N: Hi, I’m Nicole.

R: And I’m Robin and this fortnight we are discussing “Long Way Down” by Jason Reynolds. Let’s get into our factions. We have Will, Buck, Dani, Uncle Mark, Pop, um, who is also Mikey Holloman, Frick, Shawn, Riggs, and Will’s mom.

R: For our first topic, we have Will’s mom, with the topic being the death of family members. So, this - this entire book is about a very particular set of traumas and so the spoilers start immediately. Um, the mom’s husband, older son, and brother-in-law, were all killed. Um, I believe they were all killed by...

N: ...Yeah, all killed...

R: ...guns...

N: ...by gunshot...

R: ...by gunshot.

N: Most…

R: ...Yep…

N: ...killed in, like revenge-style killing.

R: Yeah, and yeah, she’s got - we - we mo - we get Will’s perspective on his mom, and there’s just like a lot of little things, like how she didn’t go through her son’s possessions after [he] died. To be clear, this is not very long after he died...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...so, in the story it’s possible she just didn’t have time yet.

N: Yeah.

R: Um.

N: Uh, yeah.

R: We don’t - we don't’ have a - I think it’s a very short time frame. We either didn’t have a sense of it, or it was explicitly a short timeframe, I’m not totally sure...

N: ...I think it...

R: ...uh...

N: ...Yeah, I don’t know that we ever got like a - a hard and fast - but - but there’s definitely the implication of like, this being a super recent emotional thing, which...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a super recent time thing, uh.

R: Right.

N: But.

R: Yeah, so she - yeah, just the husband, older son, and brother-in-law, all gone. Um, her husband died when one son was seven or eight, and the other was, I think a bab[y]. Like the implication was that Will was too young to even remember his dad at all.

N: Yeah, like he - his memories of a - of a father figure are his older brother taking care of him, yeah.

R: Yeah, and his brother is a maximum of eight years older than him, because that’s how old the brother was...

N: ....Yeah...

R: ...when the father died. Um, so in terms of the trauma, as it relates to the mom, and right now and not as a...

N: … Are you...

R: ...weight towards Will, do you - we got two parts...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...of this. Did you...

N: ...Um...

R: ...have any particular thoughts on the dad?

N: So, I [sighs] I mean we’ve kind of already walked a little bit through our - our first part. Like all - all of her rela - all of these people that are super important to her, uh, are just part of this like, and we’ll talk about this as our third topic specifically, but they’re part of this almost chain of - of murders. Um, and - and it’s just - it’s like - it - it’s kinda one of those things where we don’t - we don’t get anything from her perspective, because the entire book is - is Will and since it’s poetry, we don’t even get really like, third person memories, or whatever, like we don’t get any of that, uh, that other books sometimes have. But, we do kind of - you kind of get this feeling of like, that anticipation in the way the book is - is written of, “Well, when somebody dies, you know that somebody else is going after their killer, and so if your family member is the one who went after somebody else’s killer, well they’re next. They’re next,” like that's just kind of how it works in this - in this set up for this - for this book, and...

R: ...And this is definitely speculation on our part, but it’s - it’s completely reasonable to think that she would have a - it's reasonable to think that she would have an expectation that they’re going to die next.

(5:52)

R: We don’t have her thoughts on it, and...

N: ...Yeah. We - it’s not like this is necessarily...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...like that cut and dried. It’s not like - it’s not like you were - avenge someone and so now you have like a literal target on your forehead, but if somebody thinks, and we do...

R: ...Mmmhmm...

N: ...actually know this explicitly, this is not speculation. If somebody else thinks that you did it, it’s now the rule in the neighborhood, like literally like there is a mantra that our main character has that is a set of rules, and one of those rules is that you do get revenge...

R: ...Mmmhmm...

N: ...always, everytime, and so, it’s not - it’s not something that I’m - I’m even speculating, like the book explicitly sets up, at least from - from the perspective of this child, to be fair, but the book explicitly sets up, that know, if you avenge someone else, well now their avenger is coming after you, and hey, maybe they get the wrong target and you live, but if you’re the wife or the - or the - the - the - the daughter or the sister, or the mother of - ‘cause we’re explicitly talking about his mom, that’s why I’m...

R: ...Mmmhmm...

N: ...specifying that gender, if you are this person to those people, and you know that this person who’s important to you has - has avenged someone else, well, you can kind of - you kind of can assume that they’re next. Unless you get really lucky, and the person coming after them gets the wrong target, and so...

R: ...And...

N: ...she's just living this...

R: ...to be clear what I - to be clear what I meant, what I said was speculation on our part, I meant just it is speculation that we can be pretty sure for - that she would be anticipating this because ...

N: ...Oh if she knows the rules, she’s absolutely anticipating it.

R: Right, just to the degree that we don’t get her voice on it, that is the limit of - that's the degree to which it’s speculation.

N: It is speculation ‘cause we never hear from her directly, but like it - it is...

R: ...Right...

N: ...actually stated in the text. It’s not book speculation, it’s character speculation. Yeah.

R: Right, we don’t know that she would have this in her head, but other people in the book definitely would, and it is completely reasonable to think that she would as well.

N: Well, I would argue that we do have pretty clear indication that she would have this in her head, because her older son...

R: ...Well...

N: ...and her younger son know the...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...rules...

R: ...right...

N: ...and their father was dead like you said, like super early for both of them and - and possibly - maybe, we don’t even know if - if it was after the younger one was even born.

(8:30)

N: So...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...the father at - even if he taught his older son the rules at eight, somebody had to...

R: ...I...

N: ...reinforce that , and somebody else had to teach the younger son...

R: ...Uh...

N: ...like, it is - it is - it is un - it is unreasonable to me to think that the mom would not have the same outlook here, because her youngest child does.

R: Right, uh, Buck taught Shawn the rules. That’s - that’s in the text. Yeah, yeah.

N: Buck taught Shawn the rules, but like the idea that the mother would not be thinking along these lines, like that - that does not seem like speculation to me. That seems like - that like - that doesn’t seem internally consistent with the story, but I - I understand why you - why you’re saying like, we just don’t get her - yeah. Technically she doesn’t come over and say, “By the way I also agree.” [laughs] Uh, but yeah.

R: Uh, all I was trying to say was - yeah technically we don’t have her perspective, yes. Yeah. And there’s also a lot of um, like, patriarchal stuff in the way the rules are passed down, and she probably knows them, but they’re passed down to the men and the boys. I do not want to miss the second part of our topic, which is the effect that we explicitly know that all of this, to whatever degree that she is aware of it - she has eczema and uh, she scratches herself bloody, um. One of the quotes from, uh, after her son dies, is, “She’d been scratching all night, maybe trying to scratch away,” um, the guilt that her son died because he - he died while he was going to the store for lotion for her eczema...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and it doesn't make it her fault. It, it abs[olutely] - it does not make it her fault, but Will is interpreting it as his mom feeling guilty because her - her son, Shawn, was at that place at the time to get something...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...for her...

N: ...Alright, let’s go on...

R: ...And...

N: ...to topic two.

R: Yeah, I - it’s the - the thing is that it’s both - it’s - it’s both literally something that she’s doing and it’s also very emblematic of the situation where it is physically... she is tearing herself up from the stress of all of this, and I don't know, it - it implies a sense of helplessness like she can’t do anything about this, and stress is making it worse, and f - scratching is making it worse, and just everything is making this worse, and she can’t do anything about the actual problem.

[Musical Interlude]

N: Ok, so our next topic is, what did we label this one? Oh, premeditation.

R: Premeditation of murder.

N: Of murder, yeah. This is specifically the premeditiation part, uh, which is a little bit different of a take.

R: Yeah, it’s a little bit sideways to call the premeditation a trauma, but...

N: ...But it is.

R: It is, but at the very least it is the expression of a lifetime of related trauma, honing into this very particular ideation and set of thoughts, um.

N: Mmmhmm, yeah, yeah.

R: You could call it something else. We called it this.

N: We - honestly we, behind the scenes, peek behind the curtain for you all, we debated about the topic of this section for like, ten minutes. We - we took...

R: ...Yeah, we debated whether to talk about this for longer than we will spend talking about it.

N: We also - yeah, and longer than it took us to write the notes. Like, we were like, “What do we call this?” forever.

R: Now...

N: ...and - and this is - this is the closest we came up with...

R: ...for the actual topic. Uh, it is - he spends the entire book, he being Will, spends the entire book planning and contemplating killing Riggs. Riggs is the person who Will believes killed his brother Shawn at the start of the book.

N: So it’s wild that - we try very hard in our podcast to not just, summarize and just list a bunch of stuff about the book every time, but with this particular book it’s really, really hard not to, because that’s really the whole book. The whole book are - is the connections, and his intent to kill this person and it’s actually kind of a big deal that he only thinks this is the killer. Like he actually...

R: ...Right...

N: ...like he has this...

R: ...He...

N: ...internal monologue about...

R: ...pretty sure...

N: ...how - he’s pretty sure but what if he’s wrong. And...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...he keeps...

R: ...And the book...

N: ...cycling...

R: ...leaves space for him to be.

N: Oh yeah.

R: And we’ll get to...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...that more in our next topic...

N: ...Yes...

R: ...but for now, it matters that - like the whole structure of this book is that he - his brother has died and now he went upstairs to get a gun at some indeterminate amount of time after his brother died, he went upstairs...

N: ...His brother’s gun I believe.

R: Yes, his brother’s gun. He went upstairs to get his brother’s gun and in the one minute ride down the elevator he is being visited by the ghosts of people who have died. We’ll talk about them...

N: [laughs]

R: ...a little bit more in the next section.

N: I love this mechanic...

R: ...But...

N: ...can I just say.

R: It’s really, really cool, and cool in like a, uh, ways-to-do-a-book sense.

N: It - it’s cool in like a story telling sense. Yeah,

R: Yeah, I realized cool isn’t a great way...

N: [laughs]

R: ...to describe this. Um.

N: It's interesting.

R: This is not - it is - it is very well done. It’s like - it’s weirdly meditative, and - but also kind - also very like keyed up and anxious at the same time.

(14:38)

R: It encourages you to think a lot, but you’re thinking a lot about a very stressful thing. And Will is thinking a lot about a very stressful thing. He’s having constant thoughts about - or repeated thoughts, about the gun and how many bullets he has, and it is a gun that can hold, uh, sixteen bullets between the chamber and the... all the gun things.

N: [laughs] Robin’s not...

R: ...It’s got fifteen...

N: ...a gun person...

R: ...bullets...

N: ...spoiler alert.

R: I am not. Uh, nope. Uh, it has fifteen bullets in it because one round has already been fired. Fifteen bullets and Will is fifteen years old, and those two things…

N: ...Oh, I thought it was fourteen...

R: ...are mentioned separately. Oh, is it fourteen bullets?

N: I thought it was fourteen, one for every year of his life. I might be wrong.

R: It’s one for every year of his life because - and I’m pretty sure it’s fifteen. The notes have it as fifteen.

N: I don’t remember, at...

R: ...Um...

N: ...this point.

R: Uh, let me check. Fifteen bullets. I consulted the internet.

N: Ok cool.

R: Google says it’s fifteen, yeah, just double checking. Yeah, so, fifteen bullets because one had already been fired, and only one. And, with this he - he’s thinking about how he - he thinks he needs to do this thing, but he’s also scared, and he’s both emotionally very convinced that this is the person who did it and that he - and even more so that he needs to kill the person who killed his brother, but also intellectually he’s having room to have doubt...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...about whether or not Riggs actually did it, and that’s a lot of cognitive dissonance, and he’s - this entire book is him trying to figure out this tension, during this elevator ride. Like it - it takes the one minute thing very seriously. Not in terms of - like as you’re actually flipping through the pages, most don’t have a lot of individual text, but if you look at the time stamps along the top of the page, um, a lot of action happens in each very small stretch of time, and so it makes it feel very fast and also very like, languid. It make - it conveys through text the feeling of - of slow motion.

N: Like - it’s like - it’s like every second takes ten years, but things never stop happening in those ten years.

R: Yeah, so we’re gonna have - we’re gonna touch more on this, when we go to our next topic, like elements of this premeditation, but wanted to...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...highlight it here, because that he has all of this angst and anguish and thought and emotional energy going into, “I - I need to do this, I’m supposed to do this, but I don’t know if I should do this or if it will be against the right person if I do,” that is the premeditation. Any concluding thoughts for this?

N: I mean, really like, those are kinda the highlights, and like, I will say this, like I - I really like, and I’m saying this now because on our third topic we have so much more to cover, I really love that we as an audience don’t get a conclusion.

(18:01)

N: We don’t get to know whether or not he actually does it, and also...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...we don’t know independently of our main character, uh, we actually don’t know if Riggs did it.

R: Right.

N: There’s so much of juxtaposition in books where - in so many books where you know, the - the auth - the reader kind of relies on the author to say, “Pss, hey, here's the conclusion,” and like this book intentionally leaves this conclusion out, and it leaves you finishing this book with like this - this weird like, edge of the cliff sensation.

R: Would you call it a cliffhanger? But there’s never gonna be…

N: ...I would not...

R: ...but there’s - there’s probably not gonna be a sequel.

N: I would not call it a cliff hanger ‘cause you’re not hanging, you haven’t fallen yet. You just don’t know if you will.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Actually.

R: Ok.

N: I like your pun, but [dramatic fingersnap] no.

R: [laughs]

N: It’s - it’s not a cliffhanger. It’s - it’s just a weird like, it’s a weird lack of resolution that really, from like a reader perspective, it - it’s a really good way - like this book does a really good job in an immersive sense, of having the reader feel the feelings that this character is going through, and - and care and - and even - ‘cause this text is presented as poetry, and even the way - like visual poetry, so even like the way the words are on the page, and the way things are set up and how your eyes have to move to read it and how it’s - like just everything about it is set up for you to feel in the moments in the book, the way this character is - is feeling in the book. And, the lack of a conclusion in the ending, is such a good solid finish to that, because everything in this book is the premeditated part. There is no conclusion. There is no - I don’t know if you wanna call it satisfaction of knowing how it ends. It’s not satisfaction of whether or not he commits the - the - the murder, but just like that satisfied feeling of “Oh I know where all the pieces are.” We don’t get that.

R: No.

N: We just don’t.

R: We don’t.

N: And so, it - it’s just - it’s just a really interesting, really solid way of - of - of keeping you in that character, and understanding his headspace and leaving it as poetry and it’s - it’s just - it’s just really well done. But it is something where...

R: ….Yeah...

N: ...if - if endings that are nebulous in books bother you, this the worst. This is the worst...

R: [laughs]

N: ...example of that. Deliberately so.

R: Worst as in it will bother you the most.

N: Yeah.

R: It’s very well done.

N: Yeah, very well done, but if that kind - if you need conclusion, oh boy is this not the book for you.

R: And here we talked about it being poetry, um, I am - I’m actually married to a poet. I wanna be clear, this is not like most poetry. I would - I think of this one less as poetry and more - uh and more as a novel with all of the extraneous stuff stripped down so that all you have...

N: ...Isn’t all poetry...

R: ...is in there…

N: ….just novels with all the extraneous stuff stripped down Robin?

R: Have you read Ava’s poetry? If you had read Ava’s poetry...

N: ...I - I have read Ava’s...

R: ...you would not say that...

N: ...poetry, and...

R: [laughs]

N: ...and I - I would argue that uh - I would - I would argue that Ava’s poetry is still that, except that instead of a novel, it’s just uh, it’s art, but worse.

R: Very stripped down. Well, that is true, that is…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...all hers is. So anyway, um, it is - it is definitely - it’s definitely poetry rather than a normal novel, but if you are thinking “Oh no, they just read a book of poems.”

N: If you - if you’re a poetry elitist who wants to read a...

R: ...This is not...

N: ...poetry collection...

R: ...a poetry collection. Yeah

N: That’s not what this is. It’s poetry format.

R: Yes.

N: It’s not a singular…

R: ...And it...

N: ...poem...

R: ...serves it...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...very well.

[Musical Interlude]

R: For the cycle of violence: revenge edition, we had a list of mostly connected deaths. Dani was killed while playing on a playground, probably stray bullets from some killing that was happening, we don’t know which one. Then the rest of these are chronological. We have Uncle Mark, who was killed by someone who wanted his corner. We had his brother Mikey, who was Will’s father, who tried to kill Mark’s killer, killed the wrong guy, and then was killed by one of that person’s friends. Then some indeterminate number of deaths later, we have Buck who is killed by Frick, then we have Frick who is killed by Shawn, and then Shawn...

N: ...Oh wait...

R: ...don’t know who killed him?

N: Frick who was killed by Shawn - oh wait no that’s fine.

R: Yeah.

N: Frick who is killed by Shawn and then Shawn who is killed...

R: ...And then Shawn is killed by someone, Will thinks was his former friend Riggs. Probably...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...because he was in the same gang that Frick was trying to get into, but we don’t know that for sure.

N: Yeah.

R: The first main point we have for this is that Will’s father was murdered for killing the man who killed his brother, that brother being Will’s uncle. Will is too young to remember what happened. He has what his brother told him, which is what Buck told him and so he’s two steps removed from anyone who will tell him what happened.

N: Mmmhmm.

R: Probably the mom knows but she’s not saying if she does, and there’s this lineage of - of revenge, this cycle of violence as we were saying.

N: Mmhmm.

R: And it’s almost all male characters. The one female character Dani, who dies, she dies because of someone else’s um, violence. No one was taking revenge on her as like an eight year old on the playground, and...

N: ...There’s a severe...

R: ...the...

N: ...implication she’s just caught by a stray bullet at - for some reason.

R: Yeah, like.

N: Yeah, like...

R: ...Will didn’t...

N: ...it doesn't actually say...

R: ...know enough...

N: ...but like you get - you get that perspective of like Will being too young of a child to really know what was happening...

R: ...Mmhmmm...

N: ...like...

R: ...but then they were killed, they took revenge and then they were killed in revenge for that, and now we’re, you know, over a decade later and Will loses Shawn, who was his father figure since [Will’s father] died when he was a baby, and that brings us to the rules.

N: [laughs]

R: The rules that are driving this whole thing...

N: ...Well...

R: ...because Shawn fills...

N: … I - I wouldn’t say the rules...

R: ...the father role...

N: ...are driving it but the rules are...

R: ...the rules are the...

N: ...nicely...

R: ...structure...

N: ...code - codified...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...break down...

R: ...The...

N: ...of what is currently happening.

R: Yeah, the drive - the rules are the shape that codifies the individual impulse to - for revenge into a mandate that insures that it is a cycle of violence and not just random incidents, and these will - these rules are “crying; don’t no matter what, snitching; don’t no matter what, and revenge; do no matter what.”

N: Yeah, it’s - it’s a - a very stark representation of an eye for an eye leave, uh - leaves the whole world blind.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Except in this case it’s a life for a life, eventually everybody dies.

R: Yeah.

N: Like, that is really what is - what is happening here. And - and...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...explicitly, like that...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...is what is happening, because - because if everyone is always, like if everyone is - revenging each other then that’s it. And - and they - they kind of hint at that in the - in the text, or Will kind of hints at it as he - as he’s thinking about it.

(25:55)

R: Mmhmm.

N: But he doesn’t - he doesn’t think about it as a “Oh no this is a problem.” He thinks about it as a, “Well, I guess it’s my turn,” kind of a way. Like.

R: Right.

N: Oh well.

R: And that’s part of what lets there be the ambiguity that we discussed earlier, because we don’t know if he decides to follow the rules or not. This whole ride down the elevator, this minute, this is his - this is his time deciding whether he is going to follow the rules, just this one minute, and it will determine whether he is one more person in the cycle or not. It also, because the world is not just these people that…

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...at the very least their neighborhood, their community is more than this, even if Will decides not to follow the rules this time, it doesn't mean that there’s going to be no more violence, it just means that he decided not to continue...

N: ...This one moment...

R: ...his - this one moment...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...this one part of it...

N: ...Yeah, it’s...

R: So - so normally we talk about books from the perspective that the author inflicted trauma on the characters…

N: ...Mmmm...

R: ...and that isn’t right for this one. This is...

N: ...No...

R: ...not - we wanna be very clear about that since this is normally how we approach books. This is an author depicting in a very moving way, um, a kind of cycle that really happens, and it’s not - we do not see this one as the author inflicting this upon these characters but rather - rather putting on the page um...

N: ...I - I would actually like to go...

R: ...Yeah?

N: ...one step further.

R: Ok.

N: I don’t - and I - I’m not saying this is the only way to interpret this book.

R: Ok.

N: And I have opinions about this that we’ll get to in the wrap up, but I actually think that this is the author using the characters to inflict an understanding about this on the reader.

R: Mmhmm.

N: An emotional understanding.

R: Right.

N: Um, and it’s a very effective way, like I kinda a little bit talked about this in topic two, it’s a very effective way of - of doing that. Uh, the reader as a reader, you really like - uh the poetry format, the - the - the kind of stripped down starkness of everything that’s happening, the back and forth in Will’s mind, the flashbacks that you get of different people and the memories and the ghosts and the - everything that’s in here does a very, very, very good job of having you as a reader kind of go through the emotions as Will is going through them. Um, and I think it’s - I - I would argue that in most books that are - most books that are - are set up for you as a reader to kind of walk beside the characters and watch them have a journey, right? That’s how most books are, of all genres. Even - even a lot of horror books.

(28:59)

R: Yeah.

N: You’re supposed to sit there and watch the violence and go “Oh no!” and that’s it. This is a book that feels like the point is for you to experience it.

R: Yeah. To get an understanding in - in empathy and it’s...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...it’s walking a very fine line of saying, “I want you to understand why someone would do this...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and why they shouldn’t.

N: Yeah, it - it - it - it - it feels like a book where the point is it doesn't matter if you’re in that - that mindset and you need to understand how to get out or - or that you need out I should say, how but that you need out, or if you just don’t get it and you need to understand and empathise and be able to help somebody. That’s what this book feels like. It feels like it works both ways and that that’s intentional.

R: Yeah.

N: Um, [sighs] and it does mean that like - like Robin said, it’s not the author inflicting trauma on his characters, instead it’s the characters pouring out their story in a way that is supposed to impact the reader. This is not a book that you’re supposed to read for fun before you go to bed.

R: Hmmm.

N: This is not a book - this is not a horror book that you read for a thrill, like that’s not what this is. Um, and it’s - it’s very well done, but also for our purposes, when we’re talking about like impact on the reader and how the character - the author treats their characters, this book - spoiler alert, it’s not gonna get a “good rating” in our scales, but that’s intentional. This author very, very - eh - is not going for a story that you’re supposed to want to happen. You’re supposed to experience this and then like, understand it and get it.

R: And when we say, “Not getting a good rating on our scales,” we mean if you consider a good rating to be with care, and...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...uh, less stressful versions of this...

N: ...Well...

R: ...of...

N: ...to be fair we talked about books doing a good job if they get like...

R: ...True...

N: ...like it’s consistent with our - the way we tend...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...to view it.

R: But I would want...

N: ...Uh, but this...

R: ...to be clear...

N: ...is a ...

R: ...this is a...

N: ...wonderful book...

R: ..very good book...

N: ...this is a great book. It just - it - it is definitely a book where if somebody has trauma in any way shape or form related to gun violence, especially revenge killing gun violence, I would...

R: ...Or revenge killing...

N: ...not recommend reading this..

R: ...not done by guns.

N: Knives...

R: ...because - yeah...

N: ...strangulation...

R: Don’t really want to list more ways that that could happen, but yes. [laughs] Uh.

N: I mean I could give you some. There’s way more...

R: ...I’m saying for our...

N: ...poisoning...

R: ...listeners...

N: ...of various types...

R: ...audience.

N: A lot of times...

R: ...Yeah, so...

N: ...revenge is a poison.

R: There are many...

N: ...There’s a lot.

R: Yeah.

N: But specifically gun violence because so much of Will - Will’s thoughts are like gun focused.

R: Yep.

N: Like if you have trauma from any of those things, I am not recommending this book to you.

R: But also, if you want one of your friends to understand it...

N: ...Well, not - not to...

R: ...recommend...

N: ...understand gun violence but to...

R: ...No, no, no. Perspective on the impact.

N: Yeah.

R: Of a particular...

N: ...Yeah, yeah, yeah...

R: ...kind...

N: ...there we go...

R: ...of uh, gun violence. Yes. That is what I meant.

N: Yeah.

[Musical Interlude]

R: For the wrap up and ratings. For our first topic, death of family, what is the gratuity rating?

N: Oh lord. Um.

R: It’s technically off screen and backstory. Technically.

N: Yes?

R: I want to be very clear, dear audience, it is technically off screen and backstory, but in terms...

N: ...It’s very present off screen.

R: So the main topic was death of family. I feel like we should mention that a very closely accompanying topic for this was self-harm, and...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...the self-harm was off screen?

N: Off screen but talked about pretty explicitly?

R: And moderate. I’d say it was a mix of off screen and moderate, because we don’t actually see it, but the description of it in a couple of places is...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...pretty visceral.

N: Yeah.

R: So, your mileage may vary. It’s gonna be somewhere between moderate and severe.

N: It - it personally makes me itch.

R: Yeah.

N: Let’s put it that way.

R: Yep, so. The main topic - or the main...

N: ...So...

R: ...part for this section, death of family, um backstory and off screen with moderate elements.

N: I’m gonna - I’m just putting all three.

R: Ok.

N: I think it’s...

R: Yep.

(34:16)

N: Premeditation of muder. Severe.

R: Severe, yep, just...

N: ...I...

R: ...straight up intense...

N: ...the - the…

R: ...ideation...

N: ...only thing...

R: ...is kinda the point of the book.

N: The only thing that keeps it off of torture porn elevels is that you as a reader, the way it is described is - and the way you kind of experience it, it is definitely not advocating for it. Like...

R: ...Yeah, well...

N: ...it would be super easy to take the actual like, set up for this book and flip it to be torture porn with very little effort.

R: But it’s not. We wanna be very clear that it’s not.

N: But it’s not. It’s deliberately not, but oh boy is - is it a severe...

R: ...It’s specific...

N: ...depiction of this thing.

R: It’s specifically a lack of glorification of this...

N: ...Yes...

R: ...topic...

N: ...but it’s a very...

R: ...and then the next topic...

N: ...very, very severe lack of glorification.

R: Yep.

N: Um.

(35:05)

R: And for cycle of violence: revenge edition. Again...

N: ...Also...

R: ...severe...

N: ...severe...

R: ...with a specific move to remove glorification...

N: ...yeah...

R: ...from this thing.

N: Yeah, but...

R: ...for integral. Oh.

N: Oh, man. I just thinking about it like, for both of those really - I don’t even think you’d have to change words, I think if you just deleted like a couple sentences every page or so you would suddenly have torture porn on both topics.

R: Yep.

N: Like, it’s - it’s that - it’s so precise how close it is.

R: Mmhmm.

N: It’s deliberately not crossing that line ‘cause that’s the whole point, but it’s so, so close.

R: Yep.

(35:45)

N: Uh, why this trauma.

R: Is it integral, interchangeable or irrelevant.

N: Integral.

R: Death of family is integral. Premeditation of murder, and cycle of violence, revenge is integral. This...

N: ...This is a...

R: ...this book has...

N: ...very bare bones book.

R: It has everything it needs and very little...

N: ...And literally nothing else...

R: ...that it could have skipped.

N: Yeah.

R: Yep.

N: Yeah, this is a super, like it’s - it’s very emotionally raw and story stripped down to like bare bone components, and it has no - it - there’s nothing about this book that isn’t integral to its experience.

R: Yeah.

N: But unfortunately that does mean that from a - from a reader trauma perspective um, there’s - there’s no way to not get hit by the severity of these topics and the severity in how they are depicted.

R: Yeah, not a lot of cushion.

N: There's nothing you can skip. There's nothing you can, you know, read really quickly and move on - like there’s none of that.

R: Yeah.

(36:46)

R: For trauma being treated with care, I...

N: ...Deliberately not...

R: ...would say - yes. Deliberately not and - it’s weird because usually we think of care as like how much intentionality did they put into depicting the trauma, like there’s some overlap with that concept, here it's...

N: ...We - we have - we have a couple of different...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...definitions for care, and which one we use kind of depends on the book and the book’s goal and purpose.

R: And for this we wanna be clear, it’s very, very...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...intentional and it is intentionally not filled with emotional care.

N: Yeah.

R: The point is for you to understand how...

N: ...The point is for you to feel it, and you can't...

R: ...how traumatized it is...

N: ...feel it - the point is for it - these topics to be severe and for you as a reader to go through them as a severe topic and if these topics were treated with any - any care in our grading system at all, this book would be kinda pointless. It - it wouldn’t...

R: It wouldn’t have the same effect.

N: ...be enough emotional impact to - to matter, but...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...instead it’s not treated with care because the whole point is that you as a reader are directly in that emotional storm and you are experiencing it. Um, yeah.

R: This - this is a book about gun violence. Please take care of yourself if that’s not something you’re ready to do right now, then maybe...

N: ...It’s - it’s a...

R: ...skip this one...

N: … book about gun violence...

R: ...but...

N: ...deliberate murder and revenge.

R: Very well done, yeah.

N: Yeah, and...

R: ...Point of view...

N: ...uncertainty.

(38:18)

R: For the point of view of the trauma and the aftermath, this is all Will but...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...we hear, because of the style, like Will’s the only one where we get inside his head...

N: …Mmhmmm….

R: ...but we do have... the whole - the whole point of this book is that we get spoken to Will the perspective of these other people...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...and that makes this one a little bit more complicated to talk about for point of view, because in one...

N: ...It’s...

R: ...sense...

N: [sighs]

R: ...it’s Will’s perspective for his current trauma, but...

N: ...Mmhmm…

R: ...we’re also getting the other people’s perspective of the aftermath of their own trauma.

N: It - it has a very much of a - it - it - it has a - a - oh man, I - my brain is telling me Mr. Scrooge. What’s the actual name of that - that story?

R: What?

N: That character?

R: Oh, “Christmas Carol” and the...

N: … “Christmas Carol”...

R: ...It is Scrooge.

N: Thank you, well they did a Scrooge version.

R: They - no, they - they...

N: ...Right?

R: No, Scrooge is his name. Scrooge Mcduck is the character - yeah it’s Ebenezer Scrooge.

N: Oh, oh Ebenezer Scrooge, ok. Ebenezer Scrooge. It - it has a very uh, Ebenezer Scrooge flashback to you know, other people and - and their experiences, and you experiencing their experiences with them, feel, except instead of trying to convince a, uh, miserly hoarder to benefit other people with his wealth, uh, it’s - it’s about experiencing their death and their motivations. So - but it - it - but it very much has that like “Christmas Carol” going back and being in that thing as it’s being told to you, kind of a feel.

R: Mmhmm.

N: That’s what I - the comparison I’m...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...going for here.

R: Looking at the past to try and change his future while also talking a lot about the present. Like it has some of those...

N: ...Yes...

R: ...bones?

N: Yeah, it has that feel...

R: ...but...

N: ...of it. That like, overlapping, cycling, memory-with-present thing. No, no. Just the - just the way the ghosts work is very much the same way the ghosts work in - in a “Christmas Carol”. And it - and it a similar - it has a similar story telling, um, like story telling feel. Not - not story feel, but like story telling feel.

R: Ok, I see how you get there, I really think the elevator was a - an excellent uh, storytelling device. It was so good.

N: Oh I think that...

R: ...Yeah...

N: ...the elevator was great. I loved - the elevator is such a...

R: ...Um...

N: …[sighs] man, I’m - I’m not gonna talk about it because [laughs]...

R: ...We need a spot for favorite....

N: ...I don’t wanna ruin this book for anybody. I don’t want them to go in…

R: ...Yep…

N: ...anticipating.

(40:52)

R: Alright, for the - oh that’s right, this the spoiler free section.

N: [laughs]

R: For the aspiring writer tip, what do you have?

N: [sighs] Oof. I - so this book, if - if this book was a novel that you are meant to experience as somebody else’s story that is kinda - that you’re kind of watching or going along for the adventure as they save the world, or the horror as they get - or a horror book as they get trapped or deal with ghosts or whatever, this would actually be - this would actually be rated kind of low on our, like, ‘Is this a good book? Did this handle things well’, kinda meters. However this book has a very intentional goal. It - it comes across incredibly strongly, and it - if I’m talking to somebody about this book, I’m not gonna recommend it to them unless I know that it’s going to be - like, recommending this book is gonna come with kind of, not spoilers, but it’s gonna come with some kinda pretty heavy like - like “Hey, if this kind of a thing bothers you, then this isn’t a really good book for you.” ‘Cause it’s gonna - it’s gonna be traumatizing to read, for a lot of people for several different reasons. There’s multiple reasons why the - the sheer amount of immersion that as an audience member you kinda get in this book, could be far too much. This is kinda a rare book, where like, I’m not gonna just say, “It’s not a good book,” like there’s some books where I’m gonna look at and go, “No, those objectively have some pretty awful stuff that the book is advocating for, like I don’t recommend that book,” um, and that’s - that’s not true. I highly recommend this book.

R: Yeah.

N: But, this book would come from me with some pretty solid, pretty heavy-handed kind of - kind of warnings about it, because eh - if you’re somebody who needs all of the plot threads kind of closed off, especially ‘cause I - there are people that I know personally like this, like this is a - this is a real thing that people experience, especially if it gives you anxiety when they’re not, don’t - don’t open this book. Don’t even start it. It will be painful. If you have - if you’re somebody who has - has trauma from - from gun violence or from - from revenge killings in your past, don’t read this book. It’s gonna hurt, a lot. It’s probably gonna...

R: ...Or at least...

N: ...reopen somethings. It’s so good and it’s so immersive.

R: Or at least, be in an otherwise stable place before you do.

N: I mean, even for that matter like, it’s such tiny portion of this book, but we mentioned that there’s some self harm in here. It’s...

R: ...Mmhmm..

N: ...it’s barely even there. It’s only like - it’s only like there for like what, a couple pages or something, and the way the book is written in the poetry format, a couple pages is like almost no text, at all. And, I mean I think I said - I - don’t remember if I said this here in the wrap up, or if I said this in the - in the topic itself, but reading it makes my arms itch.

R: Yeah.

N: It’s barely there, barely brushes it, and it’s too much. [laughs]

R: Yep.

N: So, it’s - it’s a very good book, if you can handle it, [we] highly recommend it.

R: So, if you were to condense all that...

N: ...But if you start it and it hurts, back out.

R: If you were to condense all that to a writer tip?

N: A writer tip is that it’s ok to - I guess that it’s ok to inflict trauma on your readers if you have a point to doing it. Don’t do it randomly, but like, you know...

R: ...It is..

N: ...it’s not always a bad thing.

R: It’s - it is ok for books to stress out readers, and...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...that can be done on purpose for a variety of reasons, horror...

N: ...Yeah...

R: ...is an entire genre meant for that.

N: That’s true.

R: But, please be intentional...

N: ...Yeah, please don’t just be...

R: ...and...

N: ....careless.

R: Yeah.

N: Like, this book is very intentional, but...

R: ...Mmhmm...

N: ...if this book was careless about it...

R: ...It’d...

N: ...oof...

R: ...be so bad, yeah.

(44:36)

R: Uh, favorite non traumatic thing about the book.

N: Um.

R: Was there anything?

N: Nope.

R: I do actually have one thing.

N: I don’t think there was anything.

R: I actually have one thing.

N: Oh, ok.

R: Um like it’s bitter sweet but the - the - the interaction with Dani before he figures out who she is, um...

N: ...Mmmm...

R: ...was just like - was just really sweet, and even after he figures out who she is, it’s a...

N: ...I...

R: ...different kind of - of bittersweet.

N: I would argue that that is not, non traumatic but is probably as close as you’re gonna get.

R: It is as close as you’re gonna get. It is - it is a bright spot, uh.

N: Is it though?

R: In here - it’s a brighter spot in a very dark book.

N: It’s - it’s a - it’s a dim spot in a dark book. [laughs]

R: Yeah, I...

N: ...Think I - this - we’re not kidding, this is not exaggerating at all.

R: Yeah, I - I still...

N: ...This is maybe a little bit under - under emphasizing.

R: I - yeah. [aughs] It is hard to find something nontraumatic in this book, but of the things, that first interaction and then also just - I don't know, it was - not quite nontraumatic, but mostly like, interesting?

N: Mmhmm.

R: Is just the way it tracks the density of cigarette smoke in the elevator.

N: Oh yeah.

R: At all times. Constantly. It - it’s a weird way to have a connecting thread in the narrative, and it is not the only connecting thread, I wanna be clear about that, but it was an interesting connecting thread to have, um, was carefully gauging the amount of cigarette smoke and what people are or are not doing um, vis-à-vis smoking cigarettes...

N: ...Mmhmm...

R: ...in this elevator. So, that - that’s a thing. Do you have one? If you don’t have one then...

N: ...It’s [sighs] Ok, I have...

R: ...just fyi…

N: ...one but it is not the story.

R: Ok.

N: I actually as much as it is - as much as a format is - is gen - genuinely hard for my brain to stay invested in long enough to read a lot of this - there’s a whole - Robin and I have talked about this before we started recording, an like, I - there’s people in my life that know this about, but like there’s certain formats, styles of storytelling that my brain just has a hard time focusing on. Uh, I don’t really read most comics. I can’t really focus on Manga. I love a lot of different Anime. I read type-dense books because I like it, but I get very very bored, like my brain just kinda wanders off with certain things, and this particular poetry style is a - is one of those things. Uh, but looking at it from a visual art - visually artistic point of view, the way that the pages are set up is very incredibly well done, and is really interesting to look at. Looking at the way and place and spacing, and how he like chooses where different words are gonna be, and which words are gonna be there, and like, even word choice where there’s multiple sentences that - uh, or multiple ways that a sentence can be phrased, he’ll change which phrasing he uses depending on the picture he’s trying to paint on the page, and it’s just really cool as like a visual art side, I don’t know.

R: Mmhmm.

N: Which I realize is not really the book itself. Uh, but - but this is not something that like, you know this is not like a publisher’s decision. This is - this is the - the art of the book, so.

R: Yeah.

N: I think it counts.

R: Is this...

N: ...I think that’s it?

R: ...a good time to say who recommended this book to us, or are you putting that in elsewhere?

N: Uh, this is good.

R: Ok, so, uh, want to thank the very helpful librarian from Worthington Ohio, who recommended this, uh, to me back uh, in December of 2019 when we were able to go into libraries, but yeah. Uh, very helpful librarian, from Worthington Ohio. I’m so sorry I didn’t get your name, but thank you so much for helping me, and we did end up talking about it on the podcast.