the vibe that I got from this.

N: [laughs]

R: Um.

N: I mean to be fair in America, Texas is a whole identity...

R: ...Well yeah…

N: ...much in the way…

R: ...but like…

N: ...of a nationality.

R: But it took me until rereading the series for the podcast to realize that no, Texas is just it’s country - it's a country. Like he's not even an American from Texas he’s a - he’s a - internationally he's a Texan and Texas is a country. Um, but uh, I just - uh, Lee Scorseby is - is great and [sighs], I - it's so good I just [sighs], not trying to do little plot spoiling details or anything but just Lee Scoresby and Hester, Hester's his daemon and they're great. Uh, what was yours?

N: Uh, mine honestly - I don't know I really just like the knife.

R: Mmhmm.

N: As an…

R: ...It’s very pretty…

N: ...object [laughs]. I just want one.

R: Mmhmm.

N: I - I don't need it to cut things, I just want how shiny and sharp it is. That's all.

R: Mmhmm, yeah.

N: Um, I don't know that that's technically non - non traumatic but I really just want one of those nights, um.

R: Yeah.

N: So, I guess that's mine.

R: Yeah. Well, uh, think that’s it. Thank you for joining us.

N: Yeah.

R: In book two.

N: Hope this is…

R: Alright, yeah. Stopping recording

Outro: Begins at 46:50.

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