On this week's episode we will be discussing “Uglies” by Scott Westerfeld. We will follow Tally's journey through triumphs and peril as she struggles to find her place in what society wants to make of her.

N: Hi I'm Nicole.

R: And I'm Robin, and this is Books That Burn, where we are discussing “Uglies”, book one of the Uglies quartet by Scott Westerfeld, and let's get into our factions. For our main character we have Tally Youngblood, and her parents Ellie and Sol, best friend Peris, new best friend Shay. We have Dr. Cable, David, Maddie, Avis and Croy, and then random other uh, ancillary characters… 

R: …but first let's move to our minor character spotlight on David, David losing his home. This one - so part of why we're taking the time to talk about this is because we don't get very much detail on it, but it is a very major topic, and since we're talking about how works handle trauma…

N: …Mmhmm…

R: …this very major trauma not getting a lot of play in the book we felt was important to discuss.

N: Well and - and es - particularly, the way it doesn't get very much play. It - it could absolutely have been handled processed, but the author deliberately chose to have this character almost refuse to process this trauma. This - this character actively pushes away the narrative that this trauma is happening to them in an almost - almost emotionally brutal kind of just refusal to - to deal.

R: Yeah, even to the point where when Tally basically lies to these kids about, you know, saying that the smoke, “Oh you know, it just like disbands every few years and then comes back together in a new place,” he uh - David basically says that he - he wishes that that were true, and like it's a lie. It - it got burned down.

N: [laughs]

R: Uh, this…

N: …Yeah…

R: …was the only place he'd ever known, even more so than like, Tally has kind of a “You can't go back home again,” thing but…

N: …Yeah…

R: …by the time we meet her…

N: …But Tally…

R: …she's living in at least…

N: …could go home…

R: …the second building she's ever lived in, like, so there - there's a different difference and a kind of a permanence if you have only lived in one building ever, and one - one place and then it's - it's gone, and everyone who was there is gone. So.

N: Yeah, and - and he there's - there's some key pivotal moments where he says things like - well, so his parents had uh, essentially a - a safety cache of stuff for if and when something terrible were to happen, and he says when he's like taking Tally over to like pick up their things so they can survive, he says something along the lines of like, “I used to spend - I've spent so many hours,” or “I used to spend so much time in here picturing what would happen when I would need these things, it's almost like I caused it to happen.” Like he's - he's starting out with - he's - he starts out with, “My parents are fine we just have to go rescue them. Eh, our house is really fine. Oh, this is actually okay because I basically caused it anyway,” like it's almost a denial with a hint of like…

R: A little bit of fatalism.

N: A little bit of fatalism, a little bit of like self-blame fatalism…

R: …Mhmm..

N: …going in there. But in all of this, he hasn't - he hasn't even acknowledged that things could be gone. It - it's almost like…

R: …Yeah…

N: …he's talking about like, “Of course they're gonna be gone. Eh, I didn't lose it yet.” Like it's - it's just this really in your face kind of just pushing aside of this reality and a refusal to handle it, and - and we also don't - we also don't know like a ton about David as a character yet, [laughs] so…

R: …Yeah…

N: …we don't actually know if he's coping underneath, and this is a front for Tally. Like we have no clue. We have no - we've no idea.

R: We do get…

N: …We've never seen him…

R: …a little…

N: …really handle anything he doesn't understand.

R: Yeah, we get a little bit, like once the reality of the situation - uh, actually the reality of this situation doesn't seem to ever hit him because the point where he rejects - kind of - kind of rejects Tally and actually like kind of says no to being traumatized in a way, when he put - finally pushes back and says, “No, we are stopping here,” is when he finds out that she is part of the reason that his family is hurt, and that his home is gone, and it's only then that he like pushes her away and seems to actually realize…

N: …Yeah…

R: ..that it's not gonna…

N: …that it’s real…

R: …but even then…

N: …Or - or…

R: …I'm extrapolating…

N: …can I…

R: … because he gets so little directly.

N: Can I flip that wording a little bit?

R: Sure.

N: He realizes that he can't just rebuild it.

R: Mmhmm.

N: I think that's important. it's not that he thinks it's just not going to come back to him, he has spent his whole life creating things, and when they break they get recycled, and when they get used up we make another one, and when…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …something dies you redo it, you just make it yourself.

R: Yeah.

N: And I - I al - I almost feel like that's a big part of this, that this is something that he, can't not just fix, but that he can't go out and find the parts to forge out of nothing again, which is like a…

R: …Yeah…

N: …big deal with his identity because he's genuinely the only person in that whole - that we've met so far who has spent their entire life with that skill and suddenly he's up against something that that skill means nothing for. I think that's a big deal. [laughs]

R: I also think that kind of how we really get to see how much he's in denial is when, um - so thus far we've talked mostly about losing his home in like a more physical sense, but he also then when he's like, “Okay everything's gonna be fine if I can rescue my parents. Everything's gonna be fine if I can rescue my parents. It'll be fixed, it'll be better, it'll be great or at least better,” and then his mom says like, “We've gotta go, we can't help your dad, we have to go,” and he's like, “Well if they just turned him pretty, can't you fix it?” 

(7:32)

R: And she's like, “We can't, we have to go. We can't help your dad,” and he just - he asks her like again. I think it's when he asked her like the third time she's like, “Your dad's dead. We have to go. We cannot help him. He is dead,” and she didn't - you can tell how much she didn't want to tell him that…

N: …Oh yeah… 

R: …right then, while we're on the run. She just wanted to be like, “We can't rescue him. We can't help him, we have to go.”

N: Yeah.

R: And ah, just thinking about, ‘cause - ‘cause part of what we talk about is how like we're really focusing on how the author ends up handling it what the author puts the character through, and I just took the thought that like in this weird way we see what the alternate path was because David and Tally decide not to check out the morgue, which means that canonically something is arbitrary, almost as arbitrary and feeling as like flipping a coin. They didn't flip a coin they just said we're not going to go in there, but something very arbitrary like a 50/50 did - would - could they have gone into the morgue and just found his dad's body, and have that be the first thing they found rather than finding Shay, and then finding the others alive. Um, and as - in terms of like the - how - what the author decides to put the characters through, the author very clearly in the text decided not to put David through finding his dad's body.

N: Yes.

R: And usually we don't try and like extrapolate on what the author could have done instead unless we're like talking about what would have made it more or less care, that's really the one place we do it, but - but here we really have; this would have been the other path is they go to the morgue and find the body, and they didn't do that. I just - I just had that thought that I - I appreciate it but it also means that David - he doesn't get to have like the cold hard reality of like seeing a body and knowing this is done. He just has to have someone tell him, “You're not gonna get this again.”

N: I - I just had a thought…

R: …Mmhmm?

N: …that - cause this - this ability to kind of handle things and recognize the reality behind them is something that he - it matters to him, and - and it's something that he - he talks about being in Tally…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …and the first time he's really faced with something that he just has to grapple on his own, not only is she the one to tell him but he does not deal with it very well. [laughs]

R: Oh yeah, like he's so impressed that you know like, she's got scratches on her face, she's really like been through things, she's so down to earth.

N: Right, right, and then - and then as soon - as soon as she could possibly have been any kind of a - a - a stabilizing force for him, it - he just - he doesn't even know how to do that.

R: Yeah.

N: And - and now I'm not saying that he was necessarily right about Tally, but I do think it is an interesting flip that he is the one making those statements about her, because he goes, “Unlike the others,” and then the instant he would actually have to - to deal with something like that he - he can't.

R: Because whether or not it's true about her, it is clearly and canonically…

N: …It’s clearly not true…

R: …Well it’s…

N: …not true about him…

R: …truly canonically something he values…

N: …Oh absolutely… 

R: …that then turns out not to be true about him.

N: Right. [laughs] It - I just - it's an interesting thing that I wasn't thinking about until you said that just now, but it…

R: …Mmhmm…

N: …it's an interesting uh, again, like an author choice on a reversal there where, you know, he - he's not valuing it because he has it, he's valuing it because - well maybe not because he doesn't, but it - he definitely does not have that thing.

R: Maybe he aspires to it and thinks that he has it because he's been in the smoke his whole life, and then discovers that…

N: [laughs]

R: …even in the smoke he had an ease that he didn't know he had.

N: Yeah.

R: He lost some naivete, um, and did you have anything else? Because I'm ready for the next one.

N: Ah, most of my thoughts are on [sighs] topic three, but…

R: …Yeah, but…

N: …I'm good with this one.

R: Two is before three so…

N: …Yep…

R: ...going there.

R: Moving on to Tally and self-esteem. Uh, so, a thing that this society does intentionally as part of their uh, thing that is a major spoiler in the book's plan, like, yeah brain - I guess, yeah brain - brainwashing as a form of societal control to have as few people as possible worried about all the decisions that a very small group of people are making. They - be - because they have this thing where everyone's going to get this operation at 16 and they need everyone to want this operation desperately, so they don't really leave room for anyone to like how they are, and it's hard to know to what degree um, like [sighs], kids call each other names and give each other weird nicknames.

N: They - they did talk - Shay and Tally did - did talk about…

R: …It’s hard to know how much this is started by…

N: …Oh…

R: …adults…

N: …oh no we…

R: …At some point in time….

N: …we get - we get more on that.

R: Oh okay.

N: Shay and Tally have a conversation about how they are reprimanded because people are not allowed to use their real names with each other, if they don't call each other by mean nicknames.

R:Oh I…

N: …They actually had that conversation about how like they were free to do this with each other but only when the adults weren't around, and no one else could know.

R: I forgot about that.

N: It feels very, very, very…

R: …I forgot about that.

N: Yeah, I - I - I think it's fully, fully deliberate and top down.

R: Yeah, so, huh. I didn't remember that bit but it - it is - it is totally fitting with the rest of the book for the adults to make the kids not call themselves their given names.

N: You know what - I just thought that's interesting about that? They do have given names.

R: Yes.

N: Like they don't start out with like your fake child name that'll get replaced when you become Pretty, like they - they could have gone that route. Other books have gone that route. Certain societies don't go exactly that route but it have a similar kind of like, choose your name when you become an adult thing.

R: No that - they have one. They…

N: …They don’t…

R: …they have a name…

N: …they have a real name that they're not allowed to use because they have to be mean to each other.

R: Like they get…

N: …Like that's super deliberate.

R: They get to use their name when they're a littlie…

N: [laughs]

R: …is what it sounds like. Uh, now I really want to find where in the book it said that, the thing you were talking about.

N: I don't…

R: …was it…

N: …I..

R: … in front…

N: …I remember…

R: …of them…

N: …I read this book on my phone. I don't want to try - um, no. They were talking to each other. This is before Shay left. If I had read this in a physical book I could flip to it. I read this with a - a digital version. Um, it's - it's when they are - they're hanging out and they hadn't gone hoverboarding outside the bounds of the city yet. 

R: Have they gone overboarding at all?

N: I don't remember. It was around there though because Tally was talking about how cool it felt to call Shay by her real name and how good it felt to be Tally and how she was struggling not to call Shay Skinny. Like she had to remember that she was allowed to use her actual name, like that was a thing.

R: Oh, uh. Okay, I found the passage but also - I think I found the passage.

N: It comes up more than once but there's like a specific passage…

R: …There's a specific one, “In the last week Tally had learned that Shay only used her ugly name - nickname as a put down…

N: …[to cat] Hey baby…

R: …Shay insisted they call each other by their real names most of the time which Tally had quickly gotten used to. She liked it actually. Nobody but Sol and Ellie, her parents, and a few stuck-up teachers had ever called her Tally before.” So there it…

N: …Yeah…

R: …doesn't have that…

N: …Stuck up teachers, the teachers are also calling them by their mean nicknames. This is a…

R: …Oh…

N: …systematic thing.

R: Oh, I didn't pick up on that. I had been thinking of it as teachers call them by the real names, the kids call each other by their nickname, but…

N: Nope.

R: Oh.

N: Certain specific stuck-up teachers [laughs].

R: Oh, okay. Alright, well yeah thanks for…

N: …Mean nicknames are systemic. [laughs]

R: Yeah, so anyway, at whatever point that was introduced it has a strong uh, inertia in the society with these kids. So I don't - I didn't get anything explicit enough to “You're forbidden” but there's - I want to talk about now about some of the other things around that, that definitely encourage the kids to do that, because if - if - if the adults had said, “You're not allowed to call each other real names,” they'd be rebelling all the time by calling each other their real names, so I don't…

N: …Right, that's not what they - they - I don't think they - I don't think they straight out said you're not supposed to do this, I think they just, very subtly reinforced the negativity…

R: …Sure…

N: …in a lot…

R: …especially by having the…

N: …ways…

R: …teachers __ …

N: …There's a lot of ways to - right, right, right, right, ‘cause then you're - then you're in on it.

(16:52)

R: Yeah, and so the - the thing that we're talking about with the nicknames, it's not like how I - how you know, Nicole goes by Niki, it's not that. It's - it's all like nicknames that are…

N: …It's intentionally - it's in - they’re intentional put downs…

R: …Yeah they…

N: …and - and…

R: …they call out…

N: …and they…

R: …a feature that the person doesn't like or is the most away from the average. Like um, Tally - Tally is…

N: …You know…

R: …Tally’s is…

N: …you might…

R: …a squint…

N: …you might…

R: …Yeah?

N: Can I pause at a theory?

R: Sure.

N: I don't think it's a feature that the kids start out not liking. I think it is the obvious feature that the adults know is going to get changed by the surgery.

R: Oh that's - well, I was gonna say that's part of why I corrected my phrasing to furthest from the average.

N: Yeah, I think it's an intentional thing to - I think - I think it's an - I - this is part of why I think it's an intentional adult thing.

R: Mmhmm.

N: I think it's the adults intentionally setting the kids up to hate that thing about themselves.

R: And definitely because we only meet Tally like a couple of weeks - a couple of months before when her surgery is supposed to happen, we don't get how far back in time she first got this nickname, just, any of that, but we just know that like everybody has this nickname. Which, yes, you're right, that points to something that's super systemic and must have some origin. We just - we don't have enough info to speculate on whether they called her squint because she squinted a lot, or whether they called her squint because she squinted once and then…

N: …I…

R: …she…

N: …I think it's just because her eyes, as she puts it, aren't big enough.

R: Oh that's it. I [soghs]

N: Yeah, she doesn't even wear glasses.

R: Oh my goodness.

N: She talks about how her eyes are too close together.

R: And that's [sighs] and then like…

N: …That’s it. That's the full…

R: …And…

N: …that's it, that's all of it…

R: …and Peris’s was nose because his nose was just like a little bit bigger, and then Shay's is …

N: …Yeah…

R: …skinny because she doesn't eat enough, and…

N: …it's not even because she doesn't eat enough, it's ‘cause she's slender as a build.

R: Oh!

N: She - she doesn't like - we get comparisons to her with comparing to the - the models in magazines…

R: …Right.

N: Shay is not underweight. She's just small.

R: Yeah, oh you're right.

N: Tally thinks she won't eat enough because she thinks that it's a deformity, but it's not.

R: Right.

N: She thinks that it's a problem but it's not.

R: Ah, dang it. I had fallen into the trap of thinking of…

N: [laughs]

R: …of Tally the narrator in this book is the best Tally and…

N: …Nope.

R: Oh my goodness. Um, you're right this is - this is not the smartest Tally because, as you said, she is 16. Also for perspective when I last read these books I was younger than Tally, so I like…

N: …Oh no…

R: …so my perspective like age-wise was like, she was older and hypothetically more mature…

N: …[laughs] Hypothetically wiser [laughs]...

R: …hypothetically wiser and so, now I am…

N: [laughs]

R: …much older than 16 [laughs] and I haven't read these books in the middle. I read them in middle school and then now.  Like a bunch in middle school, but middle school and then now. So, yeah, last time I was younger than her. I wasn't thinking of her as immature and not actually understanding things, but you're right.

N: You thought she was an impartial narrative.

R: I did.

N: She is fully - fully apart - a piece of her society.

R: Yup. [sighs] Dang it. Ah, it's such good writing though because you're right, that's - that's completely there in the text.

N: Oh yeah.

R: Yeah.

N: But also Tally is unaware of it being in the text.

R: Right, Tally doesn't know. Tal - [sighs] damn it, sorry.

N: [laughs]

R: Book one Tally - you're gonna have to pull that out. Book one Tally is unreliable.

N: I'm gonna put that in bloopers.

R: [laughs] Book one Tally is unreliable, that is really frustrating. Okay, this is reshaping how I'm thinking of these books.

N: [laughs]

R: I really like them a lot. Okay. So, things that I want to get to because we've - we've talked about a lot of really good things…

N: …Oh my god…

R: …with this topic but we've missed half the notes that I had. We've missed almost all the notes.

N: [laughs] We're like almost out of time too.

R: Yeah, um, so, a couple of important things that I wanted to say with this and self-esteem in these books. What - what this society does, this is all stuff we have from book one which is what we're talking about, with this one they take the gawkiest phase possible which is being a teenager and then pretend that without the society's surgery that you'll never ever look better than this, and if any of you are listening and you are a teenager and you don't like how you look, you're - you're going to look better.

N: It - I - I - okay.

R: Being a teenager is super awkward, you're going…

N: I - i don't even want to say better.

R: You're going…

N: …You probably - you look fine right now…

R: …That’s true…

N: …and you're gonna look different as an adult.

R: Okay, that's true. Yeah, you - you look fine now. You're going to look - you're…

N: …You’re going to look more the way you - you feel like you should look because your body's not done growing yet…

R: …Yeah…

N: …and just give it time to get there.

R: Yeah, your proportions are gonna get to a place that's better for whatever your body is and that's gonna be fine. 

(21:55)

R: So, the society takes the point where you're in the most transition and not - physically your bones aren't where they're headed towards yet, and just all this stuff, and they pretend that without this surgery that it's never going to - that you're never going to look mature without it. But what they actually end up doing is making it so you could only look mature by getting more surgery, because they've stopped them maturing naturally physically to some degree.

N: Also they have decided that maturity looks a very uniform way.

R: Right.

N: They've also altered the concept of maturity.

R: Yes. Yeah they've definitely done that, and then they also have software that you play with that encourages thinking that anything that gives your face character and individuality is actually bad and the sign of childhood diseases and stress, and…

N: …It’s - it's super bad.

R: Yeah, and the books - so, the society is right in a limited way to, yes, humans prefer symmetrical faces up to a point. Uncanny valley is totally a thing. Uh.

N: [laughs]

R: Right - they're right that when your face is naturally symmetrical that is an indication that it's less likely that you had a childhood illness and you're more likely to be considered to be pretty, which were - is not an objective standard of beauty at all, but it - that is in general…

N: …And…

R: …a…

N: …and it's a definition that varies from society to society.

R: Oh absolutely, but it - it - it is…

N: …Yeah…

R: …in general likely to be true that a face that is more symmetrical probably is going to be considered to be prettier. But, where the society in this book goes wrong or is intentionally misleading is that they have extrapolated the idea that symmetry is beautiful and a sign of health, and have made everyone symmetrical artificially so that they can tell them that being symmetrically beautiful is necessary to health, but they could have given them the anti-disease booster stuff without making them pretty - without doing the rest of the surgery. They could have given like the replacement teeth or whatever they do, without the rest of the surgery. Like…

N:  …Yeah there's some - there's some odd structural things that - like aren't necessary but also, yeah okay sure. Like things like replacing all of your natural teeth with artificial teeth that will never wear, don't need to be brushed, always for function perfectly, will never fall out, will never get infected with another - like if I could have that today right now, I would do it in a heartbeat. My teeth are awful. And it's not awful because I don't like how they look, they're objectively bad. They're objectively not good strong healthy teeth, but like that doesn't mean that I'm ugly. It's not - it's not - and it's not a thing that I - I look at and go, “Oh, I don't like myself because,” that doesn't happen, and it's - and it's - it's - but that's what they've - they've done here, is they've said, “Well, if you don't have perfect teeth, and if you don't have a symmetrical face, and if you don't have eyes that open exactly this way, and if you don't have the right tilt on your eyes; you're nothing,” and they tell these kids that they're nothing if they don't get this surgery. And then they try and say that genetics and health is the reason why you're nothing and you should feel bad, which is - is just a whole extra level of awful.

R: Yeah, like they really have a complete system here of they’re awful It's a very solid…

N: …Yeah…

R: …uh effort in world building. It just…

N: …[laughs] It's really good world building.

R: It's a very well-built world with a very terrible society. I - I really love this series. I am ready to move on to our next topic are you?

N: Alright, onto my favorite topic [laughs]. Uh.

R: Yep.

N: [sighs] Okay, can I just jump in with this one, is that okay?

R: Absolutely. Yep.

N: Alright, so this - I - I'm gon - I'm about to get very, very meta on anybody who is listening to this episode and this is not your first episode of our podcast. Our - our third topic is related to uh, Tally and the - the ability or lack of ability to consent to trauma and danger. Tally goes through a - a bunch of things where she has the choice to either jump in and consent, or she's being forced in with no ability to consent. Forced consent is not consent and there are multiple points in this story where she is manipulated in a way, either with uh - either with straight up threats or just lack of information, or, lack of information in the big reveal later that it was their plan all along and she has no choice. Uh, but she was - she - there's several points here where she - either she thinks she has consent, or the ability to consent to something and as soon as she says yes, it's revealed that actually she doesn't have control over it, and that is a - that is, a thing that we - Robin says, I have not read books two three or four um yet, Robin says that - that is a thing that will continue to be something.

R: Yeah.

N: I have some pretty strong thoughts on some very meta text [laughs] in this book. This is a…

R: …Before you get into your meta, I just had one thought that I wanted to say explicitly, because…

N: …Yes…

R: …the way you described this topic made me think of another example that I had not already thought of.

N: Oh, okay go for it.

R: So, the pendant, because…

N: …Yeah…

R: …what the pendant…

N: …Right?

R: …did is, she thought she had the ability to consent. She thought she was in complete control. She thought she was saying, “Okay, I am now ready to betray everyone who just took me in,” and instead what happened is she decided, “No, I am not willing to consent to being part of betrayal,” and because she damaged the pendant by trying to destroy it and triumphantly not help betray everyone, that she destroyed it activated an automatic thing and made her be responsible for betraying everyone, as she thought she had the ability consent and then didn't consent, and it happened anyway.

N: No joke…

R: …Yeah…

N: …leading up to that moment, pretty much ever since she had the realization that the pendant was impervious to water damage, all the way up until the moment she chucks it in the fire, I was kind of mentally yelling at her, “Hey, you're near an ocean. Just drop it in and walk away.” [laughs] Like it - even if it does go off, chances are it'll be miles away.

R: Yeah.

N: And she doesn't do it. But, okay, so - let's - we're gonna - so I'm gonna break down some - wait are you ready now?

R: Yeah, I'm ready. I just - that was a very specific interesting…

N: …No that makes sense…

R: …one.

N: [laughs]

R: Yeah.

N: So, part of the thing that lets Tally either consent or not consent, is the ability to understand things that are a danger to her, which means that she - she just recognizes threats essentially, and she has the ability to work out the implications of those threats, and respond, and learn about them, and grow, and - and the - so here's - here's where it gets kind of meta. [laughs] There is a narrative that is very, very subtly introduced in this book and then at one point in this book explicitly broken down under the guise of scientific terminology. Um, not - not science as in like dense or difficult to read but is in a scientific explanation for - for a mechanic in the book but it - it breaks down this concept pretty well. there's a narrative in this book; human beings in order to grow and learn as individuals, require the ability to recognize and codify danger and anticipate possible trauma. They - that is a thing. That is something that we inherently need the ability to be able to do. Now, does that mean that we have to undergo trauma personally and experience pain, and like does that mean we have to - we can't understand or codify or grow as people, we have to go through trauma, like, no.

R: No.

N: No.

R: You…

N: …Absolutely not, but it is a very real thing that people who do not get any - any exposure to, or have very limited exposure to trauma as a concept and the implications of trauma, whether it's happening to them or whether they just learn about it happening to other people, people that lack that learning experience are fundamentally much less able to handle things that happen, and they're much less empathetic, and they're much less able to - to figure out things, and they're much less - they care - they - they have a harder time connecting to people, and they have less understanding of their own emotions, and there's a whole - there's a whole thing with that that plays out in our world, uh, in - in very, very real ways. 

(31:50)

N: People that are very cut off from other people and don't get the a - the ability to learn about those things then how they affect other people, they - they struggle a lot. And - and honestly there's - this is not a science podcast, this is not a psychological podcast. There's a - there's a whole wealth of information about how - how doing that kind of thing can - can hurt - hurts you, or not being able to do it actually injures you and then - that those people turn around and sometimes are the people injuring other people. There's a whole thing with that. But what this book talks about is that, specifically in this book the surge - the op - the surgery that they - they undergo when they're 16 part of it is the - they - it opens up like these lesions in their brain, and there is a - there's a significant processing ability difference between people who have these lesions and people who don't have them. And we also have reasons in the book to know that these lesions are artificial and they are in a - a designed part of the process. The people who came up with the surgery want the Pretties to be unable to recognize and do any kind of threat assessment. They want them just going through life, seeing everything at surface value and never scratching below the surface because they don't understand that there's something to scratch at.

R: Right.

N: And it's very, very interesting, and it was very, very funny to me because as I was kind of reading this book and thinking about it, all I could think was, “Hey, this is what our podcast is about.” [laughs]

R: Yep. 

N: So it was very, very interesting because it's a book about how trauma is, and - and not - again, not undergoing it yourself, but reading about it, and understanding, it and analyzing it, and - and looking at implications and connecting the dots on things, is inherent to human growth and development. And here we have a book about how it's inherent to human growth and development, as we're talking about how it's inherent to character development. We have had…

R: …And…

N: …discussions in past episodes, some of which have been released in this moment and some probably that have not statistically speaking, where we talk about how characters, when an author puts them through something, they either understand it analyze it and grow, or they don't, and nothing…

R: …Yeah…

N: …happens to them and they don't understand, and they fall into the same problems, and they don't recognize that thing that happened to someone else and so they do it too, or they do recognize it and they do something different and it's a huge learning moment and, that's everything we talk about.

R: Oh yeah, and I have a - a couple of thoughts I want to say here, uh if a…

N: …It's just surreal. It was surreal to me kind of reading this literally going, “This is an analysis that we're about to do an analysis on the book's analysis of this analysis,” [laughs]. It was just…

R: [laughs]

N: …it was…

R: …Yeah…

N: …really, really, really cool to read especially because I - I was somebody who absolutely did not read these in middle school and I - I do - I almost - I deliberately did not read them. Robin did tell me about them and I thought they did not sound fun.

R: I described them very poorly. I described - with the book - I described the way that just - the society like the bad things that it said about things without communicating that this was a dystopian novel, and so Nicole was like “I already know this, cool.”

N: Ro - Robin basically tried to sell me on it as being something that will teach you that your looks are not inherent to your self-worth, and I just looked at them and was like, “Yeah.” Anyways, like I did not understand - I did not understand this book.

R: Yeah. Um, so, I have a couple things that I want to say with this - and - um, so, in terms of like, this is why we make this podcast…

N: [laughs]

R: …is because we - one of the things - one of our - our guiding like theses with what - the books we pick, and what we talk about is that being exposed to uh - a dangerous situation through fiction can be a way of processing emotionally parallel or similar things in your own life, or just mentally being able to prepare for something happening, or processing and having a better understanding of something that has already happened when you see some - see a fictional character go through something that parallels your experience, and then the fictional character works through it and gets better, and you say, “Oh, I can do that. That can be - that can be okay for me. 

(36:33)

R: That can be good. I can not - I can get help instead of just having that ideation,” like whatever it is. Like…

N: …Yeah…

R: …and so…

N: …It - it's part of why we pick - it's part of why we - we look at the books and we look at - and it's partly why people identify with - with books, because they look at a character going through something that they've gone through, and then they can kind of almost vicariously work through how it felt…

R: …And you need some…

N: …Or - or - but - or…

R: …sympathy and empathy…

N: …see a character doing

R: …to do that…

N: …the thing they want - yeah. They - you need it already, and it also helps develop it.

R: Yeah. It can build…

N: …It’s this whole…

R: …sympathy…

N: …thing…

R: …and empathy with like fictional characters and - and like, with going back into the book specifically, part of what this operation does is it makes everyone act the same without having sympathy or empathy really for each other…

N: …Or even for themselves.

R: Or - yeah, not - yeah. 

N: Yeah [laughs]

R: Not being - not being, uh, gentle to themselves. It's just, “Oh, I'm not ugly anymore,” without recognizing that they weren't ugly in the first place.

N: Even more than that - even more than that we get a couple moments with um, oh what's his name.

R: Shay?

N: No.

R: David, Croy?

N: No, uh the guy…

R: …Oh, Peris.

N: Yes, we get a couple moments with Peris where he very - he in - in Tally's words, he exemplifies all the things that the two of them used to make fun of the Pretties for, specifically doing things and - that just felt good at the time with no consequences ever, because everything was safe and they can do anything they want, and…

R: …Yep…

N: ….the government will keep them healthy and safe and alive, and they don't even have - they had - they have literally no consequences and no real understanding or connection to consequences. 

R: Like this is a world where if they have a bungee jacket they can jump off of a 10-story building…

N: …And just…

R: …and it'll just take a while to fall to the ground but they'll be fine.

N: Yeah, and - and even if they forget the jacket, there's other measures in place. You have to be identified, I think. Like - there's like - I don't remember what the jewelry for the Pretties is but there's…

R: …The belly sensor, or…

N: …Uh, it might be the belly sensor, but there's - there's specific - there's specific like tracker devices that they're fitted with, and they're - and - and Tally kind of talks about the - the whole thing of you know…

R: …inner sheets…

N: …and she’s…

R: …that's what it is.

N: Yeah, that one. Uh, she kind of talks about the fact that like she took off her tracker ring so she'll die, but even if the Pretties forget their jacket, they'll be fine. They're in the system, and…

R: …Yeah…

N: …there's - there's a - a very deliberate - there's a - there's a whole like culture among “new Pretties” where all they do is things that feel good with no consequence, no connection, no cares in the world, and no attachment to them, because they've lost this ability to - to have anything nuanced, ever. And, they don't…

R: …Yeah…

N: …they don't use those words in the book precisely, but they describe it over and over very, very well and it's - it's just real - it was really - it was just surreal for me to - to read this book and - and look at it and kind of go, “Huh, they're saying what we talk about,” [laughs]. 

R: So…

N: …It was really fun…

R: …we had said that the topic for this was consent, and…

N: …Yes…

R: …specifically I want to make sure that we touch on the reason that we called this topic consent.

N: Oh yeah, go for it.

R: So being able to recognize and codify danger in these books is something that you can only do if you don't have the lesions, and at the very end of the book Tally can sense, finally actually, um, not coerced, consents to - to having the operation be - that may take away her ability to genuinely have further consent, because they need a willing test subject to find out if the um, pills that can take away the lesion will - will work on…

N: …Yeah…

R: …anyone and help anyone, and so she basically agrees to be a test subject. She volunteers to be a test subject. They weren't trying to get it to be her. She volunteers to be this test subject for this just untreated, untested thing, and because once she is a Pretty if she has the legions, she won't want to - she won't see there being any purpose in - in having these pills. She won't be trying to be different, because of that she has to consent beforehand in writing, and they do - there's some really, really good discussion and examples of consent and how important it is in this really cool world specific way, in the last couple of chapters, and I just remembered a whole bunch of things that happen in book two. I'm fine, I just remembered a bunch of really bad things that happened in book two.

N: [laughs]

R: Ha.

N: Hold on until we record again.

R: I know, I know. Uh, it's - I haven't read - read these books in more than 10 years and I just remembered a thing. 

N: [laughs]

R: Okay, alright, I'm fine now. It's just - anyway. So that - that's it, that - that part of after this whole book where she keeps having where it looks like it's consent and it's not really, or she'll agree to stuff, even in the smoke like she'll agree to all these things, but she got coerced into being in the smoke anyway and it just like mucks up her feelings and reactions and, I - I really like how it talks about how can conflicted she feels in a really specific way so it's not like, oh she just feels bad. Like it - they talk about the ways and different things. She finally at the end of the book takes some control even though it might mean that she never - that this version of her never can consent anything again, even though the next version of her may consider themselves to perfectly well be able to consent to everything they can. And, also with consent, they don't make Shay be the - test subject because…

N: …Right…

R: …Shay doesn't want it, and doesn't think there's anything that needs to be fixed. 

N: Yeah.

R: I - I'm really, really appreciating how good these books are around the topic of consent, as a thing in like a non-sexual context. Because it usually gets talked about just there but it's - it's across all these things and, ah these books are so good. I'm ready for the wrap up