The Amber Spyglass

Series 2 Episode 3

Book 3 of the His Dark Materials Series by Philip Pullman

("N" denotes Nicole, "R" denotes Robin)

Timestamps are placed at approximately three-minute intervals throughout the transcript.

From the Show Notes...

This fortnight we bring you The Amber Spyglass, the conclusion of the His Dark Materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. 

Episode intro and disclaimers (0:00-0:22)

N: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The hosts are not trained professionals, and their opinions come from personal experience, not from professional training. In this episode we discuss fictional depictions of trauma and violence that may not be suitable for all listeners, so please take care of yourselves. Specific content warnings for each episode can be found in the show notes. Events in the media are discussed in approximate order of escalation. This episode contains spoilers.

[Transcript Disclaimer: Content warnings for each section can be found in the collapsible section headers.]

Musical Interlude (0:23-0:36)

Plot Synopsis (0:41)

N: This week's episode is on the “Amber Spyglass” by Phillip Pullman in the “His Dark Materials” trilogy. In this book Lyra and Will deal with the pain and harsh realities of growing up in their world as they embark on their final adventure in the series.

Factions (0:55)

N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin, and welcome to Books That Burn. Now for our factions we have uh, Will with Kirjava, Lyra with Pan. We have some helpful adults; Mary Malone (a guild member), most of the witches. Got our antagonists: the city, the kids of Ci’gazze, Sir Charles Latrom, and some minions. Some neutral parties; just like random adults in Ci’gazze, and we have our MacGuffins: the Subtle Knife, and the Alethiometer.

Topic 1: Pantalaimon and Kirjava. Begins at (0:50), CW for abandonment, death. 

R: And for our minor character spotlight we are talking about Pantalaimon and Kirjava. So these are - so - so Pantalaimon, we already know. That's Lyra's daemon, we've mentioned him before.

N: Yeah.

R: Kirjava is Will’s daemon who came into existence in this book when Will and Lyra went to someplace that daemons cannot go with them.

N: At - and I - I think it is important real quick to just kind of throw in that Kirjava it's not that she didn't exist…

R: ...Right…

N: ...it's just that she wasn't extant as a separate individual creature. She was just part of Will and then didn't have her own physical presence, and…

R: ...Right…

N: ...now she does.

R: She's this, you know, when he argues with himself that's who he's arguing with.

N: [laughs] I - I think that that has a really fun real-world implication.

R: I mean to me that makes sense as to why Lyra’s so like blunt and direct and doesn't really seem to have much of an eternal lot - monologue because…

N: ...Mmmm…

R: ...her internal monologue is with Pan.

N: ...is external.

R: Right.

N: It’s external monologue. Well I - I just…

R: ...Right…

N: ...think it - it has fun implications…

R: ...It could also be…

N: ...of why…

R: ...because she’s a kid, but…

N: ...That - that…

R: ...you know…

N: ...too. Um, I - I just think it has fun - fun real-world implications of why when you're arguing with yourself about something like - like there is a part of you that just doesn't think the same way and it's like we have to have this conversation and figure it out. [laughs] I don't know…

R: ...So…

N: ...that naming that part of you is super healthy, necessarily?

R: Yes.

N: But…

R: ...unless…

N: ...it’s funny…

R: ...it’s actually external and can turn in - and is an animal and you live in these books. Uh.

N: Right.

R: So, uh, so part of how - so for - for Pan part of um, his trauma is that he was separated from Lyra when they had literally been inseparable, and now this isn't the same as intercission. Um.

N: No, no no.

R: This is…

N: ...no…

R: ...this is the - the same process as how the witches end up with daemons that can go very, very far away from them. It's a similar thing. Lyra and Will…

N: ...It’s a stretching…

R: ...just went to a different place. Yeah, like a stretching of the bond.

N: Yeah.

R: It’s like magically, existentially, daemons cannot be here...

N: [laughs]

R: ...and so…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...when Will and Lyra go into this place they can't go with them, and it stretches the tie without breaking it, but it is an abandonment that up until now Pam thought was literally impossible…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and Kirjava is ripped into individual consciousness and being extant so - by this trauma and she remembers stuff from before…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...so it's not like her memory starts right now…

N: ...No…

R: ...which means that she remembers being in Will…

N: ...I…

R: ...and then being abandoned.

N: Uh, I think it's interesting too, that…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...Will - so Will does not - ah - does not see Kirjava before the separation. It's not…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...it's not something where it's like as they drive away on the riverbank... materializes, like no, uh.

(4:57)

R: Well actually…

N: ...Will doesn’t…

R: ...yeah, they are…

N: ...Will actually

R: ...two huddled figures…

N: ...has this…

R: ...on shore. Like…

N: ...But…

R: ...actually…

N: ...Will does not look at that and say “Oh I have a dad - I have a daemon,” like that doesn't…

R: ...Right, right…

N: ...happen. Um, so…

R: ...Rereading…

N: ...to Will…

R: ...we know what's up.

N: Right, so - so to Will there's this - there - there's like this whole conversation in the book where Will’s like, “Well, will I even notice like, will there even be a difference? Will I even have anything?” like…

R: ...Right…

N: …”I don't know a daemon,” like, “This - this'll - I’ll be fine right? Tell me…

R: ...and then he…

N: ...I’ll be fine,” and then he feels the - the sensation of this thing separating from him...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...and it's - I almost want to argue it's - it's almost worse because he didn't think it was gonna happen…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: … or - or part of him didn't - didn't know what would happen to him, that he…

R: ...Right…

N: ...thought he was gonna be different and then - and then - and then he isn't sure like he's like, “Well you know, how can I find,” - there's this moment later where he's like, “Well how can I find my - my piece of me when yours has legs, and will come get you, and like - and I…

R: ...Right…

N: ...what - do I even have that or is it gone forever?” like - it's a really brief moment, and I don't have the book in front of me, I can't find it but.

R: Yeah.

N: I remember that being a - that was a thing where he's like “Well, you know, phantom pant - uh panta…

R: ...Pantalaimon…

N: ...Pan can come back to you but how will I find my piece, you…

R: ...Right…

N: ...know.”

R: And of course he's saying it that awkwardly because - or similarly awkwardly…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...because he doesn't know the name Kirjava, and, yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: So they didn't - they kind of uh - they had to cross a bunch of worlds to get back to the kids because the way that Will and Lyra got out of that place was not the way that the daemons got out...

N: ...Oh yeah…

R: ...obviously…

N: …’cause they can't…

R: ...Right…

N: ...go through the same area at all, like that’s…

R: ...Right…

N: ...the whole point.

R: So they had to get back somehow and we canonically don't get told what happened and for the first time Pan has a secret from Lyra and so - and…

N: ...Oh yeah…

R: ...also…

N: ...that's - that's a thing too.

R: Mmhmm, for the very first time he has a secret because before…

N: ...There was no…

R: ...The only reason…

N: ...they always experienced…

R: ...there was a secret…

N: ...everything at the same time forever…

R: ...Right…

N: ...always.

R: Like if he…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...went to the end of the tether and saw something while he was at the end of the tether, technically he could have a secret for like 30 seconds before he went back to Lyra told her what it was because that's why he had gone that far, like…

N: ...Right…

R: ...almost definitely.

N: So I - I wanna - there's - I think personally that it's - a - a - okay, so we kind of pre-alked about this as being abandonment.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And it definitely reads um, in a way that - that just - it - it reads to me like Pan and Kirjava, it's almost like they have to get comfortable with the idea of depending on their - their person again…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...because they - there's a while in the book where they're close but they don't actually come back yet.

R: Yes.

N: That is - that - that reads almost like they have to kind of rebuild trust…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...but it's a trust that they didn't have to build in the first place because the building of it was the - was the living your life, it wasn't this separate concept. It's kind of a funky moment because the kids are kind of like, “Why - they're here, I can feel that they're here, why don't they come back to me? Why don't they…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...like, I'm alone and lonely without them. Why don't they come back?

R: “They must be lonely without me too.

N: “They must be” - right. “They have to be…

R: … “Why aren’t they here?”

N: ...lonely without me,” and - and - and it contextually clearly kind of reads to me as though it's because you left them. You abandoned them and so they have to kind of figure out like, “Well if we come back is it gonna hurt more?” [laughs]

(9:14)

R: Right, like if you, you know, if a parent, you know leaves their kids somewhere and is like “I'll definitely be back,” and then they don't come back for like two weeks, and the kid you know…

N: ...It’s an eternity…

R: ...does something else in the meantime and then the…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...parents are like, “I'm back!” It’s like…

N: ...Well, it’s - it’s…

R: ...no…

N: ...worse - it’s worse than that because…

R: ...I mean that’s the closest…

N: ...Pan is…

R: ...real world analogue I can think of, but yeah…

N: ...Oh, I’ve…

R: ...it is…

N: ...got a…

R: ...worse than that.

N: I've got another one. The parent says…

R: ...Oh…

N: …”Bye I'll never see you again,” and then you see them five years later. [laughs] Pan and - Pan and Kirjava were told “We may never see you because we might not survive, and you're just on your own, okay bye.”

R: Oh that's true but also if they…

N: ...It - it was…

R: ...don't survive…

N: ...it - it was…

R: ...they’ll die.

N: “I'll come back if I can,” it wasn't…

R: … “And it's possible you'll die without ever seeing me again.”

N: Yes, and so I think it's a - I think it's…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...even harsher.

R: Mmhmm.

N: And it's - yeah. I don't - I don't know, I don't really have much more to say it with that specifically.

R: Yeah.

N: But - but it's just this really - it's this really rough, really harsh, really like, “We've been together our whole lives and now you have to stay here and maybe I'll die and maybe you'll die too or…

R: ...Well, “If I die…

N: ...maybe…

R: ...you'll die too, you just will die without seeing me.”

N: Or even, “You'll die because we're separate and then that - I just lose you.”

R: Yeah.

N: I think there was a book discussion of that too and there's also - so I know that like the daemons and the…

R: ...I think they might have worried about it a little bit but it's very clear that canonically…

N: ...Oh no, no, no…

R: …’cause like we see…

N: ...I’m not saying canonically…

R: ...witches die…

N: ...that that was the stakes, I'm saying that for the children making this choice.

R: They're like “we don't know what’s up.” We don’t…

N: ...We don't know…

R: ...know…

N: ...what is gonna happen.”

R: Because they didn't know it was gonna be like the way that the witches get their…

N: ...No…

R: ...daemons…

N: ...no. They just knew that they couldn't take their daemons with them…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...and what does that…

R: ...and they didn’t know…

N: …mean…

R: ...if that would kill them or not.

N: Right, um, and also a - a lot of part of this book has been this whole - this whole severing of the daemon from the person, from the child and they've seen what that does.

R: Right.

N: And they don't know that this isn't severing. They don't know that this isn't…

R: They don't know it's not intercision, yeah.

N: Right, they don't know that it's not them choosing to take a knife and cut themselves, metaphorically. They don't know, and then it ends up being fine, like they - they…

R: ...Right…

N: ...didn't know that going in and so traumatically that is the thing that they're - they're kind of processing?

R: Yeah.

N: Uh.

R: They went in with uncertain stakes and so then even though they're back it's like, “You were willing to do this level to me, and though…

N: ...Right…

R: ...even though only this level happened I am still…

N: … “Like you were prepared…

R: ...mad…

N: ...for…

R: ...and I need time.”

N: Yeah.

R: Um, so I think that's it for Pan and Kirjava.

Topic 2: Lyra's kidnapping. Begins at (12:05), CW for repressed memories, kidnapping, torture, lying by omission, drugged sleep, loss of innocence. 

R: Alright, so this episode is gonna be a little different. We have - rather than one main topic, or two main topics on one character we have one topic each on our two main characters, Lyra and Will. So this is Lyra.

N: Yes, and we did still put this in order of escalation from our perspective.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, and…

R: ...well…

N: ...as best we could.

R: Yeah.

N: ‘Cause these are both really kind of awful.

R: They're both really kind of awful, understanding one is necessary for understanding the second one so Lyra…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...goes first.

N: Yeah.

R: [inhales] So she's kidnapped and drugged by her mother. Um, that's what happens. [laughs]

N: [laughs] That is what happened. She's kidnapped - kidnapped and drugged and kept in a cave for a while.

R: Yep.

N: Um.

R: She remembers it - after she wakes up she remembers it as like a positive thing and Will…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...doesn't tell her that it wasn't.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: We had a really long discussion about this…

R: ...prerecord…

N: ...prerecorded, [laughs] yeah. Um, and the one thing from that that I wanted to kind of bring back is that we, ah, talked about this idea that like we don't know why Will didn’t say - we don't know if Will was just not trying to inflict greater trauma on Lyra in the moment, or if he just doesn't know what to do and just doesn't say anything, or if he…

R: I think he said something about not wanting to ruin that memory because it's the only positive memory and interaction that she has with her mom, at all.

N: Oh yeah, that’s right. It's just…

R: ...Yeah, that's why.

N: But even - even that is like…

R: Even that's squicky.

N: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] If you - if you only have one positive moment and it's about the worst torture that the person gave you in your life, like I don't know.

R: Mmhmm.

N: I don't think that for me at least ,I don't think I would want that to remain a positive memory. I wouldn't want to think that that thing was positive in any way. I would want to…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...like, know that I have nothing and move on from that person and - and I guess - I guess like - I - I mean I don't get to make that call for the character obviously, or for anybody else but also I don't think Will has the right to make that call. Yeah.

N: Uh, like Will is kind of deciding that for Lyra in this moment and I…

R: ...It’s kind of a trolley problem. He's kind of going through a trolley problem because…

N: ...Oh yeah…

R: ...if he knows nothing, if he disrupts nothing she remembers something that isn't what happened but if he does…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...something, he will hurt her.

N: Yes. I don't…

R: ...And he…

N: ...know…

R: ...decides to…

N: ...He de - he de…

R: ...he decides he doesn't have…

N: ...He decides to just…

R: ...the right to do something.

N: He decides to not be responsible for the pain that she's feeling, but in doing that like he's not absolving him of a decision. He's making a decision, and he's - he is choosing by definition, and I - I don't know, I just - I really - like... if someone did that to me and I found out…

R: ...Oh yeah.

N: Oof. If someone did that to me and I found out I would be - I would be hyper upset, um, and - just because - and not even because like, the thing that they were concealing is traumatic but like, the fact that they decided that they could pick the pa - the path that was better for me like, their decision was to remove my decision…

R: ...Right…

N: ...that would be awful.

(15:42)

R: Yup.

N: I would probably be done with that person. [laughs] Like that's not an…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...exaggeration.

R: And we kind of have like three Lyra's going on. We have the version of her that like, is trying to wake up physically and - and…

N: ...Oh, yeah…

R: ...fights her, and then we have the one that's talking to ghosts while she is asleep…

N: [laughs]

R: ...and then we have after she wakes up and…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...uh, doesn't remember and so Will doesn't know whether…

N: ...That’s true…

R: ...to honor the version that he doesn't really get to see very much. He sees a little bit of, where she's trying to wake up and doesn't want to be there, but then at the end of it he's with the version that is like “I remember her stroking my hair,” and he's like, “Oh, okay. I don't know what to do,” and…

N: Yeah. That is - that is actually I think the thing that bothers me the most about this. Like he saw how much that hurt her…

R: ...Right…

N: ...and still decided like, “No, you don't get a chance to heal from that. We'll leave you your - your miss - your misinformation.”

R: I think he thought…

N: ...Like that’s the part that bugs me is like, if she doesn't know - it's not - it - it's not that it's gonna go away just because she doesn't know, like, that's what repressed memories do.

R: Right.

N: They come back and kick you and you don't know why because you just don't remember the start. It's not that you move on.

R: Right.

N: And…

R: ...He…

N: ...yeah…

R: ...might have felt like telling her would be him hurting her.

N: But it's not - it's - that's the thing is like it's not. It's not…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...him doing it. It's just that he's the only one that knows that it happened.

R: Yeah.

N: I don’t know.

R: So since…

N: ...It’s just gross…

R: ...this is a Lyra segment…

N: …[laughs] Oh, I mean - that's - yeah we…

R: ...and not...

N: ...should get back to Lyra…

R: …”Will part one”, what are we thinking about what it does to Lyra?

N: What does it do to Lyra when she doesn't even know?

R: Well it does something…

N: [laughs]

R: ...which i think is part of our point…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...because…

N: ...Okay...

R: ...she is like, terrified and…

N: ...Oh yeah…

R: ...trying - struggling and trying to wake up and, just you know, sweat soaking through her clothes. She is not okay.

N: Yeah.

R: She's not okay. She's kept asleep for weeks and - and it's not like her, you know consciousness while she's asleep is having, like, a great time either.

N: No.

R: It’s like “I'm stuck somewhere. I can't get out. It's plot-related. I gotta go do things with MacGuffin and stuff,” but she's stressed out while she's asleep. She's stressed out while she's briefly awake in between being drugged, and then at the end of it it's like, “Well? At least she cared about me,” and we're like “No!”

N: No she didn’t.

R: No. No she didn't. You could have been a doll. You could have been a Lyra shaped doll child…

N: [sighs]

R: ...for her to take care of for all that it had anything to do with how you are.

N: Mmhmm. She's possessive and controlling, not caring and…

R: Yeah.

N: [sighs] This is actually one of those questions where if I had a chance to ask the author I would want to know like “Why did you make it so the Lyra couldn't remember? Not - and not just why couldn't - why she couldn't remember but like why did…

R: ...well…

N: ...you make it so that she thought this was positive?”

(19:11)

R: Mechanistically, uh she didn't - she wasn't awake long enough for things to make it into her long-term memory, just…

N: ... I guess, yeah.

R: There's that and then, who remembers their dreams? Like, so you've got two different things where the easiest way to handle it is she doesn't remember and then all she's left with is the sensation of her mother brushing her hair which should…

N: ...But that’s the thing…

R: ...be a nice thing - yeah and she's not really like, questioning it. She - she oh - oh the - here's the other part, she thinks she was actually sick and her mom rescued her. She doesn't know she was drugged. So she thinks…

N: ...Mmmm…

R: … “I was…

N: ...true…

R: ...ill. My mom took care of me for three weeks.” She doesn't know. She doesn't remember…

N: ...Eck [disgusted sound]…

R: ...that it was inflicted on her by her mom and I think that's part of the difference, and also for this - these books being about the loss of innocence, this moment is Will deciding not to inflict loss of innocence on her.

N: See that's where I like - I disagree with Will’s decision. [laughs]

R: Oh no I’m not saying it's a - I'm not saying it's the right decision…

N: ...Oh no…

R: ...but that definitely seems to be the motiviation…

N: ...I know you’re not…

R: ...the motivation.

N: Um, but it - it does seem like - like that innocence has been lost…

R: ..Already, yeah…

N: ...already on all you're doing is just prolonging how much it hurts later.

R: Yeah.

N: I get like - yeah.

R: Yeah, this one's [sighs] a little shorter. I think that's all we have for this, it's just, um, it's hard to have a lot for someone not doing something.

N: I mean, it's hard to have a lot for something you don't remember, um.

R: Yeah but I think it's very important to say just because she doesn't remember doesn't mean it didn't hurt her and…

N: ...and doesn’t mean…

R: ...we…

N: ...it didn’t happen…

R: ...don't like that Will took away her choice about…

N: ...No…

R: ...what to do about it, because if he had just said “You weren't sick, she drugged you,” that's all he would have to say.

N: Yeah, and…

R: ...He would be…

N: ...like he doesn’t…

R: ...good…

N: ...have to go into eviscerating detail. He doesn't have to metaphorically pick her up and shove her into the thing, like all he has to do was just... not agree.

R: Right.

N: When she's like “This was awesome,” all he had to do is it was say…

R: … “You were only there because she drugged you”...

N: … “You were only there...

R: …doesn’t...

N: ... because she drugged you. She lied about you being sick.” That's it. He wouldn't have to take away - oh he wouldn't have to be like, “Well she didn't brush your hair,” ‘cause she did.

N: Yeah.

R: But like…

N: ...He doesn't have to - he doesn’t have to…

R: ...the meaning is…

N: ...force…

R: ...different…

N: ...her to feel a certain way about it, he just has to - he - all he had to do was be honest with her and then she can figure out what to do, and if she wants to run away from it at that point that's her call.

R: Mmhmm.

N: But the fact that she didn't get to - the - the fact that - that he - he lied - he decided to lie by omission to her or explicitly? Did he just say - I don't remember if he agreed or if he just didn't…

R: ...I think…

N: ...disagree…

R: ...she - ah, if I remember correctly he didn't correct her when she referred to it as her mom taking care of her while she was sick.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: But I mean - but the fact that like, I don't know. It's just, uh.

R: Yeah.

N: We're not usually talking about things that our main characters do that we dislike, but I guess here we are.

R: Thus far we have books when we like our main characters but with this one, Will you did the wrong thing.

N:Yeah. [laughs]

R: But also he's 12, so like having to make that decision is a lot of weight. Uh.

N:That is true.

Topic 3: Will and death. Begins at (22:45), CW for parental death, suicide, murder, discussion of gaslighting. 

R: ...Speaking of decisions Will needs to make, alright.

N: Last but not least!

R: Will - so we didn't mention it last episode because it happens in like the last three pages, Will's father get - gets killed in front of him. So then this book is the aftermath of that event and him trying to deal with it.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: We…[sighs]

R: He’s gone to his dad thinking his dad's gonna fix everything. he's gonna be an adult who can - an adult who can guide him after he's been taking care of his mom for forever, and - an - and he - he's killed in the moment that they realize who each other are, and…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and then he's just gotta deal with it…

N: ...Well and especially if…

R: ...So…

N: ...you juxtaposition our topic from episode - almost at episode 1 from the first episode of the series from the “Golden Compass” where Will has spent his whole life being the grown-up taking care of his mom, and there's some - there's some text from - from the Golden Compass that essentially kind of highlights, you know he's hoping that his dad will just be the first adult he can depend on, ever…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...and then it's - it's grabbed from him as he realizes that it could be true, and that's just - that's harsh.

(24:14)

R: Yeah, it's…

N: ...Especially as an ending of a book goes that’s a pretty cool - pretty climactic ending. It was pretty, uh, interesting ending.

R: Yeah, and then now - I mean the person who kills him kills herself and…

N: ...Right, so there's…

R: ...so he’s…

N: ...no - there’s no closure, there's no end, there’s no revenge, there's no nothing. There's just this…

R: ...Right…

N: ...void. [sighs].

R: ‘Cause I - I think in another book this would have been like the start of the quest to get his father's murderer.

N: Yes.

R: And…

N: …Yeah…

R: ...it’s not. It…

N: ...No…

R: ...it can't be.

N: [laughs] Yeah.

R: She was upset because he jilted her. She killed him, she killed herself because she didn't want to live without him, done.

N: And…

R: ...That’s it, just…

N: ...scene. [laughs]

R: That's it. Ah, and - uh, so he - and then because he still is a killer, like, and he's trying to find Lyra because as we mentioned she's kidnapped.

N: ...Yeah.

R: He's trying to find Lyra. He doesn't have time to stop and process what happened. He's got to keep going because she's still…

N: ...He’s going…

R: ...missing…

N: … “Keep on the mission. Keep working toward the goal,” this whole time.

R: [sighs]

N: Yeah, for Will it's like this non-stop, not even a roller coaster, just this non-stop marathon where he can't walk ever, and he just has to keep running.

R: It's like every time he gets somewhere, someone's like no, no, no. The stop’s two miles ahead.

N: Yeah [laughs], right.

R: One mile…

N: ...Like [laughs]...

R: ...ahead, three miles ahead. No matter where he goes it's never far enough.

N: Like, “Oh that guy told you that you can get water here? Nah buddy you got another two kilometers,” like, “We moved it on you.”

R: Yeah.

N: Constantly moving the goalposts. It's almost like a narrative - it's not a - okay. I'm gonna say this and it's gonna sound…

R: ...Okay…

N: ...funky. It's almost a narrative, plot, gaslighting at the character.

R: Ooh. Okay, say more, elaborate.

N: Okay, so I don't mean that the book is gaslighting the reader.

R: Okay. ‘Cause we know what's up.

N: We know what's up but for Will, it's like, “Here's the world. Nope, just kidding. Nope, you were wrong. We didn't say that.”

R: I mean we talked about that a little bit with, like, the…

N: ...We did…

R: ...the ricochet with figuring out what's going on with his mom but I…

N: ..Yeah…

R: ...guess this is happening on a bigger scale with everything he knows about.

N: Yes, it's like - it - it's just - it's just over and over. So yeah, so I don't - I do not think that it is gaslighting but I - I do think that there are just a lot of instances where Will has this - it - because it's not that Will is just finding out that the world is different than he thought.

R: Right.

N: That's not what's happening. What's happening is when he finds out that it's different he has somebody there almost every time who basically is like, “Of course…

R: ...So I…

N: ...How could you feel this way? How could you think this way? Why would you entertain that notion? Why didn't you know?” And…

R: ...Right…

N: ...and…

R: So I don't think it's nearly as extreme as gaslighting…

N: ...No…

R: …’cause a part of…

N: ...it's not…

R: ...gaslighting is that you're trying to break someone's world down and make them feel crazy. I think…

N: ...Right…

R: ...this is just him butting up against adults having very, very different motives and they're all …

N: ...And they’re inflicting them on him…

R: ...trying to push him to do things that fit their own motive and they want him.

(27:42)

R: It’s like, it'd be nice if he had the same motive as them because then he would just do what they want, but whether or not he does they're just gonna push him to try and get them to do stuff. That's actually - that is actually the thing that makes me think it - it's not - again I'm not saying it's - I'm not saying it is gaslighting, but pushes it to that.

R: It’s why it resonated like that.

N: Yes, but I'm - I’m saying like that is the thing that shoves it in that - it…

R: ...Direction?

N: ...it shoves it in that direction because it is deliberate on the part of the adults.

R: Yeah.

N: That's the thing, like they're not trying to gaslight him but they are trying to push him their direction and... they want him to not argue about it.

R: And like the - and like even his dad did it.

N: Yeah.

R: Like…

N: Yeah.

R: He - his dad tries to make him do something other than rescue Lyra. He's breaking someone's dying wish to him…

N: ...Yes…

R: ...to - and breaking word he gave to a dying man and tells Will to do something else and then Wills ends up being like, “Nah, I'm gonna go find Lyra.”

N: [laughs] Like “actually…

R: ...But also that means he’s…

N: ...unlike…

R: ...he's torn…

N: ...you I care”

R: He’s torn between his dying - his father's dying wish and his friend, and because he's known his father for two minutes he picks Lyra, but that's gotta be rough ‘cause this is supposed to be the person he thought was gonna guide him. And then he - I think - yeah I think we should go a little bit on this because, like that was supposed to be the person who's gonna guide him and then they died immediately and he doesn't follow what he understands to be his father's dying wish. Um, and that's got to be rough. There's no like, take-back. No “sorry”. No “Nah I didn't do …

N: ...No…

R: ...what I told me to do but here's why.”

N:No

R: Just…

N: ...Just…

R: ...nothing…

N: ...just nothing. Yeah it's just this - I don't know I think - I think part of the difference too is like Lyra - Lyra's goal and like her sense of - of why she's doing this thing is…

R: ...It’s very well grounded.

N: It is. It's much more grounded than Will’s and also Lyra's goal depends on nobody other than Lyra. Will’s goal requires that someone else support and validate him in specific ways and so…

R: ...Right…

N: ...for Lyra, someone telling her like, “You're wrong kiddo.” She's like, “Alright…

R: ...That's nice dear…

N: ...and?” Yeah. Yes, she's like, “Okay, your point?” For Will that's like, “Oh no my reality! My hopes, my dreams!” uh.

R: ‘Cause like, just like book 1 Lyra was trying to like, rescue her friend. She failed at rescuing her friend and so now she's gotta fix the stuff adults did that made her not rescue her friend.

N: Right, right but her rescuing her…

R: Will…

N: ...friend was something she was trying to do. She wasn't…

R: ...Right…

N: ...looking for someone to rescue her friend for her.

R: Right, and yeah, so then she's like, “Well stuff is messed up. The grown-ups are not gonna do anything. I've got to fix it.”

N: Right.

R: Will needs to get out of where he is. He's very much - Will’s very much running from things and Lyra is running to things. Yeah, that's a good way of - yeah.

R: Yeah. And then Will finally has something to run toward and that thing is Lyra.

Spoiler-free wrap-up and ratings. Begins at (31:10).

R: time for the wrap-up and ratings.

R: Alright for the gratuity rating for the minor character spotlight with Kirjava and Pan. Was this mostly backstory, off screen, like - this was off screen.

N: This - this was…

R: ...Alternating between moderate and off screen I'd say maybe?

N: Oh I was gonna actually say mild and off screen.

R: Okay, mild an off screen.

N: Yeah.

R: It was most - I guess it's mostly in the implications.

N: Yeah, uh there's - there's very little of them being specifically have - describing things and more just like the audience kind of going “Oh okay.”

R: Yeah.

N: Yeah.

R: [sighs] Lyra being kidnapped. Um, that…

N: ...This…

R: ...is [sighs].

N: I feel like - I feel like this is gonna be one of those where the more you pay attention to the implications the more severe it feels, but it's definitely moderate. It's definitely not - it's not…

R: [sighs]

N: ...mild.

R: Oh it's not mild, I just…

N: ...No, it’s not mild…

R: ...I think some of what um - I think some of what the neutral party observer sees of the situation kicks it up to severe.

N: Mmm.

R: Uh.

N: Mmhmm. Mmkay.

R: Yeah, the - the village kid, like…

N: Oof.

R: I - I yeah. I think what they see kicks it up, so I'd go with, it alternates between off-screen and severe. Like it dips into moderate but like, this is rough.

N: Yeah.

R: The - the ceiling is …

N: ...Moderate…

R: ...nature of - the ceiling is the nature of the event not how it's described.

N: Yeah, yeah, okay.

(33:03)

N: So Will dealing with the - the death that happens.

R: Yes.

N: Okay, um. I feel like this is severe.

R: Mmhmm. Yeah.

N: We have actually descriptions of it in the text, and how…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...it's happening.

R: Technically those were in the last book but just dealing with the aftermath of it…

N: ...Oh…

R: ...is…

N: ...oh yeah, but even like in that moment in the book like…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...it's described. It's not just “Oh it happened,” um.

R: Yeah.

N: So I think that that definitely kicks it up to severe.

R: Yeah, both the specific death and the lots-more-other-deaths that it keeps dealing with.

N: Yeah [laughs] [coughs]

R: Yep. That's severe.

R: Uh, alright with Kirjava and Pan, it is integral to the plot.

N: Absolutely.

R: It's extremely important like, you couldn’t…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...if you did something else it's a different book. There’s not really more to say about that.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, uh.

N: Lyra.

R: Lyra.

N: I feel like, I feel like this is actually interchangeable.

R: [sighs] I would go all the way to irrelevant, actually.

N: [laughs] Really? You don't think that…

R: ...Really…

N: ...Will needed a - a thing to choose from? I think he needed to have a choice, and I think it…

R: ...I think…

N: ...it needed to have something…

R: ...all Lyra…

N: ...strong enough…

R: ...needed…

N: ...to pull…

R: ...to do was…

N: ...away.

R: I think all Lyra needed to do was be somewhere else.

N: That’s…

R: ...They got separated, she made a decision to be somewhere else, that's all that needed to happen.

N: Oh but it didn't have…

R: ...And…

N: ...to be traumatic.

R: Didn't have to be traumatic, didn't have to be this. It could be as something simple as they got chased and there's two doors to worlds and they went through different ones, that's all it had to be.

N: Okay. That…

R: ...in order…

N: ...makes sense…

R: ...to fill the same thing in the plot. I - it is…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...between interchangeable and irrelevant.

N: I - I - alright, that makes sense. I'm just putting irrelevant…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...because - yeah.

R: Yep. Uh.

N: I mean I…

R: ...Then…

N: ...will say this though, I know that this isn't - okay. I'm gonna try and say this is spoiler [coughs] - spoiler free as possible. I almost think it might still - okay, I want to make an argument for interchangeable again.

R: Okay.

N: I think that this particular thing might not have served a “Will and Lyra” narrative purpose, but I think as far as wrapping up Miss Coulter's narrative timeline, this might be interchangeable, because …

R: ...Okay…

N: ...I - I do think that if Miss Coulter had just *poof* vanished with nothing, that would leave a gaping narrative hole of “When is she coming back? Why is she not in the finale? What is going on?” and - and…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...this serves to nicely kind of wrap up her storyline and give her a reason to not be a threat anymore.

R: But this isn't the last time we see her, and I think…

N: ...Oh it’s not?

R: It’s not.

N: Oh.

R: No.

N: Then never mind, just kidding, it's irrelevant. [laughs]

R: Nope, there's a whole - she's got…

N: ...Forgot about that…

R: ...plot to wrap up with her ex-husband, and so, this is not the last time we see her. I - I would argue that it isn't - if it is interchangeable it is interchangeable with a non traumatic event.

N: So…

R: ...Which to me…

N: ...the whole - the whole point…

R: ...makes it irrelevant…

N ...that makes it irrelevant, yeah, ‘cause the trauma did not have to happen, okay. Alright. Uh, I forgot that we saw her again. This wasn't the end of her timeline. [laughs]

R: Nope, not the end of her timeline. Not…

N: ...Oh…

R: ... the last thing.

(36:45)

N: Okay, um, Will and death. This is super integral.

R: It is very integral. Um, the main thing is integral. The ancillary deaths are interchangeable by their very nature but I don't think that's a bad thing.

N: Right, but the trauma itself.

R: Different mooks could have died and it would be fine.

N:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: So treated with care.

R: “Mook” being a generic term for nameless bad guy.

N: [laughs].

R: Um.

N: Yeah. Um.

R: So, trauma - treated with care. For, uh [sighs], Pan and Kirjava, yes. so much care, all the care, very well done, yes.

N: Lyra.

R: Definitely.

R: Lyra, uh [sighs].

N: Egh.

R: No. I don't…

N: [laughs] None?

R: I don’t…

N: ...Zero?

R: It's not zero…

N: ...It’s not…

R: ...I just…

N: ...zero…

R: ...I guess…

N: ...but it's definitely a no.

R: I think this - this thing feeling pointless contributes to me not feeling like it was done carefully ‘cause if it'd been done carefully it wouldn't be in there.

N: Well I mean…

R: ...I know that's a little unfair…

N: ...There…

R: ...but…

N: ...there's more than that though, I would argue.

R: Yeah.

N: I would say that it's - it's true - it's not treated with care, not only because it was just kind of thrown in, but - I mean I wasn't just thrown in, but like it's not…

R: ...There’s no…

N: ...relevant to the plot, but also it was described very viscerally. There's this…

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...you - you see the aftermath of the things in ways that are just kind of…

R: ...Yeah, you’ve got…

N: ...fridge horror-y, like, um.

R: You’ve got all kinds of mood whiplash and how it's described...

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...and on who’s seeing it.

N: Yes. There's just - there's a lot of visceral imagery in various ways, um.

R: Yeah.

N: And you know [sighs] - and - and if you're reading it and you're not paying very much attention to it, it's - like it's still weird. It's not just this thing that’ll just slide by because the way it was described, no it's - it's there and it's doesn't actually help the plot, nesc... in a way that we could pick up on, and it's just incredibly specific in how it is talked about, and - and - and not specific in like, someone was intentional, but like specific in - in traumatically specific description ways. So, yeah, not - not treated with care at - at all, um

R: Or definitely not enough. It just - it just feels so careless.

N: I'm just gonna go with it…

R: ...Um…

N: ...wasn't. [laughs].

R: Yeah.

N: [laughs] For - for all those…

R: ...Point of…

N: ...an - any one of our reasons would have kicked it to not enough, but all of them…

R: ...Mmhmm…

N: ...combined I think kicks it to just “not”.

R: Yeah.

(39:39)

R: Point of view for Pan and Kirjava. Uh, it is not their point of view and that is the point.

N: Yes! Wait.

R: And it's - yeah.

N: We skipped one.

R: Wait - what?

N: Will and death.

R: Oh I'm sorry, yes. Uh, Will and death, uh I think - I think this - I think it was enough care. It's - it's a shocking thing told shockingly like part of the point of it feels like the alternation…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...between something intense and then just nothing. Just a gap with dealing with it and…

N: ...Well and it's a…

R: ...um…

N: ...subject where - I honestly feel like if it was treated with any more care it would become careless...

R: ...Right…

N: ...in this…

R: ...like it …

N: ...depiction…

R: ...wasn’t…

N: ...like you have to. It has to have a certain level of imagery. It has to have a certain level of understanding in the reader for it to even be helpful.

R: It's not gory but it's impactful.

N: Yes.

R: I would say.

N: That's a good way to put it…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...yeah.

R: Alright. Then - sorry, now it is the point of view for the minor character spotlight. Um, it is not their perspective and that's the point.

N: Yes.

R: Um, because they've never had their own perspective before, and so - yeah I just - yeah it's - it's - it's separate and it makes a lot of sense and it kind of teases us with “maybe there will be a short story about what they did some day.” I haven't checked to see whether there is.

N: Yeah.

R: Um, that's the vibe I got from it is…

N: [laughs]

R: … “I have reserved the right to write a tiny book later.”

N: [laughs] “I have reserved myself as a slot in my - [laughs] my own - my own universe.”

R: Yeah.

(41:37)

R: Lyra, the point of view - we get the point of view of the Lyra who won't remember it and I don't like that.

N: I [laughs] - not technically part of our rating but I agree. [laughs] Um.

R: ‘Cause this - this gives us [sighs] - this gives us the point of view of people who don't know anything about it, people who do know…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...something about it and then three different versions of Lyra and their - they conflict…

N: ...Drastically…

R: ...because of the nature of memory, they don't…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...interact with each other and they don't have the same take on it, and then one of them just is right by dint of the way memory works, and we talked about this more in the specific breakdown, and I - it's just - ‘cause we've - we’ve talked about before sometimes it's important when you have the perspective of someone going through the trauma and the perspective of someone inflicting it and all that kind of stuff.

N: Yes.

R: This doesn't - this…

N: ...This isn’t that.

R: This isn't that, it's just it's - it's not too many views but it's like mostly the…

N: It's not too many views but it's very conflicting views and it's conflicting in a way that feels squicky and like not…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...not very um, what's the word, and not very…

R: it's not respectful, it's not careful. It's just like…

N: ...Yeah, not very conducive to - to healing…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...um, and - and for the aftermath we just get Will.

R: Yeah.

N: Basically.

R: Oh that’s true, yeah. We - we - we don't even get her perspective for the aftermath. We get…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...Will talking to her about it.

N: Yeah, and…

R: ...And that’s it…

N: ...and if you - if you did listen to our segment you'll know why we don't like that. [laughs] there are some specific reasons why that is awful. Um.

R: Yeah.

(43:47)

N: Okay, moving on.

R: And then, [sighs] for Will’s event, the point of view, it is Will’s point of view very consistently. We don't really ever have the points of view…

N: ...like anybody else…

R: ...of - yeah…

N: ...at all.

R: And we don't really have opening up - anybody else's. Both the main death, we just…

N: ...It's just him…

R: ...um, yeah.

N: Yep.

R: And I don't know if that's good or bad. It's fine, it's there.

N: I mean…

R: ...It’s how they did it…

N: ...we’re not - we - we don't really want to say good or bad for most of these. It's just that…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...we're just giving what they are. Um, it's just that…

R: ...I just have strong….

N: ...one…

R: ...feelings…

N: ...just…

R: ...about Lyra’s thing…

N: Yeah, that one just like - ugh. [laughs]

R: Um, but…

N: ...um, and - and…

R: ...with Will…

N: ...I do want to - I do want to, real quick, um saying that we don't like it doesn't mean that we…

R: ...Doesn't mean we don't like the book. It doesn't mean we think it's…

N: ...Doesn't mean we…

R: ...overall…

N: ...don't like…

R: ...bad.

N: Right. It doesn't mean we think the book is bad, doesn't mean - we think the author did something awful. It's just that it - it is this moment in the book that it's just really like not - not…

R: ...Just…

N: ...great…

R: ...doesn’t sit right.

N: No.

R: Yeah.

N: Um.

R: But as to the point of view for Will, um it’s…

N: ...It's just him…

R: ...it’s just his perspective and that's just how it is.

N: And that's fine.

R: Yeah, yep.

(45:14)

R: Uh.

N: Um.

R: Aspiring writer tip.

N: Hmm, hmmm. I…

R: Well one thing that this does…

N: ...Well I mean I guess we could go back to what we were just talking about.

R:Yeah, like it…

N: ...Like that you can have moments in your book - like your book doesn't have to be this easy nice clean read.

R: No…

N: ...Like it…

R: ...it doesn't.

N: Like it's okay to have moments that your readers are just like, “Egh.” Like that's - that's oh - that's okay, that's fine. But - but there - but the - I think the one thing - I do think the one thing though that we - that made this moment something that we just actively disliked it's the fact, like we were saying like it felt irrelevant.

R: Right, and…

N: ...Like you can have…

R: ...it’s going...

N: ...a moment in your book…

R: ...to be…

N: ...that are gross, that are awful, that are terrible moments, but…

R: ...They need to…

N: ...they have to…

R: ...be relevant.

N: If they don't feel relevant to your readers then it kind of - it’s kind of feel like this, “Well why did you make me feel this way? Like what was the point of…

R: ...Right…

N: ...that if it didn't even do anything for the characters then why did you put me, the reader through that.”

R:Right.

N: Um, ‘cause it would be very different if that was a awful - ‘cause we've had this in other books that we've - we’ve…

R: ...Oh yeah…

N: … had this moment before where we had this moment where we’re just like, “Oh I was terrible and absolutely necessary,” like and okay it's fine moving on, but like there's this double whammy in this particular book of, Ew, ow,” and “[sighs] That didn't even matter did it?”

R: No, yeah.

N: And it…

R: If you can swap something out with a non traumatic thing and have the same impact in your story or near as makes no difference, maybe have a non traumatic thing? Like.

N: I mean…

R: ...It’s okay…

N: ...I don't want to go that far.

R: Well…

N: ...I don't want to…

R: ...yeah, but…

N: ...go that far…

R: ...just…

N: ...I just - because there's a big difference between having a…

R: ...You want the…

N: ...traumatic moment versus your reader feeling like it was.

R: I suppose yeah, just the way this was handled.

N: Yeah. It’s…

R: ...So if…

N: ...it’s - the way it was…

R: ...if you're…

N: ...handled…

R: ...gonna have something - if you’re gonna have something traumatic please make it matter to the plot.

N: If you're gonna have something that feels that way to the reader, please make it matter to the plot. [laughs] Yeah, ‘cause - ‘cause there's - there's books that - I mean I - some of these books I really love they just have things happening to the characters all the time forever, but - but they don't make me as the reader feel like “I'm sitting through this thing and it's pointless.”

(47:49)

R: Alright, uh, favorite non traumatic thing about the book. I really like the Mulefa. The Mulefa are great. They make me really, really, really hope that the miniseries is good. I haven't seen it yet.

N: Oh.

R: Um.

N: I didn't know there was a miniseries.

R: Yeah there's a miniseries. It's part of why this was on my mind to do these books.

N: Oh. [laughs]

R:Yeah. Uh, the Mulefa are awesome, and I - I - I love how - I love how, like, their culture is and how like their world is and, you know, diamond-shaped spines and diamond-shaped frames instead of spines. It's just like, you did something really cool and really different and I really appreciate it and it's done well and the characters are interesting and, yep. I just, I like that whole world and all the stuff with Mary and the Mulefa is good.

N: [sighs]

R: What's yours?

N: For me, I really like Lyra and Will’s communication.

R: Uh huh.

N: I really like that this isn't a series and a book that's just characters internally monologuing and then they go off and do things that just happened to coincide with each other and the plot happens. I really enjoy that they sit down and talk strategy and figure out plans, and they're still kids and…

R: ...Plans aren't made off-screen. You get to see it, yeah.

N: Yeah, yeah, and - and it's - it does not feel like I'm hearing the plan and then living the plan and the plan just happens twelve times. It doesn't feel like that. It feels like they're making a plan, which may or may not work out but that's okay that's how plans work, and that's how life happens, and they are - it's not one of them dictating to the other. Um, and I - and I - I like this especially because both kids grew up in wildly different environments but grew up in environments that were very isolating, and grew up in environments where they were the only one that they can depend on, and the fact that they are coming to depend on each other and work out goals and methods and - and plans with each other that they then enact is just - it's really good and it's really cool and honestly, it's a thing that, um, in real life [laughs] can be very stressful to try and - and do with somebody.

(50:42)

N: Because even if - even if you guys are both, you know, pretty decent at - at doing this thing, if you don't communicate in ways that are complimentary it can be still really - be really hard. You still have to kind of work it out individually with people in your life and so - and - and - and - and - and I think that's part of why it tends to not be - that coupled with the whole like an author doesn't want you to experience the same thing over and over and over - they're trying to - they're trying to do new plot things and not just repeat the same words, um. I think those two combine to mean that this is something we don't really see on screen in a lot of books. A lot of times you'll have like, “And then they planned into the night, and then chapter 2.” Or, there will be a reference while the action is going that's like, “Remember the plan. Go back after...

R: ...You’re like, “What plan? We didn’t just…

N: ...go left”…

R: ...plan.”

N: Yeah, exactly but in this book I think it was done very, very well in a way that just really emphasizes how much they respect each other and trust each other and, have good communication with each other, and they don't railroad each other into decisions and they don't try and, change plans last minute because “We agreed but it's not what *I* wanted to do,” like there's none of that. None of the conflict in these books are because these two kids are like kicking each other in the head. None of that.

R: Oh yeah, like…

N: ...Ever.

R: Like no. Like…

N: ...Does not happen…

R: ...I hate - I hate “act 3, they've lied to each other.”

N: Yeah! [laughs]."

R: Like I hate…

N: ...Yeah…

R: ...I hate that 5 act structure.

N: [laughs]

R: Like.

N: Yeah, and there's - there's zero moments of that here.

R: Yeah.

N: It's…

R: ...It’s…

N: ...just facts…

R: ...fine….

N: ...there’s a lot of moments where it's “Other people have lied to me and you didn't.” There is - there's a lot of that but - but there's “You didn't and now let's be - let's be healthy, and - and wholesome…

R: ...Yeah…

N: ...with our interactions,” and also - also it is that without them being anything romantic to each other.

R:Mmmm.

N: It's just a healthy…

R: ...Uh…

N: ...consistent…

R: ...sss….

N: ...friendship.

R: For 99% of the book yes.

N: For 99% of the book, but that's - that's the part that matters to me. [laughs]

R: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

N: Um.

R: Okay.

N: Be - because the whole - I mean the whole point of the book is that they're prepubescent children and they're growing…

R: ...Yes…

N: ...up, like yeah. Um, and, yeah so that's just - this is not a thing for - for most of the book and - and it's - it's kind of - like I said like, it's kind of rare to see good depictions of that without any of the other stuff.

Outro: Begins at 53:23.

[Musical Interlude]

R: All music used in this podcast was created by Nicole as HeartBeatArt Co and is used with permission.

N: You can follow us on Twitter @BooksThatBurn (all one word).

R: You can email us with questions, comments, or book recommendations at booksthatburn@yahoo.com.

N: ...support us on Patreon.com/booksthatburn, all Patrons get access to our upcoming book list and receive a one-time shoutout.

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N: ...and find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, or wherever you get your podcasts.

R: Thanks for listening, we’ll be back in two weeks.